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Posted: 1/24/2017 12:45:15 PM EDT
[#1]
To bad your not wealthy enough to sue. Seems like a simple argument, does it fire more than 1 cartridge per trigger pull? No? THEN BY YOUR OWN DEFINITION IT'S NOT A FUCKING MACHINE GUN!
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Posted: 1/24/2017 12:46:45 PM EDT
[#2]
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Posted: 1/24/2017 12:50:21 PM EDT
[#3]
well that fuking sucks :mad:
i know a guy...who just got six 80%'s beautifully engraved and they have the silly little "sear pin" ring engraved on them. so does he send them in for anodizing and run the risk of a fuking atf nightmare now? |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 12:53:28 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My uneducated guess is that because of the fence and "replica" markings, that gets them out from under the microscope. Looks like the OP's lower was milled out to original M16 spec minus drilling the sear pin hols, which would only require drilling the sear pin hole and installing the sear/FA FCG to convert. Apparently "too close for their comfort"...even if it's one shot per trigger pull. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 1:01:49 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
well that fuking sucks :mad: i know a guy...who just got six 80%'s beautifully engraved and they have the silly little "sear pin" ring engraved on them. so does he send them in for anodizing and run the risk of a fuking atf nightmare now? Tell him to follow what TROY did and he should be fine... at least then he will have a leg to stand on if it is confiscated. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 1:08:57 PM EDT
[#6]
My uneducated guess is that because of the fence and "replica" markings, that gets them out from under the microscope.
I agree. Thats the first Ive seen the insides of Troys lower. Thats probably what was dictated be done to clear this for manufacture. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 1:11:37 PM EDT
[#7]
Also, my guess is Victor will no longer accept any lowers that have that engraviture on them. I will be calling him this afternoon to tell him the news. Not sure that the BATF was keeping him in the loop.
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Posted: 1/24/2017 1:12:45 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This thread was started to let everyone out there know that I have been handed a determination and it says I was in violation of one of their rules. I have neither the time, effort, nor the fortune it will take to fight this ruling. Understood and no grief given by me, *HOWEVER* I would certainly ask a lawyer about the ramifications of signing whatever they send you. You might be better off with something from your lawyer which says something along the lines of "37thguy admits no wrongdoing, but consents to BATFE destruction of his property to avoid the expense of slapping them silly". IANAL, but given the seriousness of the whole thing, I think you'd be very poorly-advised to just sign whatever they send you without legal counsel. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 1:22:15 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My uneducated guess is that because of the fence and "replica" markings, that gets them out from under the microscope. I agree. Thats the first Ive seen the insides of Troys lower. Thats probably what was dictated be done to clear this for manufacture. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 1:24:18 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Understood and no grief given by me, *HOWEVER* I would certainly ask a lawyer about the ramifications of signing whatever they send you. You might be better off with something from your lawyer which says something along the lines of "37thguy admits no wrongdoing, but consents to BATFE destruction of his property to avoid the expense of slapping them silly". IANAL, but given the seriousness of the whole thing, I think you'd be very poorly-advised to just sign whatever they send you without legal counsel. This is why I asked if it would be surrendered under protest. Essentially, you're telling the agency that you disagree with what they're doing but are complying so you don't face immediate legal issues. I remembered seeing this come up when the ATF decided the chalk rounds were DDs.  Forfeiture - Surrendering Under Protest |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 1:32:57 PM EDT
[#11]
It is really a shit deal when this type of stuff happens, and I fully understand not wanting to ruffle some derbs feathers are BATF. I would check with a lawyer on signing any letters, and how this came about, it would seem due process has been violated. I don't want anybody to get in trouble. I would however like to see the exact section that is considered a violation of the code. If taken on, they would have to prove it is a machine gun in violation of the statutes.
