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Posted: 3/24/2006 12:11:42 PM EDT
[#1]
+1. That's why 28 is advised, not 29. It's on the same side as 30. Works in the dark too in case you ever had to rack it nice and quiet and pull the mag out to be sure the round got chambered. |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 12:16:13 PM EDT
[#2]
This is also the case with other rifles and SA handguns.
Not the case with an AK though, since the mag rocks into place and locks regardless of the tension of the carrier pressing down on the rounds. 
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Posted: 3/24/2006 12:42:05 PM EDT
[#3]
How about reload before empty do they ever teach that?
I do see lots of guys hang on to the charge handle on the way down. I dont even bother to tell them just let it go Im no expert like some of you guys, But I still like the OLD 20 round mags better than the 30 rounders |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 12:43:18 PM EDT
[#4]
I think that's the "tactical reload" we're talking about. |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 12:49:19 PM EDT
[#5]
Say What? Never ride the bolt |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 1:10:11 PM EDT
[#6]
Looks like I been fightin all my wars tha wrong way. Why dont all you folks come and help us poor soldiers out with this new fandangled tac ti cal trainin yall gots. We been loading tha damn magerzines wrong for neirly fifty years now.
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Posted: 3/24/2006 1:22:06 PM EDT
[#7]
After reading all of these recent posts, I removed 2 rounds from the 30 round mags and inserted a couple with the bolt closed. There does seem to be a slight decrease in effort need to lock them but not much IMO. They lock in OK when I really pop them on the bottom.
FMJ noted that his D&H mags were also hard to lock but the one Sanchez I have takes a hard hit also to lock. I also noticed that there is a white residue on the edges of the mags which is transferring to the inside of the mag well. I suppose this is Teflon wearing off and I hope it does not cause a problem. Looks like it would be difficult for it to get into the action. It is a new rifle and new mags so maybe everything has to wear in. I learned a lot about clearing the rifle which I appreciate. Thanks again for the info folks. |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 1:24:59 PM EDT
[#8]
You are most correct. A lot of our Military training is out of date. Many instructors (like Pat Rogers who is ex FORCE RECON) will be the first one to state that the Military needs to change a lot of their training methods (like tap/rack). |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 1:26:36 PM EDT
[#9]
I would love the military to send all its soldiers to these schools, I think it would be very bennificial. I still would load 30 rounds tho
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Posted: 3/24/2006 1:26:52 PM EDT
[#10]
MANY instructors teach this and I know I use it. It is an excellent way to tell if you have chambered a round in the dark. |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 1:30:42 PM EDT
[#11]
I dont know how comfortable I would be pullin a mag out to check this or not, if someone popped up right away I think it would scare me and I would drop the mag
 No, seriously it sounds like a good idea but I would just have to use it and see. I hate my rifle to not have a mag in for any length of time in a fight.
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Posted: 3/24/2006 1:31:17 PM EDT
[#12]
Thats the only way to press check an M4 without reoving your hand from the firing grip. |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 1:32:20 PM EDT
[#13]
He states that routinely, but the yellow glasses crowd in the Corps is pitching a hissy because they feel left out. |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 1:38:53 PM EDT
[#14]
Hell, we have only dominated every war we have ever been invloved in yet the tactics that the military teaches are wrong? I guess we would have done much better in every war if Pat Rogers was teaching our troops huh? For fucks sake, the are called 30 round magazines. Not 28 round magazines. If they were intended to be downloaded then maybe they would be called 30-2 round magazines. However, they aren't. They are called 30 round magazines because they are intended to have a capacity of 30 rounds. |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 1:44:28 PM EDT
[#15]
We are not discussing 'TACTICS' were discussing 'GUNHANDLING'. And yes the there are better ways than what the military teaches. That doesn't mean what the military teaches doesn't work, it just means it's not as efficient.
