When I watch on TV with all these dumb police shows I cant help but notice how the SWAT really does look like the SS. First they are all dressed in black, which isnt needed, it doesnt work as camouflage inside buildings or in urban areas at all. They carry German Sub-machine guns. They have a helmet that makes them look like a German soldiers.
Not to mention our Canadian version of your SWAT comes into buildings, rips everything appart while holding a MP5 to the back of your neck and leaves you with a bill and a mess to clean. I don't know how they could change, but as far as I can see all they need are some lightning bolts on those uniforms and they are set.

[img]http://www.ctv.es/USERS/apf/Poster.JPG[/img]

I think that assault troops of all nationalities look the same, regardless of if they call themselves "police" or not.

I agree with where you are going, but last time I brought up a militarization of the police thread, I got flamed badly.

Wow, did you learn all that just from TV?

You're a moron.

Sherm

Drift, look its already starting.

Hopefully I'm just the first of many.

Sherm

[b]You're a moron.

Sherm [/b]

can you be more specific? tell us WHY you think he's a moron.

Yeah, the police and the government are our enemies.
Not the terrorists who have plans in the works to kill us all.
Go hide.
We'll let you know when it's safe to come out from under your rock.

How does acting like nazi's stop terrorism?

It's not just some "SWAT" also Fed. Agencies have been known to do evil thug things.
This is not a generalisation,but it seems nowadays things are getting worse.
I have heard them being referred as "Storm Troopers" on many occasions.It seems that going on an "authorized" heavily armed rampage with issue SMG against citizens is enjoyable to SOME of these types.Emphasis on the word "SOME"
One of these days they might kick down the "wrong" door.
***NOT A THREAT!!! FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY***

Don't take this the wrong way.  I normally support the police, and do indeed think that they did a GREAT job in the events of late.

We are talking about the way that many "officers of the peace" look and act more like soldiers than soldiers sometimes do.  As freedom loving people, we should all take note of this behavior.

Don't turn this into one of those threads that turns a bit of criticisim into being 100% anti cop.

Comparing police SWAT teams with the folks who guarded and ran the Nazi concentration and extermination camps will get you flamed? What a surprise!! I mean, all you did was point out a few similarities, right?

Come on, are you serious? While they may be overzealous at times, and for sure there have been mistakes made and outright murders committed, trying to equate the two is just a troll move.

If you wanted a serious debate, it could have been started with a much less inflammatory post questioning the need for the black uniforms. How is it you didn't mention the fact that all US military personnel who wear a helmet wear the current PASGT helmet, with its distinctive "Fritz" coal-scuttle shape. Is our entire military the Waffen SS too?

[b]Freedom isn't free[/b]
Semper Fidelis
Jarhead out.
[img]http://www.inetnow.net/~kudzukid/enlemblem.gif[/img]

Well Sherm,

As I normally shy away from post's such as this, I'll make an exception on this one. I usually sit back and shake my head, wondering how the hell out of 100,000 sperm this one rushed past and conquered. Proving this pinhead is a moron is unnecessary, he's proved it by his post. I'm with ya on this one.

Barracuda

What do you suggest will stop terrorists.
Local militias? [:E]
The point is, just because you think that the color black, and certain helmets remind you of all of the Nazis (who you secretly think look really cool), doesn't mean that the actually ARE nazis.

Maybe they could wear something a little less SCAREY...Like bright colors, with some pretty little flowers.. Or maybe even something silky and soft...[rolleyes]
You may take this as a flame, but lets get real. These swat teams are not your worry..Some of you sit around and like to think that the government is after you..I would only worry about that if you are up to no good.. If I were as paranoid as some of you guys, I would dig a hole and hide......[peep]

Usually I avoid wasting the articulate response on trolls. If you need to ask why then you're a moron too.

Pick a topic that hasn't been done a few hundred times here.

I'm not saying they are nazi's, but they are implementing techniques that where created in Nazi Germany. The SS adopted the black color specifically because it inspired fear. You can't find any other reason why the SWAT would use it because in the field or in buildings how much is actually black?

WooHoo! Right on Bob!

