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Posted: 9/5/2002 8:55:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2002 8:56:14 AM EDT by JAW]
Photos post the attack today on Karzai.



Note the 10 inch barrel, cut carrying handle back up iron sight, and SOCOM stock.



Seems like the short barrelled M4's work fine.


More available at www.yahoo.com

JAW
Link Posted: 9/5/2002 2:47:51 PM EDT
That is not a cut carrying handle. Its a flattop Colt Enhanced Commando fitted with one of these:
www.bushmaster.com/shopping/scopes/yhm-643k.asp

Although perhaps it could be a older CAR or even a M4A1 lower temporarily wearing a 11.5in upper. Perhaps a Bushmaster?
Link Posted: 9/5/2002 2:52:40 PM EDT
There was a photo in a gun rag in a article about Blackwater's School last year of a Navy SEAL using an M4 that very clearly had a chopped carry handle with only the rear sight remaining.
Link Posted: 9/5/2002 2:52:54 PM EDT
I think it probably is a cut carry handle- Here is a pic of another operator at the same scene:


I believe it is a M4A1 lower with 10.5" upper.
Link Posted: 9/5/2002 3:19:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2002 4:01:12 PM EDT by JAW]
I posted the first pic above and verified what it is of with several credible sources.

The weapon features an upper built for Crane NSW by a vendor. The upper has its own NSN number.

The receiver is M4 spec, with M4 feed ramps and a flat top, but it is not a Colt. The barrel is from Diemaco (Canadian) and is hammer forged, chrome-lined and reportedly 10 inches. The rear back up iron sight is a standard detachable carrying handle, cut and nicely finished by the vendor.

The rail system is a RIS from KAC without the rail covers and the Aimpoint mount is a KAC straight mount.

The stock is the SOCOM M4 stock.

JAW
Link Posted: 9/5/2002 4:02:31 PM EDT
Notice the SIG, single point sling, and yes, cut carrying handle in the second pic above.

No optic though.

The SIG should be a clue.
Link Posted: 9/5/2002 4:09:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2002 4:12:56 PM EDT by AR15fan]

Originally Posted By JAW:
The SIG should be a clue.



US Navy.

BTW; is the guy in the second pic wounded? It looks like he has a bandaged wound on his left chest and perhaps tied his shirt around his head as an improvised bandage? Or has he just been in country to long and goes on missions half dressed?

PPS...
Starting to notice the "operators" are getting pretty chubby. They are eating to well and not getting enough PT. I will give them the benifit of the doubt and assume the mission tempo is to fast for regular PT.
Link Posted: 9/5/2002 4:26:07 PM EDT
It's a cut carrying handle done by Colt. When I get settled from my move I'll post some close up photos of the New Colt M4A4 I have. It's basically a Colt M4 carbine with some modified Knight's parts, HBAR 1/7 barrel and a custom cut carry handle.

I'll post ASAP( about a week)
Link Posted: 9/5/2002 4:32:37 PM EDT
Colt-653,

I believe you, no doubt with respect to your M4A4.

However, my source(s) seem to think the photo above is of a different animal. Given the Diemaco barrel, I tend to agree with them, but see no reason why cut carrying handles from Colt don't exist as part of other configurations, as the idea has been around for a while (I've had one for a couple years that I did myself).

What is the barrel length on your M4A4?

What are the modified KAC parts?

Sounds like an interesting beast.

JAW
Link Posted: 9/5/2002 4:42:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By JAW:
The SIG should be a clue.



US Navy.

BTW; is the guy in the second pic wounded? It looks like he has a bandaged wound on his left chest and perhaps tied his shirt around his head as an improvised bandage? Or has he just been in country to long and goes on missions half dressed?



Yeah, I think you may be right. He got dinged. Probably a fragmentation wound to the chest. There is also blood on his left wrist.



PPS...
Starting to notice the "operators" are getting pretty chubby. They are eating to well and not getting enough PT. I will give them the benifit of the doubt and assume the mission tempo is to fast for regular PT.



They cannot do PT like they would in garrison, there simply would not be the time or the secure grounds available to work out like they normally would. That's why they work out so hard in garrison, so they have muscle and stamina to lose when they get deployed.

Combat swimmers, BTW, have a tendancy to get barrel chested the more they swim/SCUBA/etc. It is something that has been noted in a few different sources regarding both SEALs and Army Special Forces SCUBA team members.

