wgunn, your local police may be using the SWAT team for more and more tasks, but I don't see that happening here around Dallas. They have no problem rolling out a lot of uniformed officers, but SWAT doesn't get a lot of business when it comes to regular warrant service. Big city PDs sometimes have a warrant squad for that, and maybe the smaller PDs try to emulate that, using SWAT guys they already have in the budget. Out here you never see SWAT in action unless someone is already shooting when 911 gets the call. Even in California, you'd see a lot of squad cars responding without, or at least before, SWAT came out to play.

The fact that uniformed patrol officers stood around for 45 minutes at Columbine HS waiting for SWAT is a travesty. That and the North Hollywood bank shootout has prompted a lot of departments to replace the shotguns in squad cars with AR15s. The LAPD was supposed to get a bunch of M16A1s converted from select fire to semi-auto only. I don't know if this happened or not, but do you view that as a step in the right direction of patrol officers having the tools to do what you believe SWAT is encroaching on?

I'm not making anything up. The original place my reference to "painting with a broad brush" statement appeared was in a general post not quoting or specifically resonding to anyone but the original poster.

I took the following to be a defense of the logic of the original post:



I took that statement to mean that you agreed with his meaning, just not the way he expressed it. Is this not the case?

Oh, you're right. The Waffen-SS were the ones who burned down the Warsaw Ghetto and killed or shipped off to be killed everyone in it. My mistake.

And you and I agree 100% on that.

It's a step in the right direction.  I'm all for police having the necessary tools to competently execute their duties.  Police need carbines, and you're right... the shotgun is a poor police weapon.  

As I stated before, I'm totally against the use of other military weapons by [b]any[/b] SWAT team.  Things like M60's have ABSOLUTELY no practical application in the hands of police.

As a side note:  I was visiting DS Arms a couple of years ago and one of the guys in back brought out a fullauto FAL "sniper" rifle which they custom built for a department.  The department actually specified that their "sniper" rifle have fullauto.  Even the guys at DS Arms thought this was hysterical, but they built it anyway.  I don't recall the department (it wasn't a local one) that ordered it or I would gladly post it... so citizens in that town could GET OUT.  [:)]  Seriously though, totally uncalled for and completely silly... but dangerous too boot.

No Waffen-SS units served as concentration camp prision guards. The only fighting unit that served as concentration camp guards was the Totenkopf-SS (the Death's Head Division).

Various non-combat SS units worked in the concentration camps as well.



A lot of the Waffen-SS soldiers were ethnic (as opposed to nationalized) Germans. The only way they could serve Germany in a military capacity was to join the Waffen-SS, since the German army was not allowed to recruit them. Consequently, the SS was not limited to Nazi fanatics. However, ethnic Germans, and usually the various non-German SS men, were actually often more fanatic than nationalized Germans. Danish and Norwegian SS units fought with great determination against the Soviets, despite the fact that their countries were not threatened by them.



Their camo was similar to that used by the USMC in the Pacific. This pattern wasn't used by US forces in the European theater because it would be easy to confuse with the SS pattern.

A full-auto sniper rifle...

"But this one goes to eleven..."

I shudder to think what application the department in question thinks they have for a full-auto sniper rifle.

The mindsets of LE vs. military is important. But look at the tasks at hand for each entity. Military room clearing consists of frags in the door, followed by a team sweeping the room for living targets and eliminating resistance. LE room clearing is flash bangs, entry and rapid visual target interrogation. This is much more mentally taxing and difficult to do. The end goal of a military unit is to kill armed resistors. The LE goal is to bring them out alive and hopefully unharmed. So the mindset are completely different.  



Definitions are easy, that's dictionary work. The military and LE each have seperate and distinct responsibilities and places in the country and the world. I can't help what the popular vernacular for the battle, war, or fight against cancer is this week. I believe that is more a comment on our society's leanings and desensitized attitude towards violence as a whole. Those terms do serve to galvanize, and garner support for many causes. Drugs, breast cancer, DWI and other maladies kill many people and if someone in one of those agancies choses to term it the War on Smoking what can we really do? It's a politicol term, really.

I will agree with you that a lot of the hardware that SWAT has, they shouldn't. An M-60 on a cop tank is just plain silly. But them breaking out the heavy toys and using them is certainly a rarity in today's society. Although when they do, it certainly makes the TV and leads to the perception that it's happening more than it really does.

Ahhh, which side am I on? And is my visualization of the line blurred by my current employment? Good questions. I'm a paramedic(civilian employee) for a police department. I happen to be on staff at the Police Academy and teach the EMT curriculum, and a few other topics to cops. I'm also a active reservist. To me, the line between military and LE seems very well defined. I know the responsibilties of each and don't see where they cross. LE does their thing and the Mil does their's.

