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Posted: 5/15/2015 11:16:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/8/2016 1:57:26 AM EDT by HendersonDefense]
I've read a couple threads about "abusing" AK's and I haven't seen anything that's "real world" abuse. At our range, we treat each weapon the best we can but the sheer volume of rounds we put through our full-auto AK's (and all other weapons) unfortunately leaves them cracked, split, bulged and kaboomed. Each weapon is headspaced at every cleaning, documenting in it's own maintenance log the headspace and what or if any parts were replaced.

The one thing I can say about the AK's is that they hold up MUCH BETTER than the RPD's. I thought for sure that RPD's would last so much longer because of the milled receivers but the receivers only last about half the life (if that) of a Romanian WASR.

This is about 30 days (at most) of steel casing and approximately 80% of it is from AK usage. The other brass is from RPD's or PKM's.

V/R

Link Posted: 5/16/2015 12:03:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/16/2015 12:04:18 AM EDT by wav3form]
The stamped receivers hold up better than the milled? Interesting. Impressive steel collection.
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 12:13:24 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By wav3form:
The stamped receivers hold up better than the milled? Interesting. Impressive steel collection.
View Quote


Well, to be fair, the Century milled C39 receivers have lasted but all of the barrels lost their headspace. They were on the line for quite some time but now we have three waiting to be repaired sitting in a weapons rack. I initially was suspect of the Century milled AK receivers but they have lasted. The barrels are from the initial release of C39's before chrome-lining was offered. I haven't paid much attention about the choices now but I did see they offer them with chrome-line barrels now.

V/R
Ron
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 12:14:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
The one thing I can say about the AK's is that they hold up MUCH BETTER than the RPD's. I thought for sure that RPD's would last so much longer because of the milled receivers but the receivers only last about half the life (if that) of a Romanian WASR.
View Quote

What part of the receivers wear out? Seems like that would be the last thing to wear out, milled or stamped.
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 12:20:49 AM EDT
What variants do you test? Can you rate them?
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 12:34:53 AM EDT
Nice pile of steel.

Haven't seen you guys post over here in quite some time, good to see you back.
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 12:35:20 AM EDT
Who makes the best barrels? By best I mean longest lasting.
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 1:09:05 AM EDT
Here are some answers to the questions...


- Every single stamped receiver has suffered from a cracked trunion. This includes Saiga, Arsenal (Bulgarian), Norinco (Chinese), Arsenal (Russian stamped), WASR, Hungarian, Polish (vintage kits), Yugo (vintage and PAP-series) and new Polish (from Royal Tiger imports).

- We have every type of AK available to shoot except for Cuban, Vietnamese or North Korean.

- US (Century), Bulgarian and Chinese milled receivers have yet to fail.

- Stamped receivers split at the angle of the upper rail and the side wall. N-PAP's have literally cracked in have perpendicular the length of the rifle. The receivers cracked just posterior the front trunion (between center bushing and the trunion).

- We have yet to shoot out a factory WASR barrel. The barrels on three of our C39's started to keyhole and were pulled.

- We have WASR's on the line that have last OVER two and half years and the barrels are NOT shot out and they continue to run. We installed new bolts to bring headspace back up but they keep running.

- The Draco-C's that we converted over three years ago are finally down to the last unit. Most have cracked trunions but one of the barrels right past the gas block literally cracked off. The portion of the barrel with the threads cracked right off while shooting. I will see if I still have pics on my phone.

V/R
Ron
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 1:11:03 AM EDT
After how many rounds do they usually go to shit?

Which FA weapon is typically the most reliable over time and round count?

What is the most popular rental?
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 1:31:15 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Mosin762:
After how many rounds do they usually go to shit?

Which FA weapon is typically the most reliable over time and round count?

What is the most popular rental?
View Quote


- This may sound crazy but it's fair to say that they finally suffer a catastrophic failure (cracked trunion) at 80,000-100,000 rounds. Also, we have WASR's that have suffered a catastrophic failure and we just pull out the old trunion and barrel, grab one from a parts kit, re-rivet, re-barrel and get them up and running.

- The AK is the most reliable but after seeing how many have broke over the last two and half years on the range, it's not the indestructible weapon everybody talks about (and I always thought it was). What makes is reliable is it's simplicity. My guys clean/service 4-5 AK's for every M4 or MP5. The Uzi it's just as simple but you wouldn't believe how often components of the top cover fail. We purchased 75 kits about a year ago and we have gone through so many top covers. We will lose an extractor here and there but not often enough to complain about.

