Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 3
Posted: 3/23/2006 3:08:43 PM EDT
I am new to AR's so please bear with me.

I bought a RRA upper and lower at different times and put them together so I have no instructions for the rifle.

Question is: When I insert a loaded mag with the bolt closed it does not lock in place. When I insert a mag with the bolt open it locks up fine. Is it this normal or is something wrong?

The mags are new D&H, black Teflon.

The only internal changes are that I added a RRA match trigger the other day.

I have only fired the rifle once; 40 rounds and everything worked OK but I think I only inserted mags with the bolt open then.

Any info appreciated.
Thanks

Link Posted: 3/23/2006 3:11:27 PM EDT
When you put a loaded mag in w/ bolt closed...give the bottom a slap. It should click in.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 3:15:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/23/2006 3:15:48 PM EDT by DM1975]
ditto, smack the bottom and you will hear it click in place, this is normal.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 3:18:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/23/2006 3:47:23 PM EDT by Corporal_Chaos]
It just requires more force to load a mag on a closed bolt. I recommend downloading by two rounds for easier tac reloads.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 3:31:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Corporal_Chaos:
It just requires more force to load a mag on a closed bolt. I recommend downloading to by two rounds for easier tac reloads.


why? when you reload the bolt is open anyway and you dont have to slap...i would i agree if your bolt catch was busted but if not your just losing rounds
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 3:32:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/23/2006 3:33:34 PM EDT by Dace]

Originally Posted By RRA0211:

Originally Posted By Corporal_Chaos:
It just requires more force to load a mag on a closed bolt. I recommend downloading to by two rounds for easier tac reloads.


why? when you reload the bolt is open anyway and you dont have to slap...i would i agree if your bolt catch was busted but if not your just losing rounds



Look up the definition of "tactical reload."
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 3:33:41 PM EDT
As stated earlier, this is normal. What is happening is the bottom of the closed bolt is hitting the top round in the magazine, so a little force is needed to compress the spring (In your Magazine) enough for the Mag catch to Catch.

You can always manually latch the bolt open then insert the loaded Mag. Welcome to the site.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 3:36:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dace:

Originally Posted By RRA0211:

Originally Posted By Corporal_Chaos:
It just requires more force to load a mag on a closed bolt. I recommend downloading to by two rounds for easier tac reloads.


why? when you reload the bolt is open anyway and you dont have to slap...i would i agree if your bolt catch was busted but if not your just losing rounds



Look up the definition of "tactical reload."



+1
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 3:38:21 PM EDT
I love how things get beat to death on this site (I do it too I know)
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 3:38:54 PM EDT
After slapping the mag home, always be sure to give it a tug to make sure it's properly SEATED.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 3:42:10 PM EDT
slam it home
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 3:52:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/23/2006 3:53:21 PM EDT by TylerM_8]

Originally Posted By RRA0211:

Originally Posted By Corporal_Chaos:
It just requires more force to load a mag on a closed bolt. I recommend downloading to by two rounds for easier tac reloads.


why? when you reload the bolt is open anyway and you dont have to slap...i would i agree if your bolt catch was busted but if not your just losing rounds



By "tactical reloads" he means reloading with a partially empty magazine. For example, you have shot several shots at an enemy and dropped him. You now have let's say 6 rounds left in your magazine and are getting ready to storm and clear a room. You don't want to run in and shoot those 6 and end up still having enemies alive. So before you enter the room you do a magazine change "tactical reload". You now have 31 rounds in your gun ( 1 in the chamber and 30 in the magazine).

I agree with you though on using 30 rather than 28 rounds. I just make sure my magazine spring is well broken in. But to each his I own.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 3:57:25 PM EDT
I always run a full mag, even in Iraq I did this as I never had an issue locking a magazine in place. I always slam the shit out of my mags into the rifle, and pull on them to check, this is a subconcienc action for me now days.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 4:27:12 PM EDT
How do you manually latch the bolt open?
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 4:33:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Aud_VDW:
How do you manually latch the bolt open?



Press down on the bottom tab of the bolt release(Buttom looking thing on the left side)
and yank the charging handle back.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 4:50:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DM1975:
I always run a full mag, even in Iraq I did this as I never had an issue locking a magazine in place. I always slam the shit out of my mags into the rifle, and pull on them to check, this is a subconcienc action for me now days.



Ever have problems with rounds shooting out of the mag and into the receiver when slamming a fresh mag home on an open bolt?

