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MI, USA
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Posted: 6/26/2023 12:52:23 PM EDT
[#1]
Rear Charger.
Adding an NFA side charger upper is $240. So that plus the Maxim buffer at $189 is now into CMMG RDB bolt/barrel territory. I like the Maxim unit. It seems to reduce recoil well perhaps even better than the CMMG RDB, also it looks to be well built and is simple, not much to fail. But I could never use it in a gun for self-defense because I can not manipulate the charging handle quickly and even as a range toy I would try to limit my use of the charging handle as much as possible because for me it is so difficult to work. So I am going to hang back a bit and let others who have more knowledge and experience than me have their chance to field test it and see what their thoughts and ideas are. |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 6/26/2023 12:59:36 PM EDT
[#2]
Unless someone knows otherwise (e.g., has discussed with Maxim), I would not rule out the possibility that the units in question were shipped with an incorrect (e.g., wrong, overly high spring rate) recoil spring. Mistakes happen all the time.
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Posted: 6/26/2023 2:30:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Droppoint]
[#3]
Maxim Roller Delayed range trip, article, and video.
Video recorded today at the range:  Maxim drop-in Roller Delay "RDB" for 9mm AR - My observations, slowmo and shooting. (re-upload) Article: Maxim Roller (Bearing) Delayed Buffer System ***Pros:*** - Definitely reduces felt recoil. Direct comparison puts it somewhere between the Gentle Recoil System and an MP5. Huge improvement over a regular buffer/spring. - Captured system - no buffer detent/spring needed. - Easy install. - Can work with the Law folder with the Anarchy Outdoors adapter. ***Cons:*** A lot harder to charge for an average person. This is going to be a deal breaker for a lot of folks. Beefy dudes may not have any problem, but forget it for your wife/kids, and maybe you too. My wife can't even make it budge. The AR charging handle just wasn't designed to give leverage against this much pressure. ***Will I use it?*** No. It's much too hard to rack the bolt on a closed chamber. I'll hang onto the unit for future testing in case something changes or Maxim comes up with a means to make it easier to manipulate. The MP5 charging handle is in a location that allows a lot more leverage, my wife can use it easily, and it has even more gentle recoil. The Gentle Recoil Buffer Systems are nearly, but not quite, as good as the Maxim in mitigating recoil, are very easy to manipulate, and cost about the same, so I'm sticking with the GRS in my guns. It may be good for competition shooters with really strong hands, though. If you can use it, it does give good recoil mitigation in a simple drop-in solution. |
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UT, USA
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Posted: 6/26/2023 2:40:01 PM EDT
[#4]
This may be a dumb question but will it loosen up over time? Possible to use a spring that isn't as stiff or is that not the issue
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MI, USA
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Posted: 6/26/2023 2:53:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9nzz]
[#5]
Good point SecondAmend. Actually I hope it is something like that. I sent them an email last Friday afternoon regarding the charging difficulty but as of yet they have not responded.
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Posted: 6/26/2023 3:32:35 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Utahshooting: This may be a dumb question but will it loosen up over time? Possible to use a spring that isn't as stiff or is that not the issue Possibly, as it wears. I noticed it felt a little easier in the first 50 rounds, but I suspect it was just psychological as my hands/arms/brain got used to the amount of force needed. By the end it was still very hard to charge - more than most people would probably be willing to deal with. I could only do about 100 rounds this time. I had to get back and disassembling/reassembling buffer tube/upper setups to try out the different configurations took fair amount of my time. |
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Posted: 6/26/2023 3:34:51 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 9nzz: Rear Charger. Adding an NFA side charger upper is $240. So that plus the Maxim buffer at $189 is now into CMMG RDB bolt/barrel territory. I like the Maxim unit. It seems to reduce recoil well perhaps even better than the CMMG RDB, also it looks to be well built and is simple, not much to fail. But I could never use it in a gun for self-defense because I can not manipulate the charging handle quickly and even as a range toy I would try to limit my use of the charging handle as much as possible because for me it is so difficult to work. So I am going to hang back a bit and let others who have more knowledge and experience than me have their chance to field test it and see what their thoughts and ideas are. I came to a similar conclusion re: defensive work. Another option may be the Devil Dog Hard Charger to turn it into a side charger, but then you're in for another $200. |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 6/26/2023 4:15:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Kiranslee]
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Droppoint: I came to a similar conclusion re: defensive work. Another option may be the Devil Dog Hard Charger to turn it into a side charger, but then you're in for another $200. Haha this is what I have coming this Wednesday. Was able to snag it for under $100 with a promo so I will be testing this with my build this week. I'm also at about 500 rounds now and I notice its much easier to charge or maybe my technique just got better.....(I'm not a gorilla). |
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Posted: 6/26/2023 4:46:07 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Droppoint: I came to a similar conclusion re: defensive work. Another option may be the Devil Dog Hard Charger to turn it into a side charger, but then you're in for another $200. I've had a Devil Dog side charging handle on one of my PCC's for like 5 years now, and it still takes a lot of force to charge my 16" AR9 with the Tubb flat wire spring. Almost as much as charging this Maxim RDB. I hope your experience is better. |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 6/26/2023 5:04:42 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By chevrofreak: I've had a Devil Dog side charging handle on one of my PCC's for like 5 years now, and it still takes a lot of force to charge my 16" AR9 with the Tubb flat wire spring. Almost as much as charging this Maxim RDB. I hope your experience is better. Ah shoot, thanks for the heads up. I'll report back haha. |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 6/26/2023 9:00:40 PM EDT
[#11]
Thanks for the information Doug!!!!!!!!! From the first reports I thought that charging would be a problem. I am sure many of us share my disappointment. Oh well, it's the gentle recoil system for me. Thanks again!!
