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Posted: 1/28/2006 12:56:26 PM EDT

All -

Do Israeli aircraft have the wherewithall to hit Iran? I'm told they don't have the effective combat range to bomb. Is this true or horsecrap. I'm thinking they could do it if called upon. Anyone know much about their AirForce?

Thanks for the education
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 12:58:37 PM EDT
I remmeber reading this on here before, and I believe the ARFCOM tactitions at that time did indeed declare they are capable of performing missions.

IIRC, they mapped out two route options and all agreed it was indeed a possibility.

Link Posted: 1/28/2006 12:58:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 12:59:27 PM EDT by Pointman_M4A1]
The Israeli Air Force flies US made F15 and F16 fighter, and has bombed the piss out of places such as Iraqi Nuclear Reactors in the past, they can hit Iran easily and if they say they are gonna do it, they will.

Not something to laugh at.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 1:03:26 PM EDT
I would imagine they also have an air tanker that they can use to top off after takeoff to further their range.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 1:06:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 1:14:41 PM EDT
They'll take it by land if need be, so yes, they can reach Iran.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 1:16:48 PM EDT
We'll know soon enough.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 1:20:43 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 1:21:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 1:26:37 PM EDT by Fast_Jimmy]

Originally Posted By Pointman_M4A1:
The Israeli Air Force flies US made F15 and F16 fighter, and has bombed the piss out of places such as Iraqi Nuclear Reactors in the past, they can hit Iran easily and if they say they are gonna do it, they will.

Not something to laugh at.



I wonder if Iraq had TOR-M1, and SA-11 Gadfly SAM's 20 years ago. These things are roughly as capable as the Patriot, if not more so. Also, nothing to laugh at. If they're not taken out first, they will take their toll.

Actually, of course, Iraq had nowhere near those capabilities at the time.

ETA: I hope everyone has noticed that iran, via russian military industries, is bristling with state of the art weapons. Not so much of a problem to the USAF and thousands of strike aircraft, but basically a technological draw against the israelis.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 1:24:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Fast_Jimmy:
I wonder if Iraq had TOR-M1, and SA-11 Gadfly SAM's 20 years ago. These things are roughly as capable as the Patriot, if not more so...



Sure they are, because Russian high-tech weapons have such an outstanding track record...
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 1:26:55 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 1:42:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 1:43:48 PM EDT by Fast_Jimmy]

Originally Posted By Tomislav:

Originally Posted By Fast_Jimmy:
I wonder if Iraq had TOR-M1, and SA-11 Gadfly SAM's 20 years ago. These things are roughly as capable as the Patriot, if not more so...



Sure they are, because Russian high-tech weapons have such an outstanding track record...



We'd better hope they're full of BS, and that these missiles do not work as advertised. The TOR system is listed with a .6 to .9 probablity of taking out cruise missiles and smart ordinance dropped from alititude, not to mention it's ability against low flying aircraft. It does not need to be aligned along an axis like the patriot and requires only five minutes of warm up time, as opposed to 30 minutes. At least the iranians only bought 29 vehicles with 8 missiles each.

Unless, of course, they're full of crap. Hope so.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 2:25:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 2:28:51 PM EDT by MurdockTheCrazy]
Israel has more than enough range to hit any target in Iran. That wouldn’t be the hard part.

Israel also has weapons that would be effective even against Iran’s most deeply buried targets, without sacrificing too much range out of the fighter aircraft.


The main problem is the required airspace violations to reach Iran.

That doesn’t matter, however, if the West doesn’t do something about Iran soon, Israel will strike with or without the backing of anyone else. Even if that means violating Iraqi airspace unwelcome. There would be political hell to pay, but it wouldn’t stop the mission.

The Iranian air defenses are not as much of a concern as western intelligence [which is a contradiction in terms] would like to make them out to be. I’m not going to expand on that, but take my word for it that Israel has EW systems that will knock the socks off any modern Russian air defense system.



I will even make the point that Israel is capable of strikes against Moscow, and IAF pilots are trained for such.

I don’t understand why people keep trying to underestimate the IAF, it must be painful to be on the wrong side of military history so many times in a row.


