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Posted: 1/23/2017 11:26:37 PM EDT
[#1]
If you paint the auto sear pin on a lower, does that make it a machine gun? I think not... but then I'm not the BATFE.
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Posted: 1/23/2017 11:41:08 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you paint the auto sear pin on a lower, does that make it a machine gun? I think not... but then I'm not the BATFE. That's what I'm planning on doing. |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 11:53:24 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, engraving on the outside of the receiver does not mean you have gone over 80% if it were, then companies would not be able to legally sell them with the engraving already on them, you can legally buy a lower receiver with the Safe, Fire and Auto markings on them and they are not considered a gun, you have to start the process to actually mill the FCG pocket out in order to go over the 80% threshold. The take down pin pocket with the engraving can be present on the lower and it is still considered an 80% lower. |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 11:55:45 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's what I'm planning on doing. That's what I have been contemplating, however, using the same BATFE logic (or lack thereof) it would STILL be marking the sear hole, and could be seen as "intent". I know a dealer who was arrested by the BATFE for "conspiring to conspire", ie: THINKING about breaking the law. Luckily, the judge laughed it out of court. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 12:03:22 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
ATF has considered FCG engraving to turn a 80% lower into an actual firearm for some time. To be clear, they don't care about writing and safe/fire markings. But if you put an index mark where the pin holes are they consider it a firearm even if the fcg pocket hasn't been touched by a mill. That is splitting hairs Jaq, the circle engraving that retro companies have been doing are not in the correct position that the pin would need to be installed. If I were in the same position I would be asking for a re-determination on this with written clarification. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 12:09:54 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That is splitting hairs Jaq, the circle engraving that retro companies have been doing are not in the correct position that the pin would need to be installed. If I were in the same position I would be asking for a re-determination on this with written clarification. 
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Posted: 1/24/2017 12:15:44 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would be calling my lawyer and getting his opinion as he specializes in gun cases and egging on the ATF Exactly. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 12:16:02 AM EDT
[#8]
Geez - too late - already done! Perhaps this agent didn't know this refs? An engraving is not an intent - just a replica. Am confused now.
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Posted: 1/24/2017 12:17:04 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
I have been informed by the BATF today, that a determination has been made regarding the receiver(s) in question with the sear pin engraving. It has been determined a Machine Gun although they have decided that there was no "intent" on our parts in creating one. I was told that no marking should be made in the area where the pin hole goes. I will be getting a letter from them shortly that I will sign, surrendering said receiver to the BATF for destruction. I did inquire why TROY is allowed to do this very same marking, but the agent didnt know, although he did say he'd try to find out. Im not in the mood to argue this, bash the BATF, nor hypothesize about why, just passing on the information as it was given. My suggestion: DON'T DO IT! Not worth the hassle. 37thguy, obviously I do not find myself in your position, but there is many here on this forum that do have milled 80% lowers with such markings. Have you retained the services of an attorney, if not I would not deal with the BATF except through an attorney, I would not talk with them or communicate with them in any order manner. When your property was seized at US Anodizing were you immediately provided with a notice of seizure or was Victor provided with said. Unless the technical branch provides some letter stating that this is in fact a machinegun, I wouldn't sign anything or offer them the item for destruction. If you start a go fund me page, I will be the first to send you money. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 12:21:29 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Geez - too late - already done! Perhaps this agent didn't know this refs? An engraving is not an intent - just a replica. Am confused now. That is one of the biggest problems with the BATF, it really does not matter what you are doing, they get to determine intent, not you. That is one of the things that needs to be changed and I hope the new admin looks real hard at the unlimited power this agency has! Time to start writing Donald Trump Jr, he is a strong advocate for gun owners and is one of the forces that think passing the HPA needs to be done now. When the BATF accuses you of something it is just as bad as a false rape accusation, you didn't do it, but it does not matter, it still ruins you life! 
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Posted: 1/24/2017 12:24:25 AM EDT
[#11]
What about all the AK receivers with the stamped location for the third pin from the factory?
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Posted: 1/24/2017 12:27:36 AM EDT
[#12]
Has anyone written a letter yet?
 ...
Maybe instead of confiscating all the faux 3rd pin receivers they will just reopen the registry and add all the current retro build "machine guns" |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 12:33:18 AM EDT
[#13]
37 feel your pain. What are the chances of some shit like that going down. Well that's the only reason I neutered all my 601 FCG's and sold or traded all my FA parts off. I'm too old to recite law to today's LEO who at best isn't an actual criminal themselves. Thanks for posting heads up or outcome to date as I followed original post.
