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Posted: 1/23/2017 5:53:03 PM EDT
I have been informed by the BATF today, that a determination has been made regarding the receiver(s) in question with the sear pin engraving.
It has been determined a Machine Gun although they have decided that there was no "intent" on our parts in creating one.
I was told that no marking should be made in the area where the pin hole goes.
I will be getting a letter from them shortly that I will sign, surrendering said receiver to the BATF for destruction.

I did inquire why TROY is allowed to do this very same marking, but the agent didnt know, although he did say he'd try to find out.

Im not in the mood to argue this, bash the BATF, nor hypothesize about why, just passing on the information as it was given.

My suggestion:

DON'T DO IT! Not worth the hassle.
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 5:59:34 PM EDT
I'm sorry
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 6:00:50 PM EDT
Wow that blows sorry to hear that!
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 6:00:54 PM EDT
Im happy that its over.
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 6:04:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/23/2017 6:07:03 PM EDT by retroguy]
So NOW the ATF wants EVERYONE in the country to destroy their 80% lowers with that engraving eh? Does this now mean Retro Arms Works has to surrender records about any lowers it worked on since they are now "machineguns?" Do current owners in process of making 80% lowers into rifles now have to JBWeld their lowers before sending them out for anodizing?

The ATF just opened a can of worms for ZERO reason, not because they should, but because they could.

Unless they order Troy and Colt to stop, what does this mean for everyone else? How can they prove something was done before a certain date, especially since an 80% lower is not even a firearm yet?

I think the money needs to be followed back to where the order came from to have that agent "raid" US Anodizing and make an on the spot determination of law breaking in his or her mind only.

 I can truly see this one going to court. ATF has lost before. On this one, they WILL lose again, thus wasting more tax dollars merely to satisfy someone's ego, most likely a person who lost their job when Trump won.
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 6:09:33 PM EDT
37th,

Sorry for you to be the "example" for an ATF agent to show how large his peepee is. That sucks to no end. I would be furious to have something being done since the 80% market started turned into a "crime" by a faceless bureaucrat.
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 6:20:29 PM EDT
37th,


And what about the markings AUTO or BURST on lowers? Is that now also unlawful?
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 6:21:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 37thguy:
I have been informed by the BATF today, that a determination has been made regarding the receiver(s) in question with the sear pin engraving.
It has been determined a Machine Gun although they have decided that there was no "intent" on our parts in creating one.
I was told that no marking should be made in the area where the pin hole goes.
I will be getting a letter from them shortly that I will sign, surrendering said receiver to the BATF for destruction.

I did inquire why TROY is allowed to do this very same marking, but the agent didnt know, although he did say he'd try to find out.

Im not in the mood to argue this, bash the BATF, nor hypothesize about why, just passing on the information as it was given.

My suggestion:

DON'T DO IT! Not worth the hassle.
View Quote



was this documented or verbal?
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 6:41:09 PM EDT
Would the use of a neutered M16 selector also be "intent," as defined by the ATF? The ATF already said an M16 bolt carrier is okay to use back in May, 2008, but now isn't that ruling able to be overturned, again for "intent?"

I can almost bank on someone is going to take the ATF to court for the reasons I stated in my posts and more.

Again, the ATF opened a real can of worms with this bogus ruling, possibly as a last minute thumb in the eye of all gun owners by the outgoing Administration. And there is not a shred of doubt in my mind regarding that point.
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 6:42:38 PM EDT
I would request an appeal of the determination. As was stated by a previous poster, an 80% receiver is not even considered a gun until it is milled out.
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 6:59:42 PM EDT
So if you have an 80% with this engraving and it's been milled out, your supposed to turn it in? Is it considered a class 3 MG now?
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 7:37:28 PM EDT
From my understanding a Class 3 MG is either designed or modified in such a manner as to allow more than one shell to be fired on a trigger pull, there is no way in hell that engraving is going to allow the gun to function in the manner that would allow sustained fire with one pull of the trigger. Even with the engraving, you will have to pull the trigger each and every time you want to fire a round.

