Better read some more or better yet, serve some!!!! Once you get off the teat that is!!! I'm not really blaming the army but the UN for its loss of control, but since you seem to have this "supossed" first hand knowledge of a discrepency, please elaborate??????

Why all the hostility? All I did was make an inquiry in this forum on Somalia then disagree with your version of events. Never did I say I had first hand knowledge of the conflict, you did remember?

Oringinally posted by ASO544  I was there in early/mid 1993 and those damn rag-tag clans knew better than to try and make a stand against the USMC. We owned that place, but once the UN took over it went to %$#^!!![/

Believe what you want to believe but don't force it on others.  

Quoted: Better read some more or better yet, serve some!!!! Once you get off the teat that is!!! I'm not really blaming the army but the UN for its loss of control, but since you seem to have this "supossed" first hand knowledge of a discrepency, please elaborate?????? Why all the hostility? All I did was make an inquiry in this forum on Somalia then disagree with your version of events. Never did I say I had first hand knowledge of the conflict, you did remember? Oringinally posted by ASO544  I was there in early/mid 1993 and those damn rag-tag clans knew better than to try and make a stand against the USMC. We owned that place, but once the UN took over it went to %$#^!!![/ Believe what you want to believe but don't force it on others.

So what do you believe? You imply it was a failure but based on what?

Quoted: Wake Island comes to mind.  They were doing pretty good until the Navycommander surrendered.

Regardless, it was hopeless after relief was denied.

Quoted: The Marine Corps are working on getting a military academy. Let's see how they do at football!

Many years ago, the military had real football teams around the world.  Officer and enlisted from all the services played.  The equipment was paid for out of Welfare & Rec funds.  The games were usually played on Saturdays.  When I was stationed in San Diego in the mid-60's the Navy Pacific Fleet training command had a team, as did several other commands in the area including Marine Corps Recruit Depot.    Late in the training camp, we scrimmaged the MCRD guys.  They were very good as were we.  I forget the "score" but I think at the end of the scrimmage, they were ahead by a TD.  For the unitiated, during a scrimmage, the ball is placed on the 25 yd line and the offensive team is given a chance to score.  If you don't make a first down or score, the other team gets the ball to try.

Anyway...I played both ways then, center and MLB.  I remember two things about that day.  One...I read their QB on an A&B divide and snatched the pigskin as I was running into the flat.  Now I had a clear run to their endzone.  As I got to the ten, I heard footsteps and turned my head to look...AND DROPPED THE FUCKING BALL!  .  They recovered on the five.  

The other thing I vividly remember was the Marines' coaches (virtually all staff NCOs/gunnies) SCREAMING at their men when they fucked up...and threatening to put them on the next plane to 'Nam if they fucked up again.  Damn fine motivation if you ask me!  

We played them late in the season.  We had a small team and many injuries by then.  At least three of our first team defensive squad was injured and out.  I was the captain.  They beat us 70-6.  They had a couple of new players...clearly ringers we had not seen during camp.  VERY good team.  Fast and powerful.  I got four stitches in my chin when their big, lean and FAST FB kicked me in the chin as I was trying to tackle him.  Lots of blood...it was cool.

Two years later, after I had rotated, my team killed them in the champ game 42-14.  I went to the game and couldn't believe how much they had changed...and how much improved our team was.  Made me feel kind of crappy.  My replacement was a lot better than me!  

Guess all of their great players had rotated to the jungle.    Hope they all made it back!

Quoted: Quoted: Wake Island comes to mind.  They were doing pretty good until the Navycommander surrendered. Regardless, it was hopeless after relief was denied.

One hour into the battle, the Japanese had their 1,000 infantry ashore. At 0450 CDR Cunningham sent a message: "Enemy on island. Issue in doubt."

Admiral William S. Pye, who was temporarily in command of the Pacific Fleet, did not want to risk losing the relief force with Saratoga. At 0811 Hawaii time, he ordered Fletcher to turn back to Midway. Officers pleaded with Fletcher to disregard the orders and make a run for Wake. Fletcher complied with his senior's command and ordered his ships about.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

"Issue in doubt", was apparently meant to mean hurry up with the help, at HQ is was felt it meant that there was nothing that could be done.

