Your analogy fails in the first line. It should say your village has a history of terrorism. Your uncle died when he hijacked a plane and was shot by CT troops. Your grandfather gave money to finace attacks on Olympic atheletes. Your grandmother recruited the neighbor kids to be car bombers after she cooked up homemade plastique in her kitchen.

Eveyone in your village believes that if they kill people of other religons they can "earn" their way into heaven. If they die killing the enemy the enemy they automatically go to heaven.

Then out of the blue a missile hits your village.........

To the point, the Arabic nations are hateful of each other, with a religion that sanctions indiscriminate killing of anyone considered an "infidel".  They only tolerate the Palestinians because they have a "legitimate" reason to kill Israeli's [NOTE:  I use the term "legitimate" to infer that the world sympethizes with them, not to infer that they have a justifiable reason].  They need disproportionately large armies to defend themselves against each other.  Essentially, they are a tribal culture, seeking to advance their tribe at the expense of others, especially Israel and the US (or any non-muslim nation).

It appears that from Egypt to Afghanistan there is celebration that Americans have died, and support for those who committed the action.  The fact that there are statements from Arabic leaders who are publicly condemning these acts means nothing.  We are experiencing what Israel experiences every time Yassar Arafat lies about how he feels when a suicide bomber kills Israeli's.  These politically motivated lies, spawned by religiously justified murders, show the nature of our dilemma.  We cannot believe them.  We cannot trust them.  Their culture is uncivilized, unjust, unmerciful, intolerant, and dangerous to all who love peace, justice, and truth.  They are part of a cultural/religious system which bears no moral similarity to Judaism or Christianity.  The problem is that we cannot readily distinguish between those who commit these murders, those who harbor the murderers, and those who pretend to agree with the murders to save their own lives.  

I am reminded of a scene from the movie "Walking Tall".  During his recovery from an attempt on his life, the sherriff recieves many gifts of alcohol, tobacco, etc., with sympathy cards, many of which were sent by the same people who intended to kill him.  He realizes that they are just trying to deflect his future retaliation, and upon recovery he attacks their criminal activity with a vengence.  Note that he doesn't focus his energy on killing them, but on their criminal activities.

We are not to believe the Arabs who tell us that they regret this incident.  The Taliban and Yassar Arafat are not representing the truth or the opinion of their peoples.  

We should attack terrorism without discrimination, and devestate those who harbor terrorists.  I would fully support a multi-national assault on the middle east.  They are bad neighbors, who don't know how to live in peace.  The rest of the world should disarm them, and divide them up into police states.  Their children should be deported to civilized countries for re-education.  And their oil reserves should be supplied free of charge to pay for the expense of our disciplinary measures.

(CONTINUED)

(continuation)

Like a good Dad, we (Western Civilization) need to discipline them.  Unfortunately this would be excessively costly in terms of lives lost, military and financial resources, etc..  We will probably have to settle for a level of indiscriminate killing.

The world is not as it should be.  Our rejection of the true God, and our love for that which serves our personal and selfish interests, has led to great injustice and sorrow throughout man's history.  Fortunately for us, we have a government which intends on using the sword to protect us.  Unfortunately for "them" (whoever that is), their religion and their governments do not value the lives of it's citizens enough to restrict terrorist activity.  I am sorrowful for the lives that were lost yesterday.  I am not happy about the lives that will be lost as America engages in the activity of protecting it's citizens, but it is the price that will rightly be paid for this attack on humanity.

Richardson

Actually, we are both right.The entire race of Arabs cannot be categorized as ENTIRELY peace loving, or ENTIRELY wacked out Jihad nut cases.

MY point is this - let's make sure we vaporize the RIGHT bunch of towel heads, not just the most available towel head.


Some of these "towel heads" are really little different than us. And some of them are PURE evil.

I think tho' your premise is off base. Yes the Arab world doesn't like Israel and we support Israel.

This is a cultural, religous clash. Somewhere, somehow many people in that part of the world feel it is ok to hate based on religous reasons. Not only can that be the basis for thier hate but it makes their hate acceptable. I don't think we'll ever be loved in that part of the world, no matter what we do. There will always, always, ALWAYS, be something we did that will mak it ok in thier minds to hate us.

When the going get's tough Britian and Israel ALWAYS stand by us. Who else has done that?