You may also wish to note that the likely SEAL (DEVGROUP?) operator is on the short side. To maintain the level of pure strength needed in that sort of outfit, he'd tend to be built like a fireplug just to have enough muscle mass. Some photos of guys in the original SEAL Team Six and Red Cell units showed some HUGE guys. Marcinko claimed that he required all his guys to be able to bench something like 400 pounds in those early days. You'd be pretty huge to manage that.

But the carbohydrate diet they would probably adopt in Afghanistan would tend to put weight on you if you weren't running it off daily.
Link Posted: 9/5/2002 4:49:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2002 4:51:51 PM EDT by Colt-653]
From my sources the CQB SOPMOD 10.5" and 11.5" barrels are from Diemaco, just like you state. Colt has also made some demo models bassed on the 733 enchanced carbine.

I should clear something up, the Colt M4A4 I have is a limited issued demo item and was issued as a PIP kit for updating Milspec lowers. It's a Colt M4 marked flat-top upper with feed cuts, a 16" 1/7 HBAR ,Knight's RAS, ARMS Modified full length #36-MOD rail, and a Colt/C-More made cut carryhandle rear sight. The kit also included the New Colt M4 4- position stock.

I know the kit is also available with the standard Colt 14.5" light weight M4 and HBAR barrels. Not sure when Colt will release it for LE/Civilian sales. Might want to check with www.sawlesales.com for availability.

The uppers were made as demos for the SOPMOD II program and a few were released to private parties/companies.

I'll try and post some pictures as soon as possible.

As far as I know only NSW has made purchases of the CQB model.
Link Posted: 9/5/2002 5:12:39 PM EDT
A couple questions.

Why is cutting down the carry handle better than the removible sight tower for a regular flattop like Bushmaster sells?

And why the ten or eleven inch barrels? Are they really .223? Isn't this the same group of people who complained that 5.56 from carbines performed badly? Or were the stories from Mogidishu not true?

Link Posted: 9/5/2002 5:15:21 PM EDT
What I find more perplexing than the lack of shirt is the lack of soft body armor.


As far as I know only NSW has made purchases of the CQB model.


That is my understanding as well.

Thanks for the info.
Link Posted: 9/5/2002 5:26:52 PM EDT
The cut carrying handle isn't a cut A2 receiver, but a cut M4 detachable carrying handle mounted on a regular railed receiver.

Why better? Dunno for sure but a couple of insights:

1) Standard thumbscrew removal/installation vs. allen head screw or similar.

2) Availability - this practice started before the advent of any of the current folding BUIS. A cut carrying handle was the first BUIS for the M4.

3) Ruggedness - a portion of the front of the carrying handle is retained which protects the more fragile, adjustable part. The Bushie variant doesn't have this. The Mark Brown CQB mount does, but adds a raised rail and is semi-permanent (see #1 above). The DPMS sight looks like a decent choice, but WHY NOT a cut carrying handle? I am sure there are lots in inventory out there.

I have heard about this practice for a long time but seen only one pic on a personal gun of an operator (the same Blackwater pic referenced above). Last year I saw a picture of an NSW gun with a roughly hack-sawed carrying handle out of the Balkans.

The above pics are the first I have seen of something that appears to be either a standard practice or "issue" item.

HTH,

JAW
Link Posted: 9/5/2002 5:51:37 PM EDT
The wounded Army SF operator's side arm is a HK USP .45 cal.
Link Posted: 9/5/2002 6:14:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1100RT-P:
The wounded Army SF operator's side arm is a HK USP .45 cal.



I beg to differ.

I think it is a SIG. Further, first hand intel indicates the upper receiver on his weapon isn't in service with the Army.

JAW
Link Posted: 9/5/2002 6:17:25 PM EDT
I think the chest wound/dressing is just the light colored single point sling.
Link Posted: 9/5/2002 6:18:03 PM EDT
looks like a colt commando with 10.5"barrel KAC rail system w/verical foregrip.Also 40mm cqb style scope&custom made butstock.2nd operator same pic looks like M4 w/KAC rail & cqb scope.3RD operator M4 KAC rail vertical fore grip Sig 226 &fragmentation grenade.Probably seal team members all the weapons are samebasic configuration;short barrel,large diameter shortbodied scope tube,same rail system&two out of three have standard colapsable stock.
Link Posted: 9/5/2002 6:20:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1100RT-P:
The wounded Army SF operator's side arm is a HK USP .45 cal.

