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Posted: 10/12/2003 4:44:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By curt (aka: Donald C Stiles):

Originally Posted By DaPhotoGuy:
Scenario for you. I'm in my house at night. I hear a noise downstairs. My wife is right next to me, I grab my AR and look in my boy's room, he is sleeping soundly. I head downstairs and clearly see a silhouette moving quietly across my living room. Why the heck would I need to illuminate the target before I shoot. If someone is in my house at night without my knowledge his life is forfeit and I CAN shoot him with my EoTech on.



You sir are a dumbass.



Perhaps you can explain WHY you feel this statement makes me a dumbass. Is it because you feel I'm going to get thrown in jail for accidentally shooting an innocent? I'll take that chance. My home is locked up tight, nobody is just going to WANDER into it at night. I'd rather take the SMALL chance that it isn't a criminal then take the BIG chance that my family could come to harm. If the intruder IS a crack head and the cops try and say I didn't have the right to shoot him because he wasn't a threat, I simply say, "Hey, I yelled 'get out of my house' and the guy said he was going to kill me. What else could I do?" So again, please elaborate on your witty use of the word "dumbass".

Besides, if I wait for the cops to show up, he gets away and just goes and robs (or worse) some other home tomorrow.

If anyone else has an opinion as to why or why not these statements make me a dumbass, please feel free to post a reply.

P.S. - Curt didn't want to hijack the other thread and I respect him for that. His name calling is uncalled for, maybe he just had a bad day.
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 4:53:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/12/2003 8:51:25 AM EDT by Spooge5150]
First! You are not a dumbass! Just need to think about it for a sec. The laws states, you need to be in fear of your life to use lethal force. Case: A unarmed intruder, say a 15 year old boy looking to steal your T.V., so he can buy his girlfriend a ring, is not threatening your life. He never was going to come in your house to do you or your family harm, all his buddies he told this to know it, he never carried a weapon in your house, and had every intention of running away if confronted. Bang you shoot a 15 year old kid, and he dies. You are in trouble. Now you hear a noise, and do what you said, and shine the light, and see a grown man with a knife, coming at you. Blow him away, and get a pat on the back from the police, and DA. Same thing.. Person in your house at night. Two different senarios.
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 5:16:29 AM EDT
It's kinda being a dumbass... I hope you know FOR A FACT that your child IS in their bed. The scenario you described is VERY similar to an experience of my own -- After being woken up in the middle of the night by noises eminating from our downstairs dining room, I took my .45 to investigate (I told my wife to stay in our bedroom and be ready with the phone)...it turned out to be her VERY disoriented grandfather (who had a key to our home because he lived 4 blocks away and watches our house when we're gone). The next day he was diagnosed as having Alzheimers. How would I have felt had I shot my wife's grandfather BEFORE determining if lethal force was necessary? I would have felt like a DUMBASS! Blindly pulling a trigger is an act of cowardice. Using lethal force when it may not be neccesary is not only ridiculously stupid, but immoral (IMO).
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 5:22:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/12/2003 5:24:07 AM EDT by Aimless]
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 5:26:20 AM EDT
You can't use your weapon to get your property back. You can only use the weapon to save your life when you are in danger. Now, the point is how you define a "threat" which you can succefully convince the jurors that your life is being threatened. I recommend you to get a book "In the Gravest Extreme: The Role of the firearm in Personal Protection". A lot of true cases in this book. You can get a clear concept about when to use your firearms. The most important thing is how you protect yourself lawfully as you fire your weapon. It is a must-read book for all gun owners.
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 5:31:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Spooge5150: First! You are not a dumbass! Just need to think about it for a sec. The laws states, you need to be in fear of your life to use lethal force. Case: A unarmed intruder, say a 15 year old boy looking to steal your T.V., so he can buy his girlfriend a ring, is not theating your life. He never was going to come in your house to do your or your family harm, all his buddies he told this to know it, he never carried a weapon in your house, and had every intention of running away if confronted. Bang you shoot a 15 year old kid, and he dies. You are in trouble. Now you hear a noise, and do what you said, and shine the light, and see a grown man with a knife, coming at you. Blow him away, and get a pat on the back from the police, and DA. Same thing.. Person in your house at night. Two different senarios.