It's happened to me a few times at 3-gun matches and while at the range. I can only imagine it'd be worse with someone shooting back at me. Now I push/pull, not slap.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 5:03:11 PM EDT
Slapping the magazine is important. It is the first action in Immediate Action.

Remember the acronym SPORTS for M-16 Immediate Action

S Slap the bottom of the mag
P Pull the Charging Handle to the rear.
O Observe the ejected case or bad round
R Release the charging handle
T Tap the forward assist
S Squeeze the trigger

Proper seating of the magazine requires a good slap whether it is needed or not, its just a good habit to get into.

My habit is tapping the rear of the magazine against my helmet, or my boot heal. (Sucks when you forget your not wearing a helmet, but funny as hell to watch the other guy do it) shove the mag in the well, give it a good upward slap, (bolt open or not I still do it) and I always hit my forward assist.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 5:16:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Corporal_Chaos:

Originally Posted By DM1975:
I always run a full mag, even in Iraq I did this as I never had an issue locking a magazine in place. I always slam the shit out of my mags into the rifle, and pull on them to check, this is a subconcienc action for me now days.



Ever have problems with rounds shooting out of the mag and into the receiver when slamming a fresh mag home on an open bolt?

It's happened to me a few times at 3-gun matches and while at the range. I can only imagine it'd be worse with someone shooting back at me. Now I push/pull, not slap.



Yes I have, not in combat thank god. I try not to run a mag dry if at all possible but of course, shit happens. I do try to make an effort to be easier on the mags on an open bolt but sometimes I slip and still smack the crap out of them or dont even realize the bolt is open till it is too late.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 5:19:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Orion67:
Slapping the magazine is important. It is the first action in Immediate Action.

Remember the acronym SPORTS for M-16 Immediate Action

Proper seating of the magazine requires a good slap whether it is needed or not, its just a good habit to get into.

My habit is tapping the rear of the magazine against my helmet, or my boot heal. (Sucks when you forget your not wearing a helmet, but funny as hell to watch the other guy do it) shove the mag in the well, give it a good upward slap, (bolt open or not I still do it) and I always hit my forward assist.



SPORTS has been replaced in many circles by Push Pull Rack and Roll.

Push the mag in
Pull to make sure it won't fall out
Rack the charging handle. Use your weak hand.
Roll the gun to allow debris to fall out the port.

I use it, and it works.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 5:23:56 PM EDT
how come in war movies the GIs always tapped the business end of the magazine on their helmet? Do they do that to make sure the mag is loaded?
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 5:45:39 PM EDT
They tap it to make sure that the back of all the rounds is against the back of the magazine. If they aren't against the back then crap can happen. And with Murphy's law, it WILL happen.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 6:01:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By James_Brown:
how come in war movies the GIs always tapped the business end of the magazine on their helmet? Do they do that to make sure the mag is loaded?




Just in case the top round has slided a bit forward, a quick tap of the magazine on a helmet or something else sets all the rounds to the back. THis is one instant that the movies are correct.

As far as downloading magazines goes, it's up to you. the insertion should be firm and followed by a slap to the bottom to enshure it is seated, and a tug to double check. many people say that they cannot insert a full mag on a closed bolt, and many others say that it makes no difference. Do what works best for you.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 6:04:23 PM EDT
Thanks to all of you for replying so quickly. I guess what it was, was: I had been using 20 round mags when I fired the rifle. Then I bought the 30 round mags.

I just was not hitting the 30's hard enough on the bottom to secure them.
The 20's are easy, 30's take a harder hit.

I appreciate the info, thanks again.......
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 6:44:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dace:

Originally Posted By RRA0211:

Originally Posted By Corporal_Chaos:
It just requires more force to load a mag on a closed bolt. I recommend downloading to by two rounds for easier tac reloads.


why? when you reload the bolt is open anyway and you dont have to slap...i would i agree if your bolt catch was busted but if not your just losing rounds



Look up the definition of "tactical reload."



Tactical reloading means putting a full mag in, not 28 rounds. I don't know why that retarded urban legend still lives... "downloading by two rounds." If God intended you to have 28 rounds in the magazine, He would have made them 28 round magazines, not 30. I HAVE NEVER had a problem with 30 round mags, not through years of shooting, including playing in the sand.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 7:04:58 PM EDT
I think he was referring to loading a mag on a closed bolt is a tactical reload, which it is, reguardless if it is 30 or 28 rnds. I personaly load to 30.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 7:38:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By James_Brown:
how come in war movies the GIs always tapped the business end of the magazine on their helmet? Do they do that to make sure the mag is loaded?