Admiral Pye was not given any other "combat commands" during WW-II.

Quoted: Quoted: While individual Marines showed great bravery, Peleliu was no tactical or strategic masterpiece. Chesty Puller took a lot of heat for his "up the middle" tactics on Peleliu. Chesty Puller was a great man, the greatest MARINE, and a great general officer while dealing with his men, but tacticaly he only knew "going for the throat". He could add up a body count on both sides, but damn he could get the job done. I would have followed him anywhere. Semper Fi, ASO544

Since Peleliu was as flat as a prepubescent chest and a solid hunk of coral so no holes could be dug, I don't think Puller deserved much if any of that heat. The highest natural feature on the island was what 50-100 feet high?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Wake Island comes to mind.  They were doing pretty good until the Navycommander surrendered. Regardless, it was hopeless after relief was denied. One hour into the battle, the Japanese had their 1,000 infantry ashore. At 0450 CDR Cunningham sent a message: "Enemy on island. Issue in doubt." Admiral William S. Pye, who was temporarily in command of the Pacific Fleet, did not want to risk losing the relief force with Saratoga. At 0811 Hawaii time, he ordered Fletcher to turn back to Midway. Officers pleaded with Fletcher to disregard the orders and make a run for Wake. Fletcher complied with his senior's command and ordered his ships about. ------------------------------------------------------------------- "Issue in doubt", was apparently meant to mean hurry up with the help, at HQ is was felt it meant that there was nothing that could be done. Admiral Pye was not given any other "combat commands" during WW-II.

While I'm not one to defend Pye, you have to view the decision through his POV. He had no battle wagons. Japanese carriers had just raped Hawaii, and should have done more damage than they did. The Japanese were walking all over the Pacific like it was their back yard, and he didn't have a firm grasp on what the OPFOR was. Losing carriers at that point would have been catastrophic.

Still, I think he shouldn't have retracted his order.

Let's not forget...

...there's a world of difference between losing a battle, and "blowing a battle".

If a battle in which the Corps fought COULD be won, it WAS won.

The Corps has lost a few battles, and Marines have died when ambushed or sniped.  I've seen this happen recently (not battles, but the loss of squads or individuals).
All fought valiantly, and no one "blew" any "battles".

The real question, is how many victorious battles have been snatched out of the grasp of Marine commanders, by political theater commanders or their civilian counterparts.  This too we have seen recently.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: How bout Somolia?  Does that count? Boy, I think we may need some sort of IQ test to be allowed to post here   Weren't there about 10,000 Marines there at the time?  And when they were pulled out (by Clinton I belive) and replaced by the Army, it was only a 4,000 Soldiers, who were placed under the control of the UN.

20,000.

Quoted: Let's not forget... ...there's a world of difference between losing a battle, and "blowing a battle". If a battle in which the Corps fought COULD be won, it WAS won. The Corps has lost a few battles, and Marines have died when ambushed or sniped.  I've seen this happen recently (not battles, but the loss of squads or individuals). All fought valiantly, and no one "blew" any "battles". The real question, is how many victorious battles have been snatched out of the grasp of Marine commanders, by political theater commanders or their civilian counterparts.  This too we have seen recently.

I'm not a marine, but I agree completely with you on that one.

Glad to hear from you and I hope everything is going ok.  

Quoted: While I'm not one to defend Pye, you have to view the decision through his POV. He had no battle wagons. Japanese carriers had just raped Hawaii, and should have done more damage than they did. The Japanese were walking all over the Pacific like it was their back yard, and he didn't have a firm grasp on what the OPFOR was. Losing carriers at that point would have been catastrophic. Still, I think he shouldn't have retracted his order.

I need the image of Winston Churchill, with a Tommy Gun, that asks WWWD?