First, you don't know if he is Army SF or not. Second, I went and got my USP40 and Sig P220 out after reading your post and compared them. That is a Sig that the gentleman is carrying. That doesn't necessarily identify which branch he is in. The SEALS use Sigs, but more and more other branches are issuing the P228 as the M11. That could be a P226, a P228 (M11), or a P220, although I am not sure if any branch uses the .45 cal 220. It is not an HK.
Link Posted: 9/5/2002 6:25:08 PM EDT
The stocks are the SOCOM stock developed by Crane NSWC. This is confirmed.

The optics are Aimpoint Comp M-XD's, possibly M2's (reportedly *very* few M2's are in service, even with these types). The mount for the Aimpoint is a KAC straight mount. This is confirmed.

Thanks for IDing the fragmentation grenade, my guess too, but I was wondering.

JAW
Link Posted: 9/5/2002 6:50:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1100RT-P:
A certain Army SF group can carry any side arm they want. For low profile missions, that certain SF group prefers the .45 cal. HK USP.


That's all fine and dandy, but the pistol in the holster is a Sig.
Link Posted: 9/5/2002 6:53:50 PM EDT
Navy vs. Army? Who cares? He's wearing Dockers!
Link Posted: 9/5/2002 7:02:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DirtyDon:
Navy vs. Army? Who cares? He's wearing Dockers!

HEHE. Nice pants!
Link Posted: 9/5/2002 7:12:55 PM EDT
I love these various conflicting observations.
Jack
Link Posted: 9/5/2002 7:17:32 PM EDT
Sine there are a lot of in-the-know types posting here let me ask a question or tow- Are these uppers made by KAC? I know KAC has used Diemaco barrels on some uppers before..and I think Havoc mentioned working on a short AR project at Knight's..

Also- Do you know anything about a new metal vertical grip being issued? Someone on one of these boards mentioned a conversation with some SEALs.. the discussed the 10.5" upper and a new metal fwd. grip.

Finally.. Has a decision been made yet re: the PMOD upper for the SOPMOD Block II?

Thanks in advance..
Link Posted: 9/5/2002 7:21:44 PM EDT
The PMOD hasn't been finshed for posting yet.
jack
Link Posted: 9/5/2002 7:37:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2002 7:38:27 PM EDT by kc3]
Jeez, another style AR/M16 to build??!! Will it ever stop??!! ;)

And btw, that's a SIG 226, too long to be a M11. Definitely not an HK.
Link Posted: 9/5/2002 9:07:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/5/2002 9:21:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2002 9:22:44 PM EDT by S-1]

Originally Posted By 1100RT-P:
A certain Army SF group can carry any side arm they want. For low profile missions, that certain SF group prefers the .45 cal. HK USP.




I'm sorry, but if you're talking about Delta(CAG), you are wrong. The pistol of choice in Delta is customized 1911's.

The guys in the photo are indeed from NSW's Tier One unit.

Link Posted: 9/6/2002 12:06:11 AM EDT
One of our newer members, M24Expert, posted this on the original thread in the General Discussion board.


Those carbines in the photos are made by Military Manufacturing Corp. also known as M2 Corp. They are currently in SOCOM inventory and used by USASOC units for dignitary protection. M2 makes a few models, one is being tested for aircrew use in the 160th to replace the PDW now used. M2 has a site at http://www.m2corp.com/ for the open site. They are also developing a 5.56x45mm round that is suppossed to give simlar performance out of the short barel as is given by a full size M16A4 and tame the flash. The weapon was designed and totally made by M2 in Nevada. KAC designed RIS/RAS is also used with the little beasts.

Jim



So, does Military Manufacturing Corp. of Nevada ring any bells with anyone else here?
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 12:30:49 AM EDT
wrong.... wrong ......wrong again........

Have the best day ever!
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 8:22:35 AM EDT
Hmmmm, I notice all the SOCOM Enhanced M4 stocks are being run collapsed or semi-collapsed, even though no body armor is apparent. Fighting from an iso stance I guess.

I also notice that they all seem to have rubberbands around them as well. Anybody care to guess what purpose that serves?
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 9:06:27 AM EDT
My guess on the rubber band is one of two things.

1) a tactile queue that the operator has the right cheek weld.
2) keep something attached to the stock like a field dressing on the off side.