But I am going to write my representatives today and outline what you have stated in your message, as well as write who ever I can find in the new administration. With enough people writing and a new pro gun administration in place, good things could come out of this blatant violation of your rights. All I can say is good luck, at least a lot of people are now aware of this and if everybody just starts writing and contacting their representatives perhaps we can change this crap. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 1:44:09 PM EDT
[#12]
I would think Victor will be putting the kibosh on anodizing 80% after this fiasco. Sounds like he has enough other business to keep him busy.
Which is really frustrating as I was almost caught up in this mess because I had the okay to send in a 601 lower which may or may not have had a circle engraving.  Good thing my procrastination was working.
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Posted: 1/24/2017 2:16:31 PM EDT
[#13]
While I do disagree in principle with the overall idea that anything other than a receiver that can readily accept a FA FCG without further modification is a machine gun, I don't think the ATF agent in question is being so inconsistent as some are thinking.
As pointed out about the Troys, there is more than one step if you wanted to make the Troy auto. Same for AKs (at least the ones I have) even though they have the stamped third pin location. I think that has long been the ATF's M.O. If it can be converted with one hit of a drill it is essentially already converted. But if you have to use a drill and mill out a portion, that is more than one step and that they seem to be ok with. So really I think the unfortunate reality is that they are not being inconsistent by not allowing a 3rd pin marking WITH an M16 spec lower. Is it any harder to drill the hole and hit the shelf with a mill? Technically yes, even if it takes just a matter of minutes for a skilled machinist. But to reiterate I absolutely concur that it is BS that anything that requires any machining/drilling whatsoever to become auto can be a machine gun. I'm just pointing out that from my perspective that has been the ATF's standing for some time now, even if we're only just now getting confirmation for this specific scenario. I feel for ya OP. At least they're not accusing you of making one on purpose. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 2:27:06 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My uneducated guess is that because of the fence and "replica" markings, that gets them out from under the microscope. Quote HistoryQuoted:
The only thing that fence does, is prevent a drop in auto sear. Every AR jig I've ever seen, cuts the pocket to AR15 specs. You cannot fit an M16 auto sear in an AR15 unless you mill more of the pocket out. 
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Posted: 1/24/2017 2:31:39 PM EDT
[#15]
You might also try contacting your congressman if they happen to be pro 2nd Amendment.
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Posted: 1/24/2017 3:03:04 PM EDT
[#16]
OP update on any of this?
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Posted: 1/24/2017 3:18:17 PM EDT
[#17]
Now if there was a "C" before and a "LT" after the pin engraving.......
Sorry to hear about all of this 37th. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 4:55:15 PM EDT
[#18]
Looking at the Troy lower with what appears to be the correct pin placement and the other comments it seems clear that the pin engraving placement alone is not the determinative factor in the eyes of BATFE. It's pin placement on a M16 type FCG pocket. If you put some type of bridge or barrier in the pocket as Troy did it seems you're okay with engraving a pin. But I like what was said earlier about letting owners of all those previously engraved receivers with the engraved auto sear pin register them as machine guns!
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Posted: 1/24/2017 4:57:58 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Looking at the Troy lower with what appears to be the correct pin placement and the other comments it seems clear that the pin engraving placement alone is not the determinative factor in the eyes of BATFE. It's pin placement on a M16 type FCG pocket. If you put some type of bridge or barrier in the pocket as Troy did it seems you're okay with engraving a pin. But I like what was said earlier about letting owners of all those previously engraved receivers with the engraved auto sear pin register them as machine guns! Of the pics posted of the actual receiver(s) in question, none of them have an M16 FCG pocket... And the engraving is noticeably not in the correct area |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 5:12:03 PM EDT
[#20]
Why would you mill the pocket out like an M16 anyways. That could be determined to be intent to make a machine gun. If that's the case then that's why it's being seized? No reason to do that.
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Posted: 1/24/2017 5:16:12 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why would you mill the pocket out like an M16 anyways. That could be determined to be intent to make a machine gun. If that's the case then that's why it's being seized? No reason to do that. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 5:52:49 PM EDT
[#22]
First, 37thguy, sorry to read this. It's an unmitigated, over the top, steaming pile of unconstitutional horseshit (in my opinion) and no law-abiding American should have to tolerate governmental abuse like this.