On December 17 by the order of the commander of the Pacific Fleet admiral Husband E. Kimmel Task Force 14 left Pearl Harbor and headed for Wake Island. The projected U.S. relief attempt by Admiral Wilson Brown's Task Force Fourteen (ZO14) consisted of fleet carriers Saratoga and Lexington, the fleet tanker USNS Neches, the seaplane tender USS Tangier, three cruisers USS Astoria, USS Minneapolis, USS San Francisco and ten destroyers. The convoy carried the 4th Marine Coastal Defense Batallion, the VMF-221 fighter squadron equipped with F2A Brewster Buffalo fighters, along with 9,000 five-inch (127 mm) rounds, 12,000 three-inch (76.2) mm rounds, and 3,000,000 .50 cal. (12.7 mm) rounds as well as a large amount of ammunition for mortars and other batallion small arms.

On December 22 at 21:00 the task force received orders signed by Vice Admiral William S. Pye Acting Commander in Chief of the U.S. Pacific Fleet, to return to Pearl Harbor for fear of losses, so no naval battle took place.

You'll never win a fight you run from.

The US won Midway because of a willingness to fight when thoe odds weren't in our favor.

The USN, USMC and civilian "volunteers", on Wake seemed to be giving MUCH better than they took, and were seriously overmatched. If the IJN had to fight an "even" battle I think the US would have come away as a winner. Perhaps not being able to hold the island, but evacuating all the people, while destroying all the facilities, making Wake useless to the Japanese.

Quoted: Quoted: While I'm not one to defend Pye, you have to view the decision through his POV. He had no battle wagons. Japanese carriers had just raped Hawaii, and should have done more damage than they did. The Japanese were walking all over the Pacific like it was their back yard, and he didn't have a firm grasp on what the OPFOR was. Losing carriers at that point would have been catastrophic. Still, I think he shouldn't have retracted his order. I need the image of Winston Churchill, with a Tommy Gun, that asks WWWD? On December 17 by the order of the commander of the Pacific Fleet admiral Husband E. Kimmel Task Force 14 left Pearl Harbor and headed for Wake Island. The projected U.S. relief attempt by Admiral Wilson Brown's Task Force Fourteen (ZO14) consisted of fleet carriers Saratoga and Lexington, the fleet tanker USNS Neches, the seaplane tender USS Tangier, three cruisers USS Astoria, USS Minneapolis, USS San Francisco and ten destroyers. The convoy carried the 4th Marine Coastal Defense Batallion, the VMF-221 fighter squadron equipped with F2A Brewster Buffalo fighters, along with 9,000 five-inch (127 mm) rounds, 12,000 three-inch (76.2) mm rounds, and 3,000,000 .50 cal. (12.7 mm) rounds as well as a large amount of ammunition for mortars and other batallion small arms. On December 22 at 21:00 the task force received orders signed by Vice Admiral William S. Pye Acting Commander in Chief of the U.S. Pacific Fleet, to return to Pearl Harbor for fear of losses, so no naval battle took place. You'll never win a fight you run from. The US won Midway because of a willingness to fight when thoe odds weren't in our favor. The USN, USMC and civilian "volunteers", on Wake seemed to be giving MUCH better than they took, and were seriously overmatched. If the IJN had to fight an "even" battle I think the US would have come away as a winner. Perhaps not being able to hold the island, but evacuating all the people, while destroying all the facilities, making Wake useless to the Japanese.

Perhaps you missed my statement in blue? I think the Wake relief operation was a calculated risk from the get-go; one in which the risk to benefit weighed into the benefit side.

Still, I can understand his decision.

The exact occurances with the 3/25 and 2/4 SS ambushs have been thorough AAR'd however niether of the reports are suitable for discussion on the net.