But hey, I'm not complaining .
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 2:25:49 PM EDT
Yes and they will.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 2:39:44 PM EDT
Anyone remember something called the Yon Kippur War? If Israel wants to take out Iran, it will. And they'll want to do it before Iran goes nuclear.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 2:48:20 PM EDT
Isreal has allready attacked Iran once, bombing a suspected nucler plant. IIRC it was in the 80s.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 2:52:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 2:53:03 PM EDT by david_g17]
some food for thought:

http://www.middleeastinfo.org/article4695.html


August 20, 2004 By NAZILA FATHI, New York Times TEHRAN, Aug. 19 - Iran's defense minister, Vice Adm. Ali Shamkhani, has warned that Iran may resort to pre-emptive strikes to prevent an attack on its nuclear facilities. Admiral Shamkhani made his comments in an interview on Al Jazeera television on Wednesday in response to a question about the possibility of an American or Israeli attack against Iran's nuclear projects.
"We will not sit to wait for what others will do to us," he said. "Some military commanders in Iran are convinced that preventive operations which the Americans talk about are not their monopoly. Any nation, if it feels threatened, can resort to that."

There has been speculation here that Israel may attack Iran's nuclear sites, as it struck against Iraq's nuclear facilities at Osirak in 1981.

A commander of Iran's hard-line Revolutionary Guards warned this week that Iran would strike Israel's reactor at Dimona if Israel attacked Iran's nuclear sites.

"If Israel fires one missile at Bushehr atomic power plant, it should permanently forget about the Dimona nuclear center, where it produces and keeps its nuclear weapons," said the commander, Gen. Mohammad Baqer Zolqadr.

Admiral Shamkhani said Iran was certain that Israel would not carry out such an attack without a green light from the United States. "So you cannot separate the two," he said.

On Thursday, Foreign Minister Kamal Kharazi urged the International Atomic Energy Agency to close its file on charges that Iran was developing nuclear weapons, state-run television reported. This month, the United Nations agency affirmed Iran's claim that the highly enriched uranium found at an Iranian site had been carried in on equipment Iran purchased in the black market.

"If the case is not closed, it intensifies the suspicion about interference of political motives and pressures within the agency," Mr. Kharazi said.

The nuclear watchdog agency is scheduled to report its findings on Iran's nuclear activities at a meeting in Vienna starting Sept. 13. The United States has urged the agency to send Iran's case to the United Nations Security Council, which can impose sanctions.

Link Posted: 1/28/2006 3:05:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By david_g17:
some food for thought:

http://www.middleeastinfo.org/article4695.html


August 20, 2004 By NAZILA FATHI, New York Times TEHRAN, Aug. 19 - Iran's defense minister, Vice Adm. Ali Shamkhani, has warned that Iran may resort to pre-emptive strikes to prevent an attack on its nuclear facilities. Admiral Shamkhani made his comments in an interview on Al Jazeera television on Wednesday in response to a question about the possibility of an American or Israeli attack against Iran's nuclear projects.
"We will not sit to wait for what others will do to us," he said. "Some military commanders in Iran are convinced that preventive operations which the Americans talk about are not their monopoly. Any nation, if it feels threatened, can resort to that."

There has been speculation here that Israel may attack Iran's nuclear sites, as it struck against Iraq's nuclear facilities at Osirak in 1981.

A commander of Iran's hard-line Revolutionary Guards warned this week that Iran would strike Israel's reactor at Dimona if Israel attacked Iran's nuclear sites.

"If Israel fires one missile at Bushehr atomic power plant, it should permanently forget about the Dimona nuclear center, where it produces and keeps its nuclear weapons," said the commander, Gen. Mohammad Baqer Zolqadr.

Admiral Shamkhani said Iran was certain that Israel would not carry out such an attack without a green light from the United States. "So you cannot separate the two," he said.

On Thursday, Foreign Minister Kamal Kharazi urged the International Atomic Energy Agency to close its file on charges that Iran was developing nuclear weapons, state-run television reported. This month, the United Nations agency affirmed Iran's claim that the highly enriched uranium found at an Iranian site had been carried in on equipment Iran purchased in the black market.