The determination is incorrect, which I why I would appeal and ask for a re determination of this finding. The surface engraving in no way modifies the receiver to fire any different than any other semi automatic sporting rifle.
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 7:45:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 37thguy:
I have been informed by the BATF today, that a determination has been made regarding the receiver(s) in question with the sear pin engraving.
It has been determined a Machine Gun although they have decided that there was no "intent" on our parts in creating one.
I was told that no marking should be made in the area where the pin hole goes.
I will be getting a letter from them shortly that I will sign, surrendering said receiver to the BATF for destruction.

I did inquire why TROY is allowed to do this very same marking, but the agent didnt know, although he did say he'd try to find out.

Im not in the mood to argue this, bash the BATF, nor hypothesize about why, just passing on the information as it was given.

My suggestion:

DON'T DO IT! Not worth the hassle.
View Quote


Don't sign it. It is not a machine gun...
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 7:50:48 PM EDT
That just ain't right.
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 8:09:37 PM EDT
Is there a link to an earlier thread?
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 8:13:49 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By UtahShotgunner:
Is there a link to an earlier thread?
View Quote
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 8:14:19 PM EDT
an engraving does not constitute a hole that can have a pin inserted. an engraving does not allow a semi to be converted to auto.


The ATF is wrong if they are saying what you posted. did they misunderstand what you were saying?
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 8:14:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 37thguy:
I have been informed by the BATF today, that a determination has been made regarding the receiver(s) in question with the sear pin engraving.
It has been determined a Machine Gun although they have decided that there was no "intent" on our parts in creating one.
I was told that no marking should be made in the area where the pin hole goes.
I will be getting a letter from them shortly that I will sign, surrendering said receiver to the BATF for destruction.

I did inquire why TROY is allowed to do this very same marking, but the agent didnt know, although he did say he'd try to find out.

Im not in the mood to argue this, bash the BATF, nor hypothesize about why, just passing on the information as it was given.

My suggestion:

DON'T DO IT! Not worth the hassle.
View Quote


Total bullshit.
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 8:15:50 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 8:16:33 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By UtahShotgunner:
Is there a link to an earlier thread?
View Quote
This.  I have no idea what engraving we are talking about that could = mg when the rifle is mechanically incapable of firing more than 1 round per trigger function.
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 8:17:11 PM EDT
What a load of crap! Somebody needs to fight that!
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 8:17:44 PM EDT
Total BS! I would fight it. On another note, Is it possible that the Colt & Troy copies have a sear block, thus adding one more hindrence to FA conversion? Does someone here have a Troy that they can chime in on?
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 8:20:06 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DaveP1:
I would request an appeal of the determination. As was stated by a previous poster, an 80% receiver is not even considered a gun until it
is milled out.
View Quote


Most atf agents do consider 80% paper weights firearms.
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 8:22:43 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By M16indiana:
Total BS! I would fight it. On another note, Is it possible that the Colt & Troy copies have a sear block, thus adding one more hindrence to FA conversion? Does someone here have a Troy that they can chime in on?
View Quote


I know the troy has a search block but not sure about the colt.
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 8:32:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/23/2017 8:48:24 PM EDT by garr]
Can someone please post some photos of what you guys are talking about to make it a bit clearer for those here who are not up on this.

PS:This is really bullshit, sounds like it's another big "Fuck You" from the outgoing commie administration, lets hope the new BATFE director purges all the commie scum in that place out fast!
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 8:32:56 PM EDT
WTF
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 8:36:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/23/2017 8:37:03 PM EDT by pool_shark]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By garr:
Can someone please post some photos of what you guys are talking about to make it a bit clearer for those here who are not up on this.
View Quote


http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1944580_UH-OH--BATF-involved-with-US-Anodizers.html&page=1

ETA: Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 8:36:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/23/2017 8:38:21 PM EDT by Rickysharon]
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 8:40:14 PM EDT
That is a lame ass decision of epic proportions So sorry 37thguy. Braceman had my GM front half that he was welding to a 80% when the news broke out. I immediately contacted him and had him not do the engraving for the faux sear hole. What kind of receiver was it that you lost?

