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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Bushmaster 308 (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 8/5/2007 11:23:28 AM EDT
| Anyone have any feedback on the 308's that Bushmaster was making? I saw one for sale at my local gunshop. I know that they are discontined. I was curious to see if anyone out here has an opinion, or experience with these. Thanks |
Ok, I will correct you. You are mixing a few things. Bushmaster quit production because it was a failed design. RRA is using the same blueprints for their new rifle. They were calling it the LAR-10. Armalite sued (and won) on copyright infringement. RRA changed the name to the LAR-8. Still havent released it, even though the release date was spring 2006. |
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There were some complaints about some kind of malfunction with the bolt, but I don't know if that is the reason Bushy discontinued sales, might've just been a slow seller. There are guys on here who say they have bushy 308s that run like tops. I think RRA originally sold the design to bushy, then when Busy dropped it RRA launched an attempt to sell them themselves. I am not sure they are in production yet. You can check the RRA forum. I could see the Bushy as a collectible, however I don't think I would buy one if I were looking for my first military style semi auto. |
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I asked the RRA guy in their store at perry last week when they were going to get the 308 out but did not get any kind of an answer. He kind of hemmed and hawed and mumbled something about getting a couple of parts straightened out, then going into production. Also said something about a year and a half waiting list. Hmmm, think I'll just buy a DPMS. Charlie |
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Hey Guys, I got a Bushmaster .308 AR-10. I have the original mags for it and FAL mags that I bought for it. I have shot the rifle with both magazines and it worked like clockwork. I have kept it clean and shot good quality ammo thru it as well as match grade ammo. It keeps on ticking. I have hunted with it and have had no problems in that area also. It will shoot decent groups at any range that I want out to its maximum range. I am a pretty good shot but I am not a tournment marksman. So before you make judgement about a rifle, have first hand experience with it. kingwolf |
Point taken. I still haven't tried Indian 308 and have no plans on trying it out nor will I be trying the aluminum 308 FAL uppered guns either. I'm going strictly by other peoples optinions and first hand experiences. Some of them even have pictures. |
| Bushmaster quit making them because they were too expensive to produce and no one would buy them at Bushmasters prices. There is nothing wrong with the design. They run like a champ and eat anything you put in them. They are very accurate. The very first models had problems with the bolts breaking and Bushmaster quickly addressed it. But because of a few bad apples in the begining AR enthusiasts turned their backs on them. I own one and it's a great weapon. I just wished I had gotten the 20" instead of the 16". |
Yeah, because Knight's had a problem selling their really expensive rifles. If it is a great gun, people will pay top$$ for it. when they get a reputation for having problems (and how did that start, did someone who couldnt afford the rifle start that all over the shooting world?? or did it actually have problems?) no one will pay a lot, or even a little for them. Trust me, this rifle did not die because it was too expensive. You might have gotten a good one. There are quite a few people who have. You are lucky. But dont say it was a great gun that the world was too cheap to appreciate. A LOT of us on this board have spent untold thousands of dollars on rifles. We are willing to spend untold thousands more for a good rifle. We wont spend our money on a flawed design that failed to produce. |
| It isn't a poor design. Stock, the things were like $1,600.00. And for that amount of money people could buy an AR-10. So what was the point really? Only the very first run had bolt problems and that was quickly addressed and was no longer an issue. I am not lucky because I got a good one. Those who got bad ones were unlucky. Bolt failures were the exception, not the rule. And yes... because of the initial first failures the shooting community DID lable it a dud. When in fact it is a good weapon. If I'm not mistaken RRA originally designed the damn thing and sold it to Bushmaster. Bushmaster tried it, didn't go over very well with the initial first few flaws and then after that the project had the stink of death on it so Bushmaster cut it's losses. I know several people who own these guns and they all work flawlessly. Are they lucky too? Just because you perfer another rifle doesn't mean there is a thing wrong with this one. It's like the people who think the DPMS 308 is junk when in fact I've seen one first hand that groups just as tight as my AR-10. |