"If the case is not closed, it intensifies the suspicion about interference of political motives and pressures within the agency," Mr. Kharazi said.

The nuclear watchdog agency is scheduled to report its findings on Iran's nuclear activities at a meeting in Vienna starting Sept. 13. The United States has urged the agency to send Iran's case to the United Nations Security Council, which can impose sanctions.




It would be mighty tough for the Iranian's to hit that facility as the IDF's Arrow TMD system is extremely capable.


The Arrow 2 system can detect and track incoming missiles as far way as 500 km and can intercept missiles 50-90 km away [some sources suggest the engagement range is 16 to 48km]. The Arrow 2 uses a terminally-guided interceptor warhead to destroy an incoming missile from its launch at an altitude of 10 to 40km at nine times the speed of sound. Since the missile does not need to directly hit the target--detonation within 40-50 meters is sufficient to disable an incoming warhead. The command and control system is designed to respond to as many as 14 simultaneous intercepts.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 3:09:41 PM EDT


"If Israel fires one missile at Bushehr atomic power plant, it should permanently forget about the Dimona nuclear center, where it produces and keeps its nuclear weapons," said the commander, Gen. Mohammad Baqer Zolqadr.


Yeah, keep believing that, Achmed. The warheads on those Jericho IRBMs are filled with gumdrops, fairy dust, and love.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 7:01:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 7:03:48 PM EDT by MurdockTheCrazy]

Originally Posted By TheCynic:


"If Israel fires one missile at Bushehr atomic power plant, it should permanently forget about the Dimona nuclear center, where it produces and keeps its nuclear weapons," said the commander, Gen. Mohammad Baqer Zolqadr.


Yeah, keep believing that, Achmed. The warheads on those Jericho IRBMs are filled with gumdrops, fairy dust, and love.




No, they're filled with Gelt, Charoset and Matzah.


Link Posted: 1/28/2006 7:21:05 PM EDT
I had a tour of Dimona once. No wonder my nads glow in the dark.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 7:30:48 PM EDT
IIRC the Israelis also have cruise missils that they could use.


-K
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 7:42:06 PM EDT
No weapon forged against the nation of Israel will prevail. Isaiah 54:17
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 8:27:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 8:28:10 PM EDT by mwood65]
They should just fire Nukes at Iran, If they fall short they will only land on Iraq. Thats not so bad, there isnt anyone there we should be worrying abo....... OH SHIT!

Get our guys out now !!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 8:32:45 PM EDT
If Israel decided to launch a full fledged air war against Iran it would be over as soon as it began, no contest.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 8:33:39 PM EDT
Never Mind...
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 8:38:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1shott:
Isreal has allready attacked Iran once, bombing a suspected nucler plant. IIRC it was in the 80s.



That was a nuclear plant in Iraq not Iran. I read recently that Israel has military based in Northern Iraqs Kurdish region.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 8:54:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Danger_Close:
No weapon forged against the nation of Israel will prevail. Isaiah 54:17



I think the nukes are cast.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 10:00:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 10:04:51 PM EDT by Rem300UM]
Sure they can, with our help!
Help them refuel midair
(Did I say that outloud?)
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 10:09:07 PM EDT
The Israeli Air Force has carried out two long-range operations in the past. One was the hostage rescue at Entebbe, using C-130s, which have a long range anyway. The other one, which is much less publicised, was the raid on PLO camps in Tunisia using F-15s in 1985, which in terms of distance is about the same as from Israel to the farthest corner of Iran.

So yes, if they could carry out bombing strikes in Tunisia in 1985, it's a definite that they can bomb Iran in 2006.

NTM
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 10:13:41 PM EDT
They can get there, that's all I'm sure of.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 10:22:30 PM EDT
They can reach Iran and drop ordinance, no problem.

I don't think they have anywhere near the capabilities required to significantly reduce Irans capability to make war via conventional munitions.

If Isreal preemptively goes nuclear anything, and I mean ANYTHING, could happen.

If they go in with a conventional strike they'll take as many casualties as they inflict, lots of unconventional tactics Iran can employ, many of them targeted at the entire western world (missile attacks, oil infrastructure, hormuz, terror, Iraq, mass Hamas rocket attacks, sunburns sinking shipping...)

