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Posted: 12/26/2021 11:44:34 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By PvtCowboy: What I asked for was dead nuts on period correct furniture for early M16 family guns. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By PvtCowboy: What I asked for was dead nuts on period correct furniture for early M16 family guns. You asked for a bit more than that: Originally Posted By PvtCowboy: Also picking up where Brownells left off when they gave up on producing period correct AR-10 furniture. THAT is the niche market Brownells gave up on, and one I am not anxious to see H&R rush into. If H&R is going to produce an authentic semi-auto H&R M-16A1, and we have every reason to believe that to be the case, given who've they've hired to lead that effort, then you could expect sales of the small parts as well. Why not wait & see what they can do? |
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CHE
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Posted: 12/27/2021 12:27:54 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mike_nds: They don't tell the stories to protect themselves and the industry. Because the best ones aren't always flattering.  Plus, many companies have NDA's. FAC went under because the owner spent more on print advertising than getting in products to sell. It was truly that simple. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mike_nds: Originally Posted By LucasHood: It really is an interesting subject, particularly from a historical standpoint. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who feels this way. The retro forum seems like a great place for this type of discussion, particularly given the interest in historical firearms preservation and knowledge, here. In particular, I find the destruction of Remington and the rest of the companies Cerberus/Freedom Group swallowed up and destroyed to be particularly interesting, and truly a damn shame. I was initially pretty happy to see PSA pick a few of the ashes of AAC and DPMS from the bankruptcy sale, just as they've done with H and R, after Freedom destroyed Marlin. I realize those involved are sometimes hesitant to talk about these things, often times because they aren't motivated to do so, but it truly is a shame, because this type of stuff winds up lost to history. The very thing many of the quite brilliant and talented members of this forum try to prevent. While I don't post very often, I am truly amazed and in awe at some of the wonderful historical knowledge and findings of the members of the retro forum. FAC sure did some interesting things. It was crazy to see them vanish so quickly. I must have gotten 1000 of their catalogs and then one day they just stopped and suddenly Fed Arms was no more. They don't tell the stories to protect themselves and the industry. Because the best ones aren't always flattering. Plus, many companies have NDA's. FAC went under because the owner spent more on print advertising than getting in products to sell. It was truly that simple. Jamin saying "yeah, it was interesting touring the ashes of AAC, there wasn't much left" or similar, is a story he could tell. Maybe an anecdote you recall from your time at FAC... that's an example of something you could tell. Obviously I don't expect you to divulge trade secrets or violate NDAs... That goes without saying and I have no doubt he's smart enough to word his stories in such a way to avoid any trouble, as I believe you are too. Totally understand about the good ones being non-flattering though and I'd never want to pressure anyone into talking about anything that makes them uncomfortable. I guess I'm just feeling sentimental about the death of Remington and all the companies FG swallowed up. Pretty sad to see that sort of thing happen and I'm sure you're no stranger to it, being in the industry. Interesting (and succinct) way of explaining FAC's demise. Guess it makes sense lol. Back in the day, there seemed to be more talk of FAC's products, than encounters with FAC's products, so I'm not surprised.  (By the way, you technically just told us an industry story and you didn't even have to violate an NDA to do it.)  |
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CHE
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Posted: 12/27/2021 12:46:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: LucasHood]
[#3]
Oh, and Mike, we can we expect the H and R line of rollerlocks?
 Given H and R's history, the members of Arfcom await the new H and R MP5, HK33 and the rest of the family. I've seen you hand polish receivers. I'm sure you can handle it when those stamping dies start calling your name.  I know the both of you know this, but it'd be a license to print money, if they were affordable. Just be sure to give them PSA pricing and you'd never be able to keep them in stock. Or maybe we could talk them into giving you an extra million and you could oversee the project at PSA...
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Posted: 12/27/2021 7:13:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: mike_nds]
[#4]
Initially, we will have to utilize off the shelf components from vendors you all know.