Not all this shit again  IT IS AN ORIGINAL RRA DESIGN THEY LICENSED TO BUSHMASTER FOR RETAIL SALE. RRA built the rifles and shipped them to Bushmaster. The above is from RRA's guys manning their tables at Knob Creek. BM dropped the .308 and the M17 bullpup lines at the same time in late 05. BM had them overpriced for the market. Look at RRA listed prices on the same rifles now. I have the 20" flattop and its a GREAT RIFLE. I bought it NIB from a dealer in Sept 05 for $1500 OTD. Ive set it up as a precision rig with a 10x SS scope and a Magpul PRS stock. I plan on freefloating the barrel ASAP. I also have it set up for suppressed fire  It shoots surplus quite well but prefers 168gr Match loads. I want to try 155gr A-Max loads in it too. |
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And if Bushmaster fixed all the flaws, and now RRA is trying to put it out, why isnt it out? They (RRA)had an initial release date of Spring, 2006. Then there was the Armalitelawsuit reason not to rlease it. The lawsuit got settled. Still no RRA 308. Why didnt they release it? Because of the flaws that are still not worked out of it. If you think RRA is not releasing a weapon that is ready to go, that is such a great platform, then you are naive at best. The Bushmaster/RRA was/is flawed. If the problems were fixed, (as you say) there would be no need for RRA to keep trying to fix the problems. There were problems. There are problems. It is pretty simple. If, as you say, the price tag of $1600 ruined it, ask around how many of us bought KAC rifles for a hell of a lot more $$ than that. Ask how many of us have bought DPMS's for more than that. Doesnt matter how much the price compares to Armalite- if it is a better product, people are willing to pay for it. It was not the $1600 price tag that killed it, it is not the $1600 price tag that is keeping RRA from releasing the same design. It was and is a flawed design. |
Have you ever handled and shot or owned the .308 AR type rifle in question? I really doubt it. Like most disparagers I will bet your going on 2nd-3rd hand info. BM ended their M17S bullpup the same time as the .308 rifle, as I mentioned earlier. Was it flawed? Their are a lot of people on here who like them and get them modded by KKM Precision. I havent had 1 damn problem with my BM BAR10. I have talked to RRA about it. They told me they were going to improve (not repair) the design. when you change 1 aspect in engineering you have to change others. I dont know why they kept pushing the re-release date back but I do know they would have slit their own throats if they rushed it back on the market without making sure any bugs caused by changes made were not worked out before release. ETA...If you would read the post, RRA list price is extremely low for the rifle. Your $1600 price you keep yakkin about doesnt exist anymore |
| Mine works fine - BAR 10 20" w/ACE stock. I have had it for over 2 years. It was discontinued as a result of a timing issue not a design flaw. Simple fact the retail and dealer price point was too high - it cost a dealer at least $350 more than a basic Armalite AR10 to stock and BAR 10's did not have a long track record. At the same time DPMS had just put out their 308 product that worked great for $500- $600 less than the AR10's and BAR 10 's and they are a good company to work with for dealers so it was a no brainer to sell DPMS over Bushmaster's. |
Irrelevant. I never drove Corvair and I know it was a piece of crap. The design was pulled. The question still remains why was it pulled. You stated it was because of price. I say that is utter nonsense. Expensive, well made guns sell. Poorly made guns do not. Knight's weapons sell, sell and sell. They cost more used than they did new. RRA is not releasing their rifle, not because they want to make a great design better. They are not releasing it because they are trying to get a flawed design to work. And so far they are not happy with what they have. Kudos to them for not following Bushmaster's lead and releasing a rifle before it is ready. When the bugs are out, maybe they will release it. But as of now, no release means the bugs are not out. Because there are a few members who have a great example of the Bushmaster is great. I am happy for you. In research methods what you are doing is called the individual fallacy. You are extrapolating from your individual experience to the greater experience.: "My Bushmaster works great, ergo ALL Bushmasters must work great". It is flawed logic. I am happy that your gun works fine. that has not been the experience with many of the Bushmaster owners, and there was enough of a groundswell of unhappiness, that people stopped buying them, and Bushmaster stopped making them. It is painfully clear that RRA thinks so as well. |
