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Posted: 2/6/2006 9:53:49 PM EDT
Have Jarhead Brigade ever really shit the bed in warfare? I'm talking about a monumental screwup that resulted in a rout, and a loss for the Marine Corps. If so, who were the forces that beat them, and how/why?
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 9:56:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/6/2006 9:56:55 PM EDT by GTOJudge885]
Do you count the longest retreat in Marine Corps history even though they recovered and kicked some serious ass?
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 9:57:13 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 10:31:58 PM EDT
While the USMC has lost battles (although never through their own fault, AFAIK), they've always managed to make the enemy pay extremely dearly. The only way to beat the Marines at their own game is to do it by an atronomical superiority in numbers.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 10:38:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GTOJudge885:
Do you count the longest retreat in Marine Corps history even though they recovered and kicked some serious ass?



Korea 1950? Considering how many Chinese were coming at them, I can't say I blame them from pulling back.

You know, I can't offhand recall any times when the Marines broke. They've been defeated in the occasional fight, but a collapse? Good question.

NTM
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 10:44:38 PM EDT
Not according to my Dad, uncle, 4 cousins, great uncle, and many more in my family. Over 70 yrs of ass kicking United States Marine Corps pride just within the first 4 of my short list above. You wouldn't believe my great uncle's stories from WWII and China (he was a sniper scout). The one about how he avenged his best buddies death is my favorite story in the world.

Marines don't know how to lose, that's a fact.

My 1 regret will always be not having become a U.S. Marine.



--VT
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 11:04:12 PM EDT
Here is a instance on Guadalcanal in 1942 in which about 500 Marines were trapped by the Japanese forces and were
rescued by the U.S. Coast Guard.

DOUGLAS MUNRO'S MEDAL OF HONOR CITATION

        DOUGLAS ALBERT MUNRO, SIGNALMAN FIRST CLASS, U.S. COAST GUARD
     'For extraordinary heroism and conspicuous gallantry in action above and beyond the call of duty as Officer-in-Charge of a group of Higgins boats, engaged in the evacuation of a Battalion of Marines trapped by enemy Japanese forces at Point Cruz, Guadalcanal, on September 27, 1942.  After making preliminary plans for the evacuation of nearly 500 beleaguered Marines, Munro, under constant risk of his life, daringly led five of his small craft toward the shore.   As he closed the beach, he signalled [sic] the others to land, and then in order to draw the enemy's fire and protect the heavily loaded boats, he valiantly placed his craft with its two small guns as a shield between the beachhead and the Japanese.   When the perilous task of evacuation was nearly completed, Munro was killed by enemy fire, but his crew, two of whom were wounded, carried on until the last boat had loaded and cleared the beach.  By his outstanding leadership, expert planning, and dauntless devotion to duty, he and his courageous comrades undoubtedly saved the lives of many who otherwise would have perished.  He gallantly gave up his life in defense of his country.'"
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 12:17:27 AM EDT
Wow. What a citation. One brave mo-fo.

And can someone please explain to me why Douglass MacArthur was awarded a Medal of Honor?
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 12:32:04 AM EDT
One Ranger I talked to in Afghanistan was pissed over Fallujah. I made a comment that the Marines were kicking ass in Fallujah (back in late 2004). He told me it was the Marines fault that Fallujah fell in the first place. According to him Falujah was pacified when the Army gave control of it to the Marines and the Marines let the condition deteriorate into chaos.

I don't know how together he had his facts, but the way he talked it sounded like he was in Iraq at one point.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 12:49:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 12:55:10 AM EDT by ASO544]

Originally Posted By SMProud:
One Ranger I talked to in Afghanistan was pissed over Fallujah. I made a comment that the Marines were kicking ass in Fallujah (back in late 2004). He told me it was the Marines fault that Fallujah fell in the first place. According to him Falujah was pacified when the Army gave control of it to the Marines and the Marines let the condition deteriorate into chaos.

I don't know how together he had his facts, but the way he talked it sounded like he was in Iraq at one point.





If I remember correctly the Army had control over Fallujah until it became a "den" for insurgents and tactical control was turned over to the MARINES.

Then again I could be mistaken as I sat this war out at home and allowed the younger MARINE generation to fight this one while I tried to make some money!!!

