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Braceman raided by ATF. (Page 4 of 10)
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Originally Posted By jos51700: I know for a fact he wasn't engraving faux third holes, as of 6-7 years ago, because I talked to him about engraving them in a lower and he wouldn't do it. I think he stopped when US anodize got in trouble for having guns with the false pin engraved. It was the same time Troy came out with their retro line with exactly that and the ATF was fine with it. |
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Lots of disinformation in this thread. US anodizing did not get jammed up solely for faux 3rd pin holes and neither did Brace. Not to mention he stopped doing that years ago.This was not about engraving or rewelding pieces of a machine gun or " once a machine gun always a machine gun". The pieces have no serial number therefore no traceability. There would be no way to prove in court what a certain magwell used to be. If you cant trace it you cant even prove it was real. My guess, and this is based off what I know about him being very careful not to cross any lines, is this was a message. Probably based on a bullshit statement from a CI that will never be produced. I believe I remember years ago something about ATF sending a letter telling him he needed an FFL. Keep in mind this was years ago so I do not remember details,and I have seen this happen so many times I could be confusing instances, but I believe that was around the same time he stopped colt engravings and faux 3rd pin holes. They probably decided it was time to send a stronger message. There could only be 2 reasons. 1) he did something that crossed the line, which I abolutely do not believe 2) this was a message. PMF's are a very contentious subject. You can have one DOJ employee that could care less about them and another who takes issue with them. I know examiners are all over the place. When I have a question or need clarification I get it in writting from FIPB counsel and/or HQ councel Through FIPB. As far as PMF"s go we absolutely do not work on them, cerakote them, engrave them or anything else. We do not take them in period. ATF does ths and they hope the target does not have the resources to fight it. If he doesnt they will say look you forfiet your property and never do it again and you can go on your way. 99% of people will take that deal in a heartbeat. I personally know a few people that have had this tactic used on them and when you have the federal government threatening most people will give in. I have seen a few people do this. I have seen a few FFL's with lawyers end up getting things dropped with very little opposition but you have to be preparred to call their bluff which means dealing with the consequences if they are not bluffing. In the end God knows what this was about. It is interesting that there is no information out there about it. I wish the best for him. I am not a fan of the government doing this to people of course. I am also wondering how we know they dug up the yard? Did someone actually see it or is it hersey? Dont get me wrong. I am 100% behind Brace. He was aways great in all my dealings with him. Its just a pattern I have seen. Almost always there was a warning somewhere baring exceptions where people were just flat idiots posting on social media which he was not. and yes I know he was not doing anything that needed an FFL that we know of. That does not stop ATF from trying to make you get one. |
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Originally Posted By Samson-Dogg: Lots of disinformation in this thread. US anodizing did not get jammed up solely for faux 3rd pin holes and neither did Brace. Not to mention he stopped doing that years ago.This was not about engraving or rewelding pieces of a machine gun or " once a machine gun always a machine gun". The pieces have no serial number therefore no traceability. There would be no way to prove in court what a certain magwell used to be. If you cant trace it you cant even prove it was real. My guess, and this is based off what I know about him being very careful not to cross any lines, is this was a message. Probably based on a bullshit statement from a CI that will never be produced. I believe I remember years ago something about ATF sending a letter telling him he needed an FFL. Keep in mind this was years ago so I do not remember details,and I have seen this happen so many times I could be confusing instances, but I believe that was around the same time he stopped colt engravings and faux 3rd pin holes. They probably decided it was time to send a stronger message. There could only be 2 reasons. 