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Posted: 12/25/2005 6:36:39 AM EDT
Besides cleaning, What are the pros and cons of this over Stoner's original setup?? Inquiring minds wanna know
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 9:41:58 AM EDT
They're newer, and all the cool kids have them?

Don't you want to be a cool kid?

(seriously, mainly seems to be an effort to keep the debris out of the action.)
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 9:46:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/25/2005 9:48:26 AM EDT by StealthyBlagga]
Unless you are too lazy, uneducated or busy to clean your weapon, the only real advantage might be slightly improved reliability under adverse conditions (dirt, extended combat missions etc.). THIS REMAINS TO BE PROVEN !!! Cool factor wears off quickly.

Disadvantages could include greater complexity (more to break), increased weight and, reduced accuracy. Certainly such systems will cost more in the foreseeable future.

I'll wait, thanks.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 11:04:30 AM EDT
reliability, reliability, reliability period..
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 11:45:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/25/2005 11:48:03 AM EDT by PAOPuke]
"Unless you are too lazy, uneducated or busy to clean your weapon" Err, no hinking.gif. Not the God of all knowledge, but have toted the M16A1 and M-16A2 for about 18 years now & have a clue about cleaning them & the pitfalls of improper maintenance as well he Sounds like a wait on the gas piston is warranted at present, de-bugged systems are a beautiful thing! hug.gif
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 12:05:41 PM EDT
Gas piston uppers are all the rage today, but they are not new... Colt had one back in the 60s and still has one today... Rhino had systems out in the 80s and there have been various other packages available throughout the life of the platform -- I have a piston upper that is 20 years old at least...

The single biggest advantage (imho) is that they allow for use of a short barrel (and suppressed) without having gas tube timings all screwed up -- I guess the fact that they do not dump gas into the receiver is a big plus as well, but I would not even consider an indirect inpingement system on anything with a barrel over 16", the inherent accuracy of the DI system is too hard to beat.

As for reliable? Well, like I said, they have been around for 40 years and we dont sit around the camp fire and sing songs about them... if you want a gas piston system, get a Sig 550, at least it is a proven design that you know parts will be available for...

Also, I will get beat up over the accuracy comment, but the fact is that they suffer from verticle stringing due to piston slap (of course), this is why the HK is so heavy, they had to add a pound of weight to the barrel to make it stiff enough to stop the stringing... Laws of physics, the piston is attached to the barrel, a force equal to and opposite of the force put on the operating rod is put in the piston housing, this forces the front of the barrel down with each shot...

Well, we have a hybrid gas piston for short barreled guns, it is a good idea. Colt has some plans and there are mot likely some changes coming there anyway... will be interesting to see what happens...
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 3:38:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/25/2005 3:52:17 PM EDT by LeitnerWise]
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 3:45:28 PM EDT
I've been following this with interest, and the lack of carbon in the receiver is probably one of the lesser advantages of the system. The short stroke piston, that is: long stroke pistons are inferior.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 5:09:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/25/2005 5:10:20 PM EDT by bigbore]
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 5:41:41 PM EDT
I wonder why so many people are scared to try a gas piston AR. If you shoot both of them side by side, you will see why they are better. More confident cycling, cleaner running, no heat on the bolt or carrier, and they shoot any type of ammo.
All I say is dont knock a gas piston AR until you have shot one. I have high dollar direct gas AR's and still wouldnt trade my POF M4 for any of them. I will be building nothing but piston AR's from now on. They are the future!
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 6:24:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/25/2005 6:27:41 PM EDT by Green0]
"I wonder why so many people are scared to try a gas piston AR."

So many unknowns is probably part of it. High cost is another.

Durability, compatibility with other products [rail systems, silencers, buffers, flash hiders etc], and accuracy with systems other than direct gas are not textbook data with the new systems currently availible.

At least the users know the DI systems are going to run, provide accuracy, provide reasonable durability, and are compatible with most products availible. The low cost encourages DI where the high cost and many other unknowns discourage people from trying other new systems.

