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Posted: 8/25/2003 12:02:21 AM EDT
In the spirit of not wanting to rip someone off, yet still score a good deal...

How many 30 round 7.62 mags would you trade for a lniw Chinese 75 round drum?

I went shooting with a guy I've known for 20 years and he only has 2 30 round mags for his 56s underfolder and one 75 round drum he's used twice. He doesn't care for the drum and wants more 30's. I printed AIM's mag page off for him, which he was thrilled with and he asked if I'd like to buy the drum. I did tell him the going rate for the Romanian and Chinese 75 rounders and he said "Damn, I think I paid 30 bucks for this one". I told him I'd get back with him. I know he'll be buying some Polish 30's and 40's from AIM, as well as more ammo (Man it was fun shooting freshly opened Chicom steelcore from a spam can, he said he'd bought a case a week after he first bought the rifle and it had just been sitting since) so I'm contemplating this offer:

One Norinco or Polytech 30 rounder to fill the space in his original box and 4 Bulgarian 30 round waffle mags and a pouch. I'm pretty sure he'd go for that, he loved the Bulgarian 40's I took with my NHM91.

Considering neither of us paid a "premium" price for the items of trade, do you think I'm being fair or should I up my offer?
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 2:37:19 AM EDT
If he's happy and your happy with the deal, no one is getting ripped off. (IMO of course)
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 4:10:06 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 4:17:22 AM EDT
You know Campy, maybe you should start ACTING like a staff member, I'm sure everyone would appreciate that.

As far as the ethics go, so long as everyone is aware of the value of the goods being traded and nobody is misrepresenting anything, than go for it.

What Campy is trying to allude to, in a less than witty manner, is the way one board member ass-raped an uninformed seller as to the value of his preban AK by showing him the flyer for a $300 SAR. Yes, I have a problem with fraud. Just the same as I would have a problem with someone trying to show a seller an ad for $150 Chinese AR drum as indication of what a Beta C mag was worth.

In answer to your question, I would say 8 30 round mags would be a fair trade for the drum. I passed up the chance for two Chinese drums new in wrap the other week for $160. $80 seems right for new Chinese drums and Ronin45 has been selling Romanian drums for $55 NIW.
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 4:28:40 AM EDT
I'm not getting into the ethics of this discussion,but you may want to advise your friend how valuable the Chineese steel core ammo is today.He could triple his ammo supply by selling the steel core and buying Yugo or current mfg Russian.
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 4:37:41 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 4:47:48 AM EDT
Heck, it sounds very fair to me :)

Lets see here, he probably did pay something like $30 when he purchased it (if it was some time ago). He does not seem to care for it much. It is like new, but no longer so. He can get 1 Chinese mag to match his gun, and 4 Bulgarian waffle mags. The waffle mags are not exactly rare, but number way, way less than the steel ones do. I'd say the deal is more than fair amongst two friends. If he was not a friend, then I personally would start with a lower bid,....... maybe 1 chinese mag and 2 waffles, and take it from there :) Would I feel that was ripping him off?....nope :) He would get rid of the drum that he does not care much for (and paid about $30 for), and would gain 3 mags that he really likes. Lets say I paid $15 for each of the waffle mags, and $10 for the chinese, it would be like I offered him $40 for the drum.......what I would consider a fair offer.
Since it is your friend, and you are offering him 5 mags (1 chinese, 4 bulgarian), he is doing even better. Again, lets say you paid $15 for each waffle mag (work with me here fellas, I know prices will always vary), and $10 for the chinese, this means you spent $70 bucks on the stuff you are trading for the drum. I see no feeling bad on your part in this deal. He is a friend, he is probably not looking to make any profit on what he originally spent on the drum. Even so, you probably did spend more on your items, then he spent on the drum. Make the deal, and both of you should be happy :)

Most times, I find it fun to wheel and deal :)
It all comes out in the wash :)

Link Posted: 8/25/2003 4:47:50 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 4:52:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
You know Campy, maybe you should start ACTING like a staff member, I'm sure everyone would appreciate that.

i'm sorry. my personal code of ethics prohibits me from "acting".

however, my moral upbringing has permitted me a highly developed sense of humor.

for a $30 drum, i would offer $25....since it is used. i drive a hard bargain. it is part of my ethics code.

i'm thinking of selling my semi-famous s-10. current chevy flyers state the replacement cost is $15,000. i'll gladly accept $14,000. yes. it is a pre-ban s-10 with collaspible body, flash suppressing rust and cup holder mount.

we now return you to the regularly scheduled discussion of the value of a chi-com drum magazine.