PS
FBATFE
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 8:41:50 PM EDT
garr,

Some of us have engraved or otherwise marked a little circle on the lower it the place where the sear pin would go if the lower was an automatic. The marking in no way changes the function of the lower, it is strictly decorative. And in fact it doesn't even serve as a good locating feature if one was inclined to drill the sear pin hole; a center mark would be much more useful.

It's all BS brought to you by an uninformed bureaucracy
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 8:42:33 PM EDT
You got a signed letter from the atf on this or just some new agent out there making a name for himself saying so?
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 8:47:37 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By David_4x4:
You got a signed letter from the atf on this or just some new agent out there making a name for himself saying so?
View Quote
Where is the LIKE button?

+1
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 9:49:10 PM EDT
Somebody definitely needs to take them to court over this. A purely decorative, non-functional marking on a semi-auto lower does NOT turn it into a machine gun!
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 9:52:48 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By David_4x4:
You got a signed letter from the atf on this or just some new agent out there making a name for himself saying so?
View Quote

Agreed, if this is a signed letter from tech branch the implications are troublesome. If it's just some agent or official's verbal word that's insane that such things are being treated as law now. ATF's ability to unilaterally make up stuff as they go along without oversight needs to go.
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 9:56:30 PM EDT
Its truly hard to imagine that a technical branch evaluation was done to truly determine if it meets the normal criteria for ease of fabricating it into a machinegun.

In reality it can be changed into a full auto no easier than any other AR15 - and was this on an 80% lower as well or legally a hunk of aluminum and not a receiver??
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 10:07:57 PM EDT
Wow that's total bullshit.

Like mentioned above, is this determination in writing?
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 10:12:32 PM EDT
37,

You made the right choice--it's easier.

I read your prior thread--please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you said you machined the lower to M-16 rather than AR-15 specs? And it was engraved where the auto sear would go.

Troy likely has their lowers AR-15 spec--i don't know, I've never seen one in person. But the difference: drill a hole in the engraved auto sear hole with an M16 spec lower & you drop in an auto sear. Time? Maybe 5 minutes with a hand drill or drill press. Sure, it's easier with one of the jigs or templates they sell to mark the area--but with the engraving already there?

With an AR-15 spec lower, you drill out the etching and have to know how to mill the rest of the lower to fit an auto sear. Time? It depends on if you know what you're doing & have access to something that can serve as a verticals mill.

It's goofy--I don't remember who, but there were 2 companies selling M16 lowers without the auto sear hole as of a couple years ago. Heck, the early ARs Colt made were the same M16 lower, just no 3rd hole. Moreover, it's "capricious," I believe is the term lawyers use. It's BS!

Again--just a guess. Glad it wasn't more expensive for you, OP.
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 10:12:37 PM EDT
What a kick in the balls. I wonder how many lowers were seized?
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 10:13:09 PM EDT
I'd even go so far as to say that a lower with a third hole, but with no FA parts in the owners possession is not a machine gun. 

If if you have a semi LPK and a semi BCG there is no way it is a machine gun. If you own a sear then that is a different story. 

Just  because the ATF says so doesn't make it a violation of the law. Prosecutors and judges have the final say. 
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 10:13:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/23/2017 10:13:54 PM EDT by StevieJ309]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By cherenkov:
Its truly hard to imagine that a technical branch evaluation was done to truly determine if it meets the normal criteria for ease of fabricating it into a machinegun.

In reality it can be changed into a full auto no easier than any other AR15 - and was this on an 80% lower as well or legally a hunk of aluminum and not a receiver??
View Quote


Is it really that hard to imagine though? This is the ATF after all.