Think I'd handle it the way you have to date. I've fought the law more than a few times over the years and bare the scars. The only reason I was doing so was I was actually in the right and had the law on my side or so I thought especially when the truth was being told. Somehow the actual truth always gets twisted by the powers to be and the stories changed until they win or your pockets are empty and victory is shallow at best. I'd say screw everybody else and their opinion and do what's best for you, including mine, would be my advise although you didn't ask. They going to pay the fines or do the time worst case scenario? Probably not! I will say if member weapnsman advises on something firearms related it's probably very good advice and rivaled by few. Why push the envelope over something as small as trying to pretend or to have a fake this or that. Save your coins and buy the real deal off the registry and leave all the fake crap to the tin horns. MOFO's are making a fortune off want to be crap and ya'll are gobbling it up with a ladle not a spoon. What did a member here say once. "Crack don't smoke itself" Kinda remember a song by Bobby Fuller or such when I was a kid. Think they found him in his car dead long before that was common place. A-Breakin rocks in the hot sun, I fought the law and the law won!" " I miss my baby and the good fun, I fought the law and the law won! |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 12:55:54 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What about all the AK receivers with the stamped location for the third pin from the factory? That was already addressed in a court of law, government v prince, basically they lost. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 2:08:43 AM EDT
[#15]
So how about one done with a 30 watt CO2 laser post-anodizing? It leaves a permanent mark, but no measurable (doesn't even penetrate the anodizing) depth.
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Posted: 1/24/2017 2:14:18 AM EDT
[#16]
OP.... do you mind posting the letter that they want you to sign?
What is the "or else" that will happen if you don't sign the letter? |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 2:21:55 AM EDT
[#17]
ATF can't find its own ass with both hands. I'm embarrassed for those guys.
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Posted: 1/24/2017 2:28:24 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
If you paint the auto sear pin on a lower, does that make it a machine gun? I think not... but then I'm not the BATFE. The way things are going right now I don't think it's even safe to draw a fake auto sear pin using a Sharpie pen. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 2:39:02 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That is one of the biggest problems with the BATF, it really does not matter what you are doing, they get to determine intent, not you. That is one of the things that needs to be changed and I hope the new admin looks real hard at the unlimited power this agency has! Time to start writing Donald Trump Jr, he is a strong advocate for gun owners and is one of the forces that think passing the HPA needs to be done now. When the BATF accuses you of something it is just as bad as a false rape accusation, you didn't do it, but it does not matter, it still ruins you life! ETA: I've forwarded this thread to the NRA-ILA. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 3:00:29 AM EDT
[#20]
So, the new Echo trigger is not considered full auto but an engraving makes it a MG??
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Posted: 1/24/2017 3:08:20 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What is the best way to do this? ETA: I've forwarded this thread to the NRA-ILA. Donald Jr. can be contacted through his Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/DonaldJTrumpJr/ If you use Twitter, he is available there https://twitter.com/DonaldJTrumpJr I am still digging, he should have an email address available through the Corporate website and I know he is on linkedin In this day and age, Twitter and Facebook is probably the quickest as I am sure he has aides that monitor those pages and if they blow up with messages it would likely get to him or someone that can make him aware of it. Many of us own or have visited Silencerco met with Trump Jr. Last month and may be able to help out https://sofrep.com/72940/second-amendment-legal-supressors-silencerco-donald-trump-jr/ |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 4:09:25 AM EDT
[#22]
Interesting. So what the hell are the guys who have these things supposed to do haha? JB weld and re-anodize or cerakote?
Crazy shit...I can't believe they actually pulled that. There must be thousands of those 80%s out there like that, and even factory guns like the Troy |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 4:18:22 AM EDT
[#23]
This is fucking nuts.
We need @NoloContendere
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Posted: 1/24/2017 4:37:51 AM EDT
[#24]
I am telling trump on them
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Posted: 1/24/2017 5:02:02 AM EDT
[#25]
In solidarity with my retro brethren, I'm thinking about engraving all my lowers this way now, and I think Full auto on the M16 is a waste unless you have a drum and a rate reducer, or 2 round burst.