OK, now that was funny... and I would love to get back to that discussion. Pity you didn't choose to start there.
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 5:36:51 AM EDT
If you showed him the value, made the offer, and he is happy, no problem.

I once made a deal for a 105mm ammo crate full of 5.56 brass for 8 U.S.G.I. 30 round mags.

I had about $3 in the deal and he knew it. He had nothing in the deal and I knew it. We both knew we were ripping eachother off, but we knew it up front about it and happy with the deal.
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 5:49:14 AM EDT
Yeah, Campy does have a good sense of humor :)

As far as the above deal......IMO.....your being fair :)

Now lets take this to another level.....lets say you get to a yard sale as the owners of the very elegant home are putting their items out. The lady of the home comes out with a painting, and your heart starts to beat a mile a minute. Why, because you are a art collector, and this painting seems to be a REAL Van Gough painting. You get closer and to the painting, and realize that you are about 99.9% sure it's real! You pick it up and ask the lady how much?....(she has yet to put prices on the items). She responds by saying, will you give me $30 for it?

Hmmmmm......what would you folks do?

Okay, let me go first :)
Campybob and I would be some guilty feeling dudes, but I may respond to the lady by saying "would you take 25 dollars?"......LOL!!!!!!

No really, I would give her the $30, and go buy myself a new house :) Don't laugh......I'm being dead serious! :)
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 6:13:35 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 6:35:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/25/2003 6:35:46 AM EDT by RotDorn]
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 7:24:02 AM EDT

What Campy is trying to allude to, in a less than witty manner, is the way one board member ass-raped an uninformed seller as to the value of his preban AK by showing him the flyer for a $300 SAR. Yes, I have a problem with fraud.


Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and consent was present between both players. Get off your preaching pedestal and let the bargain hunters do their business without the sidewalk preaching.

Truth be known, the green eyed monster in you is showing.
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 9:00:13 AM EDT
Well, I'd offer him $30 just to take it off his hands since its illegal to use on Ohio anyway if you don't have a registered machine gun.

I'll offer $20 for the S-10, its very used and the drivers side door does not open. I do not consider dukes of hazzard ingress and egress to be a value enhancing feature.
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 9:17:42 AM EDT
It doesn't matter how much you paid for something "way back when". It wouldn't matter how much you can replace something for if it's not the same thing.

Let's take Campy's S-10 so we don't have to relive the old thread.

Campy's S-10 is certainly NOT worth the replacement cost of $15,000 to me. The new ones don't have the option of rust, old parts, and extra hard miles, so comparing his S-10 to a new replacement seems to be absurd to me. Now if someone comes up as OFFERs $14,000, then Campy would be an idiot for not taking it. If the buyer wants to pay $14,000 for it fine.

Now if Campy is selling his S-10 as being brand new, same as the 2004 model and worth every dime of that $14,000 because "it's the exact same truck and that's what a new one will go for" then he's lying about the value of his truck. Anyone who's seen it will agree, and many would find it hard that some sucker would be that stupid, but let's say he sells it online. If he uses a picture and description of a brand new 2004 S-10 to prepresent his S-10 then he's lying and MISREPRESENTING the item for sale. Maybe Campy thinks it's OK because the price of bread in Liberia is 4 loaves=one AK. I don't know what the price of anything outside the market you're working in matters, or what the value of bread in Liberia matter to anyone in the US buying an S-10, but he seems to lean on that argument a bunch.

Anyway, if Campy sells his S-10 for what it is (regardless of what he sells it for) that's fine. If he sells it AS SOMETHING IT'S NOT, then that's wrong.

Now, let's say Campy finds a brand new S-10 in a barn in that wet hellhole known as Ohio. The lady want's $1000 for it. Is Campy required to pay the $14,000 fair market value? No, he's not. It's not really his business what she want's for it, or whay she want's so little. If he brings it up that's fine as well, but it could have been her ex-husband's that ran off with the milkmaid, or her dead son KIA in Iraq and just wants it gone, or whatever reason. A good deal is fine as long as no one is lying about things.