Why don't you post some facts, and support them sources/evidence. Otherwise you're just blowing smoke. It's all just speculation on your part. |
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What more fact do you need than Bushmaster pulled their design, RRA has the blueprints, and is a year late in its release? Facts, all of them. If the gun worked flawlessly with those blueprints, it would be out. Fact. RRA is doing the right thing and not releasing a flawed design. Fact. People pay $$ for rifles that work. Fact. People will not buy flawed rifles. Fact. |
I never claimed the entire line was flawless. Your flat out lying trying to claim I did. I have heard there were bolt problems early in the line. I also am not arguing that since I have a damn good BAR-10 then they all were good. Yes, I speak from my personal experience with the BAR-10 I own. Not like some people in this thread. There have been others, in this thread, more doing what I am, speaking up if we have a good rifle. As Ive said BEFORE, I really hate repeating myself. I talked with RRA and asked them for the history and truth behind the BAR-10 line. This was in person with RRA employees at Knob Creek. This was also over 3 different Knob Creek Shoots. I also talked with the RRA Tech department by phone along with the RRA Moderator on this site. I dont just take internet stories as gospel. I have done my own research along with FIRSTHAND experience. RIF...start here:RRA Industry section official LAR 8 info thread |
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FACTS: I just got off the phone with Bushmaster's Tech Dept. 1: EARLY BAR-10s had a relief cut (odd shoulder) on the rear section (tail) of the bolt. This ares could and sometimes did fracture. It did not affect operation of the rifle. Fractures were found when disassembled for cleaning. Example. A user in Australia hunting feral animals on an Ausie .gov contract put many hundreds of rounds thru a BAR-10 with a fractured bolt tail with no failures. 2: When the relief cut was deleted from the improved bolts ALL FRACTURES CEASED. 3: There was never a missing locking lug from the bolt head so FAL mags could be used . internet myth 4: Production line was ended along with the M17 Bullpup for lack of sales. I asked the guy if the .308s lack of sales was from the early "bad rep" over the bolts. He stated "NO". It was from people looking at Armalites and the new DPMS .308 and seeing a slightly lower price, making the purchase, and ignoring the fact any price savings were lost on the cost of ARMALITE's and DPMS's proprietary mags. And people falling for Centurys rebuilt Cetmes and G3s. Initial sticker shock clouded the fact a lot of it is made up with the use of cheap $, plentiful, reliable mags. ETA....I apologize for anything construed as juvenile retorts in earlier postings. |
There are many reasons a company might pull a product from the market. Unless you have some sort of documentation to back up your claim that the BM .308 was pulled because they considered it a flawed design - you're guessing. As stated above, RRA has always had the design, but licensed it to Bushmaster. As far as the late release date goes, it certainly was a PR/marketing screw-up on RRA's part, they probably should have waited until they were in the final stages of testing before annoucing the project to begin with. Since none of us are privy to the inner circle of RRA's design/production team, any speculation that the late release is related to some design flaw is just - a guess.
It was out "with those blueprints" as the BM .308, granted it had some teething pains, but really was never out long enough to work through them. RRA has since modified the design, therefore requiring new production methods, new testing, and of course new "blueprints". All that takes time, and a year isn't really a long time in manufacturing terms.
Again with the flawed design. Why don't you enlighten us, and explain exactly what is "flawed"? More likely, RRA is playing it safe because of all the unsubstantiated rumors about the BM .308, and they want it to be, quite literally, perfect. I'm sure that RRA realizes that any hiccup or imperfection in the LAR-8 and people like you will crucify them with "I told you so".
Discerning buyers don't pay more than they need to if they can get equal quality for less. The BM .308's niche was the use of cheap high-cap magazines when new ones couldn't be manufactured because of The Ban. The Ban went away shortly after its introduction, which left it with its competitors able to fill that same niche. Why buy a $1600 Bushmaster, when you can buy a $1300 Armalite that's just as good?