1) he did something that crossed the line, which I abolutely do not believe 2) this was a message. PMF's are a very contentious subject. You can have one DOJ employee that could care less about them and another who takes issue with them. I know examiners are all over the place. When I have a question or need clarification I get it in writting from FIPB counsel and/or HQ councel Through FIPB. As far as PMF"s go we absolutely do not work on them, cerakote them, engrave them or anything else. We do not take them in period. ATF does ths and they hope the target does not have the resources to fight it. If he doesnt they will say look you forfiet your property and never do it again and you can go on your way. 99% of people will take that deal in a heartbeat. I personally know a few people that have had this tactic used on them and when you have the federal government threatening most people will give in. I have seen a few people do this. I have seen a few FFL's with lawyers end up getting things dropped with very little opposition but you have to be preparred to call their bluff which means dealing with the consequences if they are not bluffing. In the end God knows what this was about. It is interesting that there is no information out there about it. I wish the best for him. I am not a fan of the government doing this to people of course. I am also wondering how we know they dug up the yard? Did someone actually see it or is it hersey? Dont get me wrong. I am 100% behind Brace. He was aways great in all my dealings with him. Its just a pattern I have seen. Almost always there was a warning somewhere baring exceptions where people were just flat idiots posting on social media which he was not. and yes I know he was not doing anything that needed an FFL that we know of. That does not stop ATF from trying to make you get one. A good friend of mine got the ATF called on him because he was tumbling brass in a small concrete mixer in his garage with the door open. A neighbor called and said he was making bombs. The ATF showed up, he showed them what he was doing and that he had a nice reloading setup with multiple 1050s, and they told him he had to get an 06 FFL. He replied that he didn't sell ammo and they countered with, "well if you don't want us coming back with shields and body armor, you'll get an 06 FFL." 
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Originally Posted By Samson-Dogg: Lots of disinformation in this thread. US anodizing did not get jammed up solely for faux 3rd pin holes and neither did Brace. Not to mention he stopped doing that years ago.This was not about engraving or rewelding pieces of a machine gun or " once a machine gun always a machine gun". The pieces have no serial number therefore no traceability. There would be no way to prove in court what a certain magwell used to be. If you cant trace it you cant even prove it was real. My guess, and this is based off what I know about him being very careful not to cross any lines, is this was a message. Probably based on a bullshit statement from a CI that will never be produced. I believe I remember years ago something about ATF sending a letter telling him he needed an FFL. Keep in mind this was years ago so I do not remember details,and I have seen this happen so many times I could be confusing instances, but I believe that was around the same time he stopped colt engravings and faux 3rd pin holes. They probably decided it was time to send a stronger message. There could only be 2 reasons. 1) he did something that crossed the line, which I abolutely do not believe 2) this was a message. PMF's are a very contentious subject. You can have one DOJ employee that could care less about them and another who takes issue with them. I know examiners are all over the place. When I have a question or need clarification I get it in writting from FIPB counsel and/or HQ councel Through FIPB. As far as PMF"s go we absolutely do not work on them, cerakote them, engrave them or anything else. We do not take them in period. ATF does ths and they hope the target does not have the resources to fight it. If he doesnt they will say look you forfiet your property and never do it again and you can go on your way. 99% of people will take that deal in a heartbeat. I personally know a few people that have had this tactic used on them and when you have the federal government threatening most people will give in. I have seen a few people do this. I have seen a few FFL's with lawyers end up getting things dropped with very little opposition but you have to be preparred to call their bluff which means dealing with the consequences if they are not bluffing. In the end God knows what this was about. It is interesting that there is no information out there about it. I wish the best for him. I am not a fan of the government doing this to people of course. I am also wondering how we know they dug up the yard? Did someone actually see it or is it hersey? Dont get me wrong. I am 100% behind Brace. He was aways great in all my dealings with him. Its just a pattern I have seen. Almost always there was a warning somewhere baring exceptions where people were just flat idiots posting on social media which he was not. and yes I know he was not doing anything that needed an FFL that we know of. That does not stop ATF from trying to make you get one. PMF? |