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FL, USA
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Posted: 6/27/2023 6:35:45 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Droppoint: Maxim Roller Delayed range trip, article, and video. Video recorded today at the range:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVgmaof-Kw0Article: Maxim Roller (Bearing) Delayed Buffer System ***Pros:*** - Definitely reduces felt recoil. Direct comparison puts it somewhere between the Gentle Recoil System and an MP5. Huge improvement over a regular buffer/spring. - Captured system - no buffer detent/spring needed. - Easy install. - Can work with the Law folder with the Anarchy Outdoors adapter. ***Cons:*** A lot harder to charge for an average person. This is going to be a deal breaker for a lot of folks. Beefy dudes may not have any problem, but forget it for your wife/kids, and maybe you too. My wife can't even make it budge. The AR charging handle just wasn't designed to give leverage against this much pressure. ***Will I use it?*** No. It's much too hard to rack the bolt on a closed chamber. I'll hang onto the unit for future testing in case something changes or Maxim comes up with a means to make it easier to manipulate. The MP5 charging handle is in a location that allows a lot more leverage, my wife can use it easily, and it has even more gentle recoil. The Gentle Recoil Buffer Systems are nearly, but not quite, as good as the Maxim in mitigating recoil, are very easy to manipulate, and cost about the same, so I'm sticking with the GRS in my guns. It may be good for competition shooters with really strong hands, though. If you can use it, it does give good recoil mitigation in a simple drop-in solution. Charging the gun would now be a two handed operation. Yeah, it sucks and is kinda ghetto but I would think should work. Even more ghetto would be to just jam something through the slot of our buffer tubes to push on the rear of the sliding collar of the Maxim buffer to relieve pressure should also work. |
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Posted: 6/27/2023 7:13:09 AM EDT
[#13]
Well, that's a bummer.
Does the Scheel's roller delayed buffer/tube combo have the same issue of being difficult to pull the CH back? |
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Posted: 6/27/2023 7:25:23 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By towerofpower94: FYI, I use Geissele SSAs in both of the lowers that wear 9mm blowback uppers with ramped bolts without issue. I've also run the upper with a ramped Colt-style bolt on my RR M16 with a G SSF and it did fine in semi and full auto. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By towerofpower94: Originally Posted By eyeson: Originally Posted By str8shuutr45: This is what I know this morning. In order for the RDS to function, the BCG weight must be removed to allow the bcg to travel over the “guide rod” into the buffer tube. In my short test, this turns my AR9 to not a single shot SBR. The bolt strips a new round but doesn’t reset the hammer. I have a few thoughts but ran out of testing time. 1) the light weight of the bcg travels back and forth faster than the hammer/disco reset. 2) the bcg doesn’t travel rearward enough to reset the hammer. I’ve sent an email with pics to Maxim and await their reply. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/65087/IMG_1020_jpeg-2860016.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/65087/IMG_1022_jpeg-2860017.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/65087/IMG_1027_jpeg-2860018.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/65087/IMG_1026_jpeg-2860019.JPG Is your bolt ramped? What trigger are you using, looks like a Geissele trigger, did not know they made a pcc trigger. The buffer in my cqb stock has a way shorter rubber piece. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/245051/B309CC52-4E5E-4AC1-9264-7D1AFD2F7D7A_jpe-2860034.JPG FYI, I use Geissele SSAs in both of the lowers that wear 9mm blowback uppers with ramped bolts without issue. I've also run the upper with a ramped Colt-style bolt on my RR M16 with a G SSF and it did fine in semi and full auto. Thanks for the reply. I have trigger issue with the hammer following the bolt home wonder if the geissele trigger would fix that. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 6/27/2023 7:33:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: amphibian]
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By eyeson: Thanks for the reply. I have trigger issue with the hammer following the bolt home wonder if the geissele trigger would fix that. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By eyeson: Originally Posted By towerofpower94: Originally Posted By eyeson: Originally Posted By str8shuutr45: This is what I know this morning. In order for the RDS to function, the BCG weight must be removed to allow the bcg to travel over the "guide rod" into the buffer tube. In my short test, this turns my AR9 to not a single shot SBR. The bolt strips a new round but doesn't reset the hammer. I have a few thoughts but ran out of testing time. 1) the light weight of the bcg travels back and forth faster than the hammer/disco reset. 2) the bcg doesn't travel rearward enough to reset the hammer. I've sent an email with pics to Maxim and await their reply. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/65087/IMG_1020_jpeg-2860016.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/65087/IMG_1022_jpeg-2860017.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/65087/IMG_1027_jpeg-2860018.