The situation in Fallujah was not created by either the army or Marines, but made worse by both in different ways.  The incident that sparked the whole problem was in fact members of the 82 opening up on a crowd of protesters (who in reality probably did take shots at them).  However since it was close to their RIP/TOA with I MEF, they took a some what hands off approach not wanting to attempt a take down that would not be finish-able in their time.  The Marines at first had a similar approach and were enamored with the Hearts and Minds campaign.  After the Blackwater Bridge incident, the CG I MEF was directed to attack the city to clear it of the problem.  However a problem was created when after taking approx 80 percent of the city, political leadership got soft in the knees and told the Marines to halt.  During this halt, 1 MarDiv forces went into defensive mode and attempt to entice the residents into a fight.  However, the powers that be told the Marines to pull back and berm the city.  This created the myth of Fallujah, that festered until I MEF (with attached army heavy formations) was finally allowed to attack and clear.    

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: How bout Somolia?  Does that count? Boy, I think we may need some sort of IQ test to be allowed to post here

THAT would mean about only 100 people would be posting!

Quoted: Better read some more or better yet, serve some!!!! Once you get off the teat that is!!! I'm not really blaming the army but the UN for its loss of control, but since you seem to have this "supossed" first hand knowledge of a discrepency, please elaborate?????? Why all the hostility? All I did was make an inquiry in this forum on Somalia then disagree with your version of events. Never did I say I had first hand knowledge of the conflict, you did remember? Oringinally posted by ASO544  I was there in early/mid 1993 and those damn rag-tag clans knew better than to try and make a stand against the USMC. We owned that place, but once the UN took over it went to %$#^!!![/ Believe what you want to believe but don't force it on others.

Ok, so much for nice.

When you get of "Mom's Tit" and serve in a combat zone or serve period as I am guessing (could be wrong) you have not, then come back and try to "educate" us who have. What I am stating is common knowledge for those who have served in that particular mission. It is also common knowlege for those that can r-e-a-d as a book is your friend. At least try it before you come on a site and try to infrom us of events that we have "real life" knowledge of.

End of the lesson.

Semper Fi,
ASO544

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: How bout Somolia?  Does that count? Boy, I think we may need some sort of IQ test to be allowed to post here   THAT would mean about only 100 people would be posting!

God I love this place!!!!

Semper Fi,
ASO544

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: While individual Marines showed great bravery, Peleliu was no tactical or strategic masterpiece. Chesty Puller took a lot of heat for his "up the middle" tactics on Peleliu. Chesty Puller was a great man, the greatest MARINE, and a great general officer while dealing with his men, but tacticaly he only knew "going for the throat". He could add up a body count on both sides, but damn he could get the job done. I would have followed him anywhere. Semper Fi, ASO544 Since Peleliu was as flat as a prepubescent chest and a solid hunk of coral so no holes could be dug, I don't think Puller deserved much if any of that heat. The highest natural feature on the island was what 50-100 feet high?

I believe the terrain did force a lot of those type tactics as it was pretty flat and the Japs had a lot of interlocking defenses. The Umurbrogol mountain (Bloody Nose Ridge)area was around 500 above sea level if I remember correctly. I believe that Puller's regiment suffered around 54% casualty rate in the fight for Peleliu.  From the numerous books I read on Puller, they believed that his expertise ended at the battalion level (of course that could be jealousy)regarding command ability. I'm not sure I agree with them, but either way, his fight and leadership from the Chosin to the sea in Korea was amazing.

Quoted: The Marine Corps are working on getting a military academy. Let's see how they do at football!

Where did you hear this from?????????????

Quoted: How bout Somolia?  Does that count?

Marines where there? When, sir? Other than the evac????????

Quoted: Weren't the Marines in continuous combat ops with some 10 Chinese Divisions?  A period of 14-15 days or something?

Pretty close. I know a few Chosin Marines, they still don't talk about it much to this day.

Quoted: Quoted: How bout Somolia?  Does that count? Marines where there? When, sir? Other than the evac????????

The Marines were the first ones there.  

During the Battle of the Black Sea there was a MEU offshore that could have mounted an effective armored rescue but for several reasons, including a byzantine chain of command, was never asked for assistance.

When you get of "Mom's Tit" and serve in a combat zone or serve period as I am guessing (could be wrong) you have not, then come back and try to "educate" us who have. What I am stating is common knowledge for those who have served in that particular mission. It is also common knowlege for those that can r-e-a-d as a book is your friend. At least try it before you come on a site and try to infrom us of events that we have "real life" knowledge of.

