Quoted: The historical ...front line.

Paul,

I have little time here really, but want to hit a couple of things... I understand these systems very well, I fear that you are not quiet grasping the fluid dynamics at play here however, so let's use rocket science!

Think of a rocket motor, the lift it generates is as a result of an equal and opposite (of the nozzle) force pushing on the inside on the motor chamber itself -- simple I know, but perhaps this will help?

I aint talking about gas tubes or blah blah blah, I am talking about the law of physics that says that whatever force is applied to to the operating rod IS ALSO applied to the opposite end of the cylinder and that force is tranfered (by virtue of the fact that the cylinder is attached to the barrel) to the barrel and pushes forward and down on the barrel with each shot...

I am glad that you alighn yourself with HK on this, as it only proves what I am saying... HK had to ADD the extra material to the barrel of their rifle to stop the vertical stringing from piston slap, this is why the gun weighs a pound more, your evidence supports what I am saying, are ya daft man?

I am not arguing that gas piston systems can be accurate, just that it is untrue to say that your system actually improves accuracy, all things BEING EQUAL! Also, there are hybrid systems in development right now that are the best of both systems and hold real promise... but I do commend you for what you are doing, just please... easy on the pontification.

Quoted: As far as I can tell, my LW piston setup shoots as accurate with a 4x scope as anything I've ever owned.  (that's 0.790 inches at 100 meters with Black Hills "seconds" Mk262) i17.photobucket.com/albums/b99/ashooter/lloydsstuff009.jpg So far only shot 200-300 rds through it, but it functions better than any other AR I've ever owned, too. edited to add:  And cleaning it after 100rds takes about 20 seconds, as opposed to the 20 minutes I've become acustomed to when using "crap-eater" uppers.

Nice! If you knocked that verticle stringing out of there it would a half minute gun for sure

Quoted: Whatever allows you to sell your stuff and still sleep at night Since there will never be 20" piston upper fired in HP competition, I guess neither of us can prove the other wrong but I know better. The sad part is, most people don't know enough to know how ridiculous your statement is.

Strong words there... If you haven't actually shot a modern gas piston upper side by side with a direct impingement rifle, how can you make such statements? Oh that's right, you just "know better". There seems to be a lot of that attitude going around this forum.

I would like to hear your rationale for claiming that a piston system can't be as accurate as an impingement system. From a physics standpoint the force equations are identical between the systems. The other uses a solid material connection between the carrier and the barrel, while the other has a gas pressure connection, but that's the only difference. Both the gas and the op rod mediate the same force, so what is it exactly that makes the piston inferior in your opinion?

Quoted: I aint talking about gas tubes or blah blah blah, I am talking about the law of physics that says that whatever force is applied to to the operating rod IS ALSO applied to the opposite end of the cylinder and that force is tranfered (by virtue of the fact that the cylinder is attached to the barrel) to the barrel and pushes forward and down on the barrel with each shot...

Gunzilla, the gas will also push the barrel in the same manner as the op rod. The bullet plugs the barrel and keeps the pressure up in the gas tube. When the bullet exits, the pressure drops out. This is why the short barrels a difficult for the DI guns, the pressure drops off too soon for the bolt to cycle completely. The gas pressure that pushes against the bolt carrier also pushes back on the gas block and the barrel. So you see, there is really no difference whether the force goes through gas or through a metal rod.

Quoted: Quoted: As far as I can tell, my LW piston setup shoots as accurate with a 4x scope as anything I've ever owned.  (that's 0.790 inches at 100 meters with Black Hills "seconds" Mk262) i17.photobucket.com/albums/b99/ashooter/lloydsstuff009.jpg So far only shot 200-300 rds through it, but it functions better than any other AR I've ever owned, too. edited to add:  And cleaning it after 100rds takes about 20 seconds, as opposed to the 20 minutes I've become acustomed to when using "crap-eater" uppers.   Nice! If you knocked that verticle stringing out of there it would a half minute gun for sure

Yeah, a gas tube burping carbon into the receiver with every shot might do it....  But my guess is that a 10x optic would do it even better!  