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/65087/IMG_1026_jpeg-2860019.JPG Is your bolt ramped? What trigger are you using, looks like a Geissele trigger, did not know they made a pcc trigger. The buffer in my cqb stock has a way shorter rubber piece. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/245051/B309CC52-4E5E-4AC1-9264-7D1AFD2F7D7A_jpe-2860034.JPG FYI, I use Geissele SSAs in both of the lowers that wear 9mm blowback uppers with ramped bolts without issue. I've also run the upper with a ramped Colt-style bolt on my RR M16 with a G SSF and it did fine in semi and full auto. Thanks for the reply. I have trigger issue with the hammer following the bolt home wonder if the geissele trigger would fix that. I run Geissele triggers in full auto in pistol caliber carbines as well but I also do extensive testing first AND I do NOT care about warranty support. If you care about the warranty, doing so will void your warranty. It is on the Geisssele website for the SSA, SSF and others. |
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Posted: 6/27/2023 9:32:22 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By amphibian: Great review. I know you use that skeletonized buffer tube for the slow mo videos and I use a rifle length tube with slots milled along the right side. I was thinking about making some kind of collar with a spring loaded plunger that you could use in conjunction with the charging handle. Actually, having two 'plungers' 180 degrees from each other to hold the rear flange on both sides would be better. Using the JRC tube there is already a gap in that area since the tube is so long so it won't interfere with the stock. I was already planning on making some 1.5" long spacers to put in the JRC tube for any configurations that may require a standard 7" tube depth. Charging the gun would now be a two handed operation. Yeah, it sucks and is kinda ghetto but I would think should work. Even more ghetto would be to just jam something through the slot of our buffer tubes to push on the rear of the sliding collar of the Maxim buffer to relieve pressure should also work. Or... A couple people have noticed that the Radian Raptor charging handle helps significantly with charging this system, probably because of the larger surface area of the handle wings. Springfield Armory makes a charging handle called the LevAR that has a pop-out camming system to break the bolt free during the first bit of travel for removing stuck cases. The cam lever is on the right side of the handle, but it would probably work very well. Each is about $100, so I'm going to have to decide which to get. Probably the Raptor or Raptor-LT. |
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Posted: 6/27/2023 9:49:25 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Droppoint: Or... A couple people have noticed that the Radian Raptor charging handle helps significantly with charging this system, probably because of the larger surface area of the handle wings. Springfield Armory makes a charging handle called the LevAR that has a pop-out camming system to break the bolt free during the first bit of travel for removing stuck cases. The cam lever is on the right side of the handle, but it would probably work very well. Each is about $100, so I'm going to have to decide which to get. Probably the Raptor or Raptor-LT. I had not seen the Lev-AR, definitely interesting and similar function to the HK rifle charging handles. Intended to help remove stuck cases, don't know if it would be a good candidate for full time use given the wear areas. |
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Posted: 6/27/2023 10:29:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: backbencher]
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Droppoint: Maxim Roller Delayed range trip, article, and video. Video recorded today at the range: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVgmaof-Kw0Article: Maxim Roller (Bearing) Delayed Buffer System ***Pros:*** - Definitely reduces felt recoil. Direct comparison puts it somewhere between the Gentle Recoil System and an MP5. Huge improvement over a regular buffer/spring. - Captured system - no buffer detent/spring needed. - Easy install. - Can work with the Law folder with the Anarchy Outdoors adapter. ***Cons:*** A lot harder to charge for an average person. This is going to be a deal breaker for a lot of folks. Beefy dudes may not have any problem, but forget it for your wife/kids, and maybe you too. My wife can't even make it budge. The AR charging handle just wasn't designed to give leverage against this much pressure. ***Will I use it?*** No. It's much too hard to rack the bolt on a closed chamber. I'll hang onto the unit for future testing in case something changes or Maxim comes up with a means to make it easier to manipulate. The MP5 charging handle is in a location that allows a lot more leverage, my wife can use it easily, and it has even more gentle recoil. The Gentle Recoil Buffer Systems are nearly, but not quite, as good as the Maxim in mitigating recoil, are very easy to manipulate, and cost about the same, so I'm sticking with the GRS in my guns. It may be good for competition shooters with really strong hands, though. If you can use it, it does give good recoil mitigation in a simple drop-in solution. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Droppoint: Maxim Roller Delayed range trip, article, and video. Video recorded today at the range: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVgmaof-Kw0Article: Maxim Roller (Bearing) Delayed Buffer System ***Pros:*** - Definitely reduces felt recoil. Direct comparison puts it somewhere between the Gentle Recoil System and an MP5. Huge improvement over a regular buffer/spring. - Captured system - no buffer detent/spring needed. - Easy install. - Can work with the Law folder with the Anarchy Outdoors adapter. ***Cons:*** A lot harder to charge for an average person. This is going to be a deal breaker for a lot of folks. Beefy dudes may not have any problem, but forget it for your wife/kids, and maybe you too. My wife can't even make it budge. The AR charging handle just wasn't designed to give leverage against this much pressure. ***Will I use it?*** No. It's much too hard to rack the bolt on a closed chamber. I'll hang onto the unit for future testing in case something changes or Maxim comes up with a means to make it easier to manipulate. The MP5 charging handle is in a location that allows a lot more leverage, my wife can use it easily, and it has even more gentle recoil. The Gentle Recoil Buffer Systems are nearly, but not quite, as good as the Maxim in mitigating recoil, are very easy to manipulate, and cost about the same, so I'm sticking with the GRS in my guns. It may be good for competition shooters with really strong hands, though. If you can use it, it does give good recoil mitigation in a simple drop-in solution. Thank you so much for testing this, particularly making the LAW folder work. One small nitpick w/ your writeup on your website: Upon firing, the blowback forces push on the front portion of the buffer, but it needs to move the rear portion out of the way first to unlock the bearings. As the pressure increases, the bearings try to push outward and start moving the collar backwards. This eventually moves the collar out of the way, releases the bearings and unlocks the front portion of the buffer from the guide rod. Only then can the bolt and front buffer section start to move. The cartridge case base is being forced out of the chamber by the pressure of the powder gasses, so the bolt is moving, which is generating the movement of the rear portion of the buffer. Amphibian, maybe I missed it, have you tried this with your CMMG radially-delayed blowback bits? No rule that we can't try to combine two systems. |
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Posted: 6/27/2023 10:38:40 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By towerofpower94: Well, that's a bummer. Does the Scheel's roller delayed buffer/tube combo have the same issue of being difficult to pull the CH back? It’s noticeably more difficult when compared to a standard blowback system. It doesn’t bother me, but I wouldn’t recommend it for a child or the elderly. |
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Posted: 6/27/2023 11:07:08 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: The cartridge case base is being forced out of the chamber by the pressure of the powder gasses, so the bolt is moving, which is generating the movement of the rear portion of the buffer. |
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Posted: 6/27/2023 1:04:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: backbencher]
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By November5: A much simpler way of saying that is, "Upon firing, the blowback forces push on the front portion of the buffer" Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By November5: Originally Posted By backbencher: The cartridge case base is being forced out of the chamber by the pressure of the powder gasses, so the bolt is moving, which is generating the movement of the rear portion of the buffer. A much simpler way of saying that is, "Upon firing, the blowback forces push on the front portion of the buffer" Unfortunately, given that the portion of his website I quoted specifically states the bolt is not moving, his two sentences contradict each other, which is what I was pointing out. Do we have a working diagram of this thing? Delayed blowback systems are hard to visualize, I know I got CMMG's radial-delayed blowback system completely wrong until someone explained it to me. I understand we have several working parts: Ball bearings Recess in guide rod Forward mass Rearward mass Recoil spring I'm not fully understanding where everything is at the start of operation, what direction the ball bearings are moving (other than back), and where everything is at the end of the rearward recoil stroke. In lever delayed (FAMAS, Savage A17/22) & CMMG's radial delayed blowback, the slight rearward movement of the bolt produces a faster rearward travel of the larger mass, allowing less total mass to be used in the system vs a simpler direct blowback. Are the ball bearings starting in the guide rod recess, and being forced out under recoil of the forward mass, thus accelerating the rearward mass? |
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Posted: 6/27/2023 3:22:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: RDTCU]
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: Do we have a working diagram of this thing? Are the ball bearings starting in the guide rod recess, and being forced out under recoil of the forward mass, thus accelerating the rearward mass? The answer is yes, but I'm not sure where the spring is acting in the Maxim design to force lockup. I drew this up a little over a year ago for use with a standard flatwire spring...  Attached FileAnd finally started on the prototype a couple months ago. Being a dad makes some things slow going...   Attached FileEnded up with a hydraulic buffer with custom weights and it's very slick, but still interested in the RDB.  Attached File |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 6/27/2023 3:59:31 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: Amphibian, maybe I missed it, have you tried this with your CMMG radially-delayed blowback bits? No rule that we can't try to combine two systems. |