I'd put money on that. |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 2:04:53 PM EDT
[#16]
Listen up, buddy. The problem isn't winning wars. In WWII, we won by a wide margin. We also lost 400K men. Learning how to operate a weapon properly may or may not win a war. But it probably will save your life. Pat Rogers (and people always accuse those of us who listen to him of name dropping and forming a cult of personality) has the experience to formulate training doctrine. The military teaches a Marine or Soldier to kill a target at 500M, using a wind flag, etc. Pat teaches his students multiple targets, failure and box drills, weapons manipulations, the best set of IADs available, how to shoot on the move, etc, and he concentrates on 25-3M, because experience has shown most M4 or M16 use is in bad breath distance. The military does not listen to its best resources. It is traditional and dogmatic, and that is costing lives. Consider the 4X telescope that the Marines are using for CQB. Or the retained use of the 20 inch barrel when shorter is better for the kind of work our troops find themselves in. Consider the reluctance to use 6.8 SPC, or the logic that brought the Beretta that is bigger than its replacement, although the purpose of the switch was to equip or troops with a smaller pistol. The 30 round mag cost 1 million dollars to develop and it still required the newer green follower. <Stupidity On>If I needed a green follower the Marine Corps would have issued me one<Stupidity Off>. Guess what! They fucking did. The black follower proved problematic, so they designed the new green follower. Now they are using discretionary funds to purchase Magpul followers, Ranger plates and HK mags. No one is perfect, but the military has continually made the mistake of forgoing learning for tradition. If you want to argue that the military is perfect, do it somewhere else. There is plenty of development that occurs outside of the US military; they would do well to listen a little better. |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 2:08:30 PM EDT
[#17]
You would ONLY use this technique when you were getting ready for say a mission. If you were in a fire fight and your weapon ran dry you would ram another mag in (push/pull), drop and the bolt and rock N roll. |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 2:09:27 PM EDT
[#18]
I wish they would. |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 2:13:03 PM EDT
[#19]
Having been in the Military and work for the Military, I am 100% convinced that we win wars because we have more bombs. hinking.gif You are correct. They are 30rd mags. They go in every time as easy as pie on an OPEN BOLT. Close the bolt, add someone shooting at you and see how well you do getting the mag in every time. |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 2:34:51 PM EDT
[#20]
So Obviously we are all anxious to find out if you got your Magazine into the Receiver? 
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Posted: 3/24/2006 2:43:08 PM EDT
[#21]
You are correct and my original post might have been confused as meaning that Jim advocated fingering the round on every mag change. Not the case; it is as ZBM2 indicates. |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 2:48:26 PM EDT
[#22]
As an additional note to fears that you might ride the bolt using a CH manipulation: if you make a hook with the left index finger or blade your left hand and hook/sweep the CH smartly to the rear and follow through past the mechanical stop of the CH you won't ride the bolt.
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Posted: 3/24/2006 2:52:10 PM EDT
[#23]
Air supremacy/dominance is a wonderful thing. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy, dreaming of sunshine and little bunnies hopping though spring meadows.... Anyway, we haven't had to face a serious air threat in over 60 years. I'll give the AF credit for a lot of that, and it sure makes problem solving those pesky real estate disputes a lot easier. |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 3:15:20 PM EDT
[#24]
Yeah... I figured this thread would disintegrate into the 28 vs 30 rd debate after the first poster suggested down loading by 2rds.. And then the crowd that say's "it Holds 30 , you load thirty" jump on in..... and then Finally the Pat Roger Haters fire up after he's mentioned for the simple fact that he teaches "A Way" to load Mags.. not "THE Way" (He's not the only Instructor by the way that does teach this technique.
And then there's the "Been theredone that" crowd who are incapable of looking at any other technique unless it's the one they Used and everyone else is stupid and does not know any better. Hey Pastprime Use the "Push/Pull Method to seat your mags. You choose either to load 28 or 30 and then Push the mag in till it locks and then give it a little pull to make sure it is seated. Your choice of 28 vs 30 is up to you and dependent on who you want to listen to.. I already know Who I would listen to...... |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 4:51:49 PM EDT
[#25]
Sure we have more bombs and that does do a great deal in the war effort. But you still can't win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people by bombing the living shit out of their towns. Also, bombs aren't going to reach each and every enemy. You HAVE to have boots on the ground in any war if you plan to come out totally victorious. That is why the Marine's train, train, train, train, and train for that kind of stuff non-stop. |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 5:12:54 PM EDT
[#26]
Well, what the fuck do you expect when we are outnumbered in battles by easily more than 3:1 and our enemy is using pussified tactics? Men will die in combat. If Pat could somehow have taught the Marines that fought on Iwo Jima or maybe Tarawa, when would his push/pull method and downloading methods come into use? Maybe when the Japenese were banzai attacking and the Marine's are out of ammo resulting in hand-to-hand combat? I'm sure they would have wished that they had those rounds they didn't use by downloading 2 rounds. Maybe whenever they kamakazied our ships? Perhaps one of those rounds that they took out by downloading would have struck an engine and sent the plane into the ocean instead of into the side of the ship? Or when the Japs would purposely call out "Corpsman" and the Corpsman would come looking for a casualty and end up at the wrong end of a Japanese rifle? Yeah, I'm sure his push/pull method came in handy then. I just can't stand people acting like Pat Rogers is the God of weapons and tactics. The Marines have been doing it for 230 years now; I would think that they feel that their training is the correct method. I'm not saying that Pat doesn't know a thing or two but I feel confident that our military knows what it is doing and it is doing it right. I don't think we would be sending men into combat zones with the knowledge that "they don't have the best training that they should with their weapons". This is why there are requirements and courses that must be passed before basic training can be graduated. Then, infantry are sent to even more training after that. |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 5:15:22 PM EDT
[#27]
This is such a stupid-ass arguement.