The biggest potential advantage is a cleaner running rifle- but with suppressors that may not happen or at least possibly not in an effective manor.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 6:40:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bigbore:
Spend the money on practice ammo. Then again, people love to spend money attempting to fix something that isnt broke.
There may be a piston upper adopted by the .mil someday, but until then I'd stick whith what you know works.



+1

Fixing something that anit broke with a heaver more complecated system that doesn't have spare parts everywhere.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 6:42:03 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 6:57:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/25/2005 6:58:42 PM EDT by Gunzilla]

Originally Posted By SRTM4:
I wonder why so many people are scared to try a gas piston AR. If you shoot both of them side by side, you will see why they are better. More confident cycling, cleaner running, no heat on the bolt or carrier, and they shoot any type of ammo.
All I say is dont knock a gas piston AR until you have shot one. I have high dollar direct gas AR's and still wouldnt trade my POF M4 for any of them. I will be building nothing but piston AR's from now on. They are the future!



I would hardly say that I am scared of piston uppers... those who know me know I have actually been playing with them for a long time, I have owned a few of the commercial models and built several of my own... Yes, I currently have one and enjoy shooting it, but I am not even close to saying that they are the only way to go... I also will remind you that only a few decades ago, the direct inpingement system was *the future*.

For most people on here they are great, really... they have a very high "look at me factor" and set one's rifle apart from all of the other guns out there. Also, most people here don't really have to think about staying operational if a part breaks, they just go home, get on the internet, order a new one and then hang out till the part comes...

I can say that trying to stay in the envelope of the exisiting platform makes for some problems to get around (note that some manufactures just gave up and bumped the envelope out). As people work more with the idea, there are improvements, once was a time that a GP upper would shear the bolt lug off like clockwork, but that seems to be a thing of the past now...

I guess the biggest reason that I can not get too jacked up about "the future" is that most of it is a rehash of the past, nothing really new out there... I really, really hope that one of the current crop (or perhaps one of the designs that has not been made publlic yet!) does take off and is made the standard, and then it is used a perfected through a few wars and replacement parts are dime a dozen even in the most shithole place on earth -- but in my travels, I have not seen an indecation of this.

Please, by all means, if you want one get one! Only the adoption of a design and monitary support of the builder will keep the idea alive, but let's not poke fun at the old farts that feel comfortable with what they know gets the job done... k?
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 12:05:16 AM EDT
I completely understand that people want to keep their direct gas guns. Its hard to break old habits. I know that they run and are proven unlike the piston systems for the AR.
I just have to give credit where credit is due. When shooting the 2 different systems back to back ,there is no comparison. All of my direct gas AR's are sweet. They all run damm near perfect. Its just that the direct gas gun has a certain design flaw to it. The world knows it and why not accept that a piston is an improvement.
Sure getting parts would definately be an issue right now. Thats true. That will change as time goes on. I do not think the piston in the AR is going away this time. More and more people are buying them as we speak. Some are buying them for the jump on the bandwagon thing and others are realizing that there is something better out there and feel an obvious need for it.
I may eat my words but I bet that in the not so distant fututre that even the big name vendors here will be selling piston AR's.
Im no genius but I call it like I see it. After shooting both types of gas designs in my rifles there is no doubt that the piston is better.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 4:21:40 AM EDT
God , how you people love to argue

I have 4 ARs , many people here have WAY more.

If I want to try a Piston upper , the only thing I'm gonna be
worrying about is the $$$ it costs me to be High Speed Tactical Cool
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 6:00:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AKsRule:
God , how you people love to argue

I have 4 ARs , many people here have WAY more.

If I want to try a Piston upper , the only thing I'm gonna be
worrying about is the $$$ it costs me to be High Speed Tactical Cool



HA! Thats what this board feeds on. Thats our Manly way of teaching each other.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 7:52:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/26/2005 7:54:15 AM EDT by NewbHunter]

Originally Posted By Green0:
"I wonder why so many people are scared to try a gas piston AR."

So many unknowns is probably part of it. High cost is another.