Now that would be SSTHPECIAL! Maybe we could get that bald guy from the cable home decoration show to design something! Mmmmmm...People, am I the only one thinking [b]Ruffled Magenta Chenille????[/b] Instead of those clunky equipment belts that just emphasize the hips, imagine a nice sash...flowers down the back and mag pouches down the front!! [b]PRECIOUS!!![/B]
[:X] [}:D] [:X] [}:D] [:X] [}:D] [:X] [}:D]

The people wh believe this crap are so stupid.

Thank God there are adults.

Scarecrow is right with the color scheme.A bunch of black figures rushing into a room is enough to make most people go into temporary shock.But I guess I would wear black as well if doing something like that.And a gasmask....

With thome faaaaabulous new protective headgear from DKNY and matching accethories by Betsy Johnson.

I want this outfit to say "I'm here, and girlfriend, your in big trouble."

[b]Usually I avoid wasting the articulate response on trolls. If you need to ask why then you're a moron too.[/b]

ok, he's a moron because you say so. and apparently so am i.

thanks, sherm, that really explains things!

Why doesnt the swat wear blue to demonstrate the fact they are police? They are just trying to captivate the same thing the SS did, fear, in not only the enemy but everyone.

SWAT doesn't patrol in public, so it's moot. They go in directly to the enemy.
Do they scare you when you see them on TV?

Yah they scared me, as much as a jew in a concentration camp.

When was the last time you were in a concentration camp?

When was the last time you were Jewish?

Sherm

While I agree we need special response teams on most police forces, I also agree that our police are becoming military forces.

There is a fine line between military and police, but the most notable differences are their missions followed by their tactics and then their weapons.

It seems to me that SWAT/SRT teams are being used for just about everything anymore.  
The good old days of a uniformed police officer doing a "knock and serve" warrant are rapidly being replaced by men dressed in black with their identities masked busting in doors and storming private property.  It doesn't seem to matter why they are there, lets just use SWAT since they are the pro's... that seems to be the mindset.

Long gone are the days of a uniformed police officer walking down the street and talking with the people.  Police in all major cities now appear to have an "us vs. them" attitude regarding the public.  More and more it appears they are there to keep us in line with a heavy hand, not to be the public servants they really are.  

We're seeing M16's in patrol cars, training with military forces on military bases...  It's long been the rule that US military forces won't be used against US citizens... but now we're blurring the line between police and the military since they seem to share so many common threads these days.

I don't think there is some big conspiracy... but I do believe we've lost sight of what's acceptable and what's not regarding our freedom.  Our police are blindly moving towards militarization not thinking what the long term impact might be... or how it could easily get out of control.

During the Waco stand-off I saw video tape taken by BATF agents who were involved.  They were dressed in BDU's and armed like a regular Army soldier.  One guy was sitting in the back of a vehicle boasting to the camera how he was a "killing machine" and how he was going to walk through that compound and get some payback.  The cameraman was calling his buddy "killer" and laughing at his antics.  It was chilling.  That's something you expect from a 19 year old kid sitting in a bunker in Vietnam, that's not something you expect from a federal police agency, or local police.  This just illustrates the mental mindset that many SWAT types are adopting... they are playing soldier.

How about a little visual aid....
[img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/SPECTRE%2F575304%2Ejpg[/img]
[img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/SPECTRE%2F575219%2Ejpg[/img]
[img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/SPECTRE%2F5Z21572%2Ejpg[/img]
Personally, I think these next two are just great when shown together !!!!

[img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/SPECTRE%2F574609%2Ejpg[/img]
[img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/SPECTRE%2Fcoppic%2Ejpg[/img]

Flame on boys !!!
[img]www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/shootout.gif[/img]

Negative, they are enforcing civilian law. They are using military style tactics and utilizing a military style appearance to enhance perceived authority and ease of function.



I agree.



I'd agree there too. Oft times SRTs are being overused. It has become standard practice when anything appears amiss, cops pull back and call out the SRTs. But a beat cop is not at all equiped to safely serve high risk warrants. Teams with more specialized trainging are generally called for.