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Just remember, in FL, we have the Castle Doctrine. I do not have to be in fear of my life to use deadly force in all instances. I can use it to protect my property as well, and, if someone enters your house uninvited, well, too bad for him. Besides, an intruder in your house at any time SHOULD have you in fear of your life or great bodily harm. I doubt he's there to dust the furniture for you. [;)] That said, if at ALL possible, one should ALWAYS try to be sure of your target. In the real world, that isnt always possible. However, I want to light up the person in question so that I can be absolutley 100% sure I hit him. You enter my house, I dont want you leaving under your own power. Here is one possibility, though it is a bit of a reach for some I admit, it is possible. Suppose you have a friend/relative that is staying a night with you. You wake up and hear something, go check it out and see a person moving, fight or flight kicks in, adrenaline dump commences, vision narrows, heart races, blood flow decreases to brain, and since it is not something that is a NORMAL occurance for you, you forget that you have a guest......I'll let you take it from there. Now, lets not get anything misconstrued. As soon as you light them up and determine that they are NOT supposed to be there, then you fire. There is no lighting them up to scare them or whatever. You light them up and either A. identify them as an unwanted intruder at which time you (should be) are in fear of deaht or great bodily injury and IMMEDIATELY eliminate the threat, or, B. you identify them to be the house guest you forgot about (or whatever), lower your weapon, and then go get a tall glass of milk to drink while you sit and wait for your adrenaline dump to subside so you can go lay back down. So yes, I would/do try to illuminate my target when at all practically possible, as I dont like to shoot at a dark silouhette, when I can at all help it. I do agree to, I will give no warning at all to an intruder. I dont like intruders.
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 5:35:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/12/2003 5:36:37 AM EDT by Hawkeye]
Originally Posted By wengv: You can't use your weapon to get your property back. You can only use the weapon to save your life when you are in danger. Now, the point is how you define a "threat" which you can succefully convince the jurors that your life is being threatened. I recommend you to get a book "In the Gravest Extreme: The Role of the firearm in Personal Protection". A lot of true cases in this book. You can get a clear concept about when to use your firearms. The most important thing is how you protect yourself lawfully as you fire your weapon. It is a must-read book for all gun owners.
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There are quite a few things in that book that do not apply to all states. Good read overall though. People, be VERY CLEAR about something here. [b]THE LAWS IN EACH STATE CAN AND DO VARY, SOMETIMES TO GREAT EXTREMES.[/b] What I can legally do here in FL, is a FAR cry from what someone can do in another state. You MUST remember this when talking about these things.
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 5:35:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/12/2003 7:28:44 AM EDT by Spooge5150]
Hawkeye Yes. I know all too well. I have a CCW permit, and have shot and killed an intruder in my home. I went through the whole court room thing, and the amount of bullshit the defense came up with to sway the jury was AMAZING! The 2nd guy, who ran like a scared rabbit. One more second he would be 6 feet under like his friend. [url]http://www.dc.state.fl.us/ActiveInmates/detail.asp?Bookmark=1&From=list&SessionID=507602264[/url] Needless to say the state, and I won!!!!!