Regardless of any accuracy benefits, or lack thereof, the biggest advantage to any reasonably designed piston system is the lack of crap in the receiver after firing.  

I don't care how you slice it, there just isn't anything GOOD about a gas system that "craps where it eats" if the weapon is going to be used in combat.  Yes, our guys have learned to deal with this shortcoming, but what difference can it possibly make to anybody other than a designated marksman or a sniper whether the rifle shoots 0.5 MOA or 0.75 MOA?  My guess is that even most snipers wouldn't notice that difference in combat.



Hmm...  What kind of groups do you think M40A1's with 10 year old barrels shoot off the bench?   Does that mean those snipers are combat ineffective?  

Quoted: Quoted: As far as I can tell, my LW piston setup shoots as accurate with a 4x scope as anything I've ever owned.  (that's 0.790 inches at 100 meters with Black Hills "seconds" Mk262) i17.photobucket.com/albums/b99/ashooter/lloydsstuff009.jpg So far only shot 200-300 rds through it, but it functions better than any other AR I've ever owned, too. edited to add:  And cleaning it after 100rds takes about 20 seconds, as opposed to the 20 minutes I've become acustomed to when using "crap-eater" uppers.   Nice! If you knocked that verticle stringing out of there it would a half minute gun for sure

Ya, and combine my horizontal stringing and AShooter's vertical stringing an you've barely got better than AK accuracy!

Or, if you "knocked" out my horizontal stringing and ASHooter's vertical stringing we might be getting close to DI accuracy.

For some reason I'm hungry for spaghetti....

Nice shooting ASHooter.

Quoted: Second, please think about what you are writing.  The forces are contained by the bolt and the barrel extension, the piston head or cup pushes against the carrier key and this opens the breach.  It is exactly the same as the impingement system, there are no downward forces on the barrel.

Sorry Paul, but I have been playing with this system for 20 years, look at what you wrote: Then certainly the same amount of force is trying to push the gasblock the other direction, there are not that many laws of physics... DI systems are dealing with only fluid surfaces until you get to the bolt group, and there you have opposite forces at work to move the bolt carrier to the rear -- there has to be some oppostite force. It is possible to build and time accurate GP rifles, that is not what I am saying that it is not...

AShooter: I have been pushing for a GP system in service for a long time, all I am saying is that to date DOZENS of attempts to retrofit the existing system and stay within the operating envelope have failed! Time to start from scratch and make a system that is dedicated to be one thing and one thing only...

oaky Paul... I will bow out gracefully on this, one of my parents has taken ill and I am on the road this eveing to take care of those things I am sure we all fear...

So, you win, I can not be here for a few days to argue this with you, so I will leave with only this one thought -- if what you say is true, I can take your gas block and operating rod, mated together and clamp the rod in a vice. Then if I were to charge the gas block with compressed air, the gas block would not be forced off of the staionary operating rod, because there is no opposite force?

Pretty neat trick Paul...

Be well, and best wishes

The gas block of an unpinned DI upper would fly forward under that situation too.  What LW is saying is that once the bullet passes the gas port (or perhaps before?) the gasses passing into the nozzle and piston cup surrond and float the piston so that it does not contact the FSB/nozzle but are seperated by the propllant gasses.  I dont know if the air being pushed forward of the bullet as it is traveling down the barrel to the gas port is enough to float the piston system but it surely is after the bullet passes the gas port.  The effect of the gasses pressing on the FSB in response to them being canneld to the rear of the rifle through the gas block is the same as the DI system.

This means that the piston system is not contacting the barrel assembly AT ALL after the bullet passes the gas port.  The carrier key of a DI upper comes out of contact with the gas tube only after the carrier has moved which is after the bullet has left the barrel.

I don't really care either way as I'm more of a minute of haji kind of guy.

However, two things:

#1 I'd rather wait for the Military to test, evaluate, and adopt a new system rather than buy something non-standardized with-in the industry.  