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Originally Posted By Into_the_Void: PMF? Originally Posted By Into_the_Void: Originally Posted By Samson-Dogg: Lots of disinformation in this thread. US anodizing did not get jammed up solely for faux 3rd pin holes and neither did Brace. Not to mention he stopped doing that years ago.This was not about engraving or rewelding pieces of a machine gun or " once a machine gun always a machine gun". The pieces have no serial number therefore no traceability. There would be no way to prove in court what a certain magwell used to be. If you cant trace it you cant even prove it was real. My guess, and this is based off what I know about him being very careful not to cross any lines, is this was a message. Probably based on a bullshit statement from a CI that will never be produced. I believe I remember years ago something about ATF sending a letter telling him he needed an FFL. Keep in mind this was years ago so I do not remember details,and I have seen this happen so many times I could be confusing instances, but I believe that was around the same time he stopped colt engravings and faux 3rd pin holes. They probably decided it was time to send a stronger message. There could only be 2 reasons. 1) he did something that crossed the line, which I abolutely do not believe 2) this was a message. PMF's are a very contentious subject. You can have one DOJ employee that could care less about them and another who takes issue with them. I know examiners are all over the place. When I have a question or need clarification I get it in writting from FIPB counsel and/or HQ councel Through FIPB. As far as PMF"s go we absolutely do not work on them, cerakote them, engrave them or anything else. We do not take them in period. ATF does ths and they hope the target does not have the resources to fight it. If he doesnt they will say look you forfiet your property and never do it again and you can go on your way. 99% of people will take that deal in a heartbeat. I personally know a few people that have had this tactic used on them and when you have the federal government threatening most people will give in. I have seen a few people do this. I have seen a few FFL's with lawyers end up getting things dropped with very little opposition but you have to be preparred to call their bluff which means dealing with the consequences if they are not bluffing. In the end God knows what this was about. It is interesting that there is no information out there about it. I wish the best for him. I am not a fan of the government doing this to people of course. I am also wondering how we know they dug up the yard? Did someone actually see it or is it hersey? Dont get me wrong. I am 100% behind Brace. He was aways great in all my dealings with him. Its just a pattern I have seen. Almost always there was a warning somewhere baring exceptions where people were just flat idiots posting on social media which he was not. and yes I know he was not doing anything that needed an FFL that we know of. That does not stop ATF from trying to make you get one. PMF? Privately Made Firearm - you know, like we shot the British with this month, 250 years ago. |
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Originally Posted By Samson-Dogg: Lots of disinformation in this thread. US anodizing did not get jammed up solely for faux 3rd pin holes and neither did Brace. Not to mention he stopped doing that years ago.This was not about engraving or rewelding pieces of a machine gun or " once a machine gun always a machine gun". The pieces have no serial number therefore no traceability. There would be no way to prove in court what a certain magwell used to be. If you cant trace it you cant even prove it was real. My guess, and this is based off what I know about him being very careful not to cross any lines, is this was a message. Probably based on a bullshit statement from a CI that will never be produced. I believe I remember years ago something about ATF sending a letter telling him he needed an FFL. Keep in mind this was years ago so I do not remember details,and I have seen this happen so many times I could be confusing instances, but I believe that was around the same time he stopped colt engravings and faux 3rd pin holes. They probably decided it was time to send a stronger message. There could only be 2 reasons. 