Au contraire mon frere. There is a HUGE trend in the LE community towards implementation of community policing. CPOP(Community POlice Officer Program) in NYC and POP (Problem Oriented Policing) are just two of several programs being implemented around the country. And with very positive results that show a real downturn in crime rates.

The M16(M-4 AR-15) in patrol vehicles is in response to actual incidents, and an affirmation that the shotgun has always (besides the psychological value of racking a round into the chamber) been a poor choice of police weaponry. I'd rather have an officer be able to deliver accurate sustained fire then popping of heavy recoiling, scattered rounds with a shotgun. You'd be surprised how often Military personnel are getting training from  civilian LE. Police and military share image in the media only. LE is not used to further military goal domestically. I don't see the blurred line.



I'll agree with the first half but I don't believe anyone's moving blindly. I feel that LE is more aware of their image than ever before. Invoking the "slippery slope" defense is kind of short sighted. There are plenty of checks and balances out there.



There were buckets of mistakes made there. I won't even touch Waco with a stick. But...

If you just saw four of your buddies wasted, you might not be in the right frame of mind either and may exercise some poor use of words in front of a camera.

Sherm

Actually most of the Waffen SS were used as an infantry and mechanized forces.  Only a minority of them were actually concentration prison guards. Not defending the Waffen SS that were prison guards because they were truly evil men, but a lot of them that fought on the front lines were very good soldiers. Once out in the field they did not usually were the black dress uniform, in fact they were one of the first large units to use personal camouflage effectively.

Maybe they choose the U.S. military style Kevlar because it is a good helmet and offers good protection around the neck area like the German standard helmet of WWII.

The wear black to intimidate the scumbags they usually go after (note there have been mistakes, but I believe that is the exception and not the rule).

They use German HK MP5s because they are the best. Wouldn't you want to use the best?

I guess we can blame the Ninjas for making the wearing of black popular.

No Slack!

SWAT teams do not always wear black.  In fact, they often choose blue, gray, or camo.  What does it really matter?  It is all about practicality.  

This whole SWAT dilemna has been argued on this site many times over.  I take a moderate approach.  
I agree SWAT is often used in situations when it may not be needed. But, it has been proven to save lives of both police officers and suspects.  Overwhelming force, in many cases eliminates any possibilty of a criminal even thinking about resisting, because it would be futile.  
If SWAT was truly a bunch of power-hungry, poorly trained, trigger happy  morons, politics would have done away with it years ago.  The fact is the liberal media only shows the public the very few instances when SWAT screws up.  
Comparing SWAT to the SS lacks any logic except the few coincidences mentioned.   Oh, and LE does often train military, not the other way around. I know from hearsay and personal experience.

wgunn, thanks for putting to words what I was trying to imply.  Originally, I didn't think the comparison was literal.

I think you missed the point of my comment.  Just because the police are enforcing "civilian" law doesn't make their tactics or mindset any different.  Hell, our military enforces "civilian" law in various countries.

How do you define a military?  How do you define a police force?  Isn't it ironic we call our response to the US drug problem the "war" on drugs?  Armored cars, tanks, M16's, [b]M60's[/b], even aircraft outfitted with weapons have been used in the past by various police departments.  I'm sorry, if the line isn't blurred for you, then I suspect you're on the other side of the "line" and therefore your opinion is biased.

SWAT/SRT teams are being over used.  Many situations formerly handled by beat cops are now being handled by SWAT.  More and more SWAT officers are being trained and subsequently employed by police departments.  

This is probably a piss poor example, but in Columbine the first police on the scene remained outside waiting for SWAT to respond.  Sure, I understand it was a scary situation that they weren't prepared for, but it was their duty to enter than building and make every effort to stop the violence.  But I'm sure their training called for them to set security and wait for SWAT... which in my opinion was wrong and possibly cost several kids their lives.  

In some cities every small time drug dealer they serve a warrant on requires a full deployment of SWAT.  Back in the day a uniformed officer with several of his buddies, or detectives, served the warrant.  Now days if there's any chance of violence, we'll just use SWAT.  Eventually we'll live to see the day where every cop is a SWAT officer and our cities will look like Belfast.

