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Posted: 12/2/2021 8:10:36 PM EDT
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I was called over to a table from another vendor who I’ve done business with before and was asked if I wanted this. He told me that it is not for sale but said I could buy it if I wanted it. Mentioned if I didn’t buy it then he’d keep it so I said yes before even asking a price which I was told was always the best negotiation practice! Comes fully documented with papers and pictures from armalite and was used on the prototype rifles. Ironically I have pictures of this in use from the pictures I got from Rob Roy’s estate. Will take more pictures tomorrow to share with the hive Attached File |
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Quoted: That is the most amazing thing I have yet seen!  I can't wait for more pictures. I've been suspecting that there was an internal form along with the external mold and this proves it. Is the entire thing metal? Yes, had to carry it all the way across the show and it was a work out lol All steel I believe. |
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Quoted: So, I have to ask ... ballpark of how much that set you back? My buddy long ago told me how to negotiate. First you let them know you are extremely intestated and you’ll take it for whatever the price is! Then you ask for the price lol But in all reality I bought it what the previous owner previously bought it for years ago. Set me back $5,000 with all the documents and history with it |
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Quoted: Yes, had to carry it all the way across the show and it was a work out lol All steel I believe. I bet that's a heavy S.O.B. if it's all steel. Must be, what? 40 or 50lbs?  It might be easier to pull some stock bodies than you'd think. I believe they're just fiberglass sleeve stretched over the inner part and sandwiched into the mold halves. Of course, how that all works remains to be seen. |
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Quoted: Can we get a picture of the inside of the main cavity please? I am insterested in what the mold looks like to generate that soft fuzzy look on A2 stocks. Is it an A1 mold that was modified to A2? Looks to me like a first gen (type A, 601) stock mold, from the late ‘50’s-early ‘60’s. |
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So I will be getting all the documents for the mold as well but here are some more pictures. It is 100% for the original armalite AR15 prototypes. Also attached are some negatives I got from Rob Roy’s estate that show it with the fiberglass shell. And yes, I do plan on getting with someone to help make a few. Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File |
Hell yea!
 This confirms my suspicions. Several of them in fact. Those stock shells are definitely 1 piece of fiberglass sleeve shaped by the mold. The Sudanese HG I borrowed from HHollow shows the same construction. The stocks are also at least 4 parts. You've got the shells, the grey anti-rotation knub, the buttplate, and as these pictures show, the white inner tube for the buffer tube. Check this photo of #1. Attached File Pretty clear they left that tube in. It's amazing to see it all in full color for a change. |
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Quoted: This confirms my suspicions. Several of them in fact. Those stock shells are definitely 1 piece of fiberglass sleeve shaped by the mold. The Sudanese HG I borrowed from HHollow shows the same construction. The stocks are also at least 4 parts. You've got the shells, the grey anti-rotation knub, the buttplate, and as these pictures show, the white inner tube for the buffer tube. Check this photo of #1. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/245718/protostockclosep_jpg-2195170.JPG Pretty clear they left that tube in. It's amazing to see it all in full color for a change. Ahh, I love prototype stuff 
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Quoted: @aeyoung super cool find. FWIW you just need to make the "plug" part of that mold again. I'd hand layup and vac bag that to make parts. Would be a cheap setup too. Yes I need to see who would be able to help with the process and figured I’d wait until the new year to really pursue it more |
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Quoted: What are you talking about? He's got all the parts.  Frankly if I were in the OP's shoes I'd be making a silicone mold of that plug and casting a copy of it in a high density resin (toss in chopped fiberglass to help give strength and cut down on volume of resin). I'd then modify that copy so I can more easily vac bag the layup (chop the square base off flush, and round over all sharp edges) and run a test layup to ensure dimensional accuracy. Once I have a good plug, I would make a new mold and cast at least 1 more if not multiple plugs. At that point you're production ready, and should a plug wear out (highly unlikely with this method) or he need to expand production capacity he can have a new one or more ready to go within 24hrs for under $20-50 per plug. Given the working times of resins there's no reason he couldn't get multiples into a single bag (especially with a 2nd set of hands). Assuming the OP is starting from scratch he could have multiple plugs made, buy the tools, and get his prototype runs knocked out for under $2K. After that point his operating costs are just consumables and labor. For someone who knows what they're doing 1 week and he's production ready. For someone starting with little to no knowledge I'd say give it a month and add $500 to account for the learning curve to be production ready. If we assume 1 plug yields 1 part in 24hrs, the op will only be investing about 2-3 hours of his time in the manufacturing, post processing/cleanup, and prep for shipping. I frankly can't think of a better/more efficient/cost effective method for the OP than this. None of this is "highly skilled" labor either, just need to have attention to detail and some time in your day. Oh....and if he wanted to experiment he could also be casting butt plates with minimal investment to get that production line setup and relatively low time investment to make as well. Food for thought OP. No idea on the anti-rotation nub as I have no idea what it was made of. |