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 5:38:42 AM EDT
Hawkeye 10/12/2003 9:31:00 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally Posted By Spooge5150: First! You are not a dumbass! Just need to think about it for a sec. The laws states, you need to be in fear of your life to use lethal force. Case: A unarmed intruder, say a 15 year old boy looking to steal your T.V., so he can buy his girlfriend a ring, is not theating your life. He never was going to come in your house to do your or your family harm, all his buddies he told this to know it, he never carried a weapon in your house, and had every intention of running away if confronted. Bang you shoot a 15 year old kid, and he dies. You are in trouble. Now you hear a noise, and do what you said, and shine the light, and see a grown man with a knife, coming at you. Blow him away, and get a pat on the back from the police, and DA. Same thing.. Person in your house at night. Two different senarios. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just remember, in FL, we have the Castle Doctrine. I do not have to be in fear of my life to use deadly force in all instances. I can use it to protect my property as well, and, if someone enters your house uninvited, well, too bad for him. Besides, an intruder in your house at any time SHOULD have you in fear of your life or great bodily harm. I doubt he's there to dust the furniture for you. That said, if at ALL possible, one should ALWAYS try to be sure of your target. In the real world, that isnt always possible. However, I want to light up the person in question so that I can be absolutley 100% sure I hit him. You enter my house, I dont want you leaving under your own power. Here is one possibility, though it is a bit of a reach for some I admit, it is possible. Suppose you have a friend/relative that is staying a night with you. You wake up and hear something, go check it out and see a person moving, fight or flight kicks in, adrenaline dump commences, vision narrows, heart races, blood flow decreases to brain, and since it is not something that is a NORMAL occurance for you, you forget that you have a guest......I'll let you take it from there. Now, lets not get anything misconstrued. As soon as you light them up and determine that they are NOT supposed to be there, then you fire. There is no lighting them up to scare them or whatever. You light them up and either A. identify them as an unwanted intruder at which time you (should be) are in fear of deaht or great bodily injury and IMMEDIATELY eliminate the threat, or, B. you identify them to be the house guest you forgot about (or whatever), lower your weapon, and then go get a tall glass of milk to drink while you sit and wait for your adrenaline dump to subside so you can go lay back down. So yes, I would/do try to illuminate my target when at all practically possible, as I dont like to shoot at a dark silouhette, when I can at all help it. I do agree to, I will give no warning at all to an intruder. I dont like intruders.
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I agree with this totally ( i live in fla. lol) The first thing i grab is the SUREFIRE and then the .38, ya also gotta understand the cops have been tryin to do NO-KNOCK intrusions and half the time they get the wronge house. IT really depends ont he scenerio, if someone breaks in and i hear them tryin to take the TV, ill illuminate them and see what happens, if someone is making a Bee-Line to the bedroom where im sleeping , no illumination, they get double tapped on the spot. LOL,, on a side note, can ya imagine what our parents would be thinking about what was goin on in the middle of the night when we were kids, i use to come and go and stay up late and wonder around the house at all hours. lol
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 5:38:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Spooge5150: Hawkeye Yes. I know all too well. I have a CCW permit, and have shot and killed an intruder in my home. I went through the whole court room thing, and the amount of bullshit the defense came up with to sway the jury was AMAZING! Edit: Not my defense, the guy I shot had a buddy who came with him.
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Would like to talk with you about that sometime, off the board. Yes, I have sat in on some cases that were just unbelieveable. Thats why I prefer that only one side of the story be told.
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 5:43:50 AM EDT
Target identification is always a must. IF you jump to conclusions and kill someone your gonna be introuble.
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 5:52:15 AM EDT
I am glad you came out of that mess OK.
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 5:59:53 AM EDT
Safety is safety, [b]KNOW[/b] your target and understand that targeting is done with the full consequence of DESTROYING, that which IS targeted. Illuminate, identify, interpret, inform, inflict!!! There you have it the 5 "I"s. I just made that up, makes sense - right?
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 6:06:10 AM EDT
I have to agree with the "illuminate" your intruder crowd. It would be completely stupid to shoot an an unknown silhouette.
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 6:07:37 AM EDT
Let's see................... Let's ponder for a second if the person you shoot turns out to be, Drunken neighbor kid, trying to sneak into his own house, but got lost. Alzheimers patient missing from "the home". Child friend of your child, who your kid has smuggled in because their parent's are abusive. Gee, you think shooting any of them, and saying you did NOTHING to ID them prior to shooting might be a problem?
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 6:16:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: Let's see................... Let's ponder for a second if the person you shoot turns out to be, Drunken neighbor kid, trying to sneak into his own house, but got lost. Alzheimers patient missing from "the home". Child friend of your child, who your kid has smuggled in because their parent's are abusive. Gee, you think shooting any of them, and saying you did NOTHING to ID them prior to shooting might be a problem?
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Hit the nail on the head...this whole "I'm a badass because I'll shoot someone" mentality is hillarious. Shooting at an unidentified target is about the dumbest thing I've seen on these boards.
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 6:32:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Shades:
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: Let's see................... Let's ponder for a second if the person you shoot turns out to be, Drunken neighbor kid, trying to sneak into his own house, but got lost. Alzheimers patient missing from "the home". Child friend of your child, who your kid has smuggled in because their parent's are abusive. Gee, you think shooting any of them, and saying you did NOTHING to ID them prior to shooting might be a problem?