I have no plans to own a machine gun that is magazine-fed, and any belt-fed would be done on an SOT. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 5:22:34 AM EDT
[#26]
What about stickers? What if someone wanted to have a small circle of paper with adhesive on the back where the auto sear pin hole is? Would that be a machine gun?
If etching makes an 80-whatever% lower a firearm what about a template in paper or some other material glued down? |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 6:46:53 AM EDT
[#27]
I'm here. in NJ at the moment. People have my contact info if you want to talk.
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Posted: 1/24/2017 8:39:04 AM EDT
[#28]
Ok I want to make sure I have the facts straight....
If the employee is not an agent the "taking" employee will have a real legal and civil problem. Even an agent would have to have a serious reason for taking property without a warrant. "Seizure" does require a warrant for arrest made out for the property. (ask me how I know). Is there a warrant and has anybody seen it? I will go out on a limb here and guess that a new minted employee (not agent) just attended one of FTB/FATD classes on firearms identification and was told that "indicating" a hole is not allowed (though faking one would not have been addressed in said class) and the employee did not know the distinction and went full bore freak out on it.....Now the ATF will have to either circle the wagons and protect the employee or cut bait and immediately give it back....Either way I doubt there will be any criminal charge as this will make any AUSA run for cover as it will embarrass all who touch it going forward. This is what is referred to at the ATF as a "career ender".... |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 8:58:00 AM EDT
[#29]
So ATF has the lower and wants OP to sign a document saying he knows its a machine gun, he is surrendering it and they can destroy it?
If OP doesn't want to sign the document and wants to avoid the hassle can he just send them a letter authorizing the destruction of his property? |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 9:06:25 AM EDT
[#30]
This is outrageous. Do these dumbasses learn anything about guns at ATF school?
If you were to take a file now and remove the faux pin head with a couple of passes, is it "still a machine gun"? I'll donate money if we can hand these fuckers their heads in court! |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 10:01:48 AM EDT
[#31]
OP should have called Dave!
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Posted: 1/24/2017 10:40:16 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is outrageous. Do these dumbasses learn anything about guns at ATF school? If you were to take a file now and remove the faux pin head with a couple of passes, is it "still a machine gun"? I'll donate money if we can hand these fuckers their heads in court! Once a machinegun........ |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 11:00:05 AM EDT
[#33]
Hell have the ATF goons drill the hole, then have them try to install a M16 FCG.
It won't work with the lower as pictured, there the conversion between a typical AR-15 lower and a M-16 is a bit more involved than just drilling the auto sear pin hole and dropping the parts in. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 11:28:36 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
was this documented or verbal? Verbal at this point, but I will be getting a letter that I must sign OK'ing the destruction of the lower. Perhaps it will give the reasons as well. Will post a copy of it if so. I really pressed the agent about why Troy can engrave theirs but we cannot. I said I'd send him a reminder enclosed within the destruction letter when returned. Like I said, this was started for the information, not as a letter for guessing nor to bash the BATF. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 11:31:01 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would request an appeal of the determination. As was stated by a previous poster, an 80% receiver is not even considered a gun until it is milled out. Go for it. It's all yours. When you are under investigation by the BATF, you'll feel different. If you have all the money it will take and dont mind being on their radar you're a better man than I. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 11:32:12 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Verbal at this point, but I will be getting a letter that I must sign OK'ing the destruction of the lower. Perhaps it will give the reasons as well. Will post a copy of it if so. I really pressed the agent about why Troy can engrave theirs but we cannot. I said I'd send him a reminder enclosed within the destruction letter when returned. Like I said, this was started for the information, not as a letter for guessing nor to bash the BATF. Are you surrendering it under protest? |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 11:35:22 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Don't sign it. It is not a machine gun... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I have been informed by the BATF today, that a determination has been made regarding the receiver(s) in question with the sear pin engraving. It has been determined a Machine Gun although they have decided that there was no "intent" on our parts in creating one. I was told that no marking should be made in the area where the pin hole goes. I will be getting a letter from them shortly that I will sign, surrendering said receiver to the BATF for destruction. I did inquire why TROY is allowed to do this very same marking, but the agent didnt know, although he did say he'd try to find out. Im not in the mood to argue this, bash the BATF, nor hypothesize about why, just passing on the information as it was given. My suggestion: DON'T DO IT! Not worth the hassle. Don't sign it. It is not a machine gun... If I dont sign it, I must take them to court. If you would care to be my financier for all that would be to follow, I would consider it, but you dont know what it's been like these last two months waiting. I will sign it and BE DONE WITH THIS! You my friend may take them to court in my stead, by all means....and GOD speed. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 11:38:36 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
nor to bash the BATF. It should be. BATF is a practically useless agency with too many bored agents looking for ways to screw the average gun owner, and no functional oversight. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 11:45:48 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What a kick in the balls. I wonder how many lowers were seized? 5-6 |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 12:00:32 PM EDT
[#40]
This is just sad.