I've seen more cops walking the beat in Chicago, but that's not my point.  They still have the "us vs. them" attitude.  I usually say "hello" to the officers I pass on every street corner in the city, and rarely do I get a return greeting.

The few times I've been pulled over for speeding I've gone out of my way to be cordial yet without exception the officer is void of any personality, bordering on being rude.

It's my opinion that the police should interact more with the community, not just make a strong presence felt.  Cops standing on street corners acting all gruff only further serves to give the impression of living in a police state.

I never realized until now that I was part of the SS for tens years because my agency uniform happened to be black.

Obviously, we've all had differing experiences with police officers. When I was 19, I got jacked around by 3 Philadelphia cops for a while, had my car and person searched in the absence of anything even resembling probable cause, and was threatened with an asskicking just for being in a fairly bad neighborhood.

On the other hand, almost all the rest of my LEO interactions have been positive (except for those damned Air Force OSI bastards), even in cases where I ended up getting a ticket. A California Highway Patrol officer was instrumental in a buddy and I getting back to base within minutes of the midnight expiration of our leave papers. An Anaheim, CA police officer helped me push a lady's stalled car out of traffic and into a parking lot. I got a speeding ticket from a Plano, TX officer about two months ago, and he was polite and personable about the whole thing, and even explained to me that the residents of that street had called the chief complaining about speeders, which was the reason for the stepped-up enforcement. When I handed him my CHL, he asked where my carry piece was, and went on about his business without feeling the need to disarm me as the law allows.

A very good friend of mine is a SWAT officer in a small Arizona city, and has told me about a few of their callouts. The city he works for has a large gang population, and they are not afraid to fight it out or even shoot it out with the police. Still and all, his SWAT team doesn't get rolled out for every barking dog or loud stereo call, as some have exaggerated here. He has had no military training since joining the PD, and is an avid shooter, gun collector and Bill of Rights supporter.

Some folks are just painting with too broad a brush, and picking pretty bad metaphors to express themselves. My buddy Nick is no Waffen SS, and you'd be damned glad to have him on your side if some violent dirtbag was holed up in your house with your wife and kids as hostages.

An AR-15 in a patrol car for a regular beat cop?  Fine.  Makes perfect sense.  A M16 or G36 in the patrol car of a regular beat cop?  No FREAKING way.  Not only are they probably not trained for proper use of such weapons, there should never be a need for a beat cop to flip the switch to fullauto and start spraying in a populated area.  There is NEVER a reason for an M60 to be in a police arsenal, but there are.

SWAT cops doing entries certainly need burst guns.

You seem to imply the only thing that makes a military a "military force" is their mission.  I disagree.  It's more than "military objectives".  What is a military objective though?  Take that hill over there?  How about take that drug dealers house over there?  That sounds like a military objective to me.  No, it's more than mission or objectives.  It's more a combination of hardware and mindset coupled with a mission.  The concern is, with the proper hardware and training it's a small step for the mission to be ordered.  That's the fear of arming and training our police like soldiers.  It opens the door for abuses of power which we are seeing in place you want to forget about... like Ruby Ridge and Waco.

Again, militaries the world over are used for policing.  Does this make them police?  Nope, they make miserable police.  Mostly because their training and weapons are designed for broadsword tactics.  So to say the mission is the delineating factor by which we define police or military forces isn't really useful.  They both have been known to do similar things.

I disagree.  [:)]  I do agree police are cognizant of their "image" but my concern is they aren't focusing on the long term threat a militarized police force presents to freedom.  I doubt that even comes up in their planning sessions, and that's what I'm talking about.

You're right, tons of mistakes were made there and at Ruby Ridge.  Was anything learned?  I fear not.  I think the only thing these departments learned was that they would have to exercise more tact and be more crafty in the future.  Those involved haven't been disciplined and many still hold similar positions... the snipers from Ruby Ridge as an example.

I think the only exaggerating going on here is being done by you.  Who said SWAT is called out for every barking dog and loud stereo?  Care to quote the post which you claim was "exaggerated" on this thread?

Then it must be true everywhere then.  

How about this, Joe Hawes (a Navy SEAL) trains our local Porter County SWAT team in military small team (special ops) tactics.