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Hit the nail on the head...this whole [red]"I'm a badass because I'll shoot someone"[/red] mentality is hillarious. Shooting at an unidentified target is about the dumbest thing I've seen on these boards.
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Nothing personal to you, but why in the hell do statements like that have to be brought into a discussion? It seems to happen a lot around here, for no reason at all, and serves no purpose whatsoever. No one has said anything like that.
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 6:39:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Hawkeye:
Originally Posted By Shades:
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: Let's see................... Let's ponder for a second if the person you shoot turns out to be, Drunken neighbor kid, trying to sneak into his own house, but got lost. Alzheimers patient missing from "the home". Child friend of your child, who your kid has smuggled in because their parent's are abusive. Gee, you think shooting any of them, and saying you did NOTHING to ID them prior to shooting might be a problem?
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Hit the nail on the head...this whole [red]"I'm a badass because I'll shoot someone"[/red] mentality is hillarious. Shooting at an unidentified target is about the dumbest thing I've seen on these boards.
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Nothing personal to you, but why in the hell do statements like that have to be brought into a discussion? It seems to happen a lot around here, for no reason at all, and serves no purpose whatsoever. No one has said anything like that.
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Try reading the posts. Of course that was brought into the discussion. Or maybe you think shooting an unidentified target in a home is "smart"?
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 7:00:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Shades:
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: Let's see................... Let's ponder for a second if the person you shoot turns out to be, Drunken neighbor kid, trying to sneak into his own house, but got lost. Alzheimers patient missing from "the home". Child friend of your child, who your kid has smuggled in because their parent's are abusive. Gee, you think shooting any of them, and saying you did NOTHING to ID them prior to shooting might be a problem?
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Hit the nail on the head...this whole "I'm a badass because I'll shoot someone" mentality is hillarious. Shooting at an unidentified target is about the dumbest thing I've seen on these boards.
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Humm... taking your advice, and reading just this [b]THREAD[/b]. The only comment made like that was by the person with whom started this post. Now who is the D-----s?
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 7:03:26 AM EDT
[size=2]Originally Posted By DaPhotoGuy: I head downstairs and clearly see a silhouette moving quietly across my living room. Why the heck would I need to illuminate the target before I shoot. If someone is in my house at night without my knowledge his life is forfeit and I CAN shoot him with my EoTech on.[/size=2] I'd rather take the [red][u]SMALL[/u][/red] chance that it isn't a criminal then take the BIG chance that my family could come to harm.
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I can understand your concern for your wife and family BUT... your logic scares me. Several members here have given examples of why you wouldn't just start blasting away at an unknown target. I'm LEO in Calif. About 80% of the 'intruders' in homes at night are kids, drunks, or alzheimers patients. So it's not a [u]small[/u] chance that it isn't a criminal, it's a [b]greater[/b] chance it isn't a criminal. Killing someone who had it coming is much easier to live with than blasting granny alzheimer because you didn't take the time to identify your target. Your logic sounds like you are scared about handling yourself or the inability of your wife to take care of your family while you are busy (I don't mean this as an insult). If your family is upstairs, then make a stand at the staircase before you challenge the person and illuminate them. Does your wife know how to use a gun? My best backup partner at home is my wife (shoots very well). She would zip a nun if she was holding a pencil with the sharpened end out. We have a plan on what to do if there is ever someone in our house (our neighbors are crankster tweakers). Develop a plan with your wife and children, even if they don't know how to use a gun. Which room to go to (preferable one with a phone or cell phone) and a password to use if you are coming through the door. Once that bullet leaves the barrel there is no recalling it. One last thing - you're using an AR for home defense? I suggest the venerable .45, or the 12 guage. They both have greater shock value than a small, fast moving bullet.