This was never going to end well once the ATF got involved.
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 10:13:28 PM EDT
NOLO paging NOLO to the white courtesy phone.
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 10:14:41 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Engineer5:
NOLO paging NOLO to the white courtesy phone.
View Quote


@NoloContendere
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 10:15:36 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Engineer5:
NOLO paging NOLO to the white courtesy phone.
View Quote


Let's see if this still works.

@NoloContendere
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 10:39:47 PM EDT
I thought that it was decide a few years ago that the sear engraving was ok as long as it didn't go past a certain depth.
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 10:40:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/23/2017 10:47:47 PM EDT by DaveP1]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 32ACP:
37,

You made the right choice--it's easier.

I read your prior thread--please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you said you machined the lower to M-16 rather than AR-15 specs? And it was engraved where the auto sear would go.

Troy likely has their lowers AR-15 spec--i don't know, I've never seen one in person. But the difference: drill a hole in the engraved auto sear hole with an M16 spec lower & you drop in an auto sear. Time? Maybe 5 minutes with a hand drill or drill press. Sure, it's easier with one of the jigs or templates they sell to mark the area--but with the engraving already there?

With an AR-15 spec lower, you drill out the etching and have to know how to mill the rest of the lower to fit an auto sear. Time? It depends on if you know what you're doing & have access to something that can serve as a verticals mill.

It's goofy--I don't remember who, but there were 2 companies selling M16 lowers without the auto sear hole as of a couple years ago. Heck, the early ARs Colt made were the same M16 lower, just no 3rd hole. Moreover, it's "capricious," I believe is the term lawyers use. It's BS!

Again--just a guess. Glad it wasn't more expensive for you, OP.
View Quote


I have not seen any of the later engravings that are etched in the correct spot to put the 3rd pin, they are offset a small amount, which is all it takes, you can't just eyeball the 3rd pin hole and get it right normally. If you were to drill the 3rd hole, it would be in the wrong place.

As an 80% lower, the FCG with maybe the exception of the take down pin pocket is not machined, so no determination of what it is can be made. Based on current published regulations and laws, it is not a machine gun and there has been no intent to make it a machine gun.

It is not hard to make any AR into a machine gun, there are 3 normal ways, RDIAS, Lightning Link, or actually drilling and milling the pocket as well as the holes to accept the full auto FCG components in absence of these items, it is not a class 3 firearm.

If they didn't issue a written determination from the Tech Department, then it is an agent trying to flex his muscles and it has very strong implications on the retro/clone business, a determination of this nature if left to stand could and probably would change the whole scope of the business. This is why it needs to be appealed and request another in depth determination and it has to be in writing, with the exact reasons it was determined to be a Machine gun. That said, if the sear hole had been drilled, it does not matter what other parts are present, it is a machine gun, you don't have to have the actual parts to make it functional.

I know the BATF can fuck with us in many different ways, but this is a bullshit fuck of the worst kind and should not be allowed to just fade into the sunset.

As it sits right now, it is not even a gun, it is a paperweight, and that is all it is. Also, because there is a commercial business that is involved, if it was truly determined to be a Class III firearm, they would be arresting the proprietor of the shop and would charge him with manufacture of illegal Class III firearms.
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 10:40:45 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Justice23:
I'd even go so far as to say that a lower with a third hole, but with no FA parts in the owners possession is not a machine gun. 

If if you have a semi LPK and a semi BCG there is no way it is a machine gun. If you own a sear then that is a different story. 

Just  because the ATF says so doesn't make it a violation of the law. Prosecutors and judges have the final say. 
View Quote
Unfortunately the way the law is written a machinegun reciever is a machinegun by itself, no additional parts required.
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 10:46:48 PM EDT
When they send you the letter(s) post them. Call the bluff.
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 10:51:14 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Justice23:
I'd even go so far as to say that a lower with a third hole, but with no FA parts in the owners possession is not a machine gun. 

If if you have a semi LPK and a semi BCG there is no way it is a machine gun. If you own a sear then that is a different story. 

