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Posted: 8/9/2001 8:37:31 AM EDT
Here is the scenario. You are tasked to gather intelligence and engage targets of opportunity. You are in a conventional two man sniper team. Your country is engaged in a limited war. Neither you, nor the enemy has artillery or forward air support. You and your spotter have just reached an enemy fire base when higher calls and tells you to high tail back to an LZ 1K away for extract. You are 700m away. You can only engage with one shot because you want to reduce their ability to locate you. No high value equipment or officers are visible. Time is crucial so you can't wait around for the perfect target. Your spotter has just given you the dope to put on your scope. These are your visible targets. 1.RTO screwing with radio. 2.NCO, what appears to be a platoon sergeant. 3.PK machinegun crew. 4.Priest/ Holy man giving some sort of sermon/rites. 5.Soldier carrying AK74 w/ RGP7 in backpack. Who do you engage? Why? I'll give my answer at 1330 EST. Don't be all gay and say "I would call in the Justice League of America to fly in and beat up all the bad guys." Stick to the scenario.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 8:45:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2001 8:43:46 AM EDT by Major-Murphy]
1. Plt SGT.-He's the toughest to replace. Could cause absolute chaos within the unit. 2. RTO-Momentary Chaos, can't report sniper presence to higher. Might help with extract. 3. Priest-Horror. Demonstrates our resolve. 4. toss up between MG and Soldier w/ RPG (1700m, RPG7 should pose no threat to extract, MG little)
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 8:46:57 AM EDT
NCO, just because he's the only one of rank. Killing the religious leader is only gonna strengthen their will to kill you. Somebody else probably knows how to work radio,RPG,and RPK. I am no expert on this, though.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 8:47:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2001 8:46:44 AM EDT by Arock]
I would reduce the radio. And RTO if he was inline. C3 cut reduces the firebase's ability to perform mission.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 8:50:30 AM EDT
...good point about the chaplain. Need more data. Wouldn't kill a muslim cleric.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 8:54:27 AM EDT
I'd too go for the NCO.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 8:55:35 AM EDT
I would try and damage the radio so they would not be able to communicate.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 8:56:40 AM EDT
I agree w/ Arock take the radio, assuming we didn't didi as ordered.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 8:58:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2001 9:05:21 AM EDT by SGB]
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 8:58:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By nko51: I would try and damage the radio so they would not be able to communicate.
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samesame
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 9:11:18 AM EDT
Once they know that they have been discovered, any information gathered will be of little value. I'd just make a panoramic sketch.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 9:13:30 AM EDT
Not radio, as it might not be the only one they have. There is no artillery or FAS to call. Forget the weapons operators or RTO, somebody else will pick it up and use it. Forget the weapons, too many to pick from. Not NCO, higher ranking guy or next lower will take charge. If only have one shot, kill the Holy Man. If Higher Power (God) lets you, the enemy kill him, what's in store for the others should they come after you? This may create enough confusion to allow you to escape.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 9:13:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2001 9:11:51 AM EDT by sharky30]
as a civilian with no military experience except some reading and history channel shows, I'd pick the NCO or radio guy. Radio itself if I could get a shot at it. NCO would screw up their chain of command to some degree, with luck the radio guy is one of only a few on the base with the needed skills to repair radio equipment. The MG crew could probably be replaced easily. I'd only shoot a priest if he was shooting at me. But as I said, I have no military experience.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 9:16:03 AM EDT
I would agree, but for this: "engage targets of opportunity" There are many options here because of the brief op-order.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 9:20:08 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 9:22:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2001 9:19:29 AM EDT by SGB]
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 9:23:34 AM EDT
None of the above. Orders to high tail it out of there usually mean right now and there may be a reason they said high tail it. There is no target here worth risking discovery, especially when extraction is imminent, as you also put them at risk by stirring up a hornet's nest.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 9:27:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2001 9:25:32 AM EDT by Major-Murphy]
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter: Unless the mission dictated that I HAD to take a shot, I wouldn't... none of those are high-value targets of opportunity, and they are awful close to the LZ and could cause problems if you get them stirred up, screwing up your extraction. Gather intel and go home. [blue]Value is relative. We would need to know what the higher mission is, and the purpose of this enemy "firebase"....[/blue] If pressed to take a shot, the NCO would go. The radio loses much of its value as a high-value target as the enemy has no fire support or foward air support.