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 7:24:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/12/2003 7:29:51 AM EDT by bvmjethead]
Originally Posted By Aimless: Or a cop driving by sees a man jimmying the door open and entering your house. He sees the man enter through the door and notices the man draws a pistol before he goes in. [red]The cop suspects he knows who this guy is[/red] and that he is dangerous, violent and has outstanding warrants for other burglaries, one in which he raped a woman and he already has two previous felony convictions for burglary. The man walks down a hall, or somewhere else out of sight so the cop draws his pistol and enters after him. You now come to the top of the stairs, and shoot the cop, figuring that you can shoot anyone who enters your house. You get to spend, let's say 7 years in state prison, and the cop's widow sues you and gets a 10 gazillion dollar judgment against you, so while you are in prison your wife and son lose the house etc etc etc
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Good point in theory but bad example. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe a cop can enter your home without your permission or a warrant no matter who/what he [red] suspects [/red] he's chasing. Just picking on ya Aimless. DaPhotoGuy, I don't think you're a DA, I used to feel the same way till I got a little education on lights and their uses. Target identification PRIOR to elimination is paramount. I'm sure you see the "light" now as well, there have been plenty of great examples given.
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 7:27:24 AM EDT
I'd have to agree here, it's irresponsible to shoot at shadows, silhouettes, noises, etc. Part of being a responsible firearms owner, and acting on basic rules of safety is to always, always identify your target.
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 7:51:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Shades:
Originally Posted By Hawkeye:
Originally Posted By Shades:
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: Let's see................... Let's ponder for a second if the person you shoot turns out to be, Drunken neighbor kid, trying to sneak into his own house, but got lost. Alzheimers patient missing from "the home". Child friend of your child, who your kid has smuggled in because their parent's are abusive. Gee, you think shooting any of them, and saying you did NOTHING to ID them prior to shooting might be a problem?
View Quote
Hit the nail on the head...this whole [red]"I'm a badass because I'll shoot someone"[/red] mentality is hillarious. Shooting at an unidentified target is about the dumbest thing I've seen on these boards.
View Quote
Nothing personal to you, but why in the hell do statements like that have to be brought into a discussion? It seems to happen a lot around here, for no reason at all, and serves no purpose whatsoever. No one has said anything like that.
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Try reading the posts. Of course that was brought into the discussion. Or maybe you think shooting an unidentified target in a home is "smart"?
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I have read the thread multiple times, and still dont see where anyone said anything remotely close to being a "badass", unless you take folks complete lack of tolerance of homeinvaders as such. I can see where my posts can be taken as thinking that shooting an unidentified target in a home is smart. So, to clarify, no, I dont think it is smart. Sometimes necessary, but not smart.
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 7:54:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Shades:
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: Let's see................... Let's ponder for a second if the person you shoot turns out to be, Drunken neighbor kid, trying to sneak into his own house, but got lost. Alzheimers patient missing from "the home". Child friend of your child, who your kid has smuggled in because their parent's are abusive. Gee, you think shooting any of them, and saying you did NOTHING to ID them prior to shooting might be a problem?
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Hit the nail on the head...this whole "I'm a badass because I'll shoot someone" mentality is hillarious. Shooting at an unidentified target is about the dumbest thing I've seen on these boards.
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Sorry, but I don't think I'm a 'badass'. I just feel my family's safety is more important. Stupid or not, I NEVER was in the mood you describe.
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 8:01:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By WARDOG7366:
[size=2]Originally Posted By DaPhotoGuy: I head downstairs and clearly see a silhouette moving quietly across my living room. Why the heck would I need to illuminate the target before I shoot. If someone is in my house at night without my knowledge his life is forfeit and I CAN shoot him with my EoTech on.[/size=2] I'd rather take the [red][u]SMALL[/u][/red] chance that it isn't a criminal then take the BIG chance that my family could come to harm.
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I can understand your concern for your wife and family BUT... your logic scares me. Several members here have given examples of why you wouldn't just start blasting away at an unknown target. I'm LEO in Calif. About 80% of the 'intruders' in homes at night are kids, drunks, or alzheimers patients. So it's not a [u]small[/u] chance that it isn't a criminal, it's a [b]greater[/b] chance it isn't a criminal. Killing someone who had it coming is much easier to live with than blasting granny alzheimer because you didn't take the time to identify your target. Your logic sounds like you are scared about handling yourself or the inability of your wife to take care of your family while you are busy (I don't mean this as an insult). If your family is upstairs, then make a stand at the staircase before you challenge the person and illuminate them. Does your wife know how to use a gun? My best backup partner at home is my wife (shoots very well). She would zip a nun if she was holding a pencil with the sharpened end out. We have a plan on what to do if there is ever someone in our house (our neighbors are crankster tweakers). Develop a plan with your wife and children, even if they don't know how to use a gun. Which room to go to (preferable one with a phone or cell phone) and a password to use if you are coming through the door. Once that bullet leaves the barrel there is no recalling it. One last thing - you're using an AR for home defense? I suggest the venerable .45, or the 12 guage. They both have greater shock value than a small, fast moving bullet.