Yes, but it takes LOTS of practice. You should spend some time every day tapping your head with full, 1/2 full and empty mags. You'll soon be able to tell the difference.

All the guys here with high post counts can do it. The ones that have done it enough to tell you exactly how full the mag is have been doing it for years. Stop doing it if you start to say "M4 feed ramps" in every post, you've been hitting yourself in the head for too long.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 8:26:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:

Originally Posted By Dace:

Originally Posted By RRA0211:

Originally Posted By Corporal_Chaos:
It just requires more force to load a mag on a closed bolt. I recommend downloading to by two rounds for easier tac reloads.


why? when you reload the bolt is open anyway and you dont have to slap...i would i agree if your bolt catch was busted but if not your just losing rounds



Look up the definition of "tactical reload."



Tactical reloading means putting a full mag in, not 28 rounds. I don't know why that retarded urban legend still lives... "downloading by two rounds." If God intended you to have 28 rounds in the magazine, He would have made them 28 round magazines, not 30. I HAVE NEVER had a problem with 30 round mags, not through years of shooting, including playing in the sand.



I suspect there is a reason that most trainers recommend loading to 28. Just a suspicion mind you.

PS, God did not design the M16 magazine. Perhaps if he did, it would work better
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 8:56:58 PM EDT
28 rounds is a good idea because a true tactical reload is conducted while the bolt is closed on a hot round. Sometimes the bolt will ride over the first round of a full mag.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 9:06:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:

Originally Posted By Dace:

Originally Posted By RRA0211:

Originally Posted By Corporal_Chaos:
It just requires more force to load a mag on a closed bolt. I recommend downloading to by two rounds for easier tac reloads.


why? when you reload the bolt is open anyway and you dont have to slap...i would i agree if your bolt catch was busted but if not your just losing rounds



Look up the definition of "tactical reload."



Tactical reloading means putting a full mag in, not 28 rounds. I don't know why that retarded urban legend still lives... "downloading by two rounds." If God intended you to have 28 rounds in the magazine, He would have made them 28 round magazines, not 30. I HAVE NEVER had a problem with 30 round mags, not through years of shooting, including playing in the sand.



I suspect there is a reason that most trainers recommend loading to 28. Just a suspicion mind you.

PS, God did not design the M16 magazine. Perhaps if he did, it would work better



No, but the United States Marine Corps helped design it.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 9:19:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stove_Pipe:

Originally Posted By James_Brown:
how come in war movies the GIs always tapped the business end of the magazine on their helmet? Do they do that to make sure the mag is loaded?




Just in case the top round has slided a bit forward, a quick tap of the magazine on a helmet or something else sets all the rounds to the back. THis is one instant that the movies are correct.




Like a Garand stock with lots of little dimples on the right side of the stock, from seating the rounds. Never saw that in a movie though.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 9:25:08 PM EDT
The reason it does not seat as easily with the bolt closed is that with the bolt closed, the mag follower and subsequent rounds has to push up against it. With a fully loaded magazine, you have to overcome more spring tension. One way to over come this is to either slam the mag home (one smooth stroke is best) or you can also down load your mags a few rounds so that the spring tension is less.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 9:39:59 PM EDT
27 rounds in all of my magazines. Easier to load, less spring tension. Works FOR ME, if it doesn't for you that's fine. With the little experience that I have in firearms, all that seems to matter is what works FOR YOU. Why all of the throat cutting over nothing?
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 9:55:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/23/2006 9:56:38 PM EDT by Spade]

Originally Posted By James_Brown:
how come in war movies the GIs always tapped the business end of the magazine on their helmet? Do they do that to make sure the mag is loaded?



Like others have said, it makes sure the top round (typically) hasn't gotten out of position.

Buddy of mine who was in ROTC (and just got back from a stint in Korea) got sent with his unit to be cannon fodder in some exercise at Bragg (might have been the big SF one or something) and they were allowed to wear their boonie caps. My buddy went to reload at some point, hauled out a mag, and knocked himself flat.


I don't download my mags. I might need those. I just slam the bastard home.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 7:11:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:

Originally Posted By Dace:

Originally Posted By RRA0211:

Originally Posted By Corporal_Chaos:
It just requires more force to load a mag on a closed bolt. I recommend downloading to by two rounds for easier tac reloads.


why? when you reload the bolt is open anyway and you dont have to slap...i would i agree if your bolt catch was busted but if not your just losing rounds



Look up the definition of "tactical reload."