1) he did something that crossed the line, which I abolutely do not believe 2) this was a message. PMF's are a very contentious subject. You can have one DOJ employee that could care less about them and another who takes issue with them. I know examiners are all over the place. When I have a question or need clarification I get it in writting from FIPB counsel and/or HQ councel Through FIPB. As far as PMF"s go we absolutely do not work on them, cerakote them, engrave them or anything else. We do not take them in period. ATF does ths and they hope the target does not have the resources to fight it. If he doesnt they will say look you forfiet your property and never do it again and you can go on your way. 99% of people will take that deal in a heartbeat. I personally know a few people that have had this tactic used on them and when you have the federal government threatening most people will give in. I have seen a few people do this. I have seen a few FFL's with lawyers end up getting things dropped with very little opposition but you have to be preparred to call their bluff which means dealing with the consequences if they are not bluffing. In the end God knows what this was about. It is interesting that there is no information out there about it. I wish the best for him. I am not a fan of the government doing this to people of course. I am also wondering how we know they dug up the yard? Did someone actually see it or is it hersey? Dont get me wrong. I am 100% behind Brace. He was aways great in all my dealings with him. Its just a pattern I have seen. Almost always there was a warning somewhere baring exceptions where people were just flat idiots posting on social media which he was not. and yes I know he was not doing anything that needed an FFL that we know of. That does not stop ATF from trying to make you get one. Then what did Us Anodizing get warned about? Because quite a few here had their receivers taken by the ATF while they were at US anodizing for that exact reason. "#1 · Jan 25, 2017 I frequent the Retro AR/M16 forum on AR15.com and quite the controversy is brewing with a ATF representative (not clear of exact job title) who was conducting what was represented as a normal audit of an anodizing shop that is known for doing period correct gray anodizing. The Rep discovered a handful of receivers that had faux sear pins engraved into the lower, which in the AK world would be similar to a Y marking or faux third pin. Almost always, and for sure in this case the fake sear pin engraving is NOT in the correct location, and is offset from where the actual pin would go. Rep. confiscates the lowers for further determination and a month or so goes by. On Monday the user updated his thread that the ATF representative has made a determination that the faux sear pin now classifies the lower as a machine gun, but no intent to manufacture a machine gun. They want the owner to sign paperwork to okay the destruction of the lower and they will supposedly not further any investigation. Not only is this a head scratcher in of itself, but other major manufacturers such as Troy, and Colt have\are releasing retro models with faux sear pins that have been okay-ed by the ATF. :mad: I hope this "Representative" gets his ass handed to him with this bullshit determination. I will definitely update when and if any formal paperwork gets shared." |
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Originally Posted By Samson-Dogg: Lots of disinformation in this thread. US anodizing did not get jammed up solely for faux 3rd pin holes and neither did Brace. Not to mention he stopped doing that years ago.This was not about engraving or rewelding pieces of a machine gun or " once a machine gun always a machine gun". The pieces have no serial number therefore no traceability. There would be no way to prove in court what a certain magwell used to be. If you cant trace it you cant even prove it was real. My guess, and this is based off what I know about him being very careful not to cross any lines, is this was a message. Probably based on a bullshit statement from a CI that will never be produced. I believe I remember years ago something about ATF sending a letter telling him he needed an FFL. Keep in mind this was years ago so I do not remember details,and I have seen this happen so many times I could be confusing instances, but I believe that was around the same time he stopped colt engravings and faux 3rd pin holes. They probably decided it was time to send a stronger message. There could only be 2 reasons. 1) he did something that crossed the line, which I abolutely do not believe 2) this was a message. PMF's are a very contentious subject. You can have one DOJ employee that could care less about them and another who takes issue with them. I know examiners are all over the place. When I have a question or need clarification I get it in writting from FIPB counsel and/or HQ councel Through FIPB. As far as PMF"s go we absolutely do not work on them, cerakote them, engrave them or anything else. We do not take them in period. ATF does ths and they hope the target does not have the resources to fight it. If he doesnt they will say look you forfiet your property and never do it again and you can go on your way. 99% of people will take that deal in a heartbeat. I personally know a few people that have had this tactic used on them and when you have the federal government threatening most people will give in. I have seen a few people do this. I have seen a few FFL's with lawyers end up getting things dropped with very little opposition but you have to be preparred to call their bluff which means dealing with the consequences if they are not bluffing. In the end God knows what this was about. It is interesting that