Anyone else care to hazard a guess?
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 12:38:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JAW:
My guess on the rubber band is one of two things.

1) a tactile queue that the operator has the right cheek weld.
2) keep something attached to the stock like a field dressing on the off side.

Anyone else care to hazard a guess?



Holding on a individual prefrence homemade cheek pad? Even though commercial ones exist they may not be "right"-and these guys tend to be picky.
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 1:18:11 PM EDT
I'd hazard a guess that the rubber bands (if thats what they are, they could be tye wraps) are to keep the latching lever from rattling or keeping some tension on the lever. Just a WAG.
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 1:29:53 PM EDT
The stock is like the one in the excellent pic Ahab posted. It has an expanded cheek area. I don't think the band is holding on a cheek pad. I really have no idea what it is for.

Link Posted: 9/6/2002 1:39:06 PM EDT
The rubber bands are for field dressings.

Since it doesn't violate OpSec, I can tell you that the photos are of NSW AKA SEALs. The handgun in the Kydex holster is one of the newer Sig P226's with Hogue rubber grips and blackened Stainless slide. The grenade looks like one of the light weight plastic grenades made by Glock in Austria, and as far as I know only NSW has purchased them.

FYI CAG uses the 1911 reworked by various smiths( Inhouse and by some of the better known smiths) I've worked with a few that use the Glock 17/19, 21 and the Sig 220 series as well, so trying to identify a operator by his sidearm is not a good means of identification. It's up to the operator to determine what they are going to carry, often it's based on the mission.

I doubt the uppers in the photo are made by M2 Corp. NSW likes to build their toys up at Crane using off the shelf parts. Only way to know for sure is for some one to contact M2 or Crane and get the low down.



Link Posted: 9/6/2002 2:11:09 PM EDT
The holster is defiantly not Kydex, as it has a reinforced mouth. It's probably a Kramer Vertical Scabbard or less likely a Heinie/Alessi DOJ.
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 2:48:44 PM EDT
The gentleman who is wounded is most likely NSW. But that doesn't mean they all are.

Because SOCOM exists now, nothing is truly exclusive to any particular SF unit. Each has its own habits though. If Delta has a priority mission, and they like the NSW's short ARs for it, and they dont have any of their own, they can ask for and get them. That sort of cooperation was what the SOCOM headquarters orginaization was created for.

None of the people in these photos may be the men who actually shot the attackers. And there is one guy you can glimps in one view wearing bluejeans that is possibly CIA.

Link Posted: 9/6/2002 3:03:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1100RT-P:
The wounded Army SF operator's side arm is a HK USP .45 cal.



I stand corrected it's a Sig.
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 3:58:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JAW:

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
The gentleman who is wounded is most likely NSW. But that doesn't mean they all are.



ArmdLbrl,

That is kind of a "neener neener" response.

Word from those that have actually BTDT with respect to dignitary protection in that region is that at current, US Military "Tier One Assets" are filling the role in question. These assets are on rotation (i.e., one on, one off).

Based on a bunch of observations regarding the weapons in the photos, etc., and verified facts regarding said weapons, it is fairly safe to say that the guys pictured are not CAG, and are not CIA. To my knowledge the CIA typically does not have a dignitary protection function. That is the province of DSS said "Tier One Assets." BTW, DSS is slotted to take over the job, via a private contractor. Maybe yesterday's events will delay that.

JAW



Its only a "neener neener" response in your deluded mind because you are looking to pick a fight over some stupid interservice rivalry.

Get a Grip.

FACT is that ARMY SF be it Delta or some other detachment was given the job of bodyguarding Karzai.

But in Kandahar, NSW and CIA are looking for badguys in that province AND advising the Afghan security forces there.

As a result members of ALL THREE were present at the time of the shooting. And that is a normal state of affairs in Afghanistan, for the three to be around in mixed groups working togeather.

Save the intersevice BS for the Army/Navy football game...
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 4:06:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2002 4:12:46 PM EDT by ArmdLbrl]
Originally Posted by Tatjana:www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=139320

Curious about this incident I spoke with someone "in the know" a little bit ago. He knew one of the respondees by name. I generally consider the source hyper reliable but since I can't cite- salt to taste.