Tactical reloading means putting a full mag in, not 28 rounds. I don't know why that retarded urban legend still lives... "downloading by two rounds." If God intended you to have 28 rounds in the magazine, He would have made them 28 round magazines, not 30. I HAVE NEVER had a problem with 30 round mags, not through years of shooting, including playing in the sand.



Try taking a mag loaded with 30 rounds and equipped with a Magpul follower and ranger plate, and inserting it on a closed bolt. Now try it under stress.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 7:15:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By James_Brown:
how come in war movies the GIs always tapped the business end of the magazine on their helmet? Do they do that to make sure the mag is loaded?


make sure you're actually wearing a helmet when you do this
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 7:27:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:

Originally Posted By Dace:

Originally Posted By RRA0211:

Originally Posted By Corporal_Chaos:
It just requires more force to load a mag on a closed bolt. I recommend downloading to by two rounds for easier tac reloads.


why? when you reload the bolt is open anyway and you dont have to slap...i would i agree if your bolt catch was busted but if not your just losing rounds



Look up the definition of "tactical reload."



Tactical reloading means putting a full mag in, not 28 rounds. I don't know why that retarded urban legend still lives... "downloading by two rounds." If God intended you to have 28 rounds in the magazine, He would have made them 28 round magazines, not 30. I HAVE NEVER had a problem with 30 round mags, not through years of shooting, including playing in the sand.



Actually, it means changing mags before you have run the first one dry (i.e. so there will be a round in the chamber and the bolt is closed).
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 8:10:29 AM EDT
A few observations on reloading since it becomes quite important on todays non-linear battlefield.
Most of these are listed above.

28 rounds has long been the standard load for a "30 round" magazine and 18 for a 20. It may not be universal but I have to say I do not know a single combat vetran who does not load 28 (this does not mean combat vertrans do not exist who load 30, just means I don't know them). I also do not know any instructors who advocate 30 rounds (same caveat).

The primary reason (mentioned above) is that it is difficult to top off your loaded rifle with a fresh mag wether using the "Tactical Reload" or the "Combat Speed Reload". Why do you use this - because it is much better to reload when you *want to* than when you *have to*! I don't know of any high speed operators who will perform an emergency reload under fire unless they have emptied their last back up weapon. Transition is almost always the fix at close quarters for an empty weapon.

Another reason for loading 28 is that when the M16/M4 has been shot a lot then it gets a little "gummy" even if properly lubed (one of the beneifits of blowing all that carbon back into the action ). I have seen many m16s which will not fully chamber a round from a full 30 round mag when the bolt is dropped using the bolt catch. It does not normally happen with a clean and lubed weapon (except on bad mags) but it does when they are hot and dirty.

It is not a good policy to beat on the bottom of an M16 mag for the reasons stated in previous post. If the bolt is back and a round jumps out then there is a high probability of causing a double feed... a malfunciton you will not clear in your lifetime (which wont be all that long).

Not exactly on topic but "SPORTS" has very little utility except in the traditional linear battlefied scenario (you have a good fixed position and people to cover you while you tinker with your weapon). In Close Quarters Battle one gets shot about at the "O" in SPORTS.

Onward,
Jim H.

Link Posted: 3/24/2006 8:49:14 AM EDT
My Joes and I are all 30-loaders a proud of it

FWIW I have done a malf clearing in CQB and it does suck, but with proper training and sector coverage by your team you can survive.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:06:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Riposte:
Not exactly on topic but "SPORTS" has very little utility except in the traditional linear battlefied scenario (you have a good fixed position and people to cover you while you tinker with your weapon). In Close Quarters Battle one gets shot about at the "O" in SPORTS.

Onward,
Jim H.




Actualy SPORTS exists to help you clear a malfunction as fast as possible without tinkering with your rifle.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:38:05 AM EDT
If you can't conduct a SPORTS Immediate Action drill in a few seconds, you need to put down that rifle and pick up some sewing needles.

It is IMMEDIATE ACTION, ie, the gun goes click versus bang.

Do you have some other method that seems to have escaped the U.S. Military?

Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:44:40 AM EDT
SPORTS is slow and complicated compared to the more modern non diagnostic malfunction clearances that trainers like EAG and Gunsite are teaching.

