Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
Posted: 9/16/2003 7:33:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/16/2003 7:33:44 AM EDT by wyv3rn]
I am looking for a reduced recoil 2 3/4" 12-guage buck load. Overpenetration is a concern. I want the smallest diameter shot that I can get that will consistently have EVERY "BB" penetrating roughly 12-18 inches. Unfortunately there just isn't much data made available on 12-guage reduced recoil round penetration that I can find. Can anyone help me please?

Also, I've heard that "reduced recoil" loads will penetrate more and I've heard they will penetrate less, which one is it?
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 7:49:39 AM EDT
Federal Tactical in 00 seems to be a favorite with the reduced recoil crowd. I use Federal Premium 00 mags myself.
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 10:41:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/16/2003 10:45:22 AM EDT by Charging_Handle]
Originally Posted By knightsar: I would try to stay with #4 buck shot it is the smallist shot that I feel is going to work out to a 30 yards. But if over penetration is bothering you use BB or #2 bird shot at 20 ft or less it is very lethal.
View Quote
The smallest shot size that will give adequate penetration to assure rapid incapacitation from the 12 gauge is #1 buck. And there are some circumstances where even the #1 buck may not even penetrate to 12-18". I strongly disagree with using ANY birdshot for home defense. Many birdshot loads will not offer more than 4" of penetration. This is not even ideal for the best case scenarios where shots can be fired directly into the chest. It is even worse on shots at odd angles. There have been many circumstances where birdshot has failed to stop. Your goal is to stop the person, not inflict a shallow wound that while nasty, will not always make the person cease hostilities in many cases. If anyone is to take this approach, I would highly advise to use heavy bird shot or #4 buck as the first round, then back it up with 00 buck in case it fails. But for me it's 00 buck as the first, last and every round in my gun. I do keep slugs in a Sidesaddle for cases where a longer shot may be necessary. Wyv3rn, check out my reply to you in the "better defensive loads" thread. There might be something extra there that will help you out a bit. -Charging Handle
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 10:43:11 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 12:56:28 PM EDT
I don't think anyone is trying to criticize anyone here, just getting the facts right. However, the answers haven't really brought me any closer to a solution. I want something in reduced recoil that will not overpenetrate and not underpenetrate. 11-18" is where I want all the pelets to stop. If one or two is outside this range, that is ok but for the most part that's where I want it. In Roberts, GK: "Law Enforcement General Purpose Shoulder Fired Weapons -- The Wounding Effects of 5.56mm/.223 Carbines Compared With 12 Ga. Shotguns and Pistol Caliber Weapons using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant." Police Marksman, July/August 1998 they have a wound profile of #00 buckshot and it shows all rounds penetrating between 12-16". However, in the data table of the same article it says that penetration was 22-23". So there's conflicting data in that article alone. In this article: [url]http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm[/url] They recommend #1 Buckshot as it will "consistently penetrate 12 inches". They do not state if this means that 1 pellet penetrates 12" or most all of them. They also say that reduced recoil loads penetrate further than regular loads. There seems to be two schools of thought on this: 1. Higher velocity means higher penetration, period. 2. Lower velocity keeps the shot from deforming and thus penetrates better. The only data I can find is on "regular" loads, #1 and #00. So let me make 3 simple questions. 1. In #1 buck shot, does ALL the shot penetrate 12" or just a few pellets? What are the min/max resting points is basically what I am asking. 2. In #00 buck, does it penetrate the 12-16" as shown in the wound profile or 22" as in the data table? 3. Will reduced recoil loads really penetrate further or shorter? My ultimate goal out of this is to find a reduced recoil 2 3/4" (even 3" would be ok) that will deposit all (or nearly all, with a bias toward under-penetration) the pellets between 11-18". If you know of any loads that fit this requirement, questions 1,2,3 can be foregone (unless you know them too and would like to share that).
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 1:33:58 PM EDT
I Would say the loads that Troy was talking about would probably come the closest to meeting your needs. I have been shooting shotguns for about 27 years and know a little bit about them. The load you are looking for may not be avalible. I have heard very good things about the tactical loads you may want to try them.