Now let's say Campy want's a better deal than $1000 for a brand new S-10 (this is Campy afterall, and the price of an AK in Afghanistan is $50, though I admit I still don't see what that has to do with anything in the real world). So he shows her the calssified ad for his S-10 he's selling for $50 (which may or may not be fair market value), tells her he's seen it and that's exactly what she has and what her truck is worth, then that's different. He's lying in order to obtain a finacial gain. Once someone starts lying about what an item is, then the line is crossed between fair dealing and cheating someone.

I know Campy will say his truck is worth so many bags of rice in China, or whatever. Well, that's China not the USA here and now. Even if a new truck is only worth four bags of rice in China it doesn't releive a person of the responsibility of acting fair. It doesn't mean he can't take five bags for it, or has to reimburse a bag to anyone who paid five. It does mean that he can't lie about what his truck is, or how good of shape it is in to get five bags.

It doesn't matter that other people are selling things at gunshows or on the net fraudulantly. That still doesn't make it right.

It's not what the price is, or how much the market is. What matters is HOW it is done.

Ross
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 9:26:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By WildWes:
In the spirit of not wanting to rip someone off, yet still score a good deal...

How many 30 round 7.62 mags would you trade for a lniw Chinese 75 round drum?

I went shooting with a guy I've known for 20 years and he only has 2 30 round mags for his 56s underfolder and one 75 round drum he's used twice. He doesn't care for the drum and wants more 30's. I printed AIM's mag page off for him, which he was thrilled with and he asked if I'd like to buy the drum. I did tell him the going rate for the Romanian and Chinese 75 rounders and he said "Damn, I think I paid 30 bucks for this one". I told him I'd get back with him. I know he'll be buying some Polish 30's and 40's from AIM, as well as more ammo (Man it was fun shooting freshly opened Chicom steelcore from a spam can, he said he'd bought a case a week after he first bought the rifle and it had just been sitting since) so I'm contemplating this offer:

One Norinco or Polytech 30 rounder to fill the space in his original box and 4 Bulgarian 30 round waffle mags and a pouch. I'm pretty sure he'd go for that, he loved the Bulgarian 40's I took with my NHM91.

Considering neither of us paid a "premium" price for the items of trade, do you think I'm being fair or should I up my offer?



Since you told him what his drum is worth, whatever he wants for it is fine. If you had shown him an ad for a 40rd mag, told him that's what he had (i.e. told him he had an item that he actually didn't have in order to convince the guy it was not worth as much as it was) and that's what it's worth, and that's what you'd give him, then I'd say you were wrong.

As long as you both know what's going on and neither of you are lying, the actual price of what you paid, or will pay is immaterial. If no one's lying, then if you're both happy, fine.

Ross
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 9:43:38 AM EDT
Green with envy? I would be if the deal was legitimate. However, I personally could not live with myself if that is how I had to obtain said rifle for said price. So no, I'm not jealous. Maybe green as in the color I turn before I projectile vomit.

Second, I'd like to point out that it was Campy, and not I who decided to rehash the whole ethical debate in this thread. And it was he, and not I, who felt the need to resort to profanity in what was clearly a reference to me.

I think some of you need to brush up on what capitalism is. At its very basic level it is what a willing buyer and a willing seller are able to arrive at. You might argue that the seller was willing to let the pre-ban AK go for $300. Such an assumption would be incorrect.

A key foundation for being a willing participant in a transaction is that both parties must be fully informed. This was not the case here. In this instance the buyer knew what the good was. He then misrepresented what the seller had and lowballed him under false pretences. In no way, shape or form was this an informed transaction. The buyer took advantage of the lack of knowledge to perpetrate a fraud. That is what I had a problem with.

Now, let's change a couple of the circumstances of the transaction. The seller has this pre-ban AK, he is need of raising some cash or maybe he just doesn't want it anymore. Along comes the buyer and he says he is interested and asks how much. Seller asks what do you think its worth? Buyer says well it could probably fetch $600-$700 if you wanted to take the time to list it for sale, and I could buy this variant for $300... the bayonet and folding stock mean nothing to me. However, if you want to sell it for $300 I'll take it. Seller says, well I only paid $200 for it and it is used, so yes, I'll take $300 for it.

In that scenario the rifle still sells for $300 but it was done honestly and not under false pretenses. I never said someone should pay market if it is available for less, the issue is how you obtain for less. Please refer to the original thread in which I described how I obtained a digital camera for less than MSRP, but paid the asking price for it.