There’s no way around it. We’re going to need to have a lot of stuff refinished. Parkerized vs blued.  I’m going to concentrate on the receivers and barrels first, as those are the things we can make in house. |
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Posted: 12/27/2021 7:35:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: mike_nds]
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LucasHood: Oh, and Mike, we can we expect the H and R line of rollerlocks? Here’s the short answer, with an FAC story rolled in. Don’t hold your breath on roller locked guns. I have too many other things to get going to dive down that rabbit hole. My first job at FAC was to build up the reminents of the Hesse H91 rifle program. It was 151 barreled actions and associated parts. The shelf for the trigger packs were welded in a touch low, and the receivers were “diamonded”. I had to straighten the receivers with a variety of methods including the liberal use of a dead blow hammer. The cocking tubes were also not welded in at a precise distance from the trunion. (Too long) This necessitated fitting the cocking cylinders. Most of which had a ring of weld at the front to give them extra length. Because the trigger packs were a touch low the ejectors had to be bent and fitted to kick the cases out. Out of all those rifles we only got 2 back. And that was because they had sticky chambers due to corrosion. |
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USA
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Posted: 12/27/2021 8:10:26 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mike_nds: Here’s the short answer, with an FAC story rolled in. Don’t hold your breath on roller locked guns. I have too many other things to get going to dive down that rabbit hole. My first job at FAC was to build up the reminents of the Hesse H91 rifle program. It was 151 barreled actions and associated parts. The shelf for the trigger packs were welded in a touch low, and the receivers were “diamonded”. I had to straighten the receivers with a variety of methods including the liberal use of a dead blow hammer. The cocking tubes were also not welded in at a precise distance from the trunion. (Too long) This necessitated fitting the cocking cylinders. Most of which had a ring of weld at the front to give them extra length. Because the trigger packs were a touch low the ejectors had to be bent and fitted to kick the cases out. Out of all those rifles we only got 2 back. And that was because they had sticky chambers due to corrosion. Ah Yes - I did a Hesse when they first came out and sent my Trigger pack to Dan Coonan to swap to semi - Spent a lot of time with hammer and mallett banging it strait LOL. What we did in the 90s to get an H&K clone. Back then an HK91 mag cost almost $100 for an original steel mag! Beleive it or not - Still have that build and it runs like a champ for decades - never a problem. |
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Posted: 12/27/2021 8:44:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: mike_nds]
[#7]
Yeah, that trigger pack conversion took some work.
I never cut them, but did assemble/fix a few. Bending that one spring was a trick. ETA: the top half of an HK is pretty simple. The trigger pack is  |
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Posted: 12/27/2021 10:39:40 AM EDT
[#8]
Can we expect barrels to be phosphate/chrome lined?
Also, will they be 1/12 or 1/7? I would prefer the latter, but can understand why the former may be selected. |
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UKR
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Posted: 12/27/2021 2:01:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: WildBill375]
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Sputnik556: Can we expect barrels to be phosphate/chrome lined? Also, will they be 1/12 or 1/7? I would prefer the latter, but can understand why the former may be selected. This. Pencil profiled, chrome lining, in a 1/12 twist, with rifle barrel extensions, and A1/A2 FSB would be amazing. |
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ND, USA
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Posted: 12/27/2021 3:04:46 PM EDT
[#10]
A regular supply of A1 lowers and uppers will change things in the retro market in a hurry. My only hope for H&R after those, is an aluminum CAR-15 stock. Those things tie a retro carbine together like a big red bow.
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USA
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Posted: 12/27/2021 3:23:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: JTM20]
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NoDakWolfPack: A regular supply of A1 lowers and uppers will change things in the retro market in a hurry. My only hope for H&R after those, is an aluminum CAR-15 stock. Those things tie a retro carbine together like a big red bow. A steady stream of quality, in spec uppers, lowers and pencil barrels from H&R will do wonders for the retro market. Make the receivers grey anodized and the barrels chrome lined and phosphated and they'll have some very happy customers. |
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Posted: 12/27/2021 8:12:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: mike_nds]
[#12]
All retro barrels will be parked/chrome. Rifle extension/FSB
These are the ones I want to do. 20" 1/12 12.7" 1/12 (with and w/o P/W FH) 14.7" 1/7 w/P/W FH |
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Posted: 12/27/2021 8:22:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Sputnik556]
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mike_nds: All retro barrels will be parked/chrome. Rifle extension/FSB These are the ones I want to do. 20" 1/12 12.7" 1/12 (with and w/o P/W FH) 14.7" 1/7 w/P/W FH Awesome, any plans for 11.5? |
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Posted: 12/27/2021 8:46:43 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Sputnik556: Awesome, any plans for 11.5? Maybe later. I want to keep the lineup tight and practical. |
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Posted: 12/27/2021 8:50:20 PM EDT
[#15]
Got the stuff back from Victor today. This is the rifle that will be at SHOT.