#2 IF I did decide to try out a gas-piston AR, I would opt for POF over LW.  LW's constant, annoying trolling of every gas-piston thread, when they obviously have a biased, unobjective opinion is getting old and hurts their business.

Quoted: I don't really care either way as I'm more of a minute of haji kind of guy. However, two things: #1 I'd rather wait for the Military to test, evaluate, and adopt a new system rather than buy something non-standardized with-in the industry.   #2 IF I did decide to try out a gas-piston AR, I would opt for POF over LW.  LW's constant, annoying trolling of every gas-piston thread, when they obviously have a biased, unobjective opinion is getting old and hurts their business.

I only see Paul come in when people spread blatant misinformation like in this thread.  If a lie is repeated enough times it becomes the truth to the public.  If you want to buy the piston system that is heavier, louder, cant allow a return to DI system if it goes TU and requires you to mess with it if you want to attach your suppressor that is fine, but I hardly think a manufacturer correcting misstaments is a valid, or at least  intelligent, reason to do so.

I think Paul LW is claiming something like the "air-hockey" principle. The plastic air-hockey puck floats over the table on a layer of air. Similarly, PLW seems to be saying the gas-piston cup, when filled with hot gas, rides, or "floats," around the piston nozzle and doesn't touch the nozzle.

If it is not making contact with the nozzle, which is attached to the barrel, then at that millisecond the barrel is "free-floated" because the piston, strictly speaking, is NOT connected to or touching the barrel assembly in any way.

This is the theory, and if I understand it correctly, then I understand what he's trying to say. Now, of course, as the piston cup is filled with hot gas and starts to slide backwards off of the gas nozzle, there's nothing to prevent it from sliding backwards unevenly and bumping and scraping against the gas nozzle. Thus it might not be truly free-floated, even for a millisecond, as the theory suggests.

Also, the location of the bullet relative to the movement of the gas-piston parts would have to be known.

This theory on the part of HK and as echoed by PLW seems plausible to me, but of course needs to be scientifically tested.

John

Quoted: This theory on the part of HK and as echoed by PLW seems plausible to me, but of course needs to be scientifically tested. John

I find this to be ironic. Maybe it's just me.

Dport wrote: "I find this to be ironic. Maybe it's just me."

Not following ya there. Care to clarify?

John

Quoted: Dport wrote: "I find this to be ironic. Maybe it's just me." Not following ya there. Care to clarify? John

6.5, short barrels and ballistics gellatin. It's off topic, but I remember many of us calling for scientific testing of the 6.5 out of a short barrel for quite some time.

Why argue over which is better?  You have 2 groups of people here.  Ones that have lots of experience with DI and ones with lots of experience with both.  Until you have experience with this particular system, you argue for arguments sake.  And you know what they say about arging on the internet.  You can't change my mind.  I was a weapons tech (land) in the CF attached to a line unit, you will never change mine.  Your mind will never change as long as:

A) you keep theorizing yet have no hands on experience about what you talk.
B) piston guns are in direct competition to how you make a living.

I had the very same ongoing debate with John Noveske over the past month or so albeit on the phone.  He is doing some special barrel work for us.  We did an exchange of services and built an upper for him.  He wanted to test it mainly for suppressor use and to explore the stringing issue.  He is an expert at what he does and having the upper would allow him to explore the hype and the claims.

He was impressed.  He said it does what we said it would.  He said it runs cleaner with and without the suppressor.  He said the handling was improved.  He recognized the cyclic rate did not increase with the suppressor supporting the already doccumented high speed video proof the piston does not move off or vent until the round has left the chamber.  He noted the weapon was self regulating by virtue of its harder and faster recoil stroke with heavier buffers, he noted the steps taken to mitigate carrier tilt.  He thought the worksmanship was fantastic.

All that being said, he has no problem with direct impingement and takes your line that this is a novelty.  The fact is that he builds DI guns for special ops and they do work and are reliable because the men using them are well trained and take care of their weapons.  He also build weapons that are essentially semi auto tac drivers for recreational shooters.