The Chosin Resevoir was not a retreat but a "tactical withdraw". I would suggest asking those 8-10 commie divisions how they faired during this MARINE "retreat". The MARINES were offered the chance to fly out but they had to leave their dead and fighting equipment so this option was rejected. While fighting their way to the sea, they recovered stockpiles of US army equipment and abandoned soldiers a long the way.

Semper Fi,
ASO544
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 12:59:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 1:04:49 AM EDT by remedy]
That is absolute bullshit, if you want to read a 100% accurate account of Fallujah, you need to get this book:

No True Glory
A Frontline Account of the Battle for Fallujah
by Bing West


It is an excellent book that explains in great detail our presence there both by the Army, then the Marines. It goes into the complex makeup of the city, the history, the CIA's involvement, spies on the ground, and of course the siege that almost never happened. The Marines were 2 days into siezing the city and then were called back to appease the pacifists back in the states. They then went back in and cleaned up, but not before many terror elements scattered to Mosul and other regions.

It also highlights several big battles during Fallujah, and even the Medal of Honor recommendation of 1st Sgt Kasal for saving a young PFC and others during a bloody fight inside a house full of insurgents.

This book is fascinating and very very accurate. Bing West is a great writer.

ETA: Another good book on the Marines in Iraq that is filled with first hand battle accounts and shows how under-equipped the Marines always are when they go into battle is: Generation Kill by Evan Wright.. Evan Wright is embedded with First Recon who spearheaded the drive to Bagdhad.


- rem



Originally Posted By SMProud:
One Ranger I talked to in Afghanistan was pissed over Fallujah. I made a comment that the Marines were kicking ass in Fallujah (back in late 2004). He told me it was the Marines fault that Fallujah fell in the first place. According to him Falujah was pacified when the Army gave control of it to the Marines and the Marines let the condition deteriorate into chaos.

I don't know how together he had his facts, but the way he talked it sounded like he was in Iraq at one point.

Link Posted: 2/7/2006 3:42:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SMProud:
One Ranger I talked to in Afghanistan was pissed over Fallujah. I made a comment that the Marines were kicking ass in Fallujah (back in late 2004). He told me it was the Marines fault that Fallujah fell in the first place. According to him Falujah was pacified when the Army gave control of it to the Marines and the Marines let the condition deteriorate into chaos.

I don't know how together he had his facts, but the way he talked it sounded like he was in Iraq at one point.


the army DID have control of fallujah. they operated freely and were doing a lot of good works rebuilding schools, hospitals, paving roads, bringing fresh water, etc. then john kerry and barbara mikulski held up funding playing partisan politics and suddenly the sunnis felt they were being punished and discriminated against for no reason and this was taken advantage of by lurking saddamists and bathists and the violence rapidly escalated. the army decided the best option available was to simply pull back and cordon off the area. shortly after that the contractor murders happened.

as said above the marines were ready to go in but were pulled back by bush and company kowtowing to the media and dem pressure. that's when they tried using former army generals and troops to serve as a buffer and get things in the city under control. that was an unmitigated disaster. shortly after that the marines and army went in and cleaned that shithole out.

fuck a duck, all that was only a few years ago and was all over the fucking news as well as here!!! are your memories THAT short???
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 3:47:39 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 3:54:09 AM EDT
actually, prior to chosin there was the first battle of bull run/manassas. a battalion of inexperienced marines from the washington navy yard were attached to the zouaves who broke and ran in the first attack and took the marines with them. they kept running but the marines rallied and went back like five times or something until they ran into fresh confederates who chopped them up and forced them to retire (in fighting order) for good.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 3:58:46 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 4:26:55 AM EDT
The Marine Corps are working on getting a military academy. Let's see how they do at football!
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 4:36:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hardcorps1775:

Originally Posted By SMProud:
One Ranger I talked to in Afghanistan was pissed over Fallujah. I made a comment that the Marines were kicking ass in Fallujah (back in late 2004). He told me it was the Marines fault that Fallujah fell in the first place. According to him Falujah was pacified when the Army gave control of it to the Marines and the Marines let the condition deteriorate into chaos.

I don't know how together he had his facts, but the way he talked it sounded like he was in Iraq at one point.


the army DID have control of fallujah. they operated freely and were doing a lot of good works rebuilding schools, hospitals, paving roads, bringing fresh water, etc. then john kerry and barbara mikulski held up funding playing partisan politics and suddenly the sunnis felt they were being punished and discriminated against for no reason and this was taken advantage of by lurking saddamists and bathists and the violence rapidly escalated. the army decided the best option available was to simply pull back and cordon off the area. shortly after that the contractor murders happened.

as said above the marines were ready to go in but were pulled back by bush and company kowtowing to the media and dem pressure. that's when they tried using former army generals and troops to serve as a buffer and get things in the city under control. that was an unmitigated disaster. shortly after that the marines and army went in and cleaned that shithole out.

fuck a duck, all that was only a few years ago and was all over the fucking news as well as here!!! are your memories THAT short???