It's a mix of new and old parts so don't get wrapped around the axle over the components.   
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OH, USA
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Posted: 12/27/2021 9:11:18 PM EDT
[#16]
This is my favorite thread of the year.
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USA
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Posted: 12/27/2021 9:19:32 PM EDT
[#17]
Mike
Sample rifle looks good! Mix of old and new components doesn't really matter to me. I am just happy that you are going to be making the components to build the rifles with. Question, so you are planning on producing the receivers and the barrels. Is there any of the smaller components you are consider producing? There is no one making quality reproduction furniture for the rifles For example Type E buttstock, A1 handguards and A1 grip |
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Posted: 12/27/2021 9:31:10 PM EDT
[#18]
Very nice, Mike.
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Posted: 12/27/2021 9:39:45 PM EDT
[#19]
Mike,
The gun looks amazing, I’m going to order one the first chance I get. Hopefully a low serial # in a HR branded box. The ano, fit and finish of the parts looks so freaking good. I’m very happy for you @ the new venture. C |
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ND, USA
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Posted: 12/27/2021 9:54:32 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SmegHead: This is my favorite thread of the year. Same |
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Posted: 12/27/2021 10:18:54 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mike_nds: Got the stuff back from Victor today. This is the rifle that will be at SHOT. It's a mix of new and old parts so don't get wrapped around the axle over the components. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/91277/SHOT_M16A1_left_close-2218991.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/91277/SHOT_M16A1_right-2218992.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/91277/SHOT_M16A1_left-2218994.jpg That looks fantastic. |
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MA, USA
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Posted: 12/27/2021 10:27:11 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mike_nds: All retro barrels will be parked/chrome. Rifle extension/FSB These are the ones I want to do. 20" 1/12 12.7" 1/12 (with and w/o P/W FH) 14.7" 1/7 w/P/W FH For the 12.7" (and hopefully eventual 11.5") barrels: Would you consider making them like the original Colt Commando barrels- slightly thicker profile/less step-down forward of the gas block with no flare at the muzzle? |
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Posted: 12/27/2021 10:37:24 PM EDT
[#23]
Mike,
Have you experimented with variables on the CNC engraving? I know you can't displace material up or out like a rollmark would, but could you make variances in depth across the whole engraving, similar to how rollmarks are on a lot of older Colts? I don't know how much extra it would cost or how hard that would be to program into a CNC machine, just thinking out loud. I'd love to see the company that was roll marking the more recent H&R stuff sell that setup to PSA for a fair price to make these more accurate for customers. |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 12/27/2021 10:58:22 PM EDT
[#24]
I have been out of the Retro game for some some time, but still follow the forum on occasion.
Mike’s image of the Shot Show prototype has reinvigorated and rejuvenated my interest. I find myself quite excited in anticipation of what awaits on the horizon. |
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Posted: 12/27/2021 11:15:02 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Esquilax88: For the 12.7" (and hopefully eventual 11.5") barrels: Would you consider making them like the original Colt Commando barrels- slightly thicker profile/less step-down forward of the gas block with no flare at the muzzle? I have that info, and plan to do it that way. |
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CHE
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Posted: 12/27/2021 11:24:30 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mike_nds: Here's the short answer, with an FAC story rolled in. Don't hold your breath on roller locked guns. I have too many other things to get going to dive down that rabbit hole. My first job at FAC was to build up the reminents of the Hesse H91 rifle program. It was 151 barreled actions and associated parts. The shelf for the trigger packs were welded in a touch low, and the receivers were "diamonded". I had to straighten the receivers with a variety of methods including the liberal use of a dead blow hammer. The cocking tubes were also not welded in at a precise distance from the trunion. (Too long) This necessitated fitting the cocking cylinders. Most of which had a ring of weld at the front to give them extra length. Because the trigger packs were a touch low the ejectors had to be bent and fitted to kick the cases out. Out of all those rifles we only got 2 back. And that was because they had sticky chambers due to corrosion. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mike_nds: Originally Posted By LucasHood: Oh, and Mike, we can we expect the H and R line of rollerlocks? Here's the short answer, with an FAC story rolled in. Don't hold your breath on roller locked guns. I have too many other things to get going to dive down that rabbit hole. My first job at FAC was to build up the reminents of the Hesse H91 rifle program. It was 151 barreled actions and associated parts. The shelf for the trigger packs were welded in a touch low, and the receivers were "diamonded". I had to straighten the receivers with a variety of methods including the liberal use of a dead blow hammer. The cocking tubes were also not welded in at a precise distance from the trunion. (Too long) This necessitated fitting the cocking cylinders. Most of which had a ring of weld at the front to give them extra length. Because the trigger packs were a touch low the ejectors had to be bent and fitted to kick the cases out. Out of all those rifles we only got 2 back. And that was because they had sticky chambers due to corrosion. I have to admit I was tempted many times by those HK 91 clones at FAC, but ultimately talked myself out of them every time, due to the receivers. Made the company a bit of a curiosity to me though lol. The cocking tube issue in particular would have bugged me but I guess it could have made a good enough beater. Their prices made that tempting at times.