40 years of service has bashed into every head that if you take care of your weapon it will take care of you.  This is mostly true.  But what if, god forbid you cannot?  This is a standard military doctrine.  Ask the Brits about the SA80.  The Gov told them they were at fault for their weapons not working in Afganistan.  Please tell me the Royal Marine Commando's did not take care of their weapons.  Yet these Jihadists and talibani's seemed to be able to dump rounds at will out of their AK's with more bedazzler jewels, rust and martigras bead adornment than a Christmas Tree.

The maintence dudes who were ambushed at the start of the Iraq war.  Everybody blames them for their weapon not working or how much lube or lack of lube,,,whatever.  Would a piston have made a difference?  Maybe so as the HK and LW piston system is far better at self regulation in overcoming fouled weapons.

The military is not asking for more impingement guns.  That is a cold hard fact.  Please read the SCAR solicitation amoungst others.

Please pervey the other weapon boards.  HKPRO, FAL FILES, AK NET.  See how many threads are about how those systems "wont run."  Take a look a look at this site.  Threads and threads about how stupid a guy is because he runs the wrong this, or that.  Using the wrong lube.  Whatever.

The thing should work out of the box and shoot under range conditions almost indefinately without stoppage.  In war conditions, it should work without an hour of maintenece.

Effect on accurracy?  Vertical stringing?  None on the LW system.  This cup is very lightweight, with a recoil stroke of 0.6" while floating on subsonic venting gas, does not actually make its pushoff (overcome mass and springs of the action) until the bullet is out of the weapon.

Does it improve accuracy?  Not in the conventional sense.

I don't know if I could have done this with a standard DI gun but I shot a 10.3 freefloated with ACB at the Waldorf VA range, clay pigeons without effort with an ACOG at 250YDS.  That my fiends is a between the eyes shot with a 10.3" barrel.  I suspect it had alot to do with the freefloat tube, the ACB and its max tol. lugs.

I don't care to argue.  If you don't think you need it, you probably don't.  So don't buy one.

If you do need it, you know it.  The guys from the 5th SF love their uppers, as do the 7000 or so who have received the 416.  Is it a threat to the DI dealers and builders?  Not really.  Manufacturers of AR parts can't keep up with current demand, so I wouldn't get my knickers in a knot.

Peace.

Yes , I do not see LW as trolling. They are merely defending their product from misinformation. Im glad to see when representatives from the manufactures come on and explain the product they sell. It helps as long as it doesnt turn into a flame war.
I do not even own an LW and I support there product for what it is.
There are both positives and negatives in either gas system. Choose the one that best suits you.
I know what is best for me. I have both and if the piston was not better I would say so.
I also truely beleive that our troops would benifit from a piston driven M4. Absolutey better reliability and cleaner running. Throw in some HK mags (I probably shouldnt open up another can of worms here)and you have the best of all worlds. An M4 with AK reliability. Presto!!!!!

Dport, I see. You're right, it's off-topic, but remember this one point: I'm not nor have ever been officially associated with AA in any way and I can't tell them what to do. So don't look to me to somehow sneak into their facilities and chop up one of their barrels and do some gel testing with it and then present the world with short-barrel terminal ballistics on the 6.5 Grendel.

As close as I am to them because they happen to like that I happen to like their product, I'm with the rest of the general public in begging them for test results.

Now, my apologies to the rest of you; back to whether a short-stroke gas-piston truly "free-floats" for a millisecond or not.

John

Quoted: Dport...John

Sorry John, I was fooled by the name.

Quoted: I think Paul LW is claiming something like the "air-hockey" principle.... <snip> ...Now, of course, as the piston cup is filled with hot gas and starts to slide backwards off of the gas nozzle, there's nothing to prevent it from sliding backwards unevenly and bumping and scraping against the gas nozzle. Thus it might not be truly free-floated, even for a millisecond, as the theory suggests....

Correct me if I'm wrong Paul, but...