I also understand, entirely, your decision to not fight. As much as our instinct (and I'm sure yours, too) is to gird our loins and draw a line in the sand, it takes more than just righteous outrage to take on the federal government. Unfortunately, that just makes it worse. You're not just being abused. You're being intimidated into accepting it. This just goes to show how wrong things have gotten in this country. "Our" government should not have the power to force citizens to accept its abuse. I am hoping one of the 2nd Amendment groups--or even the damned ACLU--will see this as what it is and step up to support the fight. If not, however, I at least advise you to read carefully before signing any ATF statement. In fact, I'd be sure to review any statement with a qualified attorney. Bad enough they're stealing your lawful property, declaring it illegal without legislated justification and forcing you to sit quietly while they do it. Who's to say they might not later use that signed document to determine that you are a criminal threat of some sort and unqualified to possess firearms? This really sucks, brother. Just tread carefully. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 6:15:24 PM EDT
[#23]
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Posted: 1/24/2017 6:24:40 PM EDT
[#24]
Well in that case this decision by the ATF is horseshit.
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Posted: 1/24/2017 6:28:05 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
http://ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/311269/CAR-Issue-96206.JPG the FCG pocket does not look like M16 spec. there is more material on one side. Yeah, that's a high-pocket receiver, with the semi-only pocket. But apparently it's a machine gun. I wonder if this is a machine gun, or if it's a non-firearm: 
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Posted: 1/24/2017 6:32:27 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would think Victor will be putting the kibosh on anodizing 80% after this fiasco. Sounds like he has enough other business to keep him busy. Which is really frustrating as I was almost caught up in this mess because I had the okay to send in a 601 lower which may or may not have had a circle engraving. Good thing my procrastination was working.Not sure why he would if the receiver came to him without the faux third pin hole engraving. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 6:36:01 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryBy the ATF's weird standards, that IS probably a firearm receiver (since the rear pin hole was drilled into an 80% receiver), but I'm not sure if they would go as far as to clasify it as a machinegun receiver. Who knows any more . . . . . |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 6:46:26 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
By the ATF's weird standards, that IS probably a firearm receiver (since the rear pin hole was drilled into an 80% receiver), but I'm not sure if they would go as far as to clasify it as a machinegun receiver. Who knows any more . . . . . Quote HistoryQuoted:
By the ATF's weird standards, that IS probably a firearm receiver (since the rear pin hole was drilled into an 80% receiver), but I'm not sure if they would go as far as to clasify it as a machinegun receiver. Who knows any more . . . . . Also note that the faux pin is lower in relation to where an actual pin would be. So even if you milled out the inside for a sear and drilled a hole where indicated, you'd probably not even be able to align the sear to the holes. And even if you did, the sear would sit low and probably not even work as intended |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 6:47:56 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Interesting. So what the hell are the guys who have these things supposed to do haha? JB weld and re-anodize or cerakote? Crazy shit...I can't believe they actually pulled that. There must be thousands of those 80%s out there like that, and even factory guns like the Troy I wonder if this is ok for retro builds then... http://i.imgur.com/i7a5HpC.png If you drill out this Troy lower, it will not take an auto sear unless you mill it to M16 specs. 37guy--your 80% lower--was it an AR or M16 spec lower? I thought you said it was M16. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 6:52:15 PM EDT
[#30]
Someone needs to let Troy know to shut down production and recall all those illegal machines guns they have been selling. I bet their lawyers would fight this.
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Posted: 1/24/2017 7:01:32 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Also note that the faux pin is lower in relation to where an actual pin would be. So even if you milled out the inside for a sear and drilled a hole where indicated, you'd probably not even be able to align the sear to the holes. And even if you did, the sear would sit low and probably not even work as intended Looks like it's 0.025 lower than the prints call for. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 7:09:30 PM EDT
[#32]
Like others have said, Do not sign the paper without legal advice.