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Quoted: So, for clarity’s sake, it seems as though you’re suggesting to forgo the use of the original mold halves? Or am I reading that wrong? I think he's suggesting OP cast spare mold plugs, and use the spare plugs rather than the original. That's relatively easy to do, and allows much more rapid production. Also, the inside of the stock doesn't undergo as close scrutiny as the outside. |
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Quoted: So, for clarity's sake, it seems as though you're suggesting to forgo the use of the original mold halves? Or am I reading that wrong? |
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I plan on using this mold to make the stocks exactly as they were. I want these to be as close to the real things as you can get and I do not mind doing that due to literally none being on the market so am not worried about it. I thought it neat to have a stock made with the original dies and I’m sure everyone else would as well |
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Quoted: Nope you read it correctly. The vac bag will serve the same purpose as the outer mold halves. You would just need the form for the carbon fiber to wrap around. I've replicated lots of things using this method before. I don't think that's appropriate for these particular parts. I believe, in this case, that the plug is just there to get the material to conform the external mold. The external appearance and dimensions are much more important than what is offered from the mold plug itself. Out of genuine curiosity, would it be possible to do your idea in reverse? Say, replicate the mold halves and then use vacuum or perhaps pressure to press the fiberglass into them? I've been trying to figure out how to replicate the original conical hand guards and a lot of the same questions have come up for myself. This mold appears to be the same idea that I theorized the originals were made with but, I know technology and manufacturing has advanced quite a bit since 1959. |
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Quoted: And so the debate goes on between Concours vs Restomod, original post production parts vs a cost, process and, materials focused reproduction looking parts. You must choose, which retro camp are you from? War is coming :o) War? Hell, H&R is coming: https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_123/768993_JJE-HandR-LLC-acquisition-of-NoDak-Spud.html |
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Yes it is, war is definitely coming. Assuming H&R will try to deliver a complete rifle, will you be getting one, will that be good enough for you or are you going to try to populate it with GI HR parts? Even if they only deliver just a receiver set, will you use commercial or GI parts? GI or HR furniture? How hard do you think it will be trying to find an HR or SAK barrel in the future? Any HR small part change plans? War is coming which camp are you from? Concours or resto-mod The war is on for parts!! |
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Quoted: I don't think that's appropriate for these particular parts. I believe, in this case, that the plug is just there to get the material to conform the external mold. The external appearance and dimensions are much more important than what is offered from the mold plug itself. Out of genuine curiosity, would it be possible to do your idea in reverse? Say, replicate the mold halves and then use vacuum or perhaps pressure to press the fiberglass into them? I've been trying to figure out how to replicate the original conical hand guards and a lot of the same questions have come up for myself. This mold appears to be the same idea that I theorized the originals were made with but, I know technology and manufacturing has advanced quite a bit since 1959. Cast an outside and inside mold with guide pins, use vac bag to compress it to cure. Would be an extra step and another kind of resin used for the mold, but can be done in a garage just the same. |
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Quoted: Yes it is, war is definitely coming. Assuming H&R will try to deliver a complete rifle, will you be getting one, will that be good enough for you or are you going to try to populate it with GI HR parts? Even if they only deliver just a receiver set, will you use commercial or GI parts? GI or HR furniture? How hard do you think it will be trying to find an HR or SAK barrel in the future? Any HR small part change plans? War is coming which camp are you from? Concours or resto-mod The war is on for parts!! May I suggest that the question should be no which side are you on, but how difficult would it be to distinguish a part made by one method or the other? If the results are identical, it makes economic sense to go with the less expensive method. |
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