there is no information out there about it. I wish the best for him. I am not a fan of the government doing this to people of course. I am also wondering how we know they dug up the yard? Did someone actually see it or is it hersey? Dont get me wrong. I am 100% behind Brace. He was aways great in all my dealings with him. Its just a pattern I have seen. Almost always there was a warning somewhere baring exceptions where people were just flat idiots posting on social media which he was not. and yes I know he was not doing anything that needed an FFL that we know of. That does not stop ATF from trying to make you get one. Wait a minute, all the demilled M16 receivers that I have seen have serial numbers. And I believe Braceman was rewelding them. But if that was the problem it is a bullshit charge. |
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Originally Posted By kanjen95: No, not really. Really, thats the ONE guy that breathes life into real retro. I have 5 projects going with him. Originally Posted By kanjen95: Originally Posted By TGWLDR: Really? Find GD. No, not really. Really, thats the ONE guy that breathes life into real retro. I have 5 projects going with him. Then I have no understanding of your original post above. |
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Originally Posted By kanjen95: https://i.ibb.co/ynZRJ0dY/Screenshot-20250414-160806-Gallery.jpg" target="_blank">https://i.ibb.co/ynZRJ0dY/Screenshot-20250414-160806-Gallery.jpg Xm177e2 pieces are pretty rare. Yes, they are. |
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Originally Posted By gurn-blanston: I'm sure they showed up when he wasn't there on purpose. His wife was thrown off by their intimidating entrance, probably not familiar with his shop and anything he did and was coerced into allowing them to search well beyond their warrant. "I'm going to need to look in there" most people say "okay". Why are they flashbanging the house when the shop is in a separate area? Jerks Why flashbangs at all? |
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Originally Posted By trails-end: Why flashbangs at all? Originally Posted By trails-end: Originally Posted By gurn-blanston: I'm sure they showed up when he wasn't there on purpose. His wife was thrown off by their intimidating entrance, probably not familiar with his shop and anything he did and was coerced into allowing them to search well beyond their warrant. "I'm going to need to look in there" most people say "okay". Why are they flashbanging the house when the shop is in a separate area? Jerks Why flashbangs at all? Indeed! Thats for thugs, not a man who puts off add'l work to take his kids fishing and hunting during the seasons, like clockwork. |
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Originally Posted By trails-end: Why flashbangs at all? Originally Posted By trails-end: Originally Posted By gurn-blanston: I'm sure they showed up when he wasn't there on purpose. His wife was thrown off by their intimidating entrance, probably not familiar with his shop and anything he did and was coerced into allowing them to search well beyond their warrant. "I'm going to need to look in there" most people say "okay". Why are they flashbanging the house when the shop is in a separate area? Jerks Why flashbangs at all? That's the ATF for you. |
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Since this is wild west and all conjecture, why not put a point on it? They could have hit me and nobody cares. But, instead, they hit the hingepin of a community that minds it's own business. I am firm enough in my belief, that John is not a lawbreaker, that I'll gladly contribute to his defense. Further, I believe he should be recompensed for this egregious error. I think the ATF is full of shit and certain elements of it had a yee haw moment when Patel was dethroned. Id like to thinkthe military man in charge of ATF now doesnt support this. Im fine if the gov hands me over a sweet magwell to cover my loss. Yeah right. |
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Originally Posted By trails-end: Why flashbangs at all? Originally Posted By trails-end: Originally Posted By gurn-blanston: I'm sure they showed up when he wasn't there on purpose. His wife was thrown off by their intimidating entrance, probably not familiar with his shop and anything he did and was coerced into allowing them to search well beyond their warrant. "I'm going to need to look in there" most people say "okay". Why are they flashbanging the house when the shop is in a separate area? Jerks Why flashbangs at all? Thats a question that warrant signing judges need to start asking with a lot more vigor. And responding with "Excessive use of force - case dismissed. Department is liable for property damages" |
