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Posted: 1/12/2006 6:38:53 AM EDT
It urks me that these guys think they are such tuff shit and yet shovel so much crap; mianly about weapons. They dont know and sks from and AK, how good could they be? I guess you have to have a jackass attitude to get up enough courage to go againts a high point wearing full lvl 3 body armor; only to then act like you took out Capone.

I found it really funny last week on Dallas SWAT where the team leader being the sniper said his role was vital due to him giving the other team mates cover. It all made sense except for the fact he was ground level and behind a chain link fence with no real way to give cover.

i sure hope we never have a situation were there are some Bad guys well armed that know how to use tactics. Dallas SWAT better stick to the crack houses
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 6:43:10 AM EDT
For the tuff jobs Texas has Chuck Norris the Texas Ranger, SWAT is just for show.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 6:43:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2006 6:46:20 AM EDT by John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted By Arsenal:
It urks me that these guys think they are such tuff shit and yet shovel so much crap; mianly about weapons. They dont know and sks from and AK, how good could they be? I guess you have to have a jackass attitude to get up enough courage to go againts a high point wearing full lvl 3 body armor; only to then act like you took out Capone.



Perhaps you don't know this, but a Hi-Point will kill you just as dead as a 5,000 dollar sniper rifle. And the SKS and the AK fire the same round, in case you didn't know.



I found it really funny last week on Dallas SWAT where the team leader being the sniper said his role was vital due to him giving the other team mates cover. It all made sense except for the fact he was ground level and behind a chain link fence with no real way to give cover.



Ever been a sniper? Ever been covered by a sniper? No?

Then you have no idea how much cover a sniper can give, skippy. When a team is approaching a target or stacking to make an entry, all sorts of nasty stuff can happen to them because that is when they are most vulnerable. If someone is trying to ambush them or is in a position to take away the initiative of their assault, a sniper can protect them. If there is a bad guy unseen by the entry team, the sniper can often see them and deal with them. The entry team can also depend on the sniper for intel on movements inside the location they are going to assault. If the team encounters hostile fire and gets pinned down, the sniper can often break up the attack on them with a well placed round or two.

There have been numerous instances where a sniper has done just that, especially in military circles. Ask some of the fellows in Iraq if snipers provide any cover.

Our boys in Iraq LOVE snipers.



i sure hope we never have a situation were there are some Bad guys well armed that know how to use tactics. Dallas SWAT better stick to the crack houses



Dallas SWAT is probably a hell of a lot better at dealing with bad guys than YOU are, Mr. Chairborne Ranger...
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 6:45:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Arsenal:
It urks me that these guys think they are such tuff shit and yet shovel so much crap; mianly about weapons. They dont know and sks from and AK, how good could they be? I guess you have to have a jackass attitude to get up enough courage to go againts a high point wearing full lvl 3 body armor; only to then act like you took out Capone.

I found it really funny last week on Dallas SWAT where the team leader being the sniper said his role was vital due to him giving the other team mates cover. It all made sense except for the fact he was ground level and behind a chain link fence with no real way to give cover.

i sure hope we never have a situation were there are some Bad guys well armed that know how to use tactics. Dallas SWAT better stick to the crack houses

- Why don't you go show them how its done Johnny HighSpeed?
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 6:46:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:
- Why don't you go show them how its done Johnny HighSpeed?



Indeed.

Sign up! You should be able to teach them suckers a thing or two.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 6:47:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:
Why don't you go show them how its done Johnny HighSpeed?





It's a lot easier to talk tough on the Internet.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 6:48:33 AM EDT
To much talking, not enough bang.

Link Posted: 1/12/2006 6:49:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
To much talking, not enough bang.


- Speaking of bangs... some of those guys bang the hell out of a house.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 6:54:21 AM EDT
Little on the harsh side there Arsenal. I thought that overall the guys were professional and very slow to violence - which is what I want from a SWAT team as a citizen. However, they did seem to overdo it a bit on the guns and how dangerous the guys they took down were. Not that they don't have a dangerous job, and I respect that, but five dumbasses in a crack house are not the IRA. I suspect, however, that they are really hamming for the cameras and are not that