One thing that has not been mentioned here yet is that the gas nozzle has grooves in it, AND the nozzle itself is "stepped down" in diameter a little bit at each groove.  Also, the cup has 3 bleed-off holes at 12, 4 and 8 o'clock, and the cup is not solidly attached to the intermediate push-rod.  All of this has the effect of making the cup to nozzle fit progressively looser as the cup moves rearward, and this combined with the nozzle being slightly tapered down toward the receiver, FORCES the cup to be floated on gas as it moves rearward.  It can rotate if it wants to, and the inside diameter of the cup is larger than the nozzle, so it CAN'T "bump and scrape" against the nozzle!  It's impossible.

I don't know if it's any more or less accurate than a direct impingement system, but it is really very well thought out...  amazingly so, if you take the time to really look into it.

And it works as advertised!  (at least it has so far for me and everybody else who has one.)

"Any comparisons with the M14 are just asinine."

Well they are both piston operated.  How's this one: Compare a LW gas piston rifle to a KKF gas piston rifle.  

Nobody likes idea theft but the theives who steal ideas.   You could at least send some royalties his way.  





Ashooter: If your barrel is stock chrome lined those are good results.  I have had two [and still own one] bushmaster chome lined heavy barrels [one fluted] capable of repeatable five shot 1/2-3/4MOA 100yd groups fired with a 4 power NSN ACOG.   Those were the only two heavy chrome lined barrels I have owned.  I think that accuracy is typical of them and around 500-700rounds groups slide toward 1/2MOA or below.

GreenO - It's a Noveske barrel that I had contoured 0.800" behind the gas block.  I really think this is about as good as I'm capable of with a 4x scope at 100m, no matter what barrel/rifle I'm using.  I had another rifle I could only shoot about 1-1.5 moa with an ACOG, but got 1/2 to 3/4 inch groups at 200m with a Nightforce 2.5-10.

If there's any stringing, I think it's my eyeballs more than the weapon.

Ouch!  I felt that one all the way over here...

"Ok Green0, then maybe Kurt and I should both forward royalies to Mauser who designed this basic operating system (incidentally copied from Tokarev) back in 1944 - did you note the date...1944 - so please get your FUCKING facts right before you slander on a public forum me you cheap piece of shit. While the KKF system may look superficially similar to ours it merely copies the Mauser Gerat 06 (you didn't know that?) without addressing such fundamental facts as CARRIER LIFT, BOLT BOUNCE, COMPONENT PEENING and MATERIAL CHOICE amongst others. "


From what I heard you were working with KKF, KKF had an idea and his product was working but had problems that needed to be ironed out.  You went ahead and engineered the kinks out of his system and now it's your system and you have stopped working with KKF.  As usual you are very quick to pull out the swear words because you can't keep your composure in any professional sense.    Call me a liar but I don't believe that you guys stumbled upon the idea of using a Mauser Gerat 06 derived  operating system in an M4 on your own.  I believe you owe that to KKF.  He had his system priced at $200 so with your $600 price tag it appears you are making enough to pay royalties and attempt to salvage some of your firms reputation.  

Rather than clear up missinformation, it seems you guys perpetuate misstruths like this gas tube BS.  

" I don't personally care whether you buy one or not; what I care about is designing the best system I can so that anyone in harms way that chooses to use it can be safe in the knowledge that the weapon will perform when required to do so. "

Right.  I believe it is obvious you care because I wanted to buy one and no-one in your firm could help me with that, not even misterjg who works for grenadier and gave his word that he would sell one to me.  I don't want one anymore because I understand your firm harbors malice for me and don't believe you would ever turn out a quality product for me.  If my assumptions are not accurate and you ever had wanted to sell me one there are issues within your firms that need to be addressed because for quite a while I did all I could short of kissing your ass to be allowed to purchase one and with money in hand their was no product to be had.  