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Posted: 6/27/2023 5:06:56 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By amphibian: Nope. I just got mine yesterday. Won't be able to test till maybe the weekend Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By amphibian: Originally Posted By backbencher: Amphibian, maybe I missed it, have you tried this with your CMMG radially-delayed blowback bits? No rule that we can't try to combine two systems. Nope. I just got mine yesterday. Won't be able to test till maybe the weekend God bless you, Droppoint, and all those of you testing w/ your hard earned ammo. |
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Posted: 6/27/2023 5:47:09 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mav3rick: The more I read these comments, the more I think this thing is more trouble than its worth. I will keep following though to see what happens. Agreed. |
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Posted: 6/27/2023 10:11:35 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RDTCU: The answer is yes, but I'm not sure where the spring is acting in the Maxim design to force lockup. I drew this up a little over a year ago for use with a standard flatwire spring... https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/173511/PXL_20230627_192001916_jpg-2865631.JPG And finally started on the prototype a couple months ago. Being a dad makes some things slow going... https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/173511/PXL_20230226_025900383_jpg-2865647.JPG Ended up with a hydraulic buffer with custom weights and it's very slick, but still interested in the RDB. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/173511/PXL_20230520_205950259_jpg-2865646.JPG Oooooh. Neat. |
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Posted: 6/27/2023 11:07:16 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By towerofpower94: Well, that's a bummer. Does the Scheel's roller delayed buffer/tube combo have the same issue of being difficult to pull the CH back? Nowhere near as much force required with the Scheel. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 6/28/2023 6:22:36 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Droppoint: Or... A couple people have noticed that the Radian Raptor charging handle helps significantly with charging this system, probably because of the larger surface area of the handle wings. Springfield Armory makes a charging handle called the LevAR that has a pop-out camming system to break the bolt free during the first bit of travel for removing stuck cases. The cam lever is on the right side of the handle, but it would probably work very well. Each is about $100, so I'm going to have to decide which to get. Probably the Raptor or Raptor-LT. Thanks! |
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Posted: 6/28/2023 7:53:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: towerofpower94]
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: It’s noticeably more difficult when compared to a standard blowback system. It doesn’t bother me, but I wouldn’t recommend it for a child or the elderly. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: Originally Posted By towerofpower94: Well, that's a bummer. Does the Scheel's roller delayed buffer/tube combo have the same issue of being difficult to pull the CH back? It’s noticeably more difficult when compared to a standard blowback system. It doesn’t bother me, but I wouldn’t recommend it for a child or the elderly. Thanks. Ever had an issue manipulating it on the clock? Is the gain of reduced recoil worth the risk of a more difficult to operate system? I'm guessing the juice is worth the squeeze, as I think you're still using it, but wanted to confirm before I jump into the Scheels or a Maxim. |
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Posted: 6/28/2023 7:55:48 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By chevrofreak: Nowhere near as much force required with the Scheel. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By chevrofreak: Originally Posted By towerofpower94: Well, that's a bummer. Does the Scheel's roller delayed buffer/tube combo have the same issue of being difficult to pull the CH back? Nowhere near as much force required with the Scheel. Thanks. You're probably one of a very limited group that has hands on experience with both the Scheels and Maxim. |
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Posted: 6/28/2023 9:04:10 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By towerofpower94: Thanks. Ever had an issue manipulating it on the clock? Is the gain of reduced recoil worth the risk of a more difficult to operate system? I'm guessing the juice is worth the squeeze, as I think you're still using it, but wanted to confirm before I jump into the Scheels or a Maxim. The only time you really need to operate the charging handle on the clock is table starts and my times are unchanged. It’s more of a “Huh, this is harder than it was before” thing than it is anything which affects performance. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 6/28/2023 9:06:52 AM EDT
[#32]
I just got around to putting my Maxim RDB into a lower and tried to dry cycle it. Yeah, it is relatively a lot harder to do with milspec CH compared to any straight blowback setup, or delayed like the CMMG RDB for that matter.