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Originally Posted By lazyengineer: Thats a question that warrant signing judges need to start asking with a lot more vigor. And responding with "Excessive use of force - case dismissed. Department is liable for property damages" 100%! The signing judge has no idea how the federal warrant will be executed, they are all boiler plate and say daylight hours, 6am to 10pm. So, yes, if agents were honest and put how the warrant was going to be executed, judges would be reluctant to sign a pre-dawn, no-knock raid. And the bar for a federal warrant is so low, probable cause is non-existent. They don't have probable cause of a crime, all they have is probable cause of a crime will be uncovered during the search. These tyrants need to be held accountable. And our ability to sue federal agencies needs to be changed too. What incentive do they have to adhere to the constitution? There is no recourse, they do whatever they want. |
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Originally Posted By REAPER2502: I really hate to add to the conjecture, but the guy in WV (or was it VA) got hemmed up for producing machine guns. I believe his name was John Kelley and he was taking demilled M14 receivers and making them functional again. Supposedly, his could not be converted to full auto capability along the lines of an M1A receiver. I can't recall if he was using two sections of demilled receiver or how his process went. As I recall he was using saw cut receiver halves that were legally demilled at the time of their destruction but didn't meet a later standard that required a third cut to ensure a missing piece of the receiver rail. He got shutdown and the ATF confiscated all of the receivers they could find. Apparently they were nice enough to allow those in possession to strip their completed rifles before surrendering the receivers. |
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Originally Posted By jm0502: One take away, If you plan to bury something rototill as much scrap metal as you can into the ground. I will be selling gaylords of metal chips for $3 per lb. Dig a deeper fucking hole, and not in your own backyard. |
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Originally Posted By kanjen95: Yeah, maybe. I take this very personally, and people say flippant stupid stuff. Myself included sometimes. |
Disclaimer - OP is bad at knowing things, and might catch on fire.
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 Ah, I gotta edit and tell you how bad tht made me feel. Now i cant stop thinking abt Timberlake. Still not gay. |
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Originally Posted By kanjen95: Yeah, maybe. I take this very personally, and people say flippant stupid stuff. Myself included sometimes. I'm also concerned about him. Not a whole lot of interaction with him but very similar interest. I am also a machinist and own a CNC Shop in michigan, I have made some retro parts, but a different focus than braceman, he does amazing work. I hope for the best outcome for him and would be happy to donate to him when we get a GSG set up for him. |
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Originally Posted By jm0502: One take away, If you plan to bury something rototill as much scrap metal as you can into the ground. I will be selling gaylords of metal chips for $3 per lb. Like the chips from the 80% lowers the ghost gunner milled sprinkled about the yard? |
That's no way for guys like us to go out. We should go out in the midst of a desperate battle, doing great deeds. - COL Rick Rescorla
| Based purely on the recent SC ruling, along with the chap in the Navy who is in jail now for a demilled RPG, I would guess the demilled MG mag wells once matedvto the back half of an 80 lower are probably what BATFE waived its wand and claiming are now MGs again. |
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Is Joe Biden still president and Steven Dettelbach still ATF director? Surreal. I have gotten work from John several times. For the newbies coming in here speculating and insinuating he was making complete lowers or MGs without a license, that is false. He only does rewelds to 80% lowers, that the customer must complete, or cloner engravings on 80% lowers, again the customer must complete. You send him scrap metal/not a firearm, and you receive scrap metal/not a firearm with some work done to it. |
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Originally Posted By Apec: Is Joe Biden still president and Steven Dettelbach still ATF director? Surreal. I have gotten work from John several times. For the newbies coming in here speculating and insinuating he was making complete lowers or MGs without a license, that is false. He only does rewelds to 80% lowers, that the customer must complete, or cloner engravings on 80% lowers, again the customer must complete. You send him scrap metal/not a firearm, and you receive scrap metal/not a firearm with some work done to it. Doesn't matter who is the current POTUS or ATF Director. They only set policy, it's the staff way down the chain at field that make those decisions enforcing the law as how they interpreted. |
Braceman raided by ATF. (Page 4 of 10)
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