As far as your closing statements:
I don't know what you mean by defending our borders but I believe that defense of our country right now is a combination of the FBI/CIA and law enforcement inside CONUS and the US Army, Marines, Navy, Airforce and a minority of coalition forces OCONUS-- the largest concentrations in Iraq and Afghanistan.  I have been one of the hundreds of thousands of people to give more than a year of their time as part of that latter group.  Time spent in Iraq with the Army.  My brother is currently in Iraq doing his part of more than a year of service.  I believe it is people like my brother and I that keep you safe to swear at people like me.  Of course there are many others risking their lives right now to defend my freedom to speak what I feel is the truth, and I owe all of them a great debt that I don't believe I or anyone else with "but one life to live" can re-pay.

Decide for yourself-- Follow this link to the KKF forum with Kurt's side of this.    There are comparison photos toward the bottom of the page and everything.
www.kurtskustomfirearms.citymax.com/board/board_topic/11341/41898.htm?page=3

Quoted: reliability, reliability, reliability  period..

Total BS!!!

I have well over 20,00 rounds on 2 gas uppers (a BM and LMT MRP) and there have been zero failures!

Anyone who buys into this crap, has more money than brains, and I have both! It's all about proper feeding and maitenance IMHO.

The gas systems that are being touted by LW, and others are soultions to non-existent problems, and I'd love to take it to the range with them for a "Cook Off". BTW, use MD Labs XF-7, and cleaning of the original AR15 System is not an issue either!

Whoops....sorry. Didn't mean to rant!
]
ack

Quoted: Decide for yourself-- Follow this link to the KKF forum with Kurt's side of this.    There are comparison photos toward the bottom of the page and everything. www.kurtskustomfirearms.citymax.com/board/board_topic/11341/41898.htm?page=3

that's interesting

Quoted: Right.  I believe it is obvious you care because I wanted to buy one and no-one in your firm could help me with that, not even misterjg who works for grenadier and gave his word that he would sell one to me.  I don't want one anymore because I understand your firm harbors malice for me and don't believe you would ever turn out a quality product for me.  If my assumptions are not accurate and you ever had wanted to sell me one there are issues within your firms that need to be addressed because for quite a while I did all I could short of kissing your ass to be allowed to purchase one and with money in hand their was no product to be had.

Wait a damn minute....Before you start dragging me into this shit, lets clear up the facts. First off I do not work for Grenadier Precision, I own it. Second: You where asking LW for a one-off custom build, which they are not set up to do because all of thier fixturing is for cookie cutter production for the LW5.56C-P & LW5.56K-P models and conversions. I got in the middle to help you out as a fellow gun guy helping out another. We do all of the custom work for LW, thus I was going to use my inside track to get you taken care of. I told you I would do whatever possible to get your upper/gun built. I asked you to send me your specifications on the build. Which you did, but I had trouble understanding exactly what you wanted to do with the SIR and folding front sight. So I requested that you send me a photoshop or diagram of what you needed. Which you did. After reviewing what you sent me, I then e-mailed you to inform you that it was easily doable, but I needed to find out if you where going to source the parts or were we. As that would affect the total cost. I have not heard from you since.

As far as me giving you my word that I would sell you one.....negative!!! When it comes to LW rifles. uppers or conversions, I do not do direct sales. I don't keep an inventory, every upper we build are one-off unit. We build them, we bill LW for our labor and LW bills the customer accordingly. All I was doing was trying to help you out. Now you try to twist things around and make me look like a fool. I don't think so buddy.

Paul has customers that have been waiting for almost a year now. It's a matter of supply and demand, not who kissed Pauls ass to get an upper. LW and GP have always and will continue to fast-track orders for MIL, LE and GOV customers.

If there is/was a case of intellectual property theft, what's the status on the legal action? Where does the KKF system stand commercially? What about the ARES GSR-35? Should ARES also pay KKF royalties, just because  it looks the same externally?

KKF


ARES


Leitner-Wise

.

GreenO you are such a meany.  

I finally figured it out.

All that crap about you being SF was a bunch of BS so you could fast track everyone wasn't it?  I mean I would be hard pressed to find an SF guy that acted as such.  Most are grey men.  Not you.