- The three most popular rentals are the AK47, MP5 and Uzi. People want to shoot the AK because they are so popular from the news and movies but then want to shoot the Uzi because of the name and then finally shoot the MP5 because it's so smooth and no recoil.

V/R
Ron

Link Posted: 5/16/2015 1:31:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/16/2015 1:38:20 AM EDT by wav3form]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
Here are some answers to the questions...


- Every single stamped receiver has suffered from a cracked trunion. This includes Saiga, Arsenal (Bulgarian), Norinco (Chinese), Arsenal (Russian stamped), WASR, Hungarian, Polish (vintage kits), Yugo (vintage and PAP-series) and new Polish (from Royal Tiger imports).

- We have every type of AK available to shoot except for Cuban, Vietnamese or North Korean.

- US (Century), Bulgarian and Chinese milled receivers have yet to fail.

- Stamped receivers split at the angle of the upper rail and the side wall. N-PAP's have literally cracked in have perpendicular the length of the rifle. The receivers cracked just posterior the front trunion (between center bushing and the trunion).

- We have yet to shoot out a factory WASR barrel. The barrels on three of our C39's started to keyhole and were pulled.

- We have WASR's on the line that have last OVER two and half years and the barrels are NOT shot out and they continue to run. We installed new bolts to bring headspace back up but they keep running.

- The Draco-C's that we converted over three years ago are finally down to the last unit. Most have cracked trunions but one of the barrels right past the gas block literally cracked off. The portion of the barrel with the threads cracked right off while shooting. I will see if I still have pics on my phone.

V/R
Ron
View Quote


You said the milled RPD guns failed before the stamped guns earlier.
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 1:33:37 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By wav3form:

You said the milled guns failed before the stamped guns earlier.
View Quote


I meant the milled RPD's failed before the stamped AK's. I always expected the RPD to be such a stronger weapon considering it's the same caliber as the AK and much thicker receiver.

V/R
Ron
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 1:36:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/16/2015 1:36:56 AM EDT by mancat]
I would like to know more about how the trunnions typically crack, if there is a pattern to it.

I used to read stories about early Type 2/3 milled receivers sometimes cracking locking lugs due to fatigue, which was supposed to be an improvement that was a result of the stamped receiver flex and isolation of the breech block... Supposedly heat treating on those receivers were poor. Good to know the modern production receivers don't have that problem.

When youy say the barrels are losing headspace, is this due to wear on trunnion/bolt locking contact surfaces, or is the barrel gradually egging the barrel pin channel with use and allowing it to move?

High round count issues are always interesting, especially with this thread going on that basically claims most AKs will fall apart in a couple thousand rounds.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1749140_.html&r=53613467
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 1:39:31 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:


I meant the milled RPD's failed before the stamped AK's. I always expected the RPD to be such a stronger weapon considering it's the same caliber as the AK and much thicker receiver.

V/R
Ron
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
Originally Posted By wav3form:

You said the milled guns failed before the stamped guns earlier.


I meant the milled RPD's failed before the stamped AK's. I always expected the RPD to be such a stronger weapon considering it's the same caliber as the AK and much thicker receiver.

V/R
Ron


Ah ok I gotcha. Just the RPDs failed?
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 1:42:39 AM EDT
Here are some picks of the failures that are pretty typical. I apologize for the pics but they are from my phone and it was just so we could show others in the shop what happened.

This is where the trunions crack. The area of the locking lug will bulge right out when it cracks. The sheet metal never cracks or snaps, it just bends with the trunion.




You can see the crack running along the angle of the receiver bend for the top rail. This is pretty common on high count receivers. We have just tig'ed them back up and they will continue to function properly.




Here's the barrel that literally cracked off while firing. This is a Draco-C unit and I am sure it would still function but we can't take any chances.

Link Posted: 5/16/2015 1:54:23 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mancat:
I would like to know more about how the trunnions typically crack, if there is a pattern to it.

I used to read stories about early Type 2/3 milled receivers sometimes cracking locking lugs due to fatigue, which was supposed to be an improvement that was a result of the stamped receiver flex and isolation of the breech block... Supposedly heat treating on those receivers were poor. Good to know the modern production receivers don't have that problem.

When youy say the barrels are losing headspace, is this due to wear on trunnion/bolt locking contact surfaces, or is the barrel gradually egging the barrel pin channel with use and allowing it to move?