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I actually don't use my AR for home defense. I use my Rugar P95. Not as good as a .45 or 12 ga but it's easier to keep in the handgun safe by the bed.
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 8:04:31 AM EDT
I think that you should try and illuminate the intruder, like it has been said above more times than not it's not someone trying to rob you. I mean you've got an AR and suprize on your side, flick the light on and if it's a burgular they will shit. If they do anything to threatin you then blast away. Also if I did loose it and shoot the sillouete they would find a big knife in the persons hand, maybe a gun.
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 8:07:24 AM EDT
Yes, an AR for home defense. More effective than a handgun, much less over pentration concern through walls than handguns and shotguns in case of a miss. There still seems to be this myth floating around, even here, that AR's arent good for home defense, when in reality, they are one of the best.
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 8:08:58 AM EDT
Just in case anyone missed it, this started [url=http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=171719] here[/url]
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 8:12:27 AM EDT
I truly believe that you are doing what you think is in the best interest of your family. It's admirable to see someone who is really a father and a husband and takes that responsibility seriously. You must look at the bigger picture, however. Who will take care of and protect your family when you are in prison? With the philosophy you have, it is very possible you will end up in prison. Making the choice to defend your home with deadly force is a huge decision and there are many things to consider besides the confrontation itself. If you really care about the best interests of your family, you should think long and hard about your position.
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 8:13:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By WARDOG7366: I'm LEO in Calif. About 80% of the 'intruders' in homes at night are kids, drunks, or alzheimers patients. So it's not a [u]small[/u] chance that it isn't a criminal, it's a [b]greater[/b] chance it isn't a criminal.
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I am curious about this 80% statistic. When you say 'kids' do you mean your own kids and their friends or OTHER kids that are breaking in to rob you? If they are OTHER kids then they are criminals and may be dangerous (depends). After reading everyone's comments I now agree I should probably try to identify the target first in some way. If I don't have a light available then in another way. I admit I'm uncomfortable with a light for the fact that it reveals your own position to the possible armed intruder. I'm assuming that statistics prove that if you are ready to fire and flip on a light for identification you will probably be able to identify and fire before the bad guy?? To bad good night vision is so damned expensive. Does anyone here consider night vision better than a weapon light?
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 8:14:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By whywork40: I think that you should try and illuminate the intruder, like it has been said above more times than not it's not someone trying to rob you. I mean you've got an AR and suprize on your side, flick the light on and if it's a burgular they will shit. If they do anything to threatin you then blast away. Also if I did loose it and shoot the sillouete they would find a big knife in the persons hand, maybe a gun.
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To correct you, they would find a big knife in the persons had IF THAT person was a criminal, right? B^)
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 8:18:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/12/2003 8:18:58 AM EDT by Spooge5150]
"I admit I'm uncomfortable with a light for the fact that it reveals your own position to the possible armed intruder." Yes this is a consideration, but remember most intruders are strangers. To them: unfamiliar house, in the dark, not knowing who is there, is the home owner armed, how many people home, etc etc. [b]YOU[/b] have the upper hand, especially if you temp blind them with a bright light.
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 8:22:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DaPhotoGuy:
Originally Posted By WARDOG7366: I'm LEO in Calif. About 80% of the 'intruders' in homes at night are kids, drunks, or alzheimers patients. So it's not a [u]small[/u] chance that it isn't a criminal, it's a [b]greater[/b] chance it isn't a criminal.
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I am curious about this 80% statistic. When you say 'kids' do you mean your own kids and their friends or OTHER kids that are breaking in to rob you? If they are OTHER kids then they are criminals and may be dangerous (depends). After reading everyone's comments I now agree I should probably try to identify the target first in some way. If I don't have a light available then in another way. I admit I'm uncomfortable with a light for the fact that it reveals your own position to the possible armed intruder. I'm assuming that statistics prove that if you are ready to fire and flip on a light for identification you will probably be able to identify and fire before the bad guy?? To bad good night vision is so damned expensive. Does anyone here consider night vision better than a weapon light?