BTW, anybody who thinks that disclosure is not an obligation under a capitalist theory might do themselves well to look at corporate America. Even with all of their shady dealings, when one company seeks to make an acquisition from another, when investors seek to sink large amounts of capital into a business, or when one business buys out another there is a legal vehicle known as "Due Dilligence" in which each side must be forthcoming as to the value of assets and any liabilities. This is to ensure that both parties are fully informed and can give proper consent to a transaction.

My problem with the dispute in question is that only one party had full knowledge and he used false information to secure personal gain. If that sits ok with your sense of right and wrong, that's alright by me. I just don't know how anybody could place trust in you if that is your stated belief.
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 10:05:10 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 10:18:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RotDorn:

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
I think some of you need to brush up on what capitalism is.



I dunno, I live in a larger than average home on a golf course, have 2 kids in private schools, nice cars, all the toys a guy could want. I believe I have a fair idea what capitalism is.

Now, if somebody was employed by the "state", paid less than what the fair market would bear, struggle to make ends meet. Complain about what others have, I would think that person to be more socialist than capitalist.



Ahhhhh, but if it was his choice to be employed by the state and if it was a strategy to position himself for future opportunities than it would be capitalism. Once again, you are ignoring the key facet of informed consent.

I do not have the job I do because I lack other options, as in the "state" has told me that I will work at this job and I have no recourse. I work this job because by doing so I have the opportunity to network and establish a foundation for future endeavors, as well as have the opportunity to shape public policy - in this case a pro-business, de-regulated and less taxed business climate. Anyway, I digress, and you have failed to address the key issue whether it is alright to lie for your personal benefit.

And of course I want things that others have, that is one of the driving principles behind capitalism. Contrary to what some people would have you believe, I am a dyed in the wool conservative capitalist. I do however feel there is a right way and a wrong way to prosper, and to intentionally do it at somebody else's expense through deceipt is an unacceptable way to achieve it.
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 10:28:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/25/2003 10:36:55 AM EDT by CAMPYBOB]
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 12:06:22 PM EDT
Interesting... at no time did the buyer offer any of these details in his several posts. Instead he chose to share them with you and you alone Campy. He had ample opportunity to do that, he chose not to. In fact he continued to engage in the debate about refusing to pay artifically high prices.

If he was such a good friend, why the need to produce the ad? I trust my friends, they aren't the type of people to scam me. If they said this is what its worth, I would take them at face value. They certainly wouldn't try to show me a picture for a completely different rifle and attempt to use it as a comparisson.

I'm wondering why in his original post, before any of us questioned him, he didn't just say he bought it from a friend. My that would have clarified things and avoided debate. I'm guessing more than anything else it was an attempt to back-peddle after he took a huge ration of crap for the way he acquired the rifle.

Once again, nobody here is saying you shouldn't find a deal. Nobody is saying you have to pay the market. The point made, which you poorly attempt to dismiss as "self-righteousness," is that it is not ethical to misrepresent something to another in an attempt to reap a financial benefit.

Capitalism according to Campy:

An older brother happens upon his younger brother and asks him what's in his piggy bank. The younger brother proudly says 5 dimes. Seeing his chance, the older brother says to his unknowing sibling that he has 6 nickles... which is more than 5 dimes. But since he loves him, he'll trade his 6 nickles for his little brother's 5 dimes. They trade. Older brother walks away all smug and the little brother thinks the older brother was being loving.

Now the older brother comes across his little sister and asks what is in her piggy bank. She proudly says 4 quarters! Well he sees opportunity again and comments that he has 5 dimes... and 5 is more than 4! She frowns, and seeing the opening he says, because I love you, I'll trade my 5 dimes for your 4 quarters. She beams a smile and says thank you and trades.

Next he comes across his next door neighbor who is a little slow. He asks him where he is going and he announces to the store to buy baseball cards. He just got his allowance, 3 fifty cent pieces and he has enough to buy three packs. Poor kid equates each coin with a pack of cards. So the little capitalist says, you know, I have 4 quarters, if you give me your 3 fifty cent pieces I'll give you my 4 quarters and you'll have more coins to buy cards with. The slow kid thinks long and hard and it seems to make sense, so he agrees.

Last, he runs into his cousin who just had her birthday. She is two and grandma gave her 2 one dollar bills as a present. This poor child has no concept of money, but her cousin shows her 3 shiny silver circles and offers to trade for her two yucky green pieces of paper... and she agrees.

Moral of the story... the little capitalist can turn 30 cents into 2 dollars by telling a couple of lies and playing on the ignorance of those less knowledgeable then him.
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 12:08:53 PM EDT
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