High round count issues are always interesting, especially with this thread going on that basically claims most AKs will fall apart in a couple thousand rounds.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1749140_.html&r=53613467
View Quote


I am not the expert when it comes to issues of headspace but I believe it's due to wear on the bolt locking surfaces and the barrel face. When the headspace gets towards the acceptable level, the armorers will swap bolts until they get good headspace. The milled C39's that have excessive headspace couldn't be "fixed" by installing new bolts. They are going to try and press the barrel in slightly (and I mean the armorers pressing it 1000th's of inch) and oversizing the barrel pin on one C39 and see what happens.

V/R
Ron
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 2:23:39 AM EDT
Good stuff, thanks for taking the time to answer some questions. Kinda hard to get this kind of feedback on such high round count performance.
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 2:38:19 AM EDT
Someone with more patience should start a running tally of parts breakage and approx round counts.

Then tack the thread.
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 3:04:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/16/2015 3:09:31 AM EDT by HendersonDefense]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By azoutdoorsman:
Someone with more patience should start a running tally of parts breakage and approx round counts.

Then tack the thread.
View Quote


That's something we've talked about in the shop. Some of the other guys have kept a box of all the broken parts that one would never expect to break. Slant brakes splitting in half, gas pistons snapping at the base where they screw into the carrier, spot welds failing on the lower rails, lugs shearing off the bolts and carrier bodies cracking.

As for AK-74's, the thin bolt "stem" has cracked on various bolts and cracked trunions.

V/R
Ron
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 3:57:55 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:


That's something we've talked about in the shop. Some of the other guys have kept a box of all the broken parts that one would never expect to break. Slant brakes splitting in half, gas pistons snapping at the base where they screw into the carrier, spot welds failing on the lower rails, lugs shearing off the bolts and carrier bodies cracking.

As for AK-74's, the thin bolt "stem" has cracked on various bolts and cracked trunions.

V/R
Ron
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
Originally Posted By azoutdoorsman:
Someone with more patience should start a running tally of parts breakage and approx round counts.

Then tack the thread.


That's something we've talked about in the shop. Some of the other guys have kept a box of all the broken parts that one would never expect to break. Slant brakes splitting in half, gas pistons snapping at the base where they screw into the carrier, spot welds failing on the lower rails, lugs shearing off the bolts and carrier bodies cracking.

As for AK-74's, the thin bolt "stem" has cracked on various bolts and cracked trunions.

V/R
Ron

How is reliability in between parts failures?
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 5:13:44 AM EDT
Very informative.
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 8:38:35 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mancat:
I would like to know more about how the trunnions typically crack, if there is a pattern to it.

I used to read stories about early Type 2/3 milled receivers sometimes cracking locking lugs due to fatigue, which was supposed to be an improvement that was a result of the stamped receiver flex and isolation of the breech block... Supposedly heat treating on those receivers were poor. Good to know the modern production receivers don't have that problem.

When youy say the barrels are losing headspace, is this due to wear on trunnion/bolt locking contact surfaces, or is the barrel gradually egging the barrel pin channel with use and allowing it to move?

High round count issues are always interesting, especially with this thread going on that basically claims most AKs will fall apart in a couple thousand rounds.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1749140_.html&r=53613467
View Quote


You might be interested to know that the man who started the great AFRCOM GD AKs-shoot-themselves-apart-myth once belonged to a different website which is devoted to AKs.
He posted pictures of indigenous people firing AKs. Those pictures included a Type 1, several type 2s and AKMs. The "newest" weapon was a 74 ... which had no finish. All were in working order.

I also note that no one in GD who claims that AKs shoot themselves apart has managed to capture a photo of even one broken weapon. I guess they move too fast when wounded.

OTOH you might want to look at some credible data like the tests conducted by the Polish military with the "Tantal". IIRC the test weapons lasted 15,000 to 20,000 shots - which included launching grenades.
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 9:13:04 AM EDT
Does the nature of the stamped guns be that the receiver flexes and gives as to its ability to take more than the Milled receivers not giving?
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 9:45:03 AM EDT
In speaking to variations do you have any DDR guns online?

If so how have they held up?
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 10:48:26 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:


- This may sound crazy but it's fair to say that they finally suffer a catastrophic failure (cracked trunion) at 80,000-100,000 rounds. Also, we have WASR's that have suffered a catastrophic failure and we just pull out the old trunion and barrel, grab one from a parts kit, re-rivet, re-barrel and get them up and running.