+1
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:27:58 AM EDT
this month's SOF has an article on Marine Snipers and they talk about two 3 man squads of Reserve Marines from OH that got overrun in broad daylight in OIF. THe recounting from the Active Marines made it sound like the reserve snipers just let the Tangos walk up to within 300 meters while the Marines lounged on a hill. The 6 were killed as a UAV watched. The rest of the team mas more worried that 2 M40's, 2 M249's and 2 M16A4 with all other associated equip was lost.

This is a small group, but the only example of this type I can recall.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:35:18 AM EDT
Nope, if the marines start to loose they detonate a 220 kilton pure fusion device that they all carry on their left arms.

<­BR>


Or is that preditors? I always get those two confused...
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:36:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Miranthis:
this month's SOF has an article on Marine Snipers and they talk about two 3 man squads of Reserve Marines from OH that got overrun in broad daylight in OIF. THe recounting from the Active Marines made it sound like the reserve snipers just let the Tangos walk up to within 300 meters while the Marines lounged on a hill. The 6 were killed as a UAV watched. The rest of the team mas more worried that 2 M40's, 2 M249's and 2 M16A4 with all other associated equip was lost.
This is a small group, but the only example of this type I can recall.



Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:49:34 AM EDT
No friggin' way Chosin was a defeat.
Now, Wake Island...
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:49:50 AM EDT
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wake_Island

USMC and USN forces surrenedered on Wake Island, after a USN relief Task Force turned away.

The USMC pilots, and ground crews were executed by the Japanese after the surrender.

The 5 in gun crew members that survived the battle were sought, so they too could be executed.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:53:01 AM EDT
Operation Buffalo, DMZ battles, Viet Nam. Ask this question of Charlie, 1/9, the WalkingDead.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 7:05:17 AM EDT
www.mca-marines.org/Leatherneck/dec01wake.htm

A good, but long, Wake Island account.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 7:14:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By KlubMarcus:
The Marine Corps are working on getting a military academy. Let's see how they do at football!



:-O

And here I was looking forward to the sequel to "Annapolis", "Brown Field".



On a separate note, according to the PBS special on Blackwater, the Marines were readying for a low-key entry to Fallujah until the contractor killings and pressure came to bring down the hammer.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 7:17:55 AM EDT
How bout Somolia? Does that count?
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 7:18:05 AM EDT
I was going to say .. Remember Wake Island...

May those fellow leathernecks never be forgotten....

Semper Fi!!!!

Ted...
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 7:19:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Juntau:
How bout Somolia? Does that count?



Huh? BHD was Army, not Marines. Marines did a fine job.

Problem was, it wasn't a lasting solution and the warlords just hid out until the Marines left.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 8:18:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mmx1:
Originally Posted By Juntau:
How bout Somolia? Does that count?



Boy, I think we may need some sort of IQ test to be allowed to post here

I was there in early/mid 1993 and those damn rag-tag clans knew better than to try and make a stand against the USMC. We owned that place, but once the UN took over it went to %$#^!!!

Semper Fi,
ASO544
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 7:35:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ASO544:

Originally Posted By mmx1:
Originally Posted By Juntau:
How bout Somolia? Does that count?



Boy, I think we may need some sort of IQ test to be allowed to post here

I was there in early/mid 1993 and those damn rag-tag clans knew better than to try and make a stand against the USMC. We owned that place, but once the UN took over it went to %$#^!!!

Semper Fi,
ASO544



Weren't there about 10,000 Marines there at the time? And when they were pulled out (by Clinton I belive) and replaced by the Army, it was only a 4,000 Soldiers, who were placed under the control of the UN.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 7:43:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GTOJudge885:
Do you count the longest retreat in Marine Corps history even though they recovered and kicked some serious ass?



Hey they wern't retreating they were advancing in a different direction.





­

<­BR>

Link Posted: 2/8/2006 7:45:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By KlubMarcus:
The Marine Corps are working on getting a military academy. Let's see how they do at football!