I also tried it with an Armageddon Tactical CH I had laying around. Here is what that CH looks like below.  Not that bad using that CH and I'm sure similar to a Raptor or whatever has more surface area than a milspec CH. I can see this being an issue for people with less upper body strength or even if you are injured or maybe if you need to clear it by ramming the charging handle against a post may not even work. |
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Posted: 6/28/2023 1:49:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Droppoint]
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: It’s noticeably more difficult when compared to a standard blowback system. It doesn’t bother me, but I wouldn’t recommend it for a child or the elderly. Or someone new to shooting, or casual/fun shooters, IMHO. Mine is ridiculously hard to charge even with a Breach Large charging handle. I can do it, but it requires concentrated effort, and I'm in pretty good physical condition. Everyone loves the MP5 when it comes out. The Maxim is a bear to use. I really had high hopes for it. |
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Posted: 6/28/2023 2:06:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: RDTCU]
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Droppoint: Or someone new to shooting, or casual/fun shooters, IMHO. Mine is ridiculously hard to charge even with a Breach Large charging handle. I can do it, but it requires concentrated effort, and I'm in pretty good physical condition. Everyone loves the MP5 when it comes out. The Maxim is a bear to use. I really had high hopes for it. A little more ingenuity and it could be as easy to charge as the MP5 A floating sleeve or rod embedded in the bolt that lets the charging handle engage the collar a short distance before pulling on the bolt. |
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Posted: 6/28/2023 3:58:45 PM EDT
[#35]
It sounds like this system might work well for 9mm major loads.
I look forward to continued feedback from users. |
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Posted: 6/28/2023 4:10:49 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RDTCU: The answer is yes, but I'm not sure where the spring is acting in the Maxim design to force lockup. I drew this up a little over a year ago for use with a standard flatwire spring... https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/173511/PXL_20230627_192001916_jpg-2865631.JPG And finally started on the prototype a couple months ago. Being a dad makes some things slow going... https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/173511/PXL_20230226_025900383_jpg-2865647.JPG Ended up with a hydraulic buffer with custom weights and it's very slick, but still interested in the RDB. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/173511/PXL_20230520_205950259_jpg-2865646.JPG Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RDTCU: Originally Posted By backbencher: Do we have a working diagram of this thing? Are the ball bearings starting in the guide rod recess, and being forced out under recoil of the forward mass, thus accelerating the rearward mass? The answer is yes, but I'm not sure where the spring is acting in the Maxim design to force lockup. I drew this up a little over a year ago for use with a standard flatwire spring... https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/173511/PXL_20230627_192001916_jpg-2865631.JPG And finally started on the prototype a couple months ago. Being a dad makes some things slow going... https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/173511/PXL_20230226_025900383_jpg-2865647.JPG Ended up with a hydraulic buffer with custom weights and it's very slick, but still interested in the RDB. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/173511/PXL_20230520_205950259_jpg-2865646.JPG Can you make a balanced recoil system? Bolt pushes back a toothed rod, annular weight in back of buffer tube moves forward b/c of gear at front of weight running on toothed rod, compressing normal recoil spring btwn weight & bolt?