- The AK is the most reliable but after seeing how many have broke over the last two and half years on the range, it's not the indestructible weapon everybody talks about (and I always thought it was). What makes is reliable is it's simplicity. My guys clean/service 4-5 AK's for every M4 or MP5. The Uzi it's just as simple but you wouldn't believe how often components of the top cover fail. We purchased 75 kits about a year ago and we have gone through so many top covers. We will lose an extractor here and there but not often enough to complain about.

- The three most popular rentals are the AK47, MP5 and Uzi. People want to shoot the AK because they are so popular from the news and movies but then want to shoot the Uzi because of the name and then finally shoot the MP5 because it's so smooth and no recoil.

V/R
Ron

View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
Originally Posted By Mosin762:
After how many rounds do they usually go to shit?

Which FA weapon is typically the most reliable over time and round count?

What is the most popular rental?


- This may sound crazy but it's fair to say that they finally suffer a catastrophic failure (cracked trunion) at 80,000-100,000 rounds. Also, we have WASR's that have suffered a catastrophic failure and we just pull out the old trunion and barrel, grab one from a parts kit, re-rivet, re-barrel and get them up and running.

- The AK is the most reliable but after seeing how many have broke over the last two and half years on the range, it's not the indestructible weapon everybody talks about (and I always thought it was). What makes is reliable is it's simplicity. My guys clean/service 4-5 AK's for every M4 or MP5. The Uzi it's just as simple but you wouldn't believe how often components of the top cover fail. We purchased 75 kits about a year ago and we have gone through so many top covers. We will lose an extractor here and there but not often enough to complain about.

- The three most popular rentals are the AK47, MP5 and Uzi. People want to shoot the AK because they are so popular from the news and movies but then want to shoot the Uzi because of the name and then finally shoot the MP5 because it's so smooth and no recoil.

V/R
Ron



Sort of off topic but how have the MP5's held up? Our's were service queens after 15,000-20,000 rounds but the sample size was two so.....
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 10:50:23 AM EDT
Thanks for posting this, HD. It's rare that we can see what true high round count guns go through.
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 11:28:09 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Finslayer83:
In speaking to variations do you have any DDR guns online?

If so how have they held up?
View Quote


The only factory DDR guns we have are the three full-auto MPi-69's chambered in .22LR. We've had them on the line EVERY SINGLE DAY (except for Christmas) over the last two and half years and they continue to run flawlessly. We've only lost a few extractors and spring along the way and changed out the recoil springs just as a preventative maintenance (they didn't fail). The magazine springs have been changed at least twice since opening but other than that, those weapons have unbelievable.

V/R
Ron
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 11:28:31 AM EDT
I doubt I'll ever put 80-100K rounds through any of my guns. If that's the typical breaking point I think I'll be okay.
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 11:29:11 AM EDT
Have you tested Veprs? If so, how do they hold up?
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 11:39:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/16/2015 12:06:49 PM EDT by HendersonDefense]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Blofeld:

Sort of off topic but how have the MP5's held up? Our's were service queens after 15,000-20,000 rounds but the sample size was two so.....
View Quote


We have MP5's that have well over 500,000 rounds through them. The receivers crack at the fold/pinch point where the trunion and internal rail meet. We go through extractor springs like you wouldn't believe. When they start to chug, we install over-size rollers (I think they do this twice) and when they start to chug again, we install a new barrel. We've never had a catastrophic issue with a MP5. Barrels either start to key hole and we replace them or the bolt gap is so so far gone and the barrel gets replaced. Extractors and firing pins will break every now and then but they are pretty damn reliable. The top "tube" portion of the bolt carrier will crack right at the point where it hangs over the main body (I believe there are few broken carries on a bench) but we reweld them and put them back in service. We also tig the areas of the receiver where they crack but it's the same place where the factory puts a small amount of tig weld.

An example of use.... last Saturday alone, we went through 14,000 rounds of 9mm. Not all of it was through MP5's (9mm M16's, Uzi's, Glock's, Sig's, etc) but figure close to half of that goes through the MP5's.

V/R
Ron
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 11:42:44 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By merdenom5:
Have you tested Veprs? If so, how do they hold up?
View Quote


We haven't tested any VEPR's. The only Russian AK's we have are some Saiga's that I converted back to a military configuration about 3-4 years ago. We have customers from around the world come in and they ONLY WANT TO SHOOT A RUSSIAN Kalashnikov. They want to see the receiver and verify that it was made in Russia and they are happy as can be.

The only reason we haven't used VEPR's is because the WASR's have been so reliable there's never been a reason to spend more money on the VEPR and then have to bring it back to a military configuration.