I'll agree that there is a very pervasisve attitude of "us vs. them" in the LE community. But that is not entirely LE's fault. A media that is more than willing to demonize cops for ratings, sue happy lawyers, and exagerrated complaints are commonplace. NYC LEO's have suffered a small number of incidents where officers were found guilty of some pretty bad things. But they were destroyed as a whole in the communities by "reputable" community leaders and the media.

Is it something that should change? Certainly. But it's not entirely their fault.

Sherm

It means exactly what is says; I understand what he was trying to convey.  No need to read into it.  If I'm not mistaken my comments mention nothing about either agreeing with him or disagreeing with him.  Why you would assume my comments automatically mean I'm agreeing with him escapes me.  Perhaps you hold me in such low regard you always assume the worst?    I gave little thought to the original post, instead I went off on my own tangent.

So he thinks the helmets of the Nazi regime resemble our current issue Kevlar, great.  Not much to disagree with there. It's an observation which actually has some basis in fact.  Not much of an issue to me since I know the design is superior to other helmet designs, offering protection for the back of the neck.  I say use it.

So the Canadian government shoots up houses according to him then sticks the owners with the bill... great, I have no comment since I'm not a Canadian nor do I take an interest in their internal issues.  So I dismiss this comment because it's of little interest to me.  

So his observation that police dressed in black have little tactical value... humm, that could be argued.  I personally opt for uniformed police and I would prefer SWAT officers wore something more "police" like in nature.  Perhaps a light blue or gray jumpsuit with a badge prominently displayed, like a regular uniformed officer.  But then I guess some folks would say they look like UN troopers... which would open up a whole other can of worms.  Really a moot point.

So what are you accusing me of agreeing with or jumping to the defense of?  I don't recall taking up the issue of black uniforms, helmets or their fleeing resemblance to the Nazi uniform and I have no comment on the Canadian issue.

The primary actors in this were the police SS (Polizei-SS) units, not the Waffen-SS. During the Warsaw uprising, German Army units were used as well. Perhaps under those circumstances, Waffen-SS was also used, I really don't know (the accounts I've seen are from the Jewish perspective, and don't give much info on the German order of battle).

Since the W-SS was highly motorized and busy fighting the Soviets, pulling them off the line to deal with Jews in Warsaw would have been strange indeed, but if any such units were resting in the area I assume they would be called in.

Who cares, they were all evil assholes, and they LOST!

Gray would be a better choice tactically compared to black. Certainly, black is chosen to imtimidate.

Really, the biggest issues are not how they dress, but what missions they are called on to do, and what powers they have. Asset forfiture should be ended right now, as should the "war of drugs".  At least one American has been killed because his ranch looked like a good piece of real estate to law enforcement.

Nope, gotta disagree with you again.  I'm a former military nuclear weapons security guard and we too used flash-bangs and swept rooms for non-combatants.  Just like Embassy guards, our duties were to protect the lives of other military personnel and in our case civilian scientists.

One difference, if a weapon was about to be stolen we would shoot anyone we had to - to prevent it.  But we had to be DAMN certain there was no other option before shooting friendly's.

I think we're allowing ourselves to get derailed.  I could careless about definitions.  I've been trying to focus on tactics, mission and hardware.  I'm trying to show you where the possibility for abuse exists, and also how the safety valves established by our own government are being encroached upon by militarizing our police forces.  I've outlined those issues and the specific concerns that I have elsewhere in this thread.  I won't type them again, instead I'll allow you to pick them out by scanning back.

What I think you're missing here is when one department does it others will follow their lead.  More than one M60 exists in inventory of police departments across our country.  And the notion that just because it happened once but is a rarity doesn't really jive... it happened once already and no one stopped it or otherwise complained about it!  It most certainly will happen again.  You have to agree that it will only become more frequent once it starts unless someone checks it.

So in your view there isn't a militarization of police forces across the country.   Does anyone else share this view?  I think it's painfully obvious with each passing year the distinction between the two becomes increasingly blurred.  How many more Waco's or Ruby Ridges must take place before we realize this?  How many more tanks rolling through city streets with M60's mounted and clearly marked "POLICE" do we have to see before we realize what's happening?

I'll agree that there is a very pervasisve attitude of "us vs. them" in the LE community. But that is not entirely LE's fault.

View Quote

Very true.  But it's not so much who's fault it is that this situation is so pervasive but who's fault is it that it's allowed to continue?  Only the police can change their demeanor, and it's their responsibility to move closer to those they serve, not the other way around.

Resting in the area? I don't think so. Why do people want to maintain this image of the Waffen SS as some kind of heroes not tarnished by the Final Solution?