This was reported to me, along with info from other sources:

Present when the attempt occurred:

At least 3 NSW members and at least 6-8 Delta members. Best guess was that it was an NSW member that was wounded (not seriously). Also present were 2 or 3 Special Activities Division (Under CIA's Directorate of Operations and the same group that Johnny "Mike" Spann was connected with)- apparently present by chance involving another operation- NSW might have been there to work with the SAD people and both groups were probably along for "the ride."

You can usually tell the SAD types because they don't wear military garb or if they do it's sanitized.

The chronology:


1. Karzai stops to greet some local Afghans and as he does shots ring out from the first attacker, who had been dressed in Afghan security guard garb. At least four shots are fired into the car, two through a closed window (I can only assume the small side window behind the rear passanger window). One shot misses Karzai's head by inches but strikes Gul Agha Sherzai inflicting a minor head wound.


2. Karzai's car flees with great haste.



3. U.S. Special Forces, including both the NSW group and Delta respond, dismount their tailing vehicle and return fire at three aggressors. All three are KIA. One U.S. Operative (NSW) is wounded and takes cover while the area is secured to eventually stem his bleeding with his shirt.


4. SAD member (notice the jeans) comforts the wounded NSW, stands him up and, holding his head utters something to the effect of "Hey, you still with us?" He utters, "I'm good, I'm good..." or words to that effect.


4a. After eliminating the immediate threat the area is scanned and the wounded comrade is attended to.


5. The job done they begin to exfiltrate the area. They seem to have much more a sense of purpose than their Afghan counterparts... no?


6. Wounded NSW soldier discusses next steps with OPCOM and refuses immediate medical evac.


7. Result, three dead with at least one suffering a nice controlled pair to the neck and right side of the head.


8. U.S. SPECOPs fade into the fog. Afghans left to clean up.


Link Posted: 9/6/2002 4:07:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2002 4:09:21 PM EDT by JAW]
ArmdLbrl,

You are right, it is not worth arguing about. I apologize for the abrasive post. Different sources have different info. Who knows?

JAW
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 4:15:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JAW:
ArmdLbrl,

You are right, it is not worth arguing about. I apologize for the abrasive post. Different sources have different info. Who knows?

JAW



Its alright. Nothing broken..
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 7:39:16 PM EDT
Very interesting thread here - I liked reading it a lot - now for the real question - who the hell does the bare chested fella in picture #3 think he's talking to? Just kidding but it kinda looks like he's talking to the SUV
Link Posted: 9/6/2002 8:34:58 PM EDT
I just wanted to chime in and say that a blown up photo of the SF / Delta soldier appeared on the cover of the NY Post yesterday (Friday, 9/6), and the rear sight is very clearly a cut M4 detachable carry handle mounted on a regular railed receiver.
Link Posted: 9/9/2002 6:40:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2002 6:43:16 AM EDT by Shooter521]
Colt-653:

The grenade sure doesn't LOOK like the one from Glock... compare the shell of the Glock grenade in this pic (smooth) to the one on the operator's belt (bumpy/pineapple-type).


Link Posted: 9/9/2002 3:04:08 PM EDT


No it doesn't look like the Glock grenade above, but not because its bumpy. I cant see any bumps on the SEAL's grenade at normal resolution. But the Glock grenade looks to be more cylindrical in shape
Link Posted: 9/9/2002 3:15:42 PM EDT
Well this blows all bets.. these guyswww.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=74&t=142680&page=2#bottom beleve that these are all "civilian contractors".

If true then you cant tell anything about them from their weapons.
Link Posted: 9/9/2002 8:46:47 PM EDT
The grenade in the photo is made by Glock it's either a model 85 or 86. Here's a link for info on the grenade:

http://pacificcoast.net/~dlynn/currentfrag/currentfrag.htm

Like I said earlier, as far as I know only NSW is purchasing them( That doesn't mean others haven't or that they don't have access to them)

Few people here realize that current and former memembers of the SF community are often employed via private contractors for specific jobs. It's like the "paid jobs" police officers do on their days off.

It's been done this way since the Vietnam conflict. Central America and the Middle East are just 2 of many examples of the use of "private" contractors.


Needless to say we should all be proud of those out there protecting us from those that would do us harm, and not arguing about who or what branch of the military they represent.



Link Posted: 9/10/2002 4:52:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AJohnston:
The holster is defiantly not Kydex, as it has a reinforced mouth. It's probably a Kramer Vertical Scabbard .



Correct...It is a Horsehide Kramer "Verticle Belt Scabbard". I own several and the Navy bought a bunch around 1995.
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