Durability, compatibility with other products [rail systems, silencers, buffers, flash hiders etc], and accuracy with systems other than direct gas are not textbook data with the new systems currently availible.

At least the users know the DI systems are going to run, provide accuracy, provide reasonable durability, and are compatible with most products availible. The low cost encourages DI where the high cost and many other unknowns discourage people from trying other new systems.

The biggest potential advantage is a cleaner running rifle- but with suppressors that may not happen or at least possibly not in an effective manor.



The other potential advantage that I've seen claimed is that you increase reliability on a suppressed SBR because the bolt doesn't heat up nearly as much with a piston as with direct gas contact. Not sure how true that claimed increased reliability is though.

Even if it was true, I'm still not sold on a gas piston system. DI has a minimum of moving parts and I like that. Piston uses more moving parts, so higher chance of something breaking (even if it's a very minimal chance).

But, since I haven't used any gas piston system in the AR I'm looking forward to seeing how things go with them as they get more popular. For now I'm sticking with DI though.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 8:32:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/26/2005 8:40:26 AM EDT by AKM]
I look at them as….."The quest for the magic sword".

IMO the main advantage of the AR-15 over all other Military rifles is its accuracy and lightweight. Anything that compromises this is not an improvement.

Link Posted: 12/26/2005 9:12:23 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 9:23:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LeitnerWise:
Well it's a good job they INCREASE the accuracy of the AR platform then.



evidentiary
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 9:34:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SRTM4:
Its just that the direct gas gun has a certain design flaw to it.



And that flaw is?
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 10:21:47 AM EDT
Basically, there's a few 'issues' that people assume plague the AR platform...

Like most firearms situations (9mm vs 45acp) the minute there is a problem with something 'new', the reflex is to go back to 'the old way'...

So, we have the 'newest' firearm operating design (Stoner direct-gas), which had some problems in the early days (well documented) that were also fixed back then... But the ghosts of the past are still here, and people reflexively think that something older (gas-piston, vis-a-vis M1 Garand, M14, FAL, AK) would be better... For further evidence, they turn to weapons generally based on an 'improved' FN or AK piston system....

The problem is that the 'issues' with the AR are moot - the only valid comment is that the reciever gets dirty, and that may/may-not hold true depending on your configuration (supressor or short barrel)... If you look at it practically, there is no real reliability advantage (so, you have to clean every 4,000 rounds instead of 8,000? Who shoots 4,000 rounds without a clean-up (keeping in mind that the base load for an infantry soldier is 210 rounds (3 mags/ammo pouch + 1 loaded))...

As for accuracy, let's look at the long list of military weapons WITH piston operation...

Now, price for price, caliber for caliber (counting 7.62x39 in the same class as 5.56, NOT 7.62x51), compare with the Stoner AR... You will not find, for the same cost & class (let's face it, even the .gov cares about that number) another semi-auto military weapon that is more accurate. Period. Yes, you can bring up the SIG 55x series, or the HK PSG/MSG... But once again, if you spend the same amount on an AR-pattern weapon that it would cost to buy either of the above made-in-the-USA (As required for a government contract), the AR platform will win. Period.

Oh, and for the above price comment, I was referring to prices as they would be for the govt, so the import ban is a non-issue.

If the piston op system is so much better, how come the most recent rifle contract (for a sniper weapons system, no less) went to Knights, for a piston-free design... I'm sure HK would have loved to get the MSG (or similar) in there, and we all know there's a big HK fan-club in the Army... But Knight's won... Hmm...
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 10:24:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/26/2005 10:24:50 AM EDT by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By ar15_rifleman:

Originally Posted By SRTM4:
Its just that the direct gas gun has a certain design flaw to it.



And that flaw is?



He's going to say 'shits where it eats'... Hmm...

Funny, but there are plenty of piston-op weapons that do the same thing, by merit of being open-bolt...