From a quick Google search on "waffen-ss":

[url]http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/holocaust/h-warsaw.htm[/url]

"On Monday, April 19, 1943, the Jewish feast of Passover, over 2000 Waffen SS soldiers under the command of SS General Jürgen Stroop attacked with tanks, artillery and flame throwers."

Many Waffen-SS men, if not most, were simply soldiers.

And aside from anti-semitism, I suspect that the people who are in our police organizations are actually quite a bit like the ones who were in theirs. The main difference is in our Constitutional restrictions and the fact that our federal system with seperate branches of government works to limit government power. As our Constitution and our restictions on government power are eroded, our sytem will become more and more fascist.

What Scarecrow [b]stated[/b] about the similarities between the Waffen-SS and SWAT cops:

--Similar helmets
--Black uniforms
--German SMGs
--"all they need are some lightning bolts on those uniforms and they are set."

What he seemed to be trying to [b]convey[/b] by those statements was that there was very little difference between the two in any respect.

All you agree with is his statements, but not the implication he was trying to make by stating them?

JA, zimply zoldiers, ud zey ver only followink orders. What were they? The kinder, gentler SS? %20 percent less lethal than your average Nazi unit? They were above wartime atrocities? Maybe the gestapo were just like cops here too. ONly without the black uniforms, jackboots, swastikas, and brutal efficiency when it came to ferreting out "enemies" and killing them.

Equating our police force with theirs is one of the most ludicrous assertions I've heard in a long time. Further asserting that we aren't policied in a style similarly to WWII era Deutcheland thanks to some constitutional restraints and governmantally structural differences is even more ridiculous. Different time, different people.

Sherm

Stroop was actually a Polizei-SS leader. He had something like 2090 men during the Warsaw uprising, and it turns out that about half of them were Waffen-SS. These may have actually been the "German Army" units I mentioned before, the result of a bad translation from German.

Your source seems to be making the mistake of assuming that [i]all[/i] SS are [i]Waffen-SS[/i]. I'm still inclined to believe that these Waffen-SS were pulled in to deal with the "emergency" of the uprising from nearby units. You don't waste combat units doing police work.

Most Waffen-SS units did follow the
Führer Order to murder Soviet political commissionars. Many ruthlessly excecuted partisans or suspected partisans, and a few murdered British, Canadian, and American soldiers. But few would have been directly involved in the Final Solution. Even supressing the Warsaw uprising was tangental to the Final Solution, although no doubt they did it ruthlessly. It would have been similar to their murder of partisians, except on a larger scale.

Given our willingness to turn on whatever group represents the latest threat, I tend to believe that we are not all that different from them.

And this, despite our advantage of hindsight.

If we turned on the group we perceived to be the latest threat Nazi style, we'd have burned every Arab owned business, taken their assets, burned their mosques and put them into concentration camps minus the gold fillings, glasses and shoes! Not to mention human hair pillows, and arab skin lamps and ovens.

Once again, poor analogy.

The comparison is inflammatory and unfair to those who lay it on the line for us.
However, I think Wgunn is correct.  Freedom loving people in this country should be concerned about the militarization of Police.

How many times have you heard the term; "civilians and police"  as if there is a difference.  Call me old fashioned, but I'm ready for the police to resume the traditional role.  
To serve and protect.

I have much more respect for those in the US Armed Forces than Door Kickers.

Do you know how to stop the popularity of SWAT team volunteering?

Put the SWAT guys up against someone with the same or more firepower, poised, weapons in hand waiting on the other side of that door.

SWAT guys just want to be on the winning team all the time. They are adrenaline addicts.  What other incentive is there?  It's definately not money or good health.  Maybe the motivation is playing with guns........kind of absurd for such a responsible position.

Had to get it in before the horse is totally dead.

Doug  

To A certain extent the, "They are just following orders." Does hold water. They don't go to a house they haven't been ordered to.  It is protocol and ethics and legislation that is doing this along with those interpreting it.  I wouldn't worry about these guys turning on US. MOst of them think the same way you and I do. I don't care if they are trained by the military, what I do care about is that they draw a line between Citizens, Druggers which is what has led to this upgrade in their tactics and weapons.  What percentage of crimes involving semi-automatic weapons (besides pistols) are drug related??  I am not saying the gun is at fault what I am saying is that if the druggers carried pee shooters the police wouldn't need Full Automatic weapons. The gun part just serves a platform to put statistics on.  So maybe the better question is this? What percentage of SWAT team insertions are drug related????  I think this drug problem is larger than anyone realizes, I think that it is bigger than anyone lets on. Regardless of what any administration seems to say about reducing it.  Drug related activities are dangerous. In fact I was talking to an ex officer of Houston who said that everyone has to be rotated every two years because by that time all the cops have been bought.  They have families, they don't want to die and I suspect organized crime is deeper in this drug thing then anyone can imagine.  Furthermore the drug trade is a form of Organized crime with or without moffia type families involved.  This is the problem in my estimation.  THE POLICE HAVE BEEN GIVEN A MISSION THEY CANT WIN!!!!! They are trying their best , but they can't do it.  And if the Current administration wants to be smart about it they should classify drug dealers and runners terrorists as well.  They have the border closed now is the time to get rid of the cocaine and the ICE and the heroine and everything else that comes into this country.