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CHE
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Posted: 12/27/2021 11:33:17 PM EDT
[#27]
Mike, you guys planning to have new furniture made up, or sticking with off the shelf products for now?
I'd also make the suggestion of offering receivers in black, given how many people prefer it, with the added benefit that you can probably utilize PSA's anodizing sources, as opposed to waiting on Victor. Not to mention the fact that some people don't want to give him money. (Not trying to turn the thread into a discussion on that. Just pointing it out.) |
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NH, USA
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Posted: 12/28/2021 12:05:27 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mike_nds: I have that info, and plan to do it that way. Awesome! Barrels like that are impossible to find. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 12:25:16 AM EDT
[#29]
I realize that you’ve got enough going on to keep you occupied for some time, but do you have any desire to do transitional “retro” models in the future like 723s, 727s, M16A2s, etc.?
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Posted: 12/28/2021 1:45:28 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Sputnik556: I realize that you’ve got enough going on to keep you occupied for some time, but do you have any desire to do transitional “retro” models in the future like 723s, 727s, M16A2s, etc.? H&R M16A2 M16A4 M4 M4A1
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UKR
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Posted: 12/28/2021 5:11:26 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mike_nds: All retro barrels will be parked/chrome. Rifle extension/FSB These are the ones I want to do. 20" 1/12 12.7" 1/12 (with and w/o P/W FH) 14.7" 1/7 w/P/W FH 
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Posted: 12/28/2021 6:43:00 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Sputnik556: I realize that you’ve got enough going on to keep you occupied for some time, but do you have any desire to do transitional “retro” models in the future like 723s, 727s, M16A2s, etc.? Yes |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 6:50:23 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LucasHood: Mike, you guys planning to have new furniture made up, or sticking with off the shelf products for now? I'd also make the suggestion of offering receivers in black, given how many people prefer it, with the added benefit that you can probably utilize PSA's anodizing sources, as opposed to waiting on Victor. Not to mention the fact that some people don't want to give him money. (Not trying to turn the thread into a discussion on that. Just pointing it out.) As stated earlier in the thread, we have to use off the shelf parts to get this started. There is no way around it. PSA can do black ano easy enough. My midterm goal is to get another, smaller anodizing line set up in house for gray. |
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NJ, USA
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Posted: 12/28/2021 10:29:27 AM EDT
[#34]
The new H&R M16A1 looks like the one I had in Basic training. Great work Mike!!
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MI, USA
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Posted: 12/28/2021 4:39:26 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mike_nds: Yes Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mike_nds: Originally Posted By Sputnik556: I realize that you’ve got enough going on to keep you occupied for some time, but do you have any desire to do transitional “retro” models in the future like 723s, 727s, M16A2s, etc.? Yes Are you going to get A2 uppers forged again? They have become expensive vaporware elsewhere. |
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NM, USA
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Posted: 12/28/2021 6:01:39 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RedFox1911: Are you going to get A2 uppers forged again? They have become expensive vaporware elsewhere. I got my fingers crossed that they will be C7 uppers! |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 6:25:52 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RedFox1911: Are you going to get A2 uppers forged again? They have become expensive vaporware elsewhere. Well we would have to if we are going to do A2 rifles.
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CO, USA
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Posted: 12/28/2021 7:30:56 PM EDT
[#38]
You have a buyer for a 11.5" 1/7 here!