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Yes, action beats re-action. You already have everything in your mind set. As soon as you turn on that light, see and verify bad guy, bang. He will never know he was shot. His mind has to process too much info. Besides, he wont be able to see you anyway with a Surefire in his eyes. You have a decided advantage in your home as well, of knowing the layout and where everything is. Even if he has a partner, the partner will still have a hard time figuring out exactly where you are. The proper use of a tactical light, which I think is missed or simply not understood by many, doesnt have you wandering around with the light on. Its on for a split second, then off. Get with a friend. Go to his house, preferably one that you do not know the layout of very well. Go at night. Have him hide inside with a light and all the interior lights out. See how easily you can find him, and what your reaction is when he lights you up.
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 8:22:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Spooge5150: "I admit I'm uncomfortable with a light for the fact that it reveals your own position to the possible armed intruder." Yes this is a consideration, but remember most intruders are strangers. To them: unfamiliar house, in the dark, not knowing who is there, is the home owner armed, how many people home, etc etc. [b]YOU[/b] have the upper hand, especially if you temp blind them with a bright light.
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Bingo.
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 8:45:40 AM EDT
[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid49/p123d4fef174b83949c314c22b4de1c4b/fcb59236.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 8:56:27 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 8:56:48 AM EDT
In PA you technically need to be be cornered have no where to run before using lethal force. all though im sure you could use lethal force if they have a gun pointing at you. But i know that you must try to evade the intruder before using the lethal force..
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 9:01:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Aimless: I hope Surefire sends you a Christmas card every year.
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[lolabove]
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 9:11:47 AM EDT
Dude, thats an old picture, I need to take a new family portrait. The clan has grown noticably.
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 9:26:21 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 9:33:13 AM EDT
First of all i'd like to appologize for calling daphotoguy a DA. Secondly i believe that if a person thinks that shooting an intruder is just dandy then that that person hasn't thought through all of the consequences to themselves and others or has a mental problem. Hawkeye i'm glad things turned out well in your case without knowing the circumstances i don't know whether your case applies to what is being discussed here. Let me make myself clear i think that using lethal forces in an otherwise unavoidable situation where death or greivous harm could be done to you or your famlily is entirely justified. I just don't think that shooting at a shape moving through your house in the middle of the night is a bright idea. Daphotoguy. I think that NV is probably not the way to go in your own house. They are bulky, take time to don and get ready, have serious FOV problems, could have problems if a light does come on and require the use of an IR laser or NV compatible reddot sight. Plus things just look different through NV so your neighbor could look like someone else. A light on the other hand, when properly used, can temporarily blind and disorientate the person, shows you whether they have a weapon in hand and positively IDs them before shooting. I wouldn't worry much about giving my position away because you'd probably navigate your own home by memory and wouldn't be turning on the light until you've decided that your life may be in danger and you may have to shoot someone. Personally at that point i want all of the light i can get and barring his buddy shooting at you from the outside through the window you're probably okay.
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 9:48:20 AM EDT
Family story...........know your target. My grandfather was awakened as in most of the scenario's mentioned. Heard motion in the bedroom (this was after all kids left,so only he and my grandmother were in the house. He slipped into the bedroom and saw an outline of a man crawling into the window......he said to stop, and get out but to not avail. Then he shot with his .38. (thank goodness he didn't have an AR!!!!). Well, he ended up shooting his drunk brother in the butt cheek. He knew his wife would kill him if he came home drunk, so he was sneaking into my grandfathers bedroom to sleep it off!!! Know what you shoot. Too many possibilities for mistakes.
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 9:55:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/12/2003 9:56:12 AM EDT by curt]
For about a year after i got the crap beat out of me when i made the mistake of sitting up bed while being robbed by a junkie, i slept with a knife under my pillow. One night there was a noise in my room and i went at a man shape in my room with my knife. Tore the sh*t out of my dress blues that were hanging on my locker! took care of that problem by taping a maglite to my knife [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 10:29:28 AM EDT
[LOLabove] I would have paid to see that! LOL!
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 11:09:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Hawkeye: Even if he has a partner, the partner will still have a hard time figuring out exactly where you are.