View Quote
The closest so far. Close does not fill my needs though. One overpenetrates, the other underpenetrates. I find it hard to believe that I am the first one to ask for these specifications in a 12-guage shot shell. The answer has to be out there.
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 1:40:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By knightsar: You may have to reload the shells you want.
View Quote
Unless you have an answer or something constructive to add STOP REPLYING.
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 2:16:56 PM EDT
I don't have an answer sorry to waist your time!
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 5:36:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/16/2003 6:00:20 PM EDT by Charging_Handle]
1. In #1 buck shot, does ALL the shot penetrate 12" or just a few pellets? What are the min/max resting points is basically what I am asking.
View Quote
It would be very dependent on the velocity and the antimony of the lead. This could be different from one load to the next. I have seen some buckshot that will put all the pellets beyond 12" and some that will put a few pellets as deep as 18-19" while some of the pellets don't even make it past 6-8". So without knowing the exact load and it's performance parameters, I don't honestly think anyone here can answer this question. At least not with any accuracy.
2. In #00 buck, does it penetrate the 12-16" as shown in the wound profile or 22" as in the data table?
View Quote
Again, much of what I just said above will apply here also. You will see variances from one load to the next.
3. Will reduced recoil loads really penetrate further or shorter?
View Quote
This also depends. If you have a low recoil load that uses hard pellets that don't deform, it will likely penetrate well. But if you have a full power load that uses hard pellets and a low recoil load that uses very soft pellets, then the higher velocity load may penetrate deeper (or at least as well). And if you had two low recoil loads, the one using the hardest pellets would likely penetrate deepest. So as you can see, there is no easy way to give an answer to your question. In order to provide you with some help, let me give you some numbers from Duncan MacPherson's Penetration Model. Keep in mind that these are only estimates, but they will give you a good idea of what to expect from 00 buckshot. In order to do this though, you will need to know the specific velocity for whatever load you are using and it will also be beneficial if you know the antimony of the pellets. This means you need to zero in on a particular brand of ammo instead of speaking in general terms. But this will roughly tell you how deep penetration will be from 12 gauge 00 buckshot: 700 fps = 12-14" of penetration 800 fps = 14-16" of penetration 900 fps = 16-18" of penetration 1000 fps = 17-19" of penetration 1100 fps = 18-20" of penetration 1200 fps = 20-22" of penetration Now, let me add that if the pellets are not high antimony, then they may penetrate slightly less than the figures listed in the model. In order to determine the antimony %, you may have to contact the company and ask them personally. The harder the pellets, the higher the penetration. The softer the pellets, the lower the penetration. One other thing that you might want to consider when choosing one type of buckshot over another is the maximum distance you'll be using it. Will it be room distances or hallway distances of 10-20 ft? Or will you need it at 25 yards? The reason I mention this is that velocity drops off pretty fast with shotguns and the velocity that is ideal at the muzzle may no longer be ideal at max range. Finally, most of the modern low recoil 12 gauge 00 buckshot loads on the market usually send their cargo on their way at approximately 1000 fps. Any less and penetration is sacrificed. Any more and the pellets may deform and still underpenetrate in some situations. So my advice would be to find a low recoil load that has a velocity of approximately 1000 fps, uses hard pellets and patterns best in your shotgun. The load I would probably look at first is the Federal low recoil 00 buck. You will likely need a chrono because you can't always rely on factory data. Measure the velocity at around 3 ft from the muzzle then compare it to MacPherson's model. The Federal uses a fairly hard shot and will likely be very close to the penetration listed above at the different velocities. This would probably be the closest match to your requirements. Should you feel the penetration is too great, look for a slightly softer shot at the same velocity. While I am not 100% sure that this load uses softer pellets, the Winchester Super-X low recoil buck may be your next best option. Again, check with the company to see just how hard the pellets are. This is the best information I can provide you with. If you seek even more info, your best bet would likely be to purchase some Vyse gel mix and test the ammo for yourself. That's the only way I know to get the exact particulars you are asking for. And finally, I think the next time someone asks about the best home defense load for a 12 gauge, I am gonna respond by saying "a nice .223 carbine with 68 or 75 gr gr OTM!" LOL. The answer for .223 ammo is so much less complicated. But seriously, I hope this was of some help to you. -Charging Handle
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 6:27:51 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 6:43:37 PM EDT
All of these data points are a good starting point, but as with any load out of a smoothbore you will need to pattern YOUR GUN, with the load you choose. The penetration numbers can mostly be relied upon, but that grouping is going to be vastly different from gun to gun. We can quote tests and stuff that show certain pattern [b]chracteristics[/b] but in the end make sure to verify that the load patterns the way you want. Some people forget this step and end up with a GIANT gaping hole in the pattern -- when hunting this is no big deal they aren't shooting back -- HD is a little different. Good luck.