BS. People buy crap all the time. People buy what they can afford - there wouldn't be a need for a board like this if everything anyone bought was flawless. |
There were a very FEW BM's labeled BAR-10 in the very beginning. Those I believe will develop a following and be collectible within roughly five years. (All IMO of course.) Yes, there were problems with bolts breaking in the BM's. Yes, there were design flaws. 5sub |
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I will ad my .02 on the mag issue. What happens when the mags dry up, as the G3 mags used to be? You will be paying more than the newer mags that will get cheaper with production increases. Now you can get them, but what happens when you can't? They will be as/more expensive as domestically produced mags. It won't matter if you stack em deep now, at the cheaper prices, but in 5-10 years, once that supply is gone, what happens to the guy starting out. The rifle can't be sustained and then it becomes harder to sell, discontinued, then parts dry up. Unless you spent a huge upfront cost to set aside proprietary parts/mags for the long haul, you will be SOL. I would choose a design that has the greater sustainability over the long haul. I would rather have a rifle I could sustain with a few mags, than have a broken rifle w/ proprietary parts and a shitload of mags. YYMV If you buy cheap and stack deep this is irrelevant, 95% of gun owner dont do this. |
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If cheap surplus mags functioned 100% reliably RRA would not be planning to spend $100K + on diework to make their own mags. I have never seen proof that RRA actually produced the BFI guns. An RRA rep denied this claim last week at Camp Perry. I've heard three different stories in the last ten days regarding the production delays.
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I wonder if they have a different crew that goes there than the one that goes to Knob Creek  I wouldnt say what Ive said about RRA being the original designer and license holder and that they built them for BM if the RRA crew at Knob Creek hadnt told me that more than once. Its been the same guys there every Shoot Ive went to and talked with them. ETA....The FAL mag issue...Mine came with a brand new 20rd'er. I test fit gunshow FAL mags after looking them over really well and checking BHO function, before buying them. I also bought "new unissued" IMI FAL mags and test fit them. 2 were bulged and were a PIA to insert and remove. I gave them to a friend who has an FAL. I havent had any FTE or FTF as of yet with my mags. of course as with anything and everything YMMV |
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Not going into all the "I heards" and "I thoughts", just going to say that I DO own a BAR-10, bought it about six months ago, used... I was looking at the DPMS, and the ARmalite, both of those were new, and I got a deal on the Bushmaster from a guy going overseas... I decided to try it and see how it worked out rather than picking up either of the other two that were still in production and available at any time down the road. I didn't want to wait for the RRA, which is supposed to be 100% identical to the BM, so I figured if I NEEDED spare parts down the road, I would have some access to them. I also spoke with BM directly prior to purchasing the rifle and was told that even though they aren't manufacturing the rifles they will do still do warranty work on them and make sure the customer is happy. I got the 16" with the ACE skeleton stock and have been extremely pleased with the low felt recoil of the weapon. I did have a problem with the mags at first that came with the gun, 2 20's and 2 30's, but I have since bought some higher quality FAL mags and am waiting to get them out to the range and give the entire set up a going over. I like the fit, finish, and quality of the gun and parts, but I don't have any information about MOA accuracy since I have only been able to shoot it at a 25 yard indoor range so far. I like it, if you can get it for a good price, I'd say get it... otherwise grab a DPMS for the money savings and quality... or an ARmalite for the originality and quality.. just my .02 |
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For factual information on the LAR-8, please refer to the Official LAR-8 thread in the RRA forum that is linked earlier in this thread. Every brand and rifle within a brand will have its benefactors and detractors. We realize that. We also realize that there are those who will defend whatever choices that they've made by denegrating the competition rather than discussing the positive values of the product they chose to own, carry, or endorse. It happens. I cannot discuss contractual terms, licensing agreements, proprietary manufacturing information, vendors, etc...nor should anyone else within RRA be doing so. Suffice to say that the LAR-8 will be the most tested rifle that RRA has ever produced. Prototypes will have seen