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Posted: 1/24/2017 12:00:33 PM EDT
[#41]
Somebody engrave a lower with the words machine gun and send a letter to the ATF asking for clarification.
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Posted: 1/24/2017 12:05:15 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Interesting. So what the hell are the guys who have these things supposed to do haha? JB weld and re-anodize or cerakote? Crazy shit...I can't believe they actually pulled that. There must be thousands of those 80%s out there like that, and even factory guns like the Troy Once a machinegun always a machinegun, so by BATFEs logic, they would all need to be destroyed, can't fill in the |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 12:09:20 PM EDT
[#43]
Don't sign anything. Appeal the decision. Make as much noise about this as possible. I've already seen this post on facebook and it is making its rounds.
Don't give up on this, that's exactly what they want you to do . You haven't broken any laws, THEY HAVE, and they need to be held accountable for it, even if only in the court of public opinion. Please don't roll over on this, they have violated your rights and seized your property without legal standing. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 12:09:49 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Somebody engrave a lower with the words machine gun and send a letter to the ATF asking for clarification. I know someone who sent the ATF a SOLID SQUARE BLOCK of aluminum and asked for a letter saying that it was not a machinegun. They wrote him back and said that they COULD NOT affirm that it was not a machinegun since someone COULD mill it into a weapon!!! |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 12:23:27 PM EDT
[#45]
This thread was started to let everyone out there know that I have been handed a determination and it says I was in violation of one of their rules.
I am passing along this information to my Retro brothers here that I suggest strongly that you discontinue adding the fake sear pin engraving to your 80% lower AR15 receivers. That is all. I have neither the time, effort, nor the fortune it will take to fight this ruling. If someone out there chooses to pick up the cross and run with it, GOD speed to you. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 12:29:13 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Go for it. It's all yours. When you are under investigation by the BATF, you'll feel different. If you have all the money it will take and dont mind being on their radar you're a better man than I. I can't, it is not my property. As a manufacture of NFA items I am already on their radar. The BATF has been to our shop a few times over the years. As far as money, there are several attorneys that specialize in gun laws in this country that would take this type of situation on to prove that they are wrong for very little or no money. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 12:35:23 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This thread was started to let everyone out there know that I have been handed a determination and it says I was in violation of one of their rules. I am passing along this information to my Retro brothers here that I suggest strongly that you discontinue adding the fake sear pin engraving to your 80% lower AR15 receivers. That is all. I have neither the time, effort, nor the fortune it will take to fight this ruling. If someone out there chooses to pick up the cross and run with it, GOD speed to you. Just want to say I can't blame you for washing your hands of this as quickly as possible. While I'd agree you could hand the ATF their balls for lunch, it's your skin in the game and ultimately what is best for you (and may I add, family). I know at this point in my life I wouldn't be able to fight it, not with a little one in the house. Otherwise, by all means, please, high res copies of that letter when it shows up. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 12:40:48 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Interesting. So what the hell are the guys who have these things supposed to do haha? JB weld and re-anodize or cerakote? Crazy shit...I can't believe they actually pulled that. There must be thousands of those 80%s out there like that, and even factory guns like the Troy I wonder if this is ok for retro builds then... 
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Posted: 1/24/2017 12:42:48 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This thread was started to let everyone out there know that I have been handed a determination and it says I was in violation of one of their rules. I am passing along this information to my Retro brothers here that I suggest strongly that you discontinue adding the fake sear pin engraving to your 80% lower AR15 receivers. That is all. I have neither the time, effort, nor the fortune it will take to fight this ruling. If someone out there chooses to pick up the cross and run with it, GOD speed to you. However, OP, it appears you will have to admit to owning a machine gun when you sign the letter to have it destroyed. I wonder if that could put you in further jeopardy at some point. |
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Posted: 1/24/2017 12:43:05 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote History My uneducated guess is that because of the fence and "replica" markings, that gets them out from under the microscope.
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