Load 30 rounds. Hell, tape 'em together. After you have "the click heard 'round the world", you'll do shit differently. After 14 years in the Army, the only actual weapons training I ever had that was worth a damn was my four years in SF. Say, that reminds me... Your average Marine could use 40 hours of CQB/SOT. Improves the learning curve later on. |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 5:19:56 PM EDT
[#28]
What the fuck is this supposed to mean? 
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Posted: 3/24/2006 5:22:44 PM EDT
[#29]
290k combat deaths in WWII. Roughly one percent of the total civilian/military fatalities of the Soviet Union, who lost at least 20 million.
I load 29 myself. |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 5:23:54 PM EDT
[#30]
AGNTSA!
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Posted: 3/24/2006 5:46:49 PM EDT
[#31]
Thanks sounds like a winner 
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Posted: 3/24/2006 5:49:33 PM EDT
[#32]
Hey Tyler,
I've kinda been looking at your posts and always thought you were a cold, unimaginative officer, actually you're quite emotional. |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 6:41:37 PM EDT
[#33]
TylerM_8
Wow..Someone drank the Cool-Aid..... Are you really so Arrogant to believe That The Marine Corp is so perfectly trained that they cannot evolve and learn new and different Tactics. That 230 years of History is pale in comparison to the CENTURIES of History the Roman Legions have and their not around anymore. Do you really believe that a BASIC Trained Infantrymen is such a weapons expert on manipulation of his weapon that no further training from anyone outside you beloved Corp is needed. Don't forget the Corp gave us the 20" Fence post of a Target Rifle the M16A2...........  Thank God we got smart and developed the M-4 as a Fighting weapon as opposed to the nice A2 Target Stock and the M1907 Sling........  We have the greatest Military in the world, but don't think for a minute that their training and tactics are the end all be all. The Marines Only started Combat Marksmanship training and CQB training for the Fleet AFTER the War started and not before. They were still playing the "Every Marine a Riflemen" Propaganda with shooting coats on Manicured grass firing ranges with flags and scorecards........ Once they had to go CQB in the sandbox, they had to relearn some costly lessons that did not have to be learned if they would not have let pride get in their way of their training thought process. Special Operations have been above the curve for years because of their experience and with out the need to measure their dick every time they train. They have guys like Rob Leatham ,etc who come in and teach them different skills. They don't worry about their "History" they find the best subject matter expert and they train with him..period... They use a variety of trainers with all different skill sets. Don't be blinded by The Corp's Image and History and think their the preeminent force on the battle field and cannot learn from anyone outside of it. To do so is to cheat those 19 year old LanceCpl's out of some knowledgeable that could give them the edge and bring them home in one piece. |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 6:54:25 PM EDT
[#34]
Very wisely expressed Harv.
Being courageous, physically conditioned and well-disciplined are not the sum of the components. Applicable training and a helluva lot of luck are equally important Right said, Fred |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 7:23:38 PM EDT
[#35]
Well, I guess I started this with my question about mag insertion issues. It was interesting to read the posts (and I read all of them).