I am happy that you served in a combat zone and feel that it was necessary to broadcast it here. My original question if YOU have read it,  was if Somalia was a battle blown by the Marine Corps. That was all.  For some reason, that struck a nerve and felt that it was a personal attack on you and had to comment

Boy, I think we may need some sort of IQ test to be allowed to post here

A simple no would have suffice no need to get so defensive.  But then again it is quite amusing Too easy

Quoted: How bout Somolia?  Does that count?

Not really a question....other than the question marks. Reads like you are implying as the others took it.

Sorry, didn't know you had to be a history buff to reply here I'll try to get my facts straight before posting in the future.  So according to a veteran that was in Somalia The Marines kicked ass against the rag-tag clans, owned them, then turned it over to the UN and that's when it all fell apart....... I think there's some discrepency in this version of events.

Again, you are implying and incorrectly as well. So much for the suppossed question.

Oringinally posted by ASO544  I was there in early/mid 1993 and those damn rag-tag clans knew better than to try and make a stand against the USMC. We owned that place, but once the UN took over it went to %$#^!!![/

Believe what you want to believe but don't force it on others.

No forcing only trying to "educate" the "uneducated".

Boy, I think we may need some sort of IQ test to be allowed to post here

A simple no would have suffice no need to get so defensive.  But then again it is quite amusing Too easy

NO....there that should be easy enough for you to understand.... Try and back pedal all you want....I will give you plenty of room!!! Yep, it is "Too Easy".

Now go to bed as I'm sure you have school tomorrow and I have to get up and shoot machine guns all day. Damn life is hard!

Semper Fi,
ASO544

Quoted: One Ranger I talked to in Afghanistan was pissed over Fallujah. I made a comment that the Marines were kicking ass in Fallujah (back in late 2004). He told me it was the Marines fault that Fallujah fell in the first place. According to him Falujah was pacified when the Army gave control of it to the Marines and the Marines let the condition deteriorate into chaos. I don't know how together he had his facts, but the way he talked it sounded like he was in Iraq at one point.

BWAHAHAHAHA!! That has got to be the funniest thing I've heard in a long time. Tell your friend he's an idiot of epic proportions. As part of the first USMC unit to enter Camp Fallujah in preparation for the handover into USMC control, I can tell you horror stories of how the Army 'handled' <cough> Fallujah.......

Quoted: Quoted: Weren't the Marines in continuous combat ops with some 10 Chinese Divisions?  A period of 14-15 days or something? Pretty close. I know a few Chosin Marines, they still don't talk about it much to this day.

"They are on our left, on our right, in front of us, and behind us.  They can't get away from us this time!"

Quoted: Quoted: One Ranger I talked to in Afghanistan was pissed over Fallujah. I made a comment that the Marines were kicking ass in Fallujah (back in late 2004). He told me it was the Marines fault that Fallujah fell in the first place. According to him Falujah was pacified when the Army gave control of it to the Marines and the Marines let the condition deteriorate into chaos. I don't know how together he had his facts, but the way he talked it sounded like he was in Iraq at one point. If I remember correctly the Army had control over Fallujah until it became a "den" for insurgents and tactical control was turned over to the MARINES. Then again I could be mistaken as I sat this war out at home and allowed the younger MARINE generation to fight this one while I tried to make some money!!! The Chosin Resevoir was not a retreat but a "tactical withdraw". I would suggest asking those 8-10 commie divisions how they faired during this MARINE "retreat". The MARINES were offered the chance to fly out but they had to leave their dead and fighting equipment so this option was rejected. While fighting their way to the sea, they recovered stockpiles of US army equipment and abandoned soldiers a long the way.   Semper Fi, ASO544

According to the book I read, by an Army tank company commander, this was the case.  Fallujah was more or less pacified and progress was being made when they turned it over to the Marines.  

As for the Chosen Resevoir, the Marines didn't retreat.  They just attacked in a different direction.