Of course, I'd never advocate a direct-gas system for a belt-fed weapon (piston-op makes sense there, to drive the feed pawls), but the point remains the same - almost every machinegun (using the military term, not the ATF's) except the Browning M2 & M1919 'shits where it eats', and that really hasn't been a problem, has it?
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 10:54:03 AM EDT
Do not get me wrong here. I love all of my AR's. Thats not the arguement. They are extremely accurate and quite ergonomic. I wouldnt take any other assault rifle to war with me. Im simply stating that the one flaw in the AR is the direct gas impingement. Getting the chamber , bolt ,and carrier are all examples but I believe that heat is the real issue with the direct gas impingement. Both the ejector and extractor springs along with the bolt and carrier all function under extreme heat. This weakens your springs over time and I do beleive that affects the reliablity.
All of the timing issues from a direct gas AR when changing barrel lengths goes away with a piston. Having the right recoil spring, the right weight buffer,the right port hole in the barrel are not nearly as critical in a piston as is with the direct gas.
Accuracy is no different with a piston. Maybe if we shooting out to 800 plus yards but my POF is everybit as accurate as my bushmaster M4. That is a silly old myth! Just ask the guys from LW how accurate their piston Ar's shoot.
At the end of the day when you are in combat , you want reliability over everything else and a piston brings that!
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 11:59:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AKM:
I look at them as….."The quest for the magic sword".

IMO the main advantage of the AR-15 over all other Military rifles is its accuracy and lightweight. Anything that compromises this is not an improvement.




And oddly enough a piston system has zero impact on either of those.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 12:06:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SRTM4:
Do not get me wrong here. I love all of my AR's. Thats not the arguement. They are extremely accurate and quite ergonomic. I wouldnt take any other assault rifle to war with me. Im simply stating that the one flaw in the AR is the direct gas impingement. Getting the chamber , bolt ,and carrier are all examples but I believe that heat is the real issue with the direct gas impingement. Both the ejector and extractor springs along with the bolt and carrier all function under extreme heat. This weakens your springs over time and I do beleive that affects the reliablity.
All of the timing issues from a direct gas AR when changing barrel lengths goes away with a piston. Having the right recoil spring, the right weight buffer,the right port hole in the barrel are not nearly as critical in a piston as is with the direct gas.
Accuracy is no different with a piston. Maybe if we shooting out to 800 plus yards but my POF is everybit as accurate as my bushmaster M4. That is a silly old myth! Just ask the guys from LW how accurate their piston Ar's shoot.
At the end of the day when you are in combat , you want reliability over everything else and a piston brings that!



Coincedentally, a barrel length under 14.5 (under 16" some would say) makes for an extremely ineffective weapon, for ammo reasons - unless you go to a pistol caliber (in which case the gas system is moot, as those run blowback)...

Piston op, for COMBAT/REAL LIFE SCENARIOS does not bring any measurable reliability increase... In the end, you are spending money for zero improvement, and a possible (in many cases, real, as observed with the XM8 & HK gas-piston system) accuracy degradation...
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 2:06:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/26/2005 2:07:16 PM EDT by LeitnerWise]
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 3:00:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LeitnerWise:
You know, I really try and avoid getting caught up in these discussions when it is obvious to all that the information being imparted is incorrect. That said, here are a few FACTS:

The currently offered AR piston systems give greater reliability than DI weapons in ALL environmental conditions; they require less maintenance, are more ammunition tolerant and run cooler offering less wear.

They are also more accurate the DI weapons by virtue of the FACT that the barrel is truly free floated. In the DI weapon, the barrel is not free floated until the carrier group has fully unlocked and has travelled over one inch rearward, well after this can have any positive effect of accuracy; with the piston driven weapons, the barrel is free floated at the moment of firing, which allows the barrel to whip and produce consistant results which are uneffected by barrel temperature.
While weight may be a factor with some of the piston systems out there, it is not with all; weight neutrality was one of the design briefs.

Now I'm not saying that DI weapons are crap or unreliable or anything else for that matter, I'm just reporting facts. The old myths do not apply to the current generation of piston weapons because the designers knew from the outset that they had to improve upon the existing platform otherwise, what was the point? Most here are not privy to current military thinking; well I meet with these guys everyday and like it or not, DI is a thing of the past. The only reason Knight's won the SASS solicitation was because HK had not completed the 417 in time, if they had, they would have won hands down.