Just  because the ATF says so doesn't make it a violation of the law. Prosecutors and judges have the final say. 
View Quote


If you put the third hole in, whether you have the FA parts or no other part at all, you have made a machine gun. That is why the only regulated part is the bare over 80% finished lower receiver. If you mark an 80% with the hammer and trigger pin positions, JUST MARK THEM, it's over 80% and a firearm. Adding the third pin is asking for ATF reaction of the worst kind. THE RECEIVER IS THE FIREARM, NOTHING ELSE! You have stated your opinion here, and I respect that, but there is a ton of precedent that the ATF will fall back on to open a case of anal rape on you.
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 10:58:39 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DaveP1:


I have not seen any of the later engravings that are etched in the correct spot to put the 3rd pin, they are offset a small amount, which is all it takes, you can't just eyeball the 3rd pin hole and get it right normally. If you were to drill the 3rd hole, it would be in the wrong place.

As an 80% lower, the FCG with maybe the exception of the take down pin pocket is not machined, so no determination of what it is can be made. Based on current published regulations and laws, it is not a machine gun and there has been no intent to make it a machine gun.

It is not hard to make any AR into a machine gun, there are 3 normal ways, RDIAS, Lightning Link, or actually drilling and milling the pocket as well as the holes to accept the full auto FCG components in absence of these items, it is not a class 3 firearm.

If they didn't issue a written determination from the Tech Department, then it is an agent trying to flex his muscles and it has very strong implications on the retro/clone business, a determination of this nature if left to stand could and probably would change the whole scope of the business. This is why it needs to be appealed and request another in depth determination and it has to be in writing, with the exact reasons it was determined to be a Machine gun. That said, if the sear hole had been drilled, it does not matter what other parts are present, it is a machine gun, you don't have to have the actual parts to make it functional.

I know the BATF can fuck with us in many different ways, but this is a bullshit fuck of the worst kind and should not be allowed to just fade into the sunset.

As it sits right now, it is not even a gun, it is a paperweight, and that is all it is. Also, because there is a commercial business that is involved, if it was truly determined to be a Class III firearm, they would be arresting the proprietor of the shop and would charge him with manufacture of illegal Class III firearms.
View Quote


The sear pin hole isn't a critical dimension. In practice it will run if within about .075. there's a bit of slop in the engagement surfaces, and generally nothing bad happens if the hammer trips slightly before the bolt is fully locked because of the speed of the bolt. It may not run reliably, but a machine gun needent run 100% to be legally a machine gun. I'm sure someone with more experience can give the actual armalite specs.

And this is a hell of a stretch by the ATF. It sounds like a field agent going out on a limb. I want to see the determination write-up, however, they have been going hardcore on index and witness marks recently.
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 10:58:44 PM EDT
No, engraving on the outside of the receiver does not mean you have gone over 80% if it were, then companies would not be able to legally sell them with the engraving already on them, you can legally buy a lower receiver with the Safe, Fire and Auto markings on them and they are not considered a gun, you have to start the process to actually mill the FCG pocket out in order to go over the 80% threshold. The take down pin pocket with the engraving can be present on the lower and it is still considered an 80% lower.
Link Posted: 1/23/2017 11:06:35 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By awptickes:


The sear pin hole isn't a critical dimension. In practice it will run if within about .075. there's a bit of slop in the engagement surfaces, and generally nothing bad happens if the hammer trips slightly before the bolt is fully locked because of the speed of the bolt. It may not run reliably, but a machine gun needent run 100% to be legally a machine gun. I'm sure someone with more experience can give the actual armalite specs.

And this is a hell of a stretch by the ATF. It sounds like a field agent going out on a limb. I want to see the determination write-up, however, they have been going hardcore on index and witness marks recently.
View Quote


It is more critical than you think, between the 3rd hole and small manufacturing errors in the components you could end up with a gun that will not work. Quarter Bore's website has some pretty good information included on it about true factory guns as well as registered converted guns.

I agree, this one is a hell of a stretch by ATF. It is important as it has very broad implications in the retro business.
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