-K

Quoted: One Ranger I talked to in Afghanistan was pissed over Fallujah. I made a comment that the Marines were kicking ass in Fallujah (back in late 2004). He told me it was the Marines fault that Fallujah fell in the first place. According to him Falujah was pacified when the Army gave control of it to the Marines and the Marines let the condition deteriorate into chaos. .

Which is a complete 180 from somalia where the Marines had things well in hand until 10th mountain and the Rangers fucked it up.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: How bout Somolia?  Does that count? Boy, I think we may need some sort of IQ test to be allowed to post here   I was there in early/mid 1993 and those damn rag-tag clans knew better than to try and make a stand against the USMC. We owned that place, but once the UN took over it went to %$#^!!! Semper Fi, ASO544

+1

MEU never lost a man in Somalia.

-AR15Fan
E-5/USMC
BLT 2/9

Now go to bed as I'm sure you have school tomorrow and I have to get up and shoot machine guns all day. Damn life is hard!

There you go again, Assuming........Shoot machine guns all day huh?  Not bad, I wouldn't mind hitting the range more often but I have a job. Don't worry though,  I do get to practice often. More in common than you know  

Quoted: Have the U.S. Marine Corps ever blown a battle?

The only one I can think of in recent memory is a Marine assault on an island in Vietnam near the end of the war.  

IIRC, the enemy shot down a couple of birds, a number of Marines died in fierce fighting, the Marine attack was repelled, and a handful of of Marines were abandoned on the island and left for dead.

Reference Somalia, the Army and Marines had 2 totally different missions. The SEALs landed first (remember this on live tv) followed by a Marine MEU to guard the food shipments. They controlled Mogadishu albeit amongst rapidly growing hostilities (one event of a Marine E-5 shooting a kid for grabbing his sunglasses and running comes to mind). They were there in mass and the militias did very little to confront them.

The Army on the other hand, was brought in to conduct direct action after the massacre of the 2nd UN patrol in a week. This force (task force Ranger) was only several hundred strong and not intended to control the city as the Marine unit had. The 10th Mountain was not part of Task Force Ranger and not involved in their mission, until of course, things went to shit on Oct 3.

After the battle, Marines did return to the city as a show of force, along with several Army M1's and Bradleys (too little, too late). One of the guys I serve with now, was a Marine scout sniper with 2/5 and saw the wreckage of Super 64 after it was brought back in).

Neither force was too blame, and certainly not a blown battle.

Quoted: Quoted: Have the U.S. Marine Corps ever blown a battle? The only one I can think of in recent memory is a Marine assault on an island in Vietnam near the end of the war.   IIRC, the enemy shot down a couple of birds, a number of Marines died in fierce fighting, the Marine attack was repelled, and a handful of of Marines were abandoned on the island and left for dead.

I do remember being taught this at OCS in our Vietnam POI. Ca't remember the name of the Islands or the operation name for the life of me.

Quoted: Quoted: One Ranger I talked to in Afghanistan was pissed over Fallujah. I made a comment that the Marines were kicking ass in Fallujah (back in late 2004). He told me it was the Marines fault that Fallujah fell in the first place. According to him Falujah was pacified when the Army gave control of it to the Marines and the Marines let the condition deteriorate into chaos. I don't know how together he had his facts, but the way he talked it sounded like he was in Iraq at one point. BWAHAHAHAHA!! That has got to be the funniest thing I've heard in a long time. Tell your friend he's an idiot of epic proportions. As part of the first USMC unit to enter Camp Fallujah in preparation for the handover into USMC control, I can tell you horror stories of how the Army 'handled' <cough> Fallujah.......

And if you recall...

Fallujah was ORIGINALLY held by the Marines.
They turned it over to the 82nd.  The Marines wanted to conduct a thorough RIP. They had Ops and Intel shops that had a wealth of in fo to be turned over.  HUNDREDS of targets -insurgent cells, and their leaders, that they Marines had been tracking.
The 82nd said "no thanks".
All they asked, was for the Marines to ALL pull out of the city, so that the 82nd could do a "combat jump".
Such silliness.