more rounds in testing than probably 99% of the rifles sold will see in their lifetimes. We intend to stand behind the project and the rifle fully, including extending the RRA Limited Lifetime Warranty against failure of factory parts and labor to the LAR-8. We are making a selection of accessories for the platform as well as bringing in some of the biggest players in the "aftermarket" to make accessories also. The LAR-8 isn't a flash in the pan that'll be here in a few weeks and gone shortly thereafter. I'm not just toeing the company line here, either. I happen to be one of the people on the back order list. I have confidence in the original design, the design improvements made to it, and the rifle itself. Thanks for "listening". Steve/RRA |
Nuff Sedd Thanks Steve for the input. |
Really?  Testing what? Testing will not make a poor design better. Testing will validate that a poor design exist. It sounds like you are testing this thing because it does not work. Why have the dates been pushed back? My guess is it is either a design issue or a vendor issue. |
They're testing it because people think like you. How would you go about testing the reliability of a design or changes to a design? I'll clue you in - you test (shoot) it a lot. A whole lot - until it breaks, then you figure out why it broke, fix it, then start over again testing it. What standard do you use to determine if a gun is reliable? 10,000 rounds with no problems? 20,000 rounds? 50,000 rounds? Until the gun simply wears out? It takes time to accomplish that, imagine having to do it everytime you make a design change or discover a problem. |
Good Lord Always someone looking to argue after facts are posted....go figure The original design bad "flaw" (fractured bolt tails)was addressed a couple years ago. RIF Now the original charging handle ball catch is kinda squirrelly but wasnt a deal breaker for me. Hopefully its been changed to the original AR style charging handle catch. Common sense tells one if tweaking an engineering design the tweaks will possibly changed other aspects that were fine before the tweak. Dominos come to mind. Taking time to work out all bugs that arise is SMART BUSINESS SENSE. to quote myself again
RIF, slow down and stop speed reading, you suck at it.
Damn, this thread has run its course. |
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If I was going to release a new firearm I would make absolutly sure it was perfect. I would test it for reliability and accuracy right down to the correct twist and profile of the rifling. Test the crap out of it just like the big green does. If you release something to early to beat the competition you take a chance at having problems just like the first time around with the BAR and the Grendels bolts. The first impression is everything and rumors spread like wildfire. Some can never recover from the first issue and the bad press. I don't think these guys want to make the same mistake twice. BB, you sure talk alot for someone who doesn't own one. I don't own one either. Why? because I can buy DPMS bull barreled rifles and replace the barrels with custom ones from Mike Rock that shoot .5moa cheaper. I have 3. |
The problem with the Bushmaster guns was simple. They had some initial design problems that looked on the surface to be worked out. The Bushmasters were also about $200 more than an Armalite AR-10 that has a chrome lined bbl. I visit 2 BM's that have been in local shops for a few YEARS now. Their kinda dusty since no one looks at them. One of them is a first run too! Their must be something at issue on the RRA 308. Quotes above are from the original thread that's now locked. They are rapidly closing in on 4 full months of "waiting on lowers". Someone is full of crap. |
I'm not questioning your credibility, just pointing out an inconsistency. I'm fairly certain that RRA created and licensed the original design, but I doubt that they made the guns for BFI. If RRA had previously manufactured the .308s they would have a supply line and production system already established and resuming production would be relatively simple, even with the minor design changes/tweaks. |
| Not trying to beat a dead horse but I have a 20" BAR-10 with an Ace stock & regular upper (not flat-top). I also have a lot of other rifles, pistols & shotguns. Probably more than most on this site. Also, besides my own, my family has always been into collecting, which is to say even more of a variety. I've also been in a past life, an 0351, 0341 and an 0331. That means I have fired pretty much all's there is for any degree of argument. Now, out of all of this, the one that I like the most, the one that just fits me the best is that BAR-10. Always, just a pleasure to fire. Never a hic-up, ever. Say what you may, call it personal choice, your one of the lucky few, whatever. Just throwing my 2ยข in. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Bushmaster 308 (Page 1 of 2)
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