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FL, USA
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Posted: 6/28/2023 5:14:19 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: Can you make a balanced recoil system? Bolt pushes back a toothed rod, annular weight in back of buffer tube moves forward b/c of gear at front of weight running on toothed rod, compressing normal recoil spring btwn weight & bolt? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: Originally Posted By RDTCU: Originally Posted By backbencher: Do we have a working diagram of this thing? Are the ball bearings starting in the guide rod recess, and being forced out under recoil of the forward mass, thus accelerating the rearward mass? The answer is yes, but I'm not sure where the spring is acting in the Maxim design to force lockup. I drew this up a little over a year ago for use with a standard flatwire spring... https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/173511/PXL_20230627_192001916_jpg-2865631.JPG And finally started on the prototype a couple months ago. Being a dad makes some things slow going... https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/173511/PXL_20230226_025900383_jpg-2865647.JPG Ended up with a hydraulic buffer with custom weights and it's very slick, but still interested in the RDB. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/173511/PXL_20230520_205950259_jpg-2865646.JPG Can you make a balanced recoil system? Bolt pushes back a toothed rod, annular weight in back of buffer tube moves forward b/c of gear at front of weight running on toothed rod, compressing normal recoil spring btwn weight & bolt? Not released yet but I did see Ian McCollum from Forgotten Weapons last weekend and he told me he has one in his hands for testing. |
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Posted: 6/28/2023 5:17:03 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: Thank you so much for testing this, particularly making the LAW folder work. One small nitpick w/ your writeup on your website: The cartridge case base is being forced out of the chamber by the pressure of the powder gasses, so the bolt is moving, which is generating the movement of the rear portion of the buffer. Amphibian, maybe I missed it, have you tried this with your CMMG radially-delayed blowback bits? No rule that we can't try to combine two systems. You're technically correct; the best kind of correct. (Name that show quote!) I'll fix it. |
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Posted: 6/28/2023 5:35:55 PM EDT
[#39]
So as it sits now, the RDB conversion from CMMG or Scheels seem like the way to go?
Hoping there’s a MKII version of this that fixes the break free weight, but hell if I know how that would work. |
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Posted: 6/28/2023 5:52:28 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Droppoint: You're technically correct; the best kind of correct. (Name that show quote!) I'll fix it. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Droppoint: Originally Posted By backbencher: Thank you so much for testing this, particularly making the LAW folder work. One small nitpick w/ your writeup on your website: The cartridge case base is being forced out of the chamber by the pressure of the powder gasses, so the bolt is moving, which is generating the movement of the rear portion of the buffer. Amphibian, maybe I missed it, have you tried this with your CMMG radially-delayed blowback bits? No rule that we can't try to combine two systems. You're technically correct; the best kind of correct. (Name that show quote!) I'll fix it. Cheers, man. There's so much confusion around these systems. I've bought a book on full auto that an ARFCOMer wrote & found errors in the 1st page. |
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Posted: 6/28/2023 6:10:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: hdcharlie]
[#41]
I took a lower with the RDS system and another lower with the "Gentle Recoil" system, along with a single 16" barreled upper, to the range this morning. I was shooting WCC 124gr +P ball ammo in both lowers.
First, the RDS system worked perfectly from the first shot. As others have noted, there is considerable more force needed to charge the rifle, but I found it manageable. The lower with the GR system worked equally as well. My GR system consisted of the following parts: JRC extended buffer tube Kyshot RB5007 buffer 2 - Kynshot 2.5oz. spacer/weights Wilson Combat flat-wire buffer spring There were three shooters testing the carbine and we all came to the same conclusion. We agreed that the GR system was the equal or slightly better than the Maxim RDS. That conclusion was drawn using only one ammo type, so results might be different with other brands and bullet weights, pressures, etc. If the RDS has one major selling point, it's in its simplicity, with the caveat discussed below. One thing I'm finding curious and distressing is that carbine buffer tubes of different brands do not all have the same internal depth. Some are longer and some are shorter. This makes it difficult to get the RDS to just meet the bolt when the receiver halves are mated. Of course, I am assuming that that is the way the system should operate. I can see how a space between the bolt and the RDS could be problematic, or not, but I don't know. Having the RDS slightly compressed after installation should also not be desirable, but who knows. Maxim should have provided some guidance for the installation of the unit, but they didn't. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 6/28/2023 6:18:56 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NorthPolar: So as it sits now, the RDB conversion from CMMG or Scheels seem like the way to go? I have a new bolt coming but may take me a while to run 1k to figure out if their improvements actually make a difference. On the Scheels I'm no fan of putting more holes in my buffer tube but to each his own. I also have a deposit in on the MEAN Arms bearing delay which was supposed to ship early Q2 and we are passed that. If you want something right now that is smooth and works with no tinkering @Droppoint's GRS is quite good. I Iiked it a lot better with the RB5007 vs the RB5015 but I'm running full auto. |