Quoted: Reference Somalia, the Army and Marines had 2 totally different missions. The SEALs landed first (remember this on live tv) followed by a Marine MEU to guard the food shipments. They controlled Mogadishu albeit amongst rapidly growing hostilities (one event of a Marine E-5 shooting a kid for grabbing his sunglasses and running comes to mind). They were there in mass and the militias did very little to confront them. The Army on the other hand, was brought in to conduct direct action after the massacre of the 2nd UN patrol in a week. This force (task force Ranger) was only several hundred strong and not intended to control the city as the Marine unit had. The 10th Mountain was not part of Task Force Ranger and not involved in their mission, until of course, things went to shit on Oct 3. After the battle, Marines did return to the city as a show of force, along with several Army M1's and Bradleys (too little, too late). One of the guys I serve with now, was a Marine scout sniper with 2/5 and saw the wreckage of Super 64 after it was brought back in). Neither force was too blame, and certainly not a blown battle.

+1 but it was force recon not navy seals. i saw it live too; all them frigging journalists lighting them up from the shoreline! i'da opened fire and said i thought the flashbulbs and lights were hostile incoming!

anyone remember that dark green recon marine yelling, "get that fucking light out of my eyes!"

Quoted: Which is a complete 180 from somalia where the Marines had things well in hand until 10th mountain and the Rangers fucked it up.

You=Tard

It's easy to hold peace when you have armor and boatloads of people looking for a fight.

When a group of barely over 100 people are surrounded by an entire city trying to kill them, yet still get away with most of their people alive (with the help of the 10th), I would hardly call that a fuck up.

Quoted: Quoted: While individual Marines showed great bravery, Peleliu was no tactical or strategic masterpiece. Thank Mac for that diaster. He wanted it as a staging point for his precious Phillipines.

Actually it was mostly Nimitz's fault.  He received the information a few days before the invasion that the islands were strongly held and they had captured another group of islands to use for the Phillipines invasion.  He still went ahead with the invasion, which killed a few thousand Marines.

GunLvr

Quoted: Now go to bed as I'm sure you have school tomorrow and I have to get up and shoot machine guns all day. Damn life is hard! There you go again, Assuming........Shoot machine guns all day huh?  Not bad, I wouldn't mind hitting the range more often but I have a job. Don't worry though,  I do get to practice often. More in common than you know

Told you I was a D%#K!!!!!!  

We all have a common thread.....and its the wonderful "Black Rifle".

Carry On,

Semper Fi,
ASO544

All I know is a squad of  Marines picked my sorry ass out of the jungle a long time ago (thanks, guys).  They can do no wrong.

Quoted: Quoted: One Ranger I talked to in Afghanistan was pissed over Fallujah. I made a comment that the Marines were kicking ass in Fallujah (back in late 2004). He told me it was the Marines fault that Fallujah fell in the first place. According to him Falujah was pacified when the Army gave control of it to the Marines and the Marines let the condition deteriorate into chaos. . Which is a complete 180 from somalia where the Marines had things well in hand until 10th mountain and the Rangers fucked it up.

Ummmm, genius, the mission changed. Instead of feeding people and providing aid, politicians decided to do some "social engineering"..................... That changed the situation on the ground.

Quoted: Quoted: One Ranger I talked to in Afghanistan was pissed over Fallujah. I made a comment that the Marines were kicking ass in Fallujah (back in late 2004). He told me it was the Marines fault that Fallujah fell in the first place. According to him Falujah was pacified when the Army gave control of it to the Marines and the Marines let the condition deteriorate into chaos. . Which is a complete 180 from somalia where the Marines had things well in hand until 10th mountain and the Rangers fucked it up.

Different missions for each unit

Don't blame the Marines for what happened in Korea,when I got out of AIT I was sent to Korea!!

I was in the Frontline Engineers(1st Cav) we could not serve in the continental limits of the USA because we had allowed the Marines to be slaughterd in thier sleep!!