My .02 worth.

Ben

In my opinion the drug crusade is a fabricated problem.  If properly handled it wouldn't be a problem at all.  I'm not sure why our government does such things... but the prohibition in the 20's and 30's was just a ludicrous and gave rise to uber-criminals then just as is has in this era.  How did they bring the moonshine cartels down?  They legalized alcohol and poof, the problem dissipated.  Unfortunately the damage was already done, the money the criminals made found its way into other venues/markets and crime continued.  So the damage might be permanent at this point due to mis-handling going back to the 70's... but it's better late than never.

Legalize drugs and tax the hell out of it.  Hell, alcohol is about as mind altering as several of the more popular illegal substances on the market but we allow it to be sold.  Our drug war is hypocritical and a HUGE waste of time and money.  Not to mention we use it as an excuse to pass more and more laws which further encroach on our freedoms.  Hell, we probably wouldn't have the NFA if it weren't for prohibition.

I guess what I am trying to say is this.

THE POLICE ARE INVOLVED IN VIETNAM!!! WITHIN OUR OWN BORDERS!!!THEY CANT WIN!!! THEY ARE HAMSTRUNG AND HOGTIED!!!!THEY HAVE TO ENFORCE CIVILIAN LAW (WHICH ISN"T A BAD THING AND NEEDS TO BE MAINTAINED) BUT THEY ARE ALSO HAVING TO DEAL WITH DRUG RELATED ACTIVITIES AND BEING BEATEN BADLY!!!!THEY ARE KNOWN IN THEIR COMMUNITIES/AND THE DRUGGERS KNOW THEM THEY CAN'T LEAVE THEY CAN'T HIDE AND THEY CAN'T REALLY FIGHT.  THEY HAVE BEEN GIVEN AN ORDER BY PRESIDENTS PAST AND THEY ARE STRUGGLYING MIGHTILY TO FULLFILL IT BUT THEY CAN'T.  THEIR SAFETY AND THAT OF THEIR FAMILIES IS IN DANGER.  THEY CAN'T SPEAK AND MAKE FRIENDS AS EASILY ON THE STREET BECAUSE THE STREET HAS NO MORALS. SOMEONE CAN BE THIS FRIENDS OF A COP TODAY AND SQUEL ON HIM TOMMORROW IN EXCHANGE FOR FREE DOPE. I FEEL SORRY FOR THEM, I REALLY DO. BUT I FIRMLY BELEIVE THEY HAVE AN IMPOSSIBLE MISSION!!!! NO WONDER THEY ARE NOT FRIENDLY TO EVERYONE.  I my place of business I serve 2 detectives and 3 police officers. They are as friendly as can be.  I am getting to know all the cops and all the firefighters. We have a peaceful town. But our cops have a very good reputation.  THEY TRY SO HARD TO KEEP UNWANTEDS OUT. AND THUS FAR THROUGH THE YEARS HAVE SUCCEEDED. BUT IF YOU ARE TRYING TO ENFORCE LAW IN AN INNER CITY WITH LOTS OF GANGS DRUGS VIOLENCE THEN YOU MAY WELL BE UP THE CREEK.  GANGS MEAN REPRISALS,DRUGS MEANS MONEY TO THOSE WHO SELL AND I MEAN LOTS OF IT, JUST WHAT IT TAKES TO ARM YOUR GANGS WITH LOTS OF COOL WEAPONS FROM THE BLACK MARKET, AND VIOLENCE TO KEEP RIVAL GANGS IN CHECK AND OFFICERS OF THE LAW. IT IS LIKE OPERATING IN AFGHANISTAN ALREADY. ACCEPT YOUR ARE LIVING A NIGHTMARE SCENARIO DAY IN AND DAY OUT. THESE GUYS HAVE TO HAVE IT BAD AS HELL IF YOU ASK ME.

Ben

It may be a fabricated problem. But the problem is there in the current form. With all the issues I have already brought up and more.
Perhaps drugs should be legalized. But, right now COPS/GANGS/DRUGS are in a vicious struggle and the COPS are loosing.

Ben

IIRC the Nazis took the American way of concentrating people in to large groups and relocating them from what our forefathers did to the American Indians.

Tactics are just that Tactics. To paraphrase David Richards: These people are not a threat to you, if they were you'd already be dead.

Blood doesn't stain black as easily so the BG doesn't know if they hit them, it's also a slimming color. [thinking]