I agree.  I don't agree with the SS comparison, I think it was off base.  But I was able to understand what he was really trying to convey.

Obviously I exaggerated, wgunn. No one said anything about dogs or stereos. We can nitpick each other's arguments all we want, but it comes down to you talking about your experiences and me talking about mine. Do you know anyone on a SWAT team? Have you ever talked to cops about what they do? Have you ever done a ride-along?

Here are a couple of your generalizations and exaggerations about SWAT:

That's not what I said, is it? I'm talking about my particular experiences with a SWAT officer that I know and talk to regularly, while most on here are harping on generalizations about SWAT officers they only hear about or see on TV.  



Is Joe Hawes an active duty SEAL, or a former SEAL who runs a school that the county sends their SWAT team to?



I understand what he was trying to convey too, but I think he picked a lousy way to do it. The metaphor he picked was supposed to inspire rational debate?? Not a chance.

Thank you.  But what it appears you're saying is that it's ok for you to exaggerate to defame me but if I call you on it you're saying I'm "nitpicking".  Nitpicking is slamming each other for punctuation, typing or spelling.  Saying I've posted that SWAT is being used for barking dogs is a purposeful misrepresentation intended to make me look stupid or out of touch with reality.

Yes, I know several police officers and I shoot with a number of them on my private firing range.  Two of them are Porter County SWAT officers and another guy I hang out with is the SEAL to who trains them.

Not a "generalization" nor an "exaggeration" by any stretch of the imagination.  I'm sorry, but you either don't know what the words mean or you're purposely being difficult and argumentative.

It's a [b]fact[/b] that SWAT officers are being used for all sorts of things formerly handled by uniformed police officers.  Hell, many SWAT cops will tell you that.  Just because you don't realize this doesn't mean it's an exaggeration.



Again, this is a [b]fact[/b], at least in my neck of the woods.  What generalization is being made here?  The [b]only[/b] thing which isn't based in fact in this comment is my prediction of the possible future, hence my comment about Belfast.  This is an extrapolation, not and "exaggeration" of where the current trend could lead.  

You're the one "nitpicking", or should I say fabricating and reading into things.  You're examples of my "exaggerations" and "generalizations" were horrible at best.

Gotta jump in here folks. Look at the username- 11H1P, or Infantry, TOW (HAW) crewman, Sub-NCO (E4)Parachutist. My job was to BREAK and KILL shit. Some of our time was spent firing our TOW systems, but as far as the vast majority of training, it was straight Infantry/Airborne assault. We walked through MANY MOUT and field tactical training exercises- and ALWAYS we double-tapped EVERYTHING that popped up in front of us. WHY? 2 logical reasons- you don't reduce your force unnecessarily while accomplishing the mission, and the dead don't need guards to control them or keep them from shooting you as you pass. THE EXCEPTION is when the enemy CLEARLY surrenders. Period. (See Desert Storm). MPs and Civilian LEs are for police functions. I am one (Infantry/Soldier), and am close friends with several of the other (SWAT/LE). World of difference, like night & day.

Don Carter
D Co. 2/505 P.I.R.
82d ABN Div. 1986-90, about to be again

Joe is a former Seal (class of '77 I believe).  He retired several years ago and works for a local company who trains local PD's.

When Joe's not training police he is acting as a military consultant in Hollywood.  He's actually in the movies Con Air and The Rock.  He's one of the SEAL's who get's killed in the shower room scene in The Rock.  

I totally agree.  But I'm not him, nor did I make any references to Nazi's or SS troops.  To lambaste me because of someone else's comments isn't fair.  My comments have been factual and quite rational.  I rarely go off half-cocked or make "generalizations".

Aside from high-risk warrants, and I'll admit that the definition of "high-risk" seems to be very elastic these days, what do you see SWAT officers doing that regular patrol officers ought to be doing?



Actually, I was being sarcastic about barking dogs and loud stereos, but I thought that was obvious. I guess I should have said so.



In your opinion. We all hear about it when a SWAT callout goes bad, as in the cluster here in Texas recently where everyone opened up on full auto, then blamed the resident for starting the firefight that was started by a SWAT cop's ND. But just like the millions of times a year that CHL holders use their carry piece legitimately, you don't hear about those, only the ones where the guy's drunk and waves his pistol around in a bar parking lot, making us all look bad.