I mean we look at our foreign policy, and take a realistic look at what supporting Israel will mean for our future, and if we decide to keep supporting Israel, that we arm our cities like fricken Moscow on May Day.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that the Arabs could "incinerate" Israel. If they could, not aid from us would stop that, and they would have already done it.

Isrealies and Arabs have been fighting for thousands of years. They will be fighting till Jesus Christ returns. NOTHING we do will end the fighting.

We just need to decide how many dead civilians we want to see on US shores. If yesterday's body count was enough, then we need to think seriously about what we are doing.

And yes, for my money, we get OUT of the Middle East. Arabs will be MORE than happy to sell us oil at CHEAP prices, cuz tehy will NEED the money. And even if they don't, we've got enuf oil in ALaska (once we throw the eco-terrorists out on THEIR ears) to last us indefinitely (I have what I consider reliable sources that assure me of this)

Arabs have never done anything remotely good for the planet. If the whole place were NUKED I would never skip a beat.

"standing by us" - Is that what Israel was doing when it torched the USS  Liberty with napalm for four hours straight in the Mediterranean, killing 96 American sailors, without so much as an apology, to my knowledge????

Israel and the US have a synergistic relationship. When we need intel in that part of the world who do we go to?? Israel. Can we trust any other countries there?? NO. If we LOSE Israel we lose our eyes and ears in that part of the world.

During Desert Strom when So Damn Insane started lobbing missiles at Israel did they do a bunch of bellyaching about "we are paying the price for supporting the US"?? No they asked for Patriot missiles. Wonder how much intel the interpreted for us, so that war went so smooth.

Yes we pay a price for supporting them, and we get more benefits by supporting them.

Also how many US citizens are Jewish?? They certainly have a say in who we support as a country.

G-man, I have no doubt that our support of Israel makes us less likable by Israels neighbors.

I don't think that if Israel fell into the sea  tommorrow it would make any difference. We will never be liked in that part of the world with or without Israel. So if the Arabs will hate us anyway I would rather they hate us and we have an ally in that section of th world. The alternative is that they hate us and we have no allies there. No bases to assist us. No intel gathered for us.

Maynard -

What you may not realize is that we have been supporting BOTH the Arabs and the Jews.

The Shah of Iran owed his existence to us, our military, our advisors, and US Corporate $$$ flowing into his country. Other examples of propping up include, if memory serves, the support of even Saddam Hussein in EARLY days of his reign.

Here's my plan -

Let's get COMPLETELY out of teh Middle East, and see if Arab hatred of America ends.

I suspect it will.

If it doesn't, we go over there and exterminate them.

But to hold them ALL as an evil race incapable of any good, without us FIRST STOPPING from supporting their enemy, and seeing if their attitude doesn't change, is simply madness.

OLY -

That's a silly question.

Saddam Insane's lobbing missiles at Israel had nothing to do with Israel supporting the US. It had to do with Israel  being at war with the Saddam Insane.

And I will maintain that Israel has gotten FAR more out of this relationship that we have. I even heard yesterday several intel experts say that Israel had BETTER open up their intel to us on this one.

And my WHOLE point is this - should we decide to write these Arabs off as insane, we will learn NOTHING from this incident. And it will be repeated again and again. UNLESS we are willing to REALLY look at the facts here.

There is no excuse for this,

so save the "we deserve it because we support Israel" crap.  Whether we could have avoided this by staying out of Mid East politics or not is totally irrelevant at this point.  Terrorist killed many innocent civilians who have nothing to do with thier plight.  Palestinians were partying in the streets over the death of our people.  The sooner they are wiped from the face of the earth the better for the global community.  The depth of hatred they are teaching their children will never be undone.  They will always be a threat to innocent people.  They are pissed at Israelis' & Americans today, but what nationality would bare the brunt of their hatred next?

The only reason the Israelis' haven't wiped them out to date is because of American restraint.  Thanks for the condolences Arafat, but you guys are on your own now.  

Good luck.

Which is the equivalent of us dumping gasoline on the fire for the last 50 years.



I would have had us walk away from THE ENTIRE MIDDLE EAST cuz it ain't our business.