Greeno... I thought you were a civilian contractor?!?!

I really don't understand what all the bickering is about.  LW was able to get me 2 uppers in record time (1 month).  I called Paul and explained my situation and he put me up in the front of the line so that I could get these and give them some rigorous testing prior to deploying again.

I have shot literally hundreds of thousands of rounds through the M4/M16 system; shot out 2 barrels recently.  I love the DI system, but like many in my job , I am never satisfied and always looking for something better.  Less time spent cleaning is more time spent training, planning, etc.

I've put nearly 2000 rds through each of my 2 uppers in the past 2 weeks and they are awesome, 100% reliable, and cleaner than I've ever seen an M4. I don't claim that these are the best thing since sliced bread, but they are a definite improvement over the regular DI system.

THANKS LW FOR AN AWESOME PRODUCT, AWESOME CUSTOMER SERVICE and YOUR EXTREME PATRIOTISM.  ALL OF US IN HARMS WAY ON THE FRONT LINES APPRECIATE YOUR COMMITMENT TO EXCELLENCE!

..

"GreenO you are such a meany.

I finally figured it out.

All that crap about you being SF was a bunch of BS so you could fast track everyone wasn't it? I mean I would be hard pressed to find an SF guy that acted as such. Most are grey men. Not you."


WHOA WHOA THERE I AM NOT SF-- I HAVE NEVER SAID I WAS SF-- THIS IS THE DANGER OF WORKING WITH LW PEOPLE-- Apparently they have overactive imaginations and dream up crap and turn it into reality.   I have worked for SF as team house security; that is very different-- that means I have run some missions with them pulling cordons, clearing buildings, escorting detainees, but does not in any way imply I am SF.

"Greeno... I thought you were a civilian contractor?!?!"

No I am going to send applications with a few of my friends soon and a few of them are dragging their feet but I would like to be a contractor given the right pay.

"After reviewing what you sent me, I then e-mailed you to inform you that it was easily doable, but I needed to find out if you where going to source the parts or were we. As that would affect the total cost. I have not heard from you since. "

I I'md and e-mailed you several times regarding that paint file I worked up and you never returned any of them and at that point I gave up.  I figured it was just another in a long series of empty claims and wrote the whole project off.  If you did send an e-mail it didn't arrive.


If those pictures were a simple picture asociation test the one on the top would be matched with the one on the bottom-- the one in the middle is a different design.  It's obvious there is more than a slight similarity between the KKF and LW systems.  

Quoted:  so please get your FUCKING facts right before you slander on a public forum me you cheap piece of shit.

Thank you for making my point.

Have you ever heard of the AR 180?

Quoted: "After reviewing what you sent me, I then e-mailed you to inform you that it was easily doable, but I needed to find out if you where going to source the parts or were we. As that would affect the total cost. I have not heard from you since. " I IM'ed and e-mailed you several times regarding that paint file I worked up and you never returned any of them and at that point I gave up.  I figured it was just another in a long series of empty claims and wrote the whole project off.  If you did send an e-mail it didn't arrive.

I e-mailed you directly to the e-mail you sent me on your last IM:

From :: [ Green0 ] :: [ 12/9/2005 5:08:07 PM EST ]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My e-mail address is [email protected] in case you prefer e-mail.

-Austin

I responded the next day (Sat) at around 11am when I returned from my daughters TKD class.
Why would I go through the trouble of contacting you about your build, saving your last 3 IM's (1: Spec's concerning the SIR 2: Shutterfly link to photoshopped pic 3: Your e-mail address), studied what you wanted, then blow you off. I made the concentrated effort to help you. After these three IM's what other times did you e-mail me or IM me. I believe I included my cell phone in one of the IM's, but I may be mistaken on this as I corresponde with many people on a daily basis.