By just signing it, you are admitting that you were intending to manufacture a machine gun and are surrendering it for destruction. Honestly, I don't really blame you to not fight to get it back as it can and likely would be expensive to fight as I have read other people's posts who have had to fight getting just parts kits back. That being said, get legal advice first, and if it comes to it, sign a forfeiture under protest that you were NOT intending to manufacture a machine gun, because you weren't. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 7:13:58 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Like others have said, Do not sign the paper without legal advice. By just signing it, you are admitting that you were intending to manufacture a machine gun and are surrendering it for destruction. Honestly, I don't really blame you to not fight to get it back as it can and likely would be expensive to fight as I have read other people's posts who have had to fight getting just parts kits back. That being said, get legal advice first, and if it comes to it, sign a forfeiture under protest that you were NOT intending to manufacture a machine gun, because you weren't. You better get a lawyer before you sign anything. You could find yourself in a world of hurt if you don't. Police can lie to you in order to get a confession. And you signing that is in a sense a confession. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 7:17:58 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, that's a high-pocket receiver, with the semi-only pocket. But apparently it's a machine gun. I wonder if this is a machine gun, or if it's a non-firearm: http://i.imgur.com/ssne3YY.jpg According to what I was told, that receiver in your pic is an MG. Might be wise to delete the pic. 
Also I am seeking council before anything gets signed. Thanks for all the advise. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 7:20:08 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
According to what I was told, that receiver in your pic is an MG. Might be wise to delete the pic. I'll leave the picture. They can come visit me. I'll do what you don't have the stomach to do. I will enlist a lawyer's time and advice to get this resolved once and for all. No offense, but if they declare this a machine gun, we're all in trouble, because, uh, lol. Wow. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 7:49:49 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'll leave the picture. They can come visit me. I'll do what you don't have the stomach to do. I will enlist a lawyer's time and advice to get this resolved once and for all. No offense, but if they declare this a machine gun, we're all in trouble, because, uh, lol. Wow. "don't have the stomach?"... Dude, Im in the middle of major back surgery, and have a 23 year career as a FEDERAL employee. They wont tolerate a felon. Some employers dont mind hiring or employing a felon. The Feds dont work that way and they are always looking for any excuse to get rid of one of us. Its NOT the stomach but rather its "Life" plain and simple. You go ahead and be our Almighty Savior. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 7:54:06 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
"don't have the stomach?"... Dude, Im in the middle of major back surgery, and have a 23 year career as a FEDERAL employee. They wont tolerate a felon. Some employers dont mind hiring or employing a felon. The Feds dont work that way and they are always looking for any excuse to get rid of one of us. Its NOT the stomach but rather its "Life" plain and simple. You go ahead and be our Almighty Savior. While I understand your reasoning for not wanting to put up a fight. I get it totally as you have a ton to lose. Job and all. If someone wants to take on the ATF I'm all for it. Just do not talk to them, sign anything or admit to anything. They are going to seize it regardless. Get counsel immediately and let your attorney speak for you. Cops and special agents will say anything to get an admission of guilt. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 8:18:31 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'll leave the picture. They can come visit me. I'll do what you don't have the stomach to do. I will enlist a lawyer's time and advice to get this resolved once and for all. No offense, but if they declare this a machine gun, we're all in trouble, because, uh, lol. Wow. Man, don't wait for them to come see you, go give them a visit. You da man. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 8:42:12 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
"don't have the stomach?"... Dude, Im in the middle of major back surgery, and have a 23 year career as a FEDERAL employee. They wont tolerate a felon. Some employers dont mind hiring or employing a felon. The Feds dont work that way and they are always looking for any excuse to get rid of one of us. Its NOT the stomach but rather its "Life" plain and simple. You go ahead and be our Almighty Savior. We have a lot in common. I don't want to be a felon either, I would most certainly lose my employment, and all of my toys. This is a call not based in fact. I want to see it reversed, because it's wrong, plain and simple. I understand, I do. You can't fight it. It's easier for you to write off the loss on your taxes and move on. But I'd like to play. I'll send them a letter requesting a determination later this week. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 11:09:52 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
According to what I was told, that receiver in your pic is an MG. Might be wise to delete the pic.