Johnson finally alowed the 1st Cav to be regrouped and allowed to return to Nam to win back it's colors!!!

I was in many a fight ,before I just gave up and listened to just about every body and his dog call my patch the Horse that was never ridden,the line that was never crossed,and the color was the reason why!!


Bob

Goettge and the First Matanikau

There are some that make some pretty good arguments that the Makin Raid was pretty screwed up.  Maybe they didn't get beat but it was pretty honked up.

Ma Danby's Grandpa was in the Corps from 35 to 65 , in the First Marines most of the Pacific, and as far as he was concerned, there were several battles that were fucked up.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Have the U.S. Marine Corps ever blown a battle? The only one I can think of in recent memory is a Marine assault on an island in Vietnam near the end of the war.   IIRC, the enemy shot down a couple of birds, a number of Marines died in fierce fighting, the Marine attack was repelled, and a handful of of Marines were abandoned on the island and left for dead. I do remember being taught this at OCS in our Vietnam POI. Ca't remember the name of the Islands or the operation name for the life of me.

1975 Koh Tang island, Cambodia.

Quoted: Goettge and the First Matanikau There are some that make some pretty good arguments that the Makin Raid was pretty screwed up.  Maybe they didn't get beat but it was pretty honked up. Ma Danby's Grandpa was in the Corps from 35 to 65 , in the First Marines most of the Pacific, and as far as he was concerned, there were several battles that were fucked up.

Good responses, all of you, although I was a little dismayed at the hijack-direction that we went with the whole Somalia deal.

Now, I knew asking the question would cause a hassle amongst the "Marines can do no wrong" crowd, but from where I'm standing, only the Army can fuck up better than the Marine Corps.

Quoted: Quoted: Which is a complete 180 from somalia where the Marines had things well in hand until 10th mountain and the Rangers fucked it up. You=Tard It's easy to hold peace when you have armor and boatloads of people looking for a fight. When a group of barely over 100 people are surrounded by an entire city trying to kill them, yet still get away with most of their people alive (with the help of the 10th), I would hardly call that a fuck up.

Again, read Blackhawk Down. The Somalis were good and pissed off with the Rangers well before the actual battle.

All of the ones that they interviewed were pretty clear that their beef with the Rangers was related to the way they did business. The Rangers did an awesome job in the battle.

The Somalis were pissed at the US in general when we stopped just handing out food and started to arrest the warlords.    Giving handouts is fine, but try to protect your own people (and I'm loosely including the UN in this), and it's a whole 'nother game.  Plus when the Marines left, the UN was in charge, and TF Ranger was a lot smaller than the Marine unit that was there, and also remember that the 10th was part of the UN mission.  Not connected at all with TF Ranger.  That's the main reason that it took so long for a rescue mission to be mounted.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: While individual Marines showed great bravery, Peleliu was no tactical or strategic masterpiece. Thank Mac for that diaster. He wanted it as a staging point for his precious Phillipines. Actually it was mostly Nimitz's fault.  He received the information a few days before the invasion that the islands were strongly held and they had captured another group of islands to use for the Phillipines invasion.  He still went ahead with the invasion, which killed a few thousand Marines. GunLvr

While Nimitz ran the Pacific Theater, MacArthur was a defacto Theater commander in his own right.  Nimitz was never onboard with retaking the PI.  His opinion was that it was too strongly defended for all the more utility it had in getting at the Japanese home islands.

The Joint Chiefs (dominated by Marshall) and the President (who had real concerns about MacArthur coming back and running for President as a Repub) told Nimitz to support Mac's southern strategy.

Quoted: The Somalis were pissed at the US in general when we stopped just handing out food and started to arrest the warlords.    Giving handouts is fine, but try to protect your own people (and I'm loosely including the UN in this), and it's a whole 'nother game.

The Aideed clan also perceived that the US was targeting them more than other clans in the Somali AOR at the behest of the UN.  The fact that Boutros Boutros's family had a business relationship with one of Aideed's main rivals did not help matters.