You keep painting me as wanting to abandon Israel ONLY when you've already agreed with the fact that we've helped everyone over there. This is dishonest on your part. I have AGAIN AND AGAIN said I want to treat them all equally. And I want to quit dumpinmg fuel on the fire.

Israel wansn't so weak while it as killing our US sailors on the USS Liberty. An act for which they ahve NEVER apologized.

I think this conversation is over. If you want to charachterize me as a selfish, self-centered, amoral, fair weather, chicken, of questionable charachter, go ahead. Its a free country, and I'm sure putting me down makes you feel better about yourself.

A land belongs to those ones that have their cultural roots in it and to those ones that take care of the land.

MAYBE Palestinians (I remark MAYBE) have some cultural root there, but they didn't take care of the land at all.

I suggest you to read some history books, and furthermore, remember that this time we must do not what is convenient, but WHAT IS RIGHT!

Shalom

I SUPPORT USA
I SUPPORT ISRAEL
I SUPPORT FREEDOM!

OH, there's a good plan.

So we support whoever is weak.

So we support Israel until they become dominant, and can annihilate the Arabs.

Then the Arabs become the weaker party, and we turn and support them. After all, that is your definition of "just."  Or is it only "just"  when such policy is beneficial to Israel???

Then the Arabs become dominant, and we switch our allegiance back to Isreal.

Yeah, let's just artificially maintain the balance of power and ensure the fighting goes on to infinity. To date, that is EXACTLY what our policy has been.

And in the meantime, we just clean the American bodies off the street. And who could question our actions?? We are being "just."

I shouldn't have posted this, cuz I said the convo was over. But I just couldn't stand it.

The last reply is yours.

The concept that the Palestinians EVER had a homeland is the flaw in your history PIGSHOOTER.  Have you ever been there?  I have.  The Palestinians are the original squatter/homeless/useless population.  They have never established a recognized government, society, economy or military.  The poorest countries in Africa are better organized.  And I'm talking about PRIOR to the Jews beginning their return.  The Palestinians are a waste-basket culture, they live only to blame others for their situation, and hate is their only tool.  The only reason they were even in the region is because they're too disorganized to better themselves or their society.  Despite the support of their neighboring countries over the past decades, they have never been organized as anything more than a band of thugs.

Your anti-Semitic views are obvious PIGSHOOTER.  I don't support them on basic principle, but also because they're poorly supported by current and past history.  Learn your history from something other than KKK pamphlets.

Why is it no one can dare be critical of Isreal w/o being branded "anti-semitic"? It matters not whether it was kykes or camel jockies who first setteled the land. The bottom line is the U.S. should not be supplying arms to states that do not respect the rights of their minorities, especially states that have an official religion.

Post from GarandMan -

We needn't see any more dead on our streets! I think that we've 'gotten the message' from Bin Laden and his Palestinian supporters!

But I'll be G--Damned if I think this country should turn tale in a fight, or alter fifty years of American support of Israel over a mere pipsqueak of man such as Bin Laden! We faced down a whole lot more serious enemies than this POS!


Supporting the Shah of Iran (not an Arab, BTW, but Persian) was the RIGHT thing to do in 1952, and, as events have transpired, it was the RIGHT thing to do right up to his overthrow!

Eric The(RememberTheCovenant!)Hun[>]:)]

Yeah - I thought there was supposed ot be a "separation of church and state."

Hadn't thought of that one. We won't allow a single dollar to go to ANYTHING remotely religious in the US, yet we send billions of dollars to the two most ardently religious nations in the world, both of which have gov't sponsored religions..

Something stinks here....

Post from world_wolf -

Hell, boyz, up until about 1962, the United States pretty much had an official religion, it was called Christianity, IIRC!

But that's pretty much over now, and my-o-my but how we have prospered and shined in the intervening period of time! We are truly blessed!

Eric The(I'mReallyHappyForUs,No,Really!)Hun[>]:)]

Eric -

I agree.

But I think the point was not about HAVING an official religion in Israel and Arab nations, but that Israel and Arabs PUNISH those who don't conform to the state religin, which we have NEVER done in an official capacity in the US. ('cept MAYBE Salem, MA. But NEVER on a national scale)

And in spite of their repressive religious environemnts, we send BOTH of them huge sums in US aid.

Same deal with China, with bith a horrendous record on  human rights and religious persecution.