Empty claims.... The owners of this last batch of custom uppers we built a few weeks ago may disagree with that statement



1) Viper:
Noveske 10.5" barrel
Noveske Krink hider
LaRue Gas Block
LW gas piston
GP ARM-R midlength
TR Gun-Kote flat tan




2) JNR
Noveske 12.5" barrel
AAC QD/FH for M4-2000
Noveske Upper
LW gas piston
GP ARM-R midlength
Recontoured front sight/gas block
TR Gun-Kote OD green on barrel and gas block




3) Giffman
Noveske 10.5" barrel
Recontoured front sight/gas block
LW gas piston
GP ARM-R midlength
TR Gun-Kote flat tan




4) 3rd Group
LW Gov. Profile 10.3" barrel
Recontoured front sight/gas block
LW gas piston
GP ARM-R midlength
TR Gun-Kote flat tan




5) 3rd Group
LW Gov. Profile 16.1" barrel
Recontoured front sight/gas block
LW gas piston
GP ARM-R midlength
TR Gun-Kote flat tan











This is the last time I will post on this thread, as I do not partake in these types of pissing matches. I will not stand idle while someone states half-truths concerning me, my business partners or my/our products.

Greeno if you would like to continue this discussion, I will do so by e-mail, IM or phone

Misterjg;

If I'm not mistaken it looks like the LW system just replaces the gas tube?  I noticed in your pics that most rifles have off the shelf gas blocks, uppers, etc.  LW's site does not list a 6.8mm but yours does, so I'm assuming it works with that caliber.  Also can you retrofit existing AR's and can I buy it and do it myself'?  Lastly, can you use any free float tube (more specifically a DD or Troy)?

Quoted: Misterjg; If I'm not mistaken it looks like the LW system just replaces the gas tube?  I noticed in your pics that most rifles have off the shelf gas blocks, uppers, etc.  LW's site does not list a 6.8mm but yours does, so I'm assuming it works with that caliber.  Also can you retrofit existing AR's and can I buy it and do it myself'?  Lastly, can you use any free float tube (more specifically a DD or Troy)?

That is correct the LW system uses a standard A-frame sight/gas block or most off the shelf units. The gas block is reamed with a special reamer to cut a small step in order to accept the gas nozzle. The upper receiver is also reamed to accept a hardened steel insert where the op rod enters the upper. The 6.8 is a new addition with both the LW and GP. Any AR with a carbine length gas system can be converted to a LW piston op system. If you decide to ever convert the rifle back to a DI, all you need to do is remove the piston componets and reinstall the gas tube and standard carrier. The reaming for the bushing and step for the nozzle to not affect the reinstallation of the DI system. Due to the reaming operations and the required fixturing, you upper will either need to be sent to LW or us. Alignment is also very important during the assembly process.

As far as FF rails are concerned the LT, Troy, DD, etc do not have enough clearance under the 12 o'clock rail for the piston. Another concern would be assembly and access to the piston componets if the need arises.
Rail systems that we know will work with the LW system:
1) GP ARM-R (Carbine and midlength)  which we designed and manufacture specifically for the LW system
2) ARMS SIR.

Other rail systems might work, but have not been physically fitted are:
1)Predator
2)Vltor (sp?)

I believe Paul spoke with Mark LaRue once at a trade show but I do not know if and/or when they would make a rail compatable with the LW system.

I hope this info helps.

Thanks!!!

Some how I knew this thread would turn ugly.

Quoted: Some how I knew this thread would turn ugly.

You think!!!

Quoted: Quoted: Some how I knew this thread would turn ugly. You think!!!

I'm starting to think gas piston threads are doomed from the start. Maybe we should start a HK416 thread just to test the idea. -------------------------------------------- On second thought no thanks,  they always turn out the same way. More bad info than good.

Quoted: I'm starting to think gas piston threads are doomed from the start. Maybe we should start a HK416 thread just to test the idea. -------------------------------------------- On second thought no thanks,  they always turn out the same way. More bad info than good.

So what do you think, should I get a POF with Predator or wait until the Troy handguards come out for it?

Is the POF a short stroke gas piston also?

Isn't it the same basic idea as the LW, the Ares and the KKF?