V/R
Ron
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 11:57:17 AM EDT
That's impressive to see.

Thank you for posting that information.
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 12:27:17 PM EDT
Do you guys do anything to the gas piston on the WASR rifles? Century screws them in tight so there is no wobble at all then welds the retainer pins in and I was wondering if that had any adverse effects with the high firing schedule your rifles see.
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 1:01:01 PM EDT
It looks like your WASR is full auto? Can't tell if that's the bare Y stamp or there is a third pin there.
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 1:04:30 PM EDT
Hey Ron, I appreciate your stories and input in other threads! You mentioned that the n-paps were cracking much earlier than other guns like wasrs. Do you employ opaps also? If so, how did they fare? How long did the npaps last before being deadlined? Did the gunsmiths try any mods to make the rifles run better like new recoil springs? There is some question in the yugo specific forums around the net about some quality issues prevalent in these rifles. It seems it could be a heat treat issue or an issue like a short recoil spring in these rifles.
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 1:05:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/16/2015 1:13:06 PM EDT by ratfink57]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mancat:
It looks like your WASR is full auto? Can't tell if that's the bare Y stamp or there is a third pin there.
View Quote

There all converted to full auto rental guns.

Tip of safety sear circled in red.
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 1:32:36 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By riceshooter:
Hey Ron, I appreciate your stories and input in other threads! You mentioned that the n-paps were cracking much earlier than other guns like wasrs. Do you employ opaps also? If so, how did they fare? How long did the npaps last before being deadlined? Did the gunsmiths try any mods to make the rifles run better like new recoil springs? There is some question in the yugo specific forums around the net about some quality issues prevalent in these rifles. It seems it could be a heat treat issue or an issue like a short recoil spring in these rifles.
View Quote


I posted quite a bit of information regarding our experiences with the N-PAP on the AOUL 47-74's Facebook page but I can't seem to find it.

We only used the N-PAP's on the range and they failed miserably in a short amount of time. It appears, in my opinion, that the receivers were not heat-treated correctly and they cracked. The receiver cracked vertically between the trunion and center bushing. I had one of my staff with me when I was posting on the Facebook post and he was helping me remember all the issues we had with them. We actually rewelded the first one and thought it was a fluke but another receiver soon cracked and they found a stress crack upon further inspection of another. We destroyed the receivers (and removed them from the NFA Registry) and sold them off as parts kits. They were good looking rifles but not worth the liability of keeping them on the line.

V/R
Ron
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 2:55:20 PM EDT
Would it be possible for you guys to post the serial numbers of the failed NPAP rifles? I think some people are starting to wonder if this was a batch issue, or an issue that affected all Serbian receivers. The guys at AK Operators Union posted the serial of the failed NPAP they tested, it may be a good idea to start collecting them to see how close they are in series.
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 2:58:51 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ratfink57:
Good stuff, thanks for taking the time to answer some questions. Kinda hard to get this kind of feedback on such high round count performance.
View Quote


Same here Ron. I think I speak for everyone when I say thank you for this type of very specific contribution. Like ratfink57 above said. It's very hard to receive this kind of high round count info from anywhere.

Thanks for sharing,

openbolt
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 3:12:23 PM EDT
Have you ever tried a recoil buffer? I wonder if they actually work.
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 3:37:04 PM EDT
Awesome info all of it, seems like good ol' WASR FTW, lol. Thanks so much for posting HD, this is good stuff. Sorry to hear about the Npap's and wondering if the other Serb guns are similarly troubled?

Would love to see how the Vepr holds up, it's mega-tough and I couldn't help but think it would really shine.
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 4:05:56 PM EDT
Thanks for answering my question about how the receivers fail.

I'd be interested to hear what you think of this claim, posted about your OP in another thread:

Another thing about the full auto rental range.

It's one thing to have people come in and rent a mag or two and dump them. Very few assault rifles will malf in that type of shooting.

Take the same gun through a course of fire on semi auto throughout the day, heating it up, cooling it, heating...cooling, heating..cooling, outside in the conditions, whether they be sand, dust, rain, mud, snow and ice, and you start to see problems.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1749140_Inside_The_AK_74___LV_Video.html&page=5
View Quote

Link Posted: 5/16/2015 4:10:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/16/2015 4:11:36 PM EDT by mancat]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Dragynn:
Awesome info all of it, seems like good ol' WASR FTW, lol. Thanks so much for posting HD, this is good stuff. Sorry to hear about the Npap's and wondering if the other Serb guns are similarly troubled?