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...absolutely.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 9:29:41 AM EDT
Killing the priest is a violation of the laws of armed conflict and therefore the laws of the US and the UCMJ. On top of this, it might have an adverse impact on PR and may strengthen the enemies will to fight which would prolong the conflict.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 9:31:48 AM EDT
I would take out the NCO. They(leaders) are usually the most experienced, educated. They are of the most value to the enemy. If It were possible to hit two with the same shot I would do that. No matter who it was. Two hits with one shot would terrify them.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 9:34:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2001 9:31:22 AM EDT by Major-Murphy]
Against the Laws of war??...so is shooting at troops with a .50 cal or Mk19. Terrain would be helpful info, here. If it is jungle or forest, extract shouldn't be a problem. The enemy will have difficulty locating the shooter, and with that head start (if they gave chase), they would be a km away when you're boarding the helos. If it's desert or grassland, no shot.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 9:36:27 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 9:43:55 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 9:44:42 AM EDT
11BravoE5 it's 1335 hours EST. We're turning blades outta here. Your ass is stuck in the jungle.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 9:46:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SGB: Original Primary order is to gather Intel, secondary order is to engage Targets of opertunity. sgb
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...that's not exactly how it's written. "You are tasked to gather intelligence and engage targets of opportunity." Not: "Your primary mission is..." It's nit-picking, but that's what it says.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 9:48:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2001 10:57:34 AM EDT by JIMBEAM]
Is the Holy Man wearing an uniform? I believe the Geneva Convention states that you should(((n't))) target medical personnel but I don't remember what it said about Holy Men.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 9:49:44 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 9:54:53 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 9:58:19 AM EDT
hahahah! yep, your right on that one!! [beer]
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 10:02:55 AM EDT
...damn soldiers. Bunch of hump-drops.[;)]
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 10:04:32 AM EDT
Major Murphy - I'm pretty sure that that is a myth. I was taught that it is perfectly legal to engage people with the .50 SASR. OK, my answer. I would kill the chaplain because of the demoralizing effect it would have on the enemy. They would know that we are truly evil, scary people that don't give a fuck; and it would show that our "magic" is more powerful than theirs, or their god doesn't care about them. The RGP/PK/radio people can be replaced. If it was a theater wide, strategic plan our side had, like kill all the mortar base plate carriers, then I would whack whichever one was designated. The NVA couldn't force troops to carry baseplates after we tagged every one we saw. Most countries rely on officers to lead. If this was the case then an NCO doesn't matter too much. If they have a strong NCO corps, then another NCO would just step up. Intel won't change too much - it's a fire base. They won't pack up and move just because a single rifle shot came their way. If I've got the chance to kill someone I'm going to. No way I'd leave without taking a shot. I don't care if only two privates were visible. A one shot kill has a great psychological effect.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 10:06:48 AM EDT
But they would reinforce.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 10:07:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2001 10:05:38 AM EDT by Major-Murphy]
I'm a little disappointed.... (BTW, by .50 cal, I meant "Ma Duece")
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 10:08:41 AM EDT
Sorry about that. Got hit with a near ambush by a roast beef sandwich.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 10:10:47 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 10:12:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Major-Murphy: (BTW, by .50 cal, I meant "Ma Duece")
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I ain't humping that thing around! I don't even think that they make a Giles sling for it.[:D]
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 10:17:41 AM EDT
Major Murphy- .50s and Mk 19s are NOT forbidden fruit as anti personnell weaps. At least their use does not violate the Hague accords and the often referred to (wrongly) Geneva convention. US policy, at least when I was trained, however, was to declare certain uses of weapons inefficient, for lack of a better word. Can't remember the term. In a pinch, however, green light. Ever hear the arty radio response to a "infantry in the open" fire mission? Yup, specialty antipersonnel rounds get pretty damned big. (BTW, I have never heard it, either, at least not during a war. I am not a veteran, and am merely reciting observations from training courtesy of Uncle Sugar.) I mean, they make buckshot rounds in 40mm, right? What are they for, deer wave attacks? Sorry, just bothers me when I see urban legends repeated.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 10:23:43 AM EDT