Pay your money and take your choice but do so with balanced information and not with rehashed myths that are dead and buried.



Thats right! Listen to the people that know!!!
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 3:05:46 PM EDT
Most people on here have never fired a piston operated AR. They should refrain from negative comments until doing so. I think that they would have a different opinion after firing a POF , LW , or any other modern piston op system made today.
That being said, most of us internet warriors probably do not need a piston op AR. Some may not be able to justify the cost when you are only using your AR for plinking but for military , law enforcent, or home defense I would highly recommend trying a POF or LW out!
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 5:15:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LeitnerWise:
They are also more accurate the DI weapons by virtue of the FACT that the barrel is truly free floated. In the DI weapon, the barrel is not free floated until the carrier group has fully unlocked and has travelled over one inch rearward, well after this can have any positive effect of accuracy; with the piston driven weapons, the barrel is free floated at the moment of firing, which allows the barrel to whip and produce consistant results which are uneffected by barrel temperature.



Huh are you trying to imply that the gas tube sitting inside the carrier key somehow is applying pressure to the barrel? There is no forward pressure and any lateral pressure is mitigated because the gas tube has no lateral rigidity over the distance from the carrier key to the gas block. According to this diagram your system has forward spring pressure against the gas block.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 9:37:30 PM EDT
The fact remains that piston operated uppers are far and few between in availability of parts. The more variants of piston operated uppers, the more splintered the market is.

I was originally attracted to the piston uppers and would not have minded paying the higher price. However, after considering parts availability for repairs, interchangeability, compatibility with current accessories (free floated hand guards, SIR) and etc. it quickly became clear to me that piston operated uppers are not the way to go.

Do yourself a favor and check your local gun store/smith and see if they have parts for any piston operated upper. Then assess the customer service response/availability of the factory.

If you feel comfortable with them for a SHTF weapon, then by all means do it.

Personally I don't feel comfortable with them. Not until there is a "standard" or a market adopted piston operated upper system.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 10:34:48 PM EDT
The AR's DI system is ammo (powder) finnicky. Stoner himself stated that the AR was designed to operate w/ specific ammo & in specific conditions. The ball v. stick powder fiasco that cost servicemen their lives in 'Nam was in no small part due to the nature of the DI op-system (Please - let's shit-can the "they just needed cleaning kits" argument. Cleaning kits should not be a necessity for any battlefield-grade weapon). Fickleness is not - NOT, that is - a desirable trait for a battlefield weapon.

To take it from L-W himself, indirect systmes have been incrementally improved over time. The argument that accuracy is compromised is also a dead one. Short-stroke systems have dmonstrated accuracy equal to or better than that delivered by DI in the form of the AR.

So, if you like the DI system over indirect systems - that's great. Just stop arguing, myths. The world is round.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 10:48:29 PM EDT
"All of the timing issues from a direct gas AR when changing barrel lengths goes away with a piston. Having the right recoil spring, the right weight buffer,the right port hole in the barrel are not nearly as critical in a piston as is with the direct gas. "

According to LW and a customer their system had an aversion to a common 9mm buffer widely used in standard DI weapons with no problems. I think this supports the opposite of that statement.

That LW post about truly free-floating is rediculous-- when the Ar15 platform has proven to be one the most accurate self-loading designs ever devised in a field compised mostly of piston driven competition, I feel it is pretty obvious that the gas tube isn't effecting accuracy at all in any measureable way. There are guys who have shot 3inch groups and smaller at 600meters with DI Ar15 platform weapons.

The opposite is closer to the truth; gas piston systems generally create obstacles to accuracy work. The M14 and pre-mature unlocking of the bolt is a good example. Another is the simple lack of an accurized sample of any gas piston operated military issue weapon that produces accuracy better than that capable with the AR15/DI system.