I would be friggin' scared as shit to have to clear a malf in battle, especially in CQB, and not having a pistol to transition to.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:47:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Orion67:
If you can't conduct a SPORTS Immediate Action drill in a few seconds, you need to put down that rifle and pick up some sewing needles.

It is IMMEDIATE ACTION, ie, the gun goes click versus bang.

Do you have some other method that seems to have escaped the U.S. Military?




If armed with a pistol and engaged within 25m, transition to the pistol....best malf clearance known to man!

To clear a rifle, first tap the mag, rack the rifle, and roll it over to make sure it went into battery. This clears bad rounds and unseated magazines. If that doesnt work, drop the mag, lock the bolt, fingerfuck around the chamber to clear stuck, rack three times and reload, then roll and close the dust cover. That gets doublefeeds.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:57:03 AM EDT
Ok, granted, the quickest reload is a second gun, and having a second gun at failure is nice too, but unless everyone is issued and/or carrying a second weapon, Immediate Action is your only choice.

Unless Uncle suddenly saw the light, and issued everyone a pistol and a rifle, and is conducting transition drills, but I dont believe that is the case
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 10:06:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:

Originally Posted By Dace:

Originally Posted By RRA0211:

Originally Posted By Corporal_Chaos:
It just requires more force to load a mag on a closed bolt. I recommend downloading to by two rounds for easier tac reloads.


why? when you reload the bolt is open anyway and you dont have to slap...i would i agree if your bolt catch was busted but if not your just losing rounds



hinking.gif Look up the definition of "tactical reload."



Tactical reloading means putting a full mag in, not 28 rounds. I don't know why that retarded urban legend still lives... "downloading by two rounds." If God intended you to have 28 rounds in the magazine, He would have made them 28 round magazines, not 30. I HAVE NEVER had a problem with 30 round mags, not through years of shooting, including playing in the sand.



I would suggest you read Pat Rogers recent article in SWAT magazine about down loading mags to 28. Just because you have NEVER had a problem, doesn't mean there isn't one. You just haven't experienced it yet.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 10:11:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/24/2006 10:11:41 AM EDT by ZBM2]
The "tap/rack" method has been replaced with the "push/pull" method. There are many issues with the old way of inserting mags (bending of feed lips, mags following out when you release the mag to smack it, takes longer, etc ,etc).

Most of the training classes I have attended discourage folks from using the CH to drop the bolt. Reason being is that folks tend to want to ride the bolt closed creating a malfunction. The bolt release is there for a reason so use it!
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 11:05:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Orion67:
Ok, granted, the quickest reload is a second gun, and having a second gun at failure is nice too, but unless everyone is issued and/or carrying a second weapon, Immediate Action is your only choice.

Unless Uncle suddenly saw the light, and issued everyone a pistol and a rifle, and is conducting transition drills, but I dont believe that is the case



Agreed. From what little I know of military pistol training, it sounds like our Uncle should think long and hard before passing out handguns. But it would be nice if they expended the effort to train people to use them.

Not much of a concern of mine, though, as I am just a "hobby shooter."
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 11:05:39 AM EDT
MY new D&H 12/05 mags are HARD TO SEAT! try different mag maybe


other than that they do FEED
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 11:16:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Orion67:
If you can't conduct a SPORTS Immediate Action drill in a few seconds, you need to put down that rifle and pick up some sewing needles.

It is IMMEDIATE ACTION, ie, the gun goes click versus bang.

Do you have some other method that seems to have escaped the U.S. Military?





Yes, the method Combat Jack is the one I now use after learnign it at the FIRE Institute. It's faster than SPORTS and doesn't require light (Observer) nor does it require decision making (You're Observing and have to make a decision on what to do next).
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 11:26:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By IronBalaclava:
After slapping the mag home, always be sure to give it a tug to make sure it's properly SEATED.


And some would even say release the newly loaded mag and check to see what side the top round is on. Or operate the CH again just make sure.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 11:41:39 AM EDT
I was told by Jim Crews that slapping the magazines can bend the feed lip ears. His advice is to download the mags by two rounds, insert firmly, then pull bottom to confirm seat.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 12:08:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jasonhgross:
I was told by Jim Crews that slapping the magazines can bend the feed lip ears. His advice is to download the mags by two rounds, insert firmly, then pull bottom to confirm seat.


Has he quit advising to remove the mag and feel for the top round?
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 3
Top Top