Hey 11BangBang, Bet you wouldn't be stoppin' for no roast beef sandwich if Charlie was after your ass![:D]
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 10:31:08 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 10:34:29 AM EDT
In "fallout tactics" you can carry an M2. Makes things interesting :)
Originally Posted By 11BravoE5:
Originally Posted By Major-Murphy: (BTW, by .50 cal, I meant "Ma Duece")
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I ain't humping that thing around! I don't even think that they make a Giles sling for it.[:D]
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Link Posted: 8/9/2001 10:48:33 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 10:50:59 AM EDT
the m2 and mk 19 deal you can use them on any targets you like with all combatants being legal it just woudnt be wise to waste all those 40mm grenades on one man aim for area targets you know like end of day formations. oh and ah yeah shoot the chaplain hes a enmy chaplain i didnt recognize the insignia and there officers too.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 10:57:02 AM EDT
fallout:tactics is so sweet. ESP when you have a big dude with an M2 firing depleted uranium shells. alphabeta121
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 11:08:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2001 11:14:21 AM EDT by Nekkid80]
I'd go for none of the above. Definately shoot the subject with the bolt gun, the dog, than the handler. Maybe an officer will show his head at a later date? Why make the Holy Man holier?[:D] It will make them more willing to fight most likely. I guess it depends on the beliefs of the subjects.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 11:08:52 AM EDT
11BB I'm sticking with the reducing the radio. In spite of the 1500m LZ, the most opfor is going to do is send out a patrol. Think "lose com and helo(s) on the way in". They're going to sit tight and see what's developing. Hopefully the LZ has cover, lacking that the most you're going to get is small arms. The diversion might even improve my extraction odds with that close LZ. If it's my ass on the line.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 11:17:35 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 11:21:12 AM EDT
It says Intel and targets of opertunity. That means gather intelegence and if you stumble upon some idiot takin a leak cap him. If not don't screw the mission over get the intel then bail. After all you could know somthing very immportant and you take the time to shoot some NCO and you get caught or killed what does that do for your country? Absolutly nothing cause they don't have that info and now that fire base is on alert cause they know you have been nosing around. Also you are reported to the higher echolons. So now all the bases are on alert and they are activly hunting your comrades. So I say pass up this opertunity to strike an almost insignificant blow and come back another day when you can get some one of immportance. [sniper]
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 11:25:51 AM EDT
A 800 yard (or was that meters) shot on a human sized target is not easy... Hitting a radio (probably smaller than a human) would be harder. Making a "snap" shot with the helo "on it's way" is gonna be even harder... Remember,this is "indian country"... and this is a "UKD range"....you have to range using passive means, estimate wind correct and make a COLD BORE SHOT... Oh, and for the leathality of a .50........ I have treated patients with their arms torn completely off, and they lived. Are we talking explosives here or a HPBT... how accurate are the "anti-material" rounds for the .50, and just how accurate is the barrett weapon system...
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 11:37:44 AM EDT
After all you could know somthing very immportant and you take the time to shoot some NCO and you get caught or killed what does that do for your country? Absolutly nothing cause they don't have that info and now that fire base is on alert cause they know you have been nosing around. Also you are reported to the higher echolons. So now all the bases are on alert and they are activly hunting your comrades.
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Then again, is having every enemy base worried about snipers such a bad thing? If two snipers can keep 10,000 enemy soldiers busy ducking their heads down instead of doing their jobs, that seems like a very efficient use of manpower.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 11:47:12 AM EDT
If what would normally be considered a typical noncombatants is aiding in the enemy's war effort whether they are women, children, nuns, or monks, they are legitimate targets.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 11:47:53 AM EDT
Ummm, medicjim... A "human sized target" at 800 yards is a gimme. A staionary radio is easier. My last session on the 1k yard range (4 weeks ago) gave me 7 inch 5-shot groups. With 49 other .50's battery firing around me. Doping the wind and all that. Range estimation at 800 yds is a gimme too. All I want is that radio. But in the real world I'd be shooting a .308 or .300WM so it'd be easier.
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