If you are pointing at a PSG-1 your not pointing at a more accurate weapon. M-14's with enough money and work might be able to nearly equal that sort of performance but there you are talking individual skilled wetnursing and work in the $5000-10,000 range, not simple assembly as with the DI Ar15.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 11:36:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/26/2005 11:37:50 PM EDT by stiles]

Originally Posted By Green0:
According to LW and a customer their system had an aversion to a common 9mm buffer widely used in standard DI weapons with no problems. I think this supports the opposite of that statement.



personally I'd temperate this as a heavy recoiling mass is not always a good thing nor is it fast. The explanation that was given is the piston system pushes in preportion to the recoiling mass and when the mass is out of wack with the system has a tendency to push the mass around too fast and hence making the sights bobble up and down and the rifle jerks around. Just something you have to keep in mind I guess, any ways a lighter recoiling mass is faster and if the system likes such a setup doesn't sound bad to me.

I still think the free floated comments and related comments in defense of accuracy are just full of brown substance.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 3:34:49 AM EDT
As both the DI system and the short-stroke piston push the bolt carrier back with just about equal force (obviously), it shouldn't matter whether the force is mediated by gass or a metallic short-stroke piston, as far as accuracy goes. The short-stroke piston has a very short range of movement, so the overal shift in the weapons center of gravity is negligible (the shift in CG adds to the recoil, in this case the addition is almost non-excistent, but its there). Essentially the op rod just gives a short sharp push to the bolt carrier, and returns by spring force while the carrier completes the cycle independently.

The long-stroke AK style piston is a different animal. The piston travels the whole range of movement together with the bolt carrier, so there is a lot of mass in motion and the effects on the weapons CG and perceived recoil are more pronounced. An AK can be built quite accurate despite of this, just look at the Valmet. Accuracy is not all about the operating system, there are other aspects in the AK system that reduce accuracy.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 5:07:16 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 5:29:23 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 5:40:23 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 5:54:21 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 6:16:01 AM EDT
Man, some people really hate change...
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 6:29:46 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 7:43:15 AM EDT
Here is my first group with my new 16" LW556CP. 100yds, standard 1/7 chromelined barrel, resting on a cardboard box, with stock trigger, 60gr Blackhills VMax Blue box, and a cheap 4.5x microdot scope.

Only issue is the user induced horizontal stringing (but I'm sure someone will blame that on the piston ).

Personally I'm convinced there is no accuracy degradation with my piston upper.

Considering the conditions, I'm confident this upper is capable of much better.

Link Posted: 12/27/2005 8:38:15 AM EDT
Until I see conclusive results i.e. the Govt., Military switches all of their Ars to a Gas Piston system I will stick with a standard Direct gas system it just does not make economic sense in my case to change for a Problem that does not exist with my Rifle. I clean and maintain my AR and it has not failed me.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 9:03:24 AM EDT
Paul...

Please allow me to throw a few things out, first being that I am not at all scared of gas pistons or change, I have gas piston AR uppers older than a lot of people posting on this board. In fact, if you recall at SHOT 04, when you brought a .499 to our booth to see if we would display it, I also had Frank's gas piston rifle to show? I was sort of happy to see what Frank was doing, we talked about the idea... but as I recall, you really were not interested in gas pistons then? Times change though huh?

Okay, as for the accuracy thing, this is just nuts – a traditional gas piston imparts counter force on the barrel to which it is mounted, time does not change the laws of physics. Short stroke and gas tappet designs reduce this a great deal but every designer so far has had to go to a stiffer barrel to get the shot group to tighten up. So while people may come along and say that they get MOA at 100 yards, big deal, what rifle won't shoot MOA at 100 yards? (okay the mini-14, but even it will shoot MOA with a stiffer barrel).

So the argument is really potential for accuracy... Maybe you have found the Holy Grail? I would like to see a piston upper and a DI upper, both with say a 16 – 18” lightweight barrel shot side-by-side? But I think that a general (all other things being equal) statement that gas piston rifles are MORE accurate than DI rifles is whacked! Ask around, anyone that has built a gas piston gun to shoot for accuracy? Is your system accurate enough for a battle rifle? I am sure that it is, probably more than enough, but to come out and say that the design makes the rifle more accurate is highly suspect.