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Posted: 6/28/2023 7:07:22 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Droppoint: You're technically correct; the best kind of correct. (Name that show quote!) I'll fix it. Futurama |
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Posted: 6/28/2023 7:08:46 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By amphibian: Sounds like you are describing the upcoming Armanov buffer: https://www.armanov.com/buffer Not released yet but I did see Ian McCollum from Forgotten Weapons last weekend and he told me he has one in his hands for testing. Interdasting... 🤔 |
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Posted: 6/28/2023 10:43:26 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By amphibian: The CMMG RDB probably still has ejector spring failures around the 1K mark: https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/Has-the-CMMG-RDB-ejector-spring-issue-been-resolved-by-the-Mk10-spring-/15-781020/ I have a new bolt coming but may take me a while to run 1k to figure out if their improvements actually make a difference. On the Scheels I'm no fan of putting more holes in my buffer tube but to each his own. I also have a deposit in on the MEAN Arms bearing delay which was supposed to ship early Q2 and we are passed that. If you want something right now that is smooth and works with no tinkering @Droppoint's GRS is quite good. I Iiked it a lot better with the RB5007 vs the RB5015 but I'm running full auto. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By amphibian: Originally Posted By NorthPolar: So as it sits now, the RDB conversion from CMMG or Scheels seem like the way to go? The CMMG RDB probably still has ejector spring failures around the 1K mark: https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/Has-the-CMMG-RDB-ejector-spring-issue-been-resolved-by-the-Mk10-spring-/15-781020/ I have a new bolt coming but may take me a while to run 1k to figure out if their improvements actually make a difference. On the Scheels I'm no fan of putting more holes in my buffer tube but to each his own. I also have a deposit in on the MEAN Arms bearing delay which was supposed to ship early Q2 and we are passed that. If you want something right now that is smooth and works with no tinkering @Droppoint's GRS is quite good. I Iiked it a lot better with the RB5007 vs the RB5015 but I'm running full auto. Thought the new CMMG radial delay guns had a fixed ejector? |
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Posted: 6/28/2023 10:58:55 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By amphibian: The CMMG RDB probably still has ejector spring failures around the 1K mark: https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/Has-the-CMMG-RDB-ejector-spring-issue-been-resolved-by-the-Mk10-spring-/15-781020/ I have a new bolt coming but may take me a while to run 1k to figure out if their improvements actually make a difference. On the Scheels I'm no fan of putting more holes in my buffer tube but to each his own. I also have a deposit in on the MEAN Arms bearing delay which was supposed to ship early Q2 and we are passed that. If you want something right now that is smooth and works with no tinkering @Droppoint's GRS is quite good. I Iiked it a lot better with the RB5007 vs the RB5015 but I'm running full auto.  it’s mostly curiosity at this point, I’m still saving up for upgrades, SBR a lower, suppressor, etc.
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Posted: 6/28/2023 10:59:00 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher:Thought the new CMMG radial delay guns had a fixed ejector? Site still says it is in the bolt. If it was fixed it would most likely be in the lower, but since they sell just the upper... |
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Posted: 6/28/2023 11:24:39 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By hdcharlie: Site still says it is in the bolt. If it was fixed it would most likely be in the lower, but since they sell just the upper... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By hdcharlie: Originally Posted By backbencher: Thought the new CMMG radial delay guns had a fixed ejector? Site still says it is in the bolt. If it was fixed it would most likely be in the lower, but since they sell just the upper... https://cmmg.com/pistol-dissent-mk17-9mm-6-5 With a wide range of bullet weights comes new engineering challenges in a new platform. The 9mm Radial Delayed Blowback Compact Action addresses these challenges by utilizing a fixed ejector in the upper receiver. I can't make heads nor tails of their model names, but their new bufferless system has a fixed ejector. |
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Posted: 6/28/2023 11:47:55 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher:https://cmmg.com/pistol-dissent-mk17-9mm-6-5 I can't make heads nor tails of their model names, but their new bufferless system has a fixed ejector. That's not the standard AR RDB action. The Dissent is the new version that has all the recoil springs in the upper. It's a completely different setup. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 6/28/2023 11:51:04 PM EDT
[#50]
The new CMMG Dissent has the receiver mounted ejector and compact action but with RDB
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