Then I don't see a problem if a private citizen, regardless of his former military affiliation, acts as a paid trainer of the cops. I'm firmly against the cops going to the SEAL Teams/SFOD-D/Force Recon for their training. Maybe that's drawing too fine a distinction, but setting up a direct police/military relationship like that is where I draw the line.






I wasn't accusing you of making reference to Nazis or SS. My statement was in regards to the original poster, whom you jumped in to defend.

That's just it, you hit the proverbial nail on the head.  It seems that the threshold for "high-risk" is constantly changing, sometimes setting the hurdle incredibly low.  Locally SWAT has been used to do knock-and-serve warrants on small time drug dealers.  These guys could have EASILY been picked up on their way to the grocery store or while out mowing their lawn by detectives or uniformed police.  Having SWAT surround the house and storm the place was, and is, totally uncalled for.  Even the local papers were questioning it.

I also cited the Columbine shooting case.  The first officers to respond should have entered the school.  But I'm sure they were hampered by protocol... they waited for SWAT to arrive.  A tragic mistake that I hope departments learned from.  Again, policing is a dangerous occupation.  Uniformed police are expected (at least by me) to put themselves in harms way to protect civilians, not to call out and wait for SWAT every time some maniac starts shooting a gun.

Actually your comments were posted in a quite literal context, it's not even close to being obvious you were being sarcastic.  If you were truly trying to be sarcastic, it helps to use visual aids to denote the sarcasim such as: [:P] or [;)].

I think it's pretty clear that my "opinion" is pretty much spot on.

I don't recall the examples you posted of my "exaggerations" dealing with call's that went bad.  I don't know where this is coming from, but you're right.  It's human nature to focus on the negative and forget the positive.  I've never said I didn't support the police or their efforts.  I admire most police officers for the service they provide, it's a very challenging commitment they've taken on.

I'm only discussing the potential for abuse should a militarization of our police forces continue.  I'm not claiming that a broad abuse of power is taking place, nor am I a conspiracy freak.  I'm just saying we need to keep a mindful watch over our actions and make sure the measures we take to preserve the peace don't conflict with our freedom or the safety checks our founding fathers put in place.

[img]http://www.locksley.com/6696/nazi.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.cityoforange.org/Police/patrol/Swat2.jpg[/img]

....MIRROR IMAGE....

I don't have a problem with Joe doing what he's doing per se, it's the [b]type[/b] of weapons and training some SWAT teams are seeking, regardless of the source.

But that line you've drawn gets crossed every day.  I know this from first hand experience.  I personally served as a Nuclear Weapons Security Guard (Security Forces) at NSB Bangor for the Trident program during the late 80's and early 90's.  We (Marines) frequently trained with Seattle SWAT on many occasions.  I also know that LAPD SWAT has in the past used military facilities and trained with several elite military organizations including the SEALs.

I also know that the BATF lied to obtain military hardware and forces during the Waco debauchery.  They claimed Koresh was a known drug dealer, thereby invoking "drug war" policies allowing them to gain access to tanks, special forces and other military resources.  Clearly an abuse of power, which is my primary concern.

There you go again.  That's not even close to being true.  Every one of my comments have been made independently of the original posters comments.  I haven't referenced a single thing in his post nor have I endorsed anything in that post.

If you're being sarcastic again it's not plainly obvious.  To me it looks like you're making things up again.

The Waffen-SS didn't guard or run concentration camps. Seperate SS units did that.

Well, we are certainly not a free country. And our system has pretty much devolved into a form of fascism. Certainly, some of our constitutional protections remain more or less intact (but not all of them!), and it is very unlikely that we will develop the worst traits of the Nazis. Perhaps a comparison to Italian or Spanish fascists is more approriate, with some socialist-style feel-good concepts thrown in for good measure.

My guess is that the people who run the central police agencies are pretty much the same from country to country. This is true of the US, the Soviet Union, and Nazi Germany. What differs is what powers they have, and in this country we have seen a steady increase in their powers.