No easy solutions to this mess.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 10:29:20 PM EDT
Wow-just thinking about this makes me want to go get lots of popcorn and licorice!!!
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 11:38:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mak:

Originally Posted By 1shott:
Isreal has allready attacked Iran once, bombing a suspected nucler plant. IIRC it was in the 80s.



That was a nuclear plant in Iraq not Iran. I read recently that Israel has military based in Northern Iraqs Kurdish region.




Ahhh OK,thanks.....
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 11:44:43 PM EDT
Israel will fucking rape Iran, I only wish I could participate.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 12:02:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rem300UM:
Sure they can, with our help!
Help them refuel midair
(Did I say that outloud?)



And we and the Brits need to let them fly over Iraq, or the Saudis and Kuwaitis let them fly over their airspace. Although the Saudis might let them do it and squawk later. The Saudi Royal Family doesn't need Iran nuclear anymore than we do.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 2:51:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 3:44:47 AM EDT
they will be able to get there, bomb the target, and return with little or no problem because they can refuel in the air over Iraq........you know we do own Iraq now, right?
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 3:58:52 AM EDT
Yes.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 4:01:46 AM EDT
Mystery KC-10/ KC-135 theory
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 4:28:14 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 6:53:29 AM EDT
Thanks guys. Seems I'm just arguing with a "can't do" naysayer on another board. How silly of me.

" There is a problem with your assertion. The F-15's would need to be refueled ( probably twice, once there and once back). This would have to be with IAF tankers circling over most likely Iraq to meet up with the F-15's during any flight. The Iraqi govt. would not accept such. If the US govt. were to override the Iraqi govt. firstly it would look very bad for the US diplomatically in Iraq and it would put the US in the middle of it all and they would have to accept any fallout as if they themselves were to carry out the mission. In such case why not just the use US air assets? Without aerial refueling the Israeli air force has no ability to carry out any such attack.

Next even if some such attack were planned it would require dozens of IAF F-15's searching out and trying to nail most Iranian nuclear sites. Now since these are not easy to find in many cases and in some cases buried deep underground the IAF has no bombs nor platform to carry out any such operation. But Les what if the US gave Israel some MOAB's then they could use their Hercules aircraft? Well first of they'd have to know where exactly these buried sites are as these are free fall bombs. Next does anyone here think a IAF Hercules would not be shot from the sky by ther Iranians even before it could deliver it's MOAB?"

Link Posted: 1/30/2006 12:51:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2006 12:54:21 AM EDT by MurdockTheCrazy]

Originally Posted By No-Worries:
There is a problem with your assertion. The F-15's would need to be refueled ( probably twice, once there and once back).



Not true at all, I don't know where this guy got his range estimates. Assuming they top off before leaving Israeli airspace, Israeli F-15s could strike any target in Iran and make it back to Israeli airspace on a single fuel tank, with gas to spare.


This would have to be with IAF tankers circling over most likely Iraq to meet up with the F-15's during any flight.


Not needed, as said above.

However, it could be done without a problem. The United States and or Iraq is not going to shoot down a tanker, and messing with a midflight refueling operation is an act of war. The United States would get pissed off, but in the end would not stop the mission once started.

I wouldn't be suprised if the US cuts off all arms supplies to Israel after the fact, but that has happened to Israel before, why give a shit?



The Iraqi govt. would not accept such.


The Iraq government is not powerful enough to scratch its own ass without help from the United States.


If the US govt. were to override the Iraqi govt.


There's nothing to override, the Iraqis do not control their airspace at this time. Traffic control, yes, airspace force projection, no.


firstly it would look very bad for the US diplomatically in Iraq and it would put the US in the middle of it all


Ummmm... We're talking about Israel here, not the United States. Israel will do what she must to survive, to hell with whoever it pisses off.


and they would have to accept any fallout as if they themselves were to carry out the mission.


Not Israel's problem.


In such case why not just the use US air assets?


Oh... I don't know... Maybe the fact that the United States seems to be lead by a bunch of limp wristed idiots who genuinly don't care if a nuclear warhead falls on Tel Aviv.


Without aerial refueling the Israeli air force has no ability to carry out any such attack.