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I agree 100% with IDing target withh a light. However, Hawkeye, criminals will not be carefully trying to locate occupants after their buddy was shot. It would be random shots at shapes, walls, whatever. Those bullets have got to go somewhere! Please gather families in a "safe" room if you are feeling the need to investigate a break-in. And be sure your position assures some ballistic protection (bookcases work well). Don't forget the other folks in your home!
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 1:16:33 PM EDT
Just to clarify a few points a few things are different depending on where you live. In Texas the police cant chase intruders into your home. In Texas you can shoot poeople fleeing with your property if you have a reasonable expectation you cant get it back if they get away. (Neighbor taking your pushmower is not shootable but random guy with your flat pannel under his arm who is 1000 yards away is an OK shoot) We had a guy who was on PCP here in Houston force his way into a guys house and he was shot in killed. The guy said he was in fear of his life. He got off. Another guy in Texas was caught coming in the window because his GF was there the shooter was the dad and saw he was sneaking in. This guy was arrested becasue he didnt identify the person, was not in fear of his life and he was not stealing anything.
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 1:17:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Hot-Lead:
Originally Posted By Hawkeye: Even if he has a partner, the partner will still have a hard time figuring out exactly where you are.
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I agree 100% with IDing target withh a light. However, Hawkeye, criminals will not be carefully trying to locate occupants after their buddy was shot. It would be random shots at shapes, walls, whatever. Those bullets have got to go somewhere! Please gather families in a "safe" room if you are feeling the need to investigate a break-in. And be sure your position assures some ballistic protection (bookcases work well). Don't forget the other folks in your home!
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I'll disagree there, but thats another debate altogether. [:)]
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 2:25:29 PM EDT
What about those here who wear contact lenses? This thread is kinda weird in that last night was the second time ever that I have thought something was happening at the house. I was in the bathroom taking out contacts brushing teeth etc. when I heard something just outside my window in the driveway/front yard area. This is 1AM. I ducked outside for a second(unarmed) and 'looked' around. I realized I REALLY should have thought about this more before coming out. I wouldnt have been able to identify anybody because my vision without contacts is horrible. I used to have a pair of glasses nearby so at night I could watch TV or whatnot but I havent updated the lenses in forever.. plus I have no clue where they are. What do you guys with contacts do for this?(home defense)
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 2:38:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/12/2003 2:45:23 PM EDT by imposter]
Here is a good law Utah has:
76-2-405. Force in defense of habitation. (1) A person is justified in using force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other's unlawful entry into or attack upon his habitation; however, he is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury only if: (a) the entry is made or attempted in a violent and tumultuous manner, surreptitiously, or by stealth, and he reasonably believes that the entry is attempted or made for the purpose of assaulting or offering personal violence to any person, dwelling, or being in the habitation and he reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent the assault or offer of personal violence; or (b) he reasonably believes that the entry is made or attempted for the purpose of committing a felony in the habitation and that the force is necessary to prevent the commission of the felony. (2) [red]The person using force or deadly force in defense of habitation is presumed for the purpose of both civil and criminal cases to have acted reasonably and had a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or serious bodily injury if the entry or attempted entry is unlawful and is made or attempted by use of force, or in a violent and tumultuous manner, or surreptitiously or by stealth, or for the purpose of committing a felony.[/red]
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Break into a home here and it is open season.
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 3:27:03 PM EDT
I'd ask the person to identify themselves and then have them lay on the floor until the cops came, if they came at me..bang they're no longer capable of inducing injury..if they take off running then let them tell their friends that my house isn't the one to be robbing.
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 3:31:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By tivoli410: What do you guys with contacts do for this?(home defense)
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Well i got LASIK! Of course some may be squemish about having their cornea sliced and the underlying surface vaporized with a laser. I used to sleep in my soft lenses and whenever i was not using my contacts, cold or whatever, i always had my glasses on my nightstand. I suggest that you get some glasses, even those dorky buddy holly style are better than nothing, and start making it a habit to put them on even if you're just up for a minute to whiz. It should be automatic so that if their is a noise in the middle of the night you will find yourself with your glasses on without remembering putting them on. Violent knife weilding thugs aside its pretty nice to be able to see if your house is on fire or a tree just came through the roof or whatever.
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