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 7:15:46 PM EDT
You can shoot 12ga 00 Buck through a 20" AR barrel??? [shock]
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 9:57:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/16/2003 10:14:21 PM EDT by wyv3rn]
My original question was if anyone had identified a specific load. When that fell through I tried to ask other questions. The #1 and #2 questions are really specific to DocGKR's work and the work of firearmstactical.com, I was hoping (and still am) one of them could chime in and clarify the results they had with the particular #1 and #00 buck loads they were using and published their articles about. To knightsar: I am sorry, I didn't mean to snap at you, I just don't like it when people's answers are "it's all doom and gloom, just give up". You have my sincere apologies. As for the softness/hardness of the shot, I've been thinking about that in relation to velocity all day. I've been mulling around different loads in my head, and I think I've pretty much come up with this as a starting point. Thank you very much for posting the penetration data though, I was hoping someone might post it, and it is very helpful. In the article on firearmstactical.com claim #1 buck is the best for defense. They say it is the smallest shot that consistently penetrates 12". There are also wound profile graphs on firearmstactical.com of apparently soft-lead #4 buck depositing a good amount of lead between 8-11". So, even though I am not positive (haven't recieved the definitive "yes" from firearmstactical staff), I am pretty sure the #1 buck they recommend penetrates 12" with a MAJORITY of the shot. It seems to coincide with what I know of the #4 and #00 shot penetration numbers. I am going to purchase some of the #1 shot they recommended (the brand/type/everything as they recommend) as my "ideal/baseline" load. I am going to use the milk carton method to see how many cartons it will penetrate and where it deposits most of its shot. Then I will look for a reduced recoil load that penetrates generally the same. I will start with the smaller shot loads as smaller shot carries with it higher density of shot and penetration being equal, would be much more deadly than larger shot. I am thinking I will try some of the various hard&heavy-shot #4 reduced recoil loads in 2 3/4" first. If I can't find adequate penetration there, I will look for an under-penetrating (by #00 standards) #00 load. If it comes to testing reduced recoil #00 loads, I'm going to be looking for some soft&light shot. If I can find a 3" reduced recoil load it'd probably be worth a try as well. I don't think they add more powder in 3" rounds, just more shot, which should bring velocity down some. As for the AR, yes it's a fine weapon, it will still be my go-to firearm (when I get it in reliable working order). But a firearm that puts 9-20 rounds of ~.30-.35 diameter shot between 12-18" of flesh with one pull of the trigger, that you can't hardly miss with certainly can't be a bad choice when you've just been rudely woken up groggy and hung over (though I don't really drink) by an intruder in your home. [:)]
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 10:40:44 PM EDT
Anyone ever tried that Hornady TAP Buckshot? I shot some at the Central Texas shoot we had earlier this year (Thanks to MrMurphy over on Glocktalk), and they patterned TIGHT at 15-20 yards. [url=http://www.tjconevera.com/hornady_ammo.htm]Here's[/url] a little info on them (they were the reduced recoil. blue hull shells). Scroll down to just before the bottom of the page.
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 7:35:58 AM EDT
Appoligy Accepted. I wasn't being a smart ass I was just saying that if they don't make it you may have to thats all. Thats what I do. Thanks Jeff
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 8:36:57 AM EDT
Gloftoe, Yes, the Hornady TAP buckshot is very good performing stuff. Light recoil and tight patterns seem to be the norm. Next to the Choke Precision Bonded buckshot, it is probably the best buckshot made. The only problem is that it seems pretty hard to locate. You wouldn't happen to have a source for the Hornady would you? -Charging Handle
Top Top