Which brings me to the next thing... perhaps a problem that some see and there really is no nice way to broach this other than just speak the truth: You have to admit that products associated with L-W have a history of falling short of some pretty spectacular claims with the military and I am sure that some still have a bad taste in their mouth.

Let's see... Oh that DI gas system is so out of whack that it has to run the buffer from a blowback system – not true, not at all. There is one iteration of the gas system (the carbine length) that is so out of whack that it runs better with a heavy buffer, but that is an aberration of what the system is supposed to be. The improved gas system we developed for the M4 will NOT run with a 9mm buffer, it short strokes. In fact, the original gas system (13” port location, 20” barrel) is one of the most reliable designs in history and has served longer than nearly any other design. Now like I have said in the past, on a short barreled rifle, the gas piston design is the best choice, but as you know the short barrel is not so popular with a lot of folk anyway. But again, for you to take the one (worst) example of the DI system and paint all of the rifles with this broad brush stroke is terribly disingenuous.

Historically the gas piston upper has not done well in this platform... we do tell all the people watching at home that gas piston uppers date back to the 60s right? Colt had one in the early development of the rifle and there have been dozens of other efforts (I still have a Rhino system, or parts of one anyway). But the deal here is that the rifle IS designed to be a DI rifle and most of the kits on the market just plug into what is already there – now they are out of place little bits, gas pistons trying to make an entire system that believe it is now something different. The only really successful rifles have scrapped the idea of drop in retro fit and thought outside the box... even HK had to make some changes, Daewoo, T65, etc, etc... Hey, have you shot Colts new gas piston though?

Well, this is just me thinking out loud, but at least thinking... I do wish you well with the design though.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 10:52:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2005 10:59:44 AM EDT by mr_h]

Originally Posted By Gunzilla:
Hey, have you shot Colts new gas piston though?



what ????!!!!! please expand on that. i live under a rock sometimes

edit, oh wait. is that the colt m23? what's the story there?
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 11:36:04 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 11:50:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bigbore:

Originally Posted By LeitnerWise:

Originally Posted By bigbore:

Shooting for minute of bad guy, OK. Shooting in competition, the DI will win everytime.



Not so. We recently outshot a full up National Match set-up (20 inch barrel) with a 10.3" barrel piston upper - in this instance it came down to the shooters, but bottom line, there is no decrease in accuracy and in the right hands outstanding results can be achieved.



Whatever allows you to sell your stuff and still sleep at night

Since there will never be 20" piston upper fired in HP competition, I guess neither of us can prove the other wrong but I know better.

The sad part is, most people don't know enough to know how ridiculous your statement is.







+1
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 11:59:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ar15_rifleman:

Originally Posted By bigbore:

Originally Posted By LeitnerWise:

Originally Posted By bigbore:

Shooting for minute of bad guy, OK. Shooting in competition, the DI will win everytime.



Not so. We recently outshot a full up National Match set-up (20 inch barrel) with a 10.3" barrel piston upper - in this instance it came down to the shooters, but bottom line, there is no decrease in accuracy and in the right hands outstanding results can be achieved.



Whatever allows you to sell your stuff and still sleep at night

Since there will never be 20" piston upper fired in HP competition, I guess neither of us can prove the other wrong but I know better.

The sad part is, most people don't know enough to know how ridiculous your statement is.







+1



+2
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 12:04:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2005 12:07:29 PM EDT by AShooter]
As far as I can tell, my LW piston setup shoots as accurate with a 4x scope as anything I've ever owned. (that's 0.790 inches at 100 meters with Black Hills "seconds" Mk262)




So far only shot 200-300 rds through it, but it functions better than any other AR I've ever owned, too.

edited to add: And cleaning it after 100rds takes about 20 seconds, as opposed to the 20 minutes I've become acustomed to when using "crap-eater" uppers.


Link Posted: 12/27/2005 12:05:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2005 12:06:46 PM EDT by LeitnerWise]
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