Bullshit, the combat radius of an F-15I is much longer than most people think. If topped off after takeoff, F-15s will have no problem hitting targets anywhere in Iran.

Of course, some armchair general who reads 'Janes pocket guide to aircraft' and plays flight sims is going to act like he knows everything. Ignore the fact he's never even seen an F-15I up close. Ignore the fact he doesn't know a single IAF pilot, his books tell him so. Books which, may I add, do not state the actual range of any modern combat aircraft, various governments get pissed off when their exact combat abilities are made public, hence, they don't make the real ones public.



Next even if some such attack were planned it would require dozens of IAF F-15's searching out and trying to nail most Iranian nuclear sites.


Not if they know where they are ahead of time.


Now since these are not easy to find in many cases


Only to westerners who have no idea how to conduct intelligence operations.


and in some cases buried deep underground the IAF has no bombs nor platform to carry out any such operation.


Bawahahahaha. And he would know this, how?

Keep thinking that, I'd like Iran to think it too, it'll make the looks on their faces so much more priceless when their toys get smashed.




But Les what if the US gave Israel some MOAB's then they could use their Hercules aircraft?


How the hell would that help? The MOAB isn't a deep penetrating weapon, it's simply a big surface bomb.

You could go with the theory that the shockwave might do damage to the bunkers, but there is no way to know that for sure.

It's much simpler to just drop some of the weapons currently in Israels inventory that fit on F-15s and can take out said bunkers.



Well first of they'd have to know where exactly these buried sites are


See above, if I may remind certain know-it-alls, Israel has the best middle east intelligence in the world, period. We know more about Irans nuclear programs than the United States knows about its own nuclear systems.


as these are free fall bombs.


That statement doesn't make much sense, the MOAB is free-fall, but is also guided, you would not need to know the target location any more or less than for any other smart weapon.


Next does anyone here think a IAF Hercules would not be shot from the sky by ther Iranians even before it could deliver it's MOAB?



Why would they need to when they can use weapons that fit on F-15s?
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 1:55:12 AM EDT
A neat map on this topic:

Link Posted: 1/30/2006 2:15:27 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 6:42:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By Tomislav:
A neat map on this topic:

www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/images/swa-map1.gif



Well lets see.... Ignoring Iraq for a minute, if you take a direct route you need to overfly Jordan, (F16's and Mirage F1's) and/or Saudi Arabia, (F15's, Tornado F3's) , Kuwait, (F-18's), Syria, (Mig 29's, SU-27's) who all may have 'issues' with univited 'guests'...



Andy,
You know as well as I do that good flight profile and route planning and typical Arab unpreparedness would mean that the IAF will be long gone before any alarms are sounded.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 8:52:10 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 8:56:07 AM EDT
I think I'll trust Israeli intelligence before I'll trust ours anytime soon. I suspect they are working a lot harder to keep track of Iranian efforts than we think. Certainly they have a lot more at stake short term.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 8:57:54 AM EDT
Don't forget, guys, that if Israel really feels the threat is serious enough then they may be prepared for some of those sorties to be entirely one-way.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 8:59:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sylvan:

Originally Posted By PaDanby:

Originally Posted By Rem300UM:
Sure they can, with our help!
Help them refuel midair
(Did I say that outloud?)



And we and the Brits need to let them fly over Iraq, or the Saudis and Kuwaitis let them fly over their airspace. Although the Saudis might let them do it and squawk later. The Saudi Royal Family doesn't need Iran nuclear anymore than we do.


Helping Israel bomb Iran is NOT going to help us in Iraq. We could completely inflame the Shias and the Sunnis.
I doubt the Kurds would give a shit.



If the Jews pop the cork then it's not gonna matter who's hosting the dance. Everyone's gonna be in the mosh-pit before it's over. The ROPers will use it as an excuse and blame us no matter what.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 9:01:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2006 9:01:41 AM EDT by ArmedAggie]

Originally Posted By Tomislav:
A neat map on this topic:




You can almost bet that Iran has been busy moving their nuke sites to that southeast corner by Pakistan. Further from Israel and closer to Pakistan, who is as unreliable an ally as can be
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