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Posted: 12/28/2021 8:24:57 PM EDT
[#39]
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MI, USA
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Posted: 12/28/2021 9:00:46 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mike_nds: Well we would have to if we are going to do A2 rifles. Cool. Some people want to cheat with flat tops with detachable carry handles.
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ND, USA
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Posted: 12/28/2021 9:44:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: NoDakWolfPack]
[#41]
I’ve already got my 601 clone. I need a A1 and A2 rifle, and C7 upper (or full C7 carbine). I’m in no rush, so I’ll wait for the H&R versions.
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ND, USA
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Posted: 12/28/2021 10:58:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: NoDakWolfPack]
[#42]
Actually, I would also like to clone the slick-sided SP-1 with an A1 flash hider and phosphate bcg.
Will you be making slick sided A1 uppers? In addition to the teardop FA uppers? |
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CHE
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Posted: 12/29/2021 1:43:49 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mike_nds: As stated earlier in the thread, we have to use off the shelf parts to get this started. There is no way around it. PSA can do black ano easy enough. My midterm goal is to get another, smaller anodizing line set up in house for gray. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mike_nds: Originally Posted By LucasHood: Mike, you guys planning to have new furniture made up, or sticking with off the shelf products for now? I'd also make the suggestion of offering receivers in black, given how many people prefer it, with the added benefit that you can probably utilize PSA's anodizing sources, as opposed to waiting on Victor. Not to mention the fact that some people don't want to give him money. (Not trying to turn the thread into a discussion on that. Just pointing it out.) As stated earlier in the thread, we have to use off the shelf parts to get this started. There is no way around it. PSA can do black ano easy enough. My midterm goal is to get another, smaller anodizing line set up in house for gray. I'm a buyer when PSA does them in black. When you get your in house gray set up, I'm in for that too. Would be nice to see PSA maybe do a more moderately priced line of retro basics (complete rifles, barrels, uppers... things that don't sit on shelves long) under their own name, while H and R becomes the more dedicated retro line, with greater selection. I'm sure that's the plan anyway, to some degree or the other. (Don't worry, I'm not asking you to make a decision here or anything lol, I'm sure that's up to Jamin/JJE and crew. Just musing.) Many of us have been trying to persuade PSA for years in their forum to venture into the retro arena. Glad to see them start heading down that road. |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 2:22:13 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NoDakWolfPack: Actually, I would also like to clone the slick-sided SP-1 with an A1 flash hider and phosphate bcg. Will you be making slick sided A1 uppers? In addition to the teardop FA uppers? Yes, we will be making a 604 type upper. |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 2:46:25 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NoDakWolfPack: A regular supply of A1 lowers and uppers will change things in the retro market in a hurry. My only hope for H&R after those, is an aluminum CAR-15 stock. Those things tie a retro carbine together like a big red bow. DoubleStar has you covered -- they took over the production from Essential Arms. https://doublestarusa.com/ace-essential-retro-coated-aluminum-car-buttstock-without-buffer-spring-a128 |
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GA, USA
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Posted: 12/29/2021 4:15:52 AM EDT
[#46]
Handi-Rifles and Toppers.
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AL, USA
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Posted: 12/29/2021 5:14:29 AM EDT
[#47]
You could always make a run of M-16A1’s in black, stamp ANAD on the mag well, and call them retro rebuilds. Win win!
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WA, USA
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Posted: 12/29/2021 10:29:42 AM EDT
[#48]
Hell, I don’t care what color your M16A1 and XM16E1 lower receivers are. I’d be glad to buy several in the white!!
Seriously, I’m surprised that some people don’t understand A) These are clone lower receivers, so they will not be 100% accurate of a real M16A1 lower receiver AND B) The reasons why you’re simplifying the initial H&R items at first. Honestly, “grey” would be to color of choice for most. I’m pretty sure that black lower receivers will follow once sales become steady and this investment shows high level of success to keep this investment going. All I know is that you will never please everybody, but if you can make 90+% of the buying public happy, I’d say you’re doing a great job in that area!! |
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USA
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Posted: 12/29/2021 4:26:35 PM EDT
[#49]
Mike
So do you estimate at least 3 to 4 months to have the receivers and barrels up for sale on your new website? Hopefully, you will come to forum here and give us updates as you progres on the project? I am like others here who have said, "Take my money!" |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 5:05:15 PM EDT
[#50]
I've got forgings coming in Feb. Then we have to coordinate machine time and ano.
When we are further along I'll post updates. |
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