Would love to see how the Vepr holds up, it's mega-tough and I couldn't help but think it would really shine.
View Quote


As someone who owns an AES-10B I'm sort of curious how any of the RPK based rifles hold up. The whole thing being seriously overbuilt, I wonder if the same trunnion failures happen.

It is funny to see the lowly Romanians being the battle horses of the group, especially the barrels.
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 4:17:10 PM EDT
Here's a pic that demonstrates where we initially welded the receiver. I thought it was just a hot round that caused it to crack. There were no signs of over pressure or burning on the bolt, carrier or trunion area but after running the range for the last two and half years, nothing will surprise you. We used the plasma cutter to demil the weapon before removing it from the NFA registry.

After the other N-PAP's had issues we pulled them all. I am in no way saying that all Serbian weapons are prone to this or the older Yugos are of the same quality. I just know what happened to our rifles and we can't risk the liability of a catastrophic failure on the range. I know Century imports them and don't cast any fault on them either because all of the WASR's we get from them have all been home-run's.

If any of you guys are ever in Vegas and want to see the backside of the operation here at Battlefield Vegas, email me at RCheney@BattlefieldVegas.com. We've brought back many Arfcommers for a tour of the back and how we keep this play moving.



V/R
Ron
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 4:27:18 PM EDT
Damn, makes we want to buy another WASR.
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 4:43:08 PM EDT
Slightly off topic but here are pics of three weapon lockers that are filled with issues. It's not just related to AK's because the work never ends. We are shooting close 400,000 rounds on the range monthly right now and I don't think ANY weapon other than our M-134 miniguns were meant to throw that much lead down range so quickly. We have three M-134's just to make sure if one goes down, we have a back-up and then another back-up.

You can see a Chinese NDM-86 (Dragunov) that's on it's last leg and there's nothing we can do about it because parts don't exist. It will make a nice wall hanger





Link Posted: 5/16/2015 5:08:27 PM EDT
Very cool OP.
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 5:17:28 PM EDT
i forgot to ask, any testing on century receivers such as the ones on yugo m70ab1 or 2?
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 5:41:56 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:


That's something we've talked about in the shop. Some of the other guys have kept a box of all the broken parts that one would never expect to break. Slant brakes splitting in half, gas pistons snapping at the base where they screw into the carrier, spot welds failing on the lower rails, lugs shearing off the bolts and carrier bodies cracking.

As for AK-74's, the thin bolt "stem" has cracked on various bolts and cracked trunions.

V/R
Ron
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Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
Originally Posted By azoutdoorsman:
Someone with more patience should start a running tally of parts breakage and approx round counts.

Then tack the thread.


That's something we've talked about in the shop. Some of the other guys have kept a box of all the broken parts that one would never expect to break. Slant brakes splitting in half, gas pistons snapping at the base where they screw into the carrier, spot welds failing on the lower rails, lugs shearing off the bolts and carrier bodies cracking.

As for AK-74's, the thin bolt "stem" has cracked on various bolts and cracked trunions.

V/R
Ron
If you posted the part, gun model, and approx round count on the part, I'm sure someone would keep a running spreadsheet.
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 9:20:18 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By AEnemaBay:
Thanks for posting this, HD. It's rare that we can see what true high round count guns go through.
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I'll second that. This thread has been a great read. HD, thanks for sharing. Some very cool info.
Link Posted: 5/16/2015 9:52:06 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:


The only factory DDR guns we have are the three full-auto MPi-69's chambered in .22LR. We've had them on the line EVERY SINGLE DAY (except for Christmas) over the last two and half years and they continue to run flawlessly. We've only lost a few extractors and spring along the way and changed out the recoil springs just as a preventative maintenance (they didn't fail). The magazine springs have been changed at least twice since opening but other than that, those weapons have unbelievable.

V/R
Ron
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Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
Originally Posted By Finslayer83:
In speaking to variations do you have any DDR guns online?

If so how have they held up?


The only factory DDR guns we have are the three full-auto MPi-69's chambered in .22LR. We've had them on the line EVERY SINGLE DAY (except for Christmas) over the last two and half years and they continue to run flawlessly. We've only lost a few extractors and spring along the way and changed out the recoil springs just as a preventative maintenance (they didn't fail). The magazine springs have been changed at least twice since opening but other than that, those weapons have unbelievable.

V/R
Ron


would you say similar quality would apply to the DDR AKM & AK74 variants - our would they show similar failures in your opinion?
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