OK, I don't agree with everything Israel does, but pulling the old "respecting minorities" means what?  They don't respect a criminal society who's only goal is to kill as many Israelis as possible in their own suicide?  Are you kidding?

If you deny a society's right to defend themselves against those who chose to destroy them, then you must oppose America's right to punish those who attacked us yesterday.
 
If your reasoning is sound, and based on true facts, then it is your "opinion", nothing more.  But when it is based on ignorance and hate, it becomes anti-Semitic.  THAT's the difference, and THAT's why his posts smacked of anti-Semitism.

Guys, quotes like this one really show the inconceivable ignorance of some individuals.  The liberal news media is extremely pleased that even the most right wing gun owners now have been indoctrinated with the falsity of the above statement.  Please read the following article as soon as possible to educate yourself on this mis-used statement.  I am extremely disapointed that anyone here would believe this propaganda that has been spread.

[url]http://www.netcolony.com/news/hotwire2000/hlcomm.html[/url]

Chris Williams

Chris-

It was "tongue in cheeck." My fault for not putting an emoticon to more clearly illustrate that.

The larger point is that both Israel and the Arabs PUNISH those in their country who don't knuckle under to the state religion.

Kinda like China does, and we need to SERIUOSLY think about whether either Israel of the Arabs deserve our money. (It has ALREADY been historically established that we've supported both the Arabs and Israel with US dollars)

10-4 Big shooter, I have to agree, and no I do not condone what happened. I do believe that the US stuck it's nose where it doesn't belong to many times and we paid for it yesturday on 9-11 -01. But we should still make whom ever is responsible pay dearly.

When the last Palestinian is dead there will be peace.  That price is higher than either we or the Isrealies are willing to pay.  Yeah, Isreal 'pursecutes' the Palestinians.  Shut off the TV and get an education.  Planerench out.

I am a simple man, although fairly well educated.  I see one "nationality" expressing thier grief & offering to send help, and another rejoicing that so many Americans are dead & injured.

Regardless of the nationality, race, religion, or whatever else this shows me who is my friend & who is my enemy.  I stand by my friend.  I don't abandon them.  

The US has been on the side of the Palestinians especially these past months despite thier indiscriminant bombing of innocents, restraining Isreal.  What the celebrants failed to realize was that now the Isreali military/govt will not be held back.  How can the US tell Isreal not to retaliate with all they have over suicide bombings when we ourselves seath with rage?

The Arab world should be concerned over this incident, for regardless of who is responsible for the WTC attacks, the Palestinians have no one to come to thier aid now.  

Unfortunately, Arafat is the only one who realizes this.  Those celebrating this day should relish it, for it will be very short lived.  It is a sad day for all.

Please do not drag this down to an argument over religion.  This is not what Islam, Cristianity, or Judaism teach....

Well, whatever your viewpoints are on supporting Israel, as of yesterday, it ought to be "The enemy of my enemy is my FRIEND".

The entire world of Islam is our enemy.  So in that note:

Mohamed is sucking pig d*cks in hell while taking it up the @ss from that denom god Allah.  I spit in the face of the entire Islamic world.  All Moslems in America should be put behind barbed wire NOW.

Any Moslem assholes on here who don't like it, come and do something about it.

I repeat: "In any case the Palestinian issue is irrelevant at this point."

What occurred yesterday was an act of war against the People of the United States of America.

I never want to turn the TV on again and see jumbo jets flying into the rebuilt World Trade Center.  If necessary we take Israel out as well to protect the People of the United States.  

And if you are dumb enough to think that the US should "keep it's nose out of other's business" causing a greater world peace then you obviously dropped out of school before getting any history classes.  Let's see what's the short list of countries that are free today because the US got involved in conflicts that did not cause deaths inside our borders:

Europe - WW I & II
North Africa - WW II
Asia Pac - WW II
Korea
Kuwait (and likely Iran & Saudi Arabia)
Kosovo

No doubt we make some rather questionable aliances a bit too often, but don't ever allow yourself to believe that if we went isolationist that it would not result in a horrific free for all with unbelievable loss of life.

What does that mean?

We stuck our nose, where it didn’t belong, and so we paid for it.
Now that we paid for it, we’re going to get even for paying for it?

If we paid for wrongdoing, hasn’t justice now been served by current events?
Since when does the punished seek retribution for his punishment?

This makes no sense. Who’s side are you on?

I think some of us need to think about what we’re saying before we say it.

[>:/]

In the interest of diplomacy and compromise can I turn my preban Red Ryder in instead?

Israel would not have an issue taking us out to protect their interests.

I'm not advocating that we take them out. How about we just adopt their slogan "Never Again"

Just what was the United States telling Israel when IT faced serious terroristic attacks by its enemies?

[b]You don't suppose we were urging restraint, now, do you?[/b]

What kind of Ally is THAT??????

Eric The(IShallNotBeMoved!)Hun[>]:)]

Israel has no choice. They are on a sliver of land and have no place to go. They have made it very clear to everyone that they will do whatever is necessary to protect their interests.

Which part of "I'm not advocating that we take them out." is not clear to you? The only thing I'm advocating is we do whatever is necessary to protect OUR interests.

You're too late. They took all my sharp objects away years ago. But in the interest of compromise and diplomacy you can have one of my spoons.

So in return you want to commit acts of terrorism back to other innocents?

SEIG HEIL! SEIG HEIL!

May be the liberals were right all along, gun owners are also KKK and Aryan Nations members.

"Our support of Israel is to blame for this tragedy"

I think that anyone who believes this does not understand personal responsibility.  A group of terrorists are responsbile for this, not "Our support for Israel . . . ."  Its like the child molester who blames his parents because they beat him.  Everyone has a choice how they act in this life, and these terrorists acted wrongly by targeting innocents.

I am no fan of Israel, and do not particularly understand our policy in the region.  But even if we have wronged the Arabs, whatever we have done does not justify this.

#1 God bless america
#2 That's right, we are hated just because with support Israel.  I am sick of hearing that, it is total bullshit.   The world's ills are not the fault the of Jews or Isreal! We were attacked because we are the leader of the free world, PERIOD!!!!!

You know, I was almost convinced...

I have a cousin who lived in Jerusalem for two years and who tells me that the Palestinians are the kindest and friendliest people around, and that the Israelis are the most pompous, arrogant, and hypocritical bastards you'd ever want to meet. His opinions dovetail perfectly with everything you say above.

Considering the pull that Jews have in this country (Let's face it: I'll probably be called a racist for daring to characterize them as anything other than perfect)I decided I'd [b]listen[/b] instead of knee-jerking along with the rest of my Conservative brethren. I listened intently a few weeks ago when Brit Hume interviewed a BBC reporter (whose name escapes me at the moment), who confirmed [b]everything[/b] you and my cousin have said, [b]and then some[/b]. I actually began [b]supporting[/b] the Palestinians!

Then came yesterday..... and I saw those "people" dancing, shouting, singing, and celebrating at the news of the attack on [b]my[/b] country. [pissed]

My support vanished as quickly, completely, and irrevocably as those airplanes did yesterday. At this point, if the Israelis decided to open their own little version of Dachau outside the gates of Jerusalem and began stoking the ovens with Arab children, I'd say "Reap what you sow, you bastards" then turn my back on them.

Cruel? Heartless? Maybe. [b]That's what happens when a bunch of raghead motherfuckers attempt to murder over 50,000 of my fellow citizens in cold blood and cripple my nation's economic and military power.[/b]

Perhaps, as time passes, my fury will dissipate enough for me to reconsider what I recognize to be an emotion-based rant, [b]but I doubt it[/b]. The only way my rage will cool is if we go and grab [b]every single person[/b] who, in [b]any[/b] way, helped to plan or execute these attacks, then mount their heads on spikes on the White House lawn along with a sign reading "This is what happens when people fuck with the United States!" Only then will I concede that my rant has been egregiously un-Christian and apologize.

What I find sad is that the scumbags who wreaked all that havoc have probably sealed what little hope the Palestinians had of winning over the United States. [b]I find it sad because you and my cousin are probably right.[/b] Unfortunately, slaughtering our citizens and celebrating about it is not what I consider the best public-relations tactic ever created.

Also, when, exactly, has the United States "blessed and supported" the activities you mentioned above. Turned a blind eye to, probably, but "blessed and supported", hardly.

Sorry, but I had to vent.....

[pissed]


(Edited because I got chased off the computer I was working on before I could finish and spell-check.)