Also I am seeking council before anything gets signed. Thanks for all the advise. |
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Posted: 1/25/2017 12:00:13 AM EDT
[#41]
Looks like I got my 80% lowers finished just in time.
Allegedly that makes my three with colt roll and gov property markings, colt circa mid 80's serial numbering, and third hole engraving highly sought after 
If I wanna keep them from being class 3, apparently all I have to do is have "REPLICA" engraved on the top of the fence and they are good to go. Just like Troy and Colt
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Posted: 1/25/2017 12:51:45 AM EDT
[#42]
Wow.
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Posted: 1/25/2017 12:58:33 AM EDT
[#43]
Is this Fake News ? What do we know about OP?
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Posted: 1/25/2017 1:02:14 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is this Fake News ? What do we know about OP? He's a regular here. Haven't seen you around in retroland before though. 
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Posted: 1/25/2017 2:51:21 AM EDT
[#45]
I tried a few different places out of state when I was trying to get my lowers coated, they all said we don't want to take the work bc of the replica serial numbers. Their reasoning was pretty simple, and I agreed with them, that because I had used actual serial numbers colt used on m16s, it was a crap shoot, legally speaking. Fine with me.
What I couldn't prove over the phone was that since I had bought and still owned, a few demilled colt and hydra m16 lowers from gun shows, I used the numbers off of those for my replica lowers. I ended up taking them to a local place and since I had the actual demilled lowers with me to prove these serial numbers no longer existed as firearms, they didn't even bat an eye. They just asked how I wanted to pay. They said nothing about the replica sear engraving. |
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Posted: 1/25/2017 3:09:18 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I tried a few different places out of state when I was trying to get my lowers coated, they all said we don't want to take the work bc of the replica serial numbers. Their reasoning was pretty simple, and I agreed with them, that because I had used actual serial numbers colt used on m16s, it was a crap shoot, legally speaking. Fine with me. What I couldn't prove over the phone was that since I had bought and still owned, a few demilled colt and hydra m16 lowers from gun shows, I used the numbers off of those for my replica lowers. I ended up taking them to a local place and since I had the actual demilled lowers with me to prove these serial numbers no longer existed as firearms, they didn't even bat an eye. They just asked how I wanted to pay. They said nothing about the replica sear engraving. Engrave your info on the pistol grip tang with serial number . Send with note |
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Posted: 1/25/2017 10:09:57 AM EDT
[#47]
Doesn't matter what they consider it. The law is specific on the fact that they are NOT. Suits should include BATFE as well as naming the specific law breaking agent.
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Posted: 1/25/2017 11:34:53 AM EDT
[#48]
Those goons def need to be handled, but the law is not specific.
There is too much leeway in "readily restored", esp when they are the ones who freely decide what that means. To any sane person that means shit is "ready" for parts to be dropped in, or removed to make the magic happen. Not machine work needed to make it happen
I can see why they would have this part in there, but it is poorly written, end even more poorly defined. If there was only "fires more than 1 shot", a complete m16 with the tail ground off the disco would pass. Yank the disco and back to fa. I'd say that legitimately qualifies as "readily". Calling a receiver a mg, that needs machine work to be a mg, is nuts. That would make every semi auto on the planet a mg. |
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Posted: 1/25/2017 11:42:16 AM EDT
[#49]
It's impossible to restore a completed 80% faux M16 lower to a machine gun if it was never a machine gun
It was only a machine gun up until the point where the ATF said it was. And by ATF terms, it is impossible to restore it to anything else because once a machine gun, always a machine gun. Sorry OP, but the ATF needs guns for their under the table F&F operation. |
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Posted: 1/25/2017 12:05:05 PM EDT
[#50]
Sorry OP...
FWIW.. Sometimes it is just safer to let it go when you the small guy can't fight back. |
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