I learned a lot and found that I have a lot to learn about AR's. So, I have done some more practice in the garage and bottom line is: I will sell the 30 round mags I have and replace them with more 20 round mags. As many of you have said; do what suits your situation best. And what suits me is not having to beat the shit out of my 62 year old hand to get a 30 round mag to lock in place when a 20 rounder goes in a lot easier. Thanks again for the info. Looking forward to being a member here. Hank |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 8:06:07 PM EDT
[#36]
Amen ASU1911. Although I prefer 30 rounds loaded, you are right on about the .mil's problems. |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 9:01:58 PM EDT
[#37]
What's the problem with the M16A2? |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 10:46:30 PM EDT
[#38]
Barrel and stock are too long, sights are overly complext and fragile, no railed forend, no railed reciever. The M16A4 is a step in the right direction but a 16 inch mid length is the best bet. We'll see what else hits the market soon. Remember two things: 1) We live in a 300M world. 2) Most contact will be at >30M. Shoot them twice in the chest and once in the head. |
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Posted: 3/25/2006 6:42:01 AM EDT
[#39]
I think that regular Army, and yes, Marines, have alot of revamping to do to their training. I agree it is not on par with where it needs to be but the people we are losing in Iraq is not due to poor training for combat, it is due mainly to the IED threat. Anyone who has been there will tell you that this is the most frustrating aspect of it all. In a face to face fight we prevail time and time again, but against a faceless enemy, with our hands tied alot of time by political decisions, we are sitting ducks. Our success on the battlefield is not measured by 28 or 30 rounds in our magazines but our ability through training to be able to overcome obstacles and adapt as needed. Anyone who has fought alongside todays soldiers will tell you they are 100% capable warfighters. The will to win that we have and the pride insitlled in us I believe gives us an edge, along with our training, when fighting against these hard line muslim extremists we face. True there are soldiers out there who dont give a damn but that is a problem inherent to the system and is alot better today than what it was 13 years ago when I first signd up. Pat Rogers is a knowledgeable, experienced man I am sure, but no tactic is sound, not even his. I firmly believe the best method for anyone to use in combat is one he is familiar with and can perform over and over again without a second thought, whether it be how he loads a mag, or how he changes a mag, or whatever, it must be muscle memory or even the best method will be useless. Anyone who does not understand this does not have a clue what it takes to win in combat.
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Posted: 3/25/2006 7:25:02 AM EDT
[#40]
this post makes about as much sense two boys fighting over a bag of dicks.
there YOUR mags, load them however the hell you want. you can even explane your logic for doing it your way. but you cant force someone to do it your way. why dose anyone care this much about what the other dose with there mags anyway? |
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Posted: 3/25/2006 5:25:52 PM EDT
[#41]
TylerM_8
If you have to ask this question.......  Here's the Answer from ASU1911
The M16A2 was created by Target Shooters with no forethought about MOUT and having to wear Body Armor. They were to worried with being able to adjust for a 7MPH crosswind at 500yards and to have a stock that worked great in the classic Offhand Unsupported position in a shooting jacket..........  I guess they never had to worry about needing a light to clear a building or cave or a IR laser to designate and engage tgts at Night with NVG's..........That's what comes from Institutionalized thinking and not looking at the lessons that are learned over and over again in every conflict. |
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Posted: 3/25/2006 5:37:07 PM EDT
[#43]
Uhm Pat was just one example of a tier 1 instructor advising folks to download mags to 28. Every instructor I have had told me to download by 2. Some don't even bother saying it and just wait for someone to drop a mag and then ask the if they loaded their mags correctly. The answer is always no! I would suggest you do a little more research before you open your pie hole. |
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Posted: 3/25/2006 6:21:43 PM EDT
[#44]
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Posted: 3/25/2006 6:48:07 PM EDT
[#45]
Unless you get a round hung up under the CH. Working the CH will not clear this. |
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Posted: 3/25/2006 11:05:04 PM EDT
[#46]
Correct, the way to clear this is a real bitch. You have to get a finger on the bolt and pull it and the CH at the same time, the let the CH forward enough to let the round drop free. I dont see SPORTS or a FA helping that one any. |
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Posted: 3/25/2006 11:19:10 PM EDT
[#47]
How does a round get hung up by the charging handle? During feed or ejection?
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Posted: 3/25/2006 11:37:51 PM EDT
[#48]
I wish I would have popped some popcorn before this thread started.... probably would have choked on it when people started discrediting Pat. 28 rounds for me.
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Posted: 3/25/2006 11:39:17 PM EDT
[#49]
Why give up 1, 2, or 3 rounds? Those rounds are worth a slap to me. |
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Posted: 3/25/2006 11:53:28 PM EDT
[#50]
Me too, for me, slapping the magazine is more reliable and quicker. With that said, whatever method works for YOU is the method to use. |
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