Source?
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 7:51:47 AM EDT
While individual Marines showed great bravery, Peleliu was no tactical or strategic masterpiece.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 7:53:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By imposter:
While individual Marines showed great bravery, Peleliu was no tactical or strategic masterpiece.


Thank Mac for that diaster. He wanted it as a staging point for his precious Phillipines.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 8:10:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2006 8:11:33 AM EDT by hardcorps1775]

Originally Posted By Unicorn:

Originally Posted By ASO544:

Originally Posted By mmx1:
Originally Posted By Juntau:
How bout Somolia? Does that count?



Boy, I think we may need some sort of IQ test to be allowed to post here

I was there in early/mid 1993 and those damn rag-tag clans knew better than to try and make a stand against the USMC. We owned that place, but once the UN took over it went to %$#^!!!

Semper Fi,
ASO544



Weren't there about 10,000 Marines there at the time? And when they were pulled out (by Clinton I belive) and replaced by the Army, it was only a 4,000 Soldiers, who were placed under the control of the UN.


wasn't the army restricted to occaisional patrols and special operations as well? i seem to remember they spent most of their time sitting on their bases getting shot at by the skinnies...
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 8:30:56 AM EDT

Oringinally posted by ASO544
Boy, I think we may need some sort of IQ test to be allowed to post here



Sorry, didn't know you had to be a history buff to reply here I'll try to get my facts straight before posting in the future. So according to a veteran that was in Somalia
The Marines kicked ass against the rag-tag clans, owned them, then turned it over to the UN and that's when it all fell apart....... I think there's some discrepency in this version of events.


Link Posted: 2/8/2006 8:33:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2006 9:04:03 AM EDT by ASO544]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oringinally posted by ASO544
Boy, I think we may need some sort of IQ test to be allowed to post here
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Sorry, didn't know you had to be a history buff to reply here I'll try to get my facts straight before posting in the future. So according to a veteran that was in Somalia
The Marines kicked ass against the rag-tag clans, owned them, then turned it over to the UN and that's when it all fell apart....... I think there's some discrepency in this version of events.




I'm not really blaming the army but the UN for its loss of control, but since you seem to have this "supossed" first hand knowledge of a discrepency, please elaborate??????

Semper Fi,
ASO544

Edited cause first response was too mean.....and I am trying to be nicer as my wife says I can be a D#%k
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 8:37:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2006 8:47:01 AM EDT by RustedAce]

Originally Posted By Miranthis:
this month's SOF has an article on Marine Snipers and they talk about two 3 man squads of Reserve Marines from OH that got overrun in broad daylight in OIF. THe recounting from the Active Marines made it sound like the reserve snipers just let the Tangos walk up to within 300 meters while the Marines lounged on a hill. The 6 were killed as a UAV watched. The rest of the team mas more worried that 2 M40's, 2 M249's and 2 M16A4 with all other associated equip was lost.

This is a small group, but the only example of this type I can recall.



If your talking about what I think you are, my unit had to go look for thier stuff. We had to sweep a hole city to find thier fancy gear. I think we found a hat........

There is a Hadji video of the guys I am talking about getting killed. They snuck up behind the snipers and wasted them. I havnt seen it but its out there.

This is the rifle of one of the guys who got killed.



So yeah Marines lose sometimes, but in the towns around there we killed alot more of them while searching. Also those sniper teams had probably 50-70 kills between the men, so they more than got thier fare share of pre-revenge killing in.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 8:43:57 AM EDT
Will this shameful Marine bashing never end!?
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 8:48:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RustedAce:

Originally Posted By Miranthis:
this month's SOF has an article on Marine Snipers and they talk about two 3 man squads of Reserve Marines from OH that got overrun in broad daylight in OIF. THe recounting from the Active Marines made it sound like the reserve snipers just let the Tangos walk up to within 300 meters while the Marines lounged on a hill. The 6 were killed as a UAV watched. The rest of the team mas more worried that 2 M40's, 2 M249's and 2 M16A4 with all other associated equip was lost.

This is a small group, but the only example of this type I can recall.



If your talking about what I think you are, my unit had to go look for thier stuff. We had to sweep a hole city to find thier fancy gear. I think we found a hat........

There is a Hadji video of the guys I am talking about getting killed. They snuck up behind the snipers and wasted them. I havnt seen it but its out there.

This is the rifle of one of the guys who got killed.
img270.imageshack.us/img270/1161/vickingprobe900er.jpg

I saw that video. The hajis came away with 2 or 3 M-40s, some M-16s, an M-240, and some other shit.

So you guys did recover at least one of the rifles?
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 8:50:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By imposter:
While individual Marines showed great bravery, Peleliu was no tactical or strategic masterpiece.



Chesty Puller took a lot of heat for his "up the middle" tactics on Peleliu. Chesty Puller was a great man, the greatest MARINE, and a great general officer while dealing with his men, but tacticaly he only knew "going for the throat". He could add up a body count on both sides, but damn he could get the job done. I would have followed him anywhere.

Semper Fi,
ASO544
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 8:52:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sukebe:
Will this shameful Marine bashing never end!?



Only when the jealousy about not being a MARINE passes!!!!

Semper Fi,
ASO544
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 8:52:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2006 8:53:28 AM EDT by RustedAce]

Originally Posted By joker581:

Originally Posted By RustedAce:

Originally Posted By Miranthis:
this month's SOF has an article on Marine Snipers and they talk about two 3 man squads of Reserve Marines from OH that got overrun in broad daylight in OIF. THe recounting from the Active Marines made it sound like the reserve snipers just let the Tangos walk up to within 300 meters while the Marines lounged on a hill. The 6 were killed as a UAV watched. The rest of the team mas more worried that 2 M40's, 2 M249's and 2 M16A4 with all other associated equip was lost.

This is a small group, but the only example of this type I can recall.



If your talking about what I think you are, my unit had to go look for thier stuff. We had to sweep a hole city to find thier fancy gear. I think we found a hat........

There is a Hadji video of the guys I am talking about getting killed. They snuck up behind the snipers and wasted them. I havnt seen it but its out there.

This is the rifle of one of the guys who got killed.
img270.imageshack.us/img270/1161/vickingprobe900er.jpg

I saw that video. The hajis came away with 2 or 3 M-40s, some M-16s, an M-240, and some other shit.

So you guys did recover at least one of the rifles?



Nope, thats before the guys got ambushed. Like a week or two before. They were with 3/25, I was with 3/2 but we did an operation with them.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 8:54:25 AM EDT
I should have figured that from the picture.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 8:55:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By KlubMarcus:
The Marine Corps are working on getting a military academy. Let's see how they do at football!



!! really?

man the boat school might have been allright without all the friggin jarhead idiots running around

Link Posted: 2/8/2006 8:57:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Juntau:

Oringinally posted by ASO544
Boy, I think we may need some sort of IQ test to be allowed to post here



Sorry, didn't know you had to be a history buff to reply here I'll try to get my facts straight before posting in the future. So according to a veteran that was in Somalia
The Marines kicked ass against the rag-tag clans, owned them, then turned it over to the UN and that's when it all fell apart....... I think there's some discrepency in this version of events.





Yep. Best to get your facts straight.

The Marines were running thier own show with their usual combined arms
package that was not to be f'd with AFA the Somolies were concerned.

Then, when the UN took over, even the Somolies were smart enough to figgure out
they could do what they wanted to.

Link Posted: 2/8/2006 9:00:35 AM EDT
Read Blackhawk Down. Even the Somalis they interviewed told them that they didn't fuck with the Marines much.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 9:08:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By joker581:
Read Blackhawk Down. Even the Somalis they interviewed told them that they didn't fuck with the Marines much.



Yup. Great book.

Any Ranger or SF guy I've ever known would rather gut himself than even smell a HUMMV or anything bigger. SOCOM requested that armor be put on the ground to aid in operations but was refused by the Clintonistas.

When light guys are asking for armor, it's probably best to listen to them.

That's one of the resons they didn't mess with the Marines. I remember a very vivid video
of a Marine M1 smashing through a wall and, a bunch of grunts running in after it.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 9:12:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GTOJudge885:
Do you count the longest retreat in Marine Corps history even though they recovered and kicked some serious ass?



Weren't the Marines in continuous combat ops with some 10 Chinese Divisions? A period of 14-15 days or something?
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 9:13:49 AM EDT
Wake Island comes to mind. They were doing pretty good until the commander surrendered.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 9:16:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GTOJudge885:
Do you count the longest retreat in Marine Corps history even though they recovered and kicked some serious ass?

Considering that the First Marine Division was the only unit on either side to come out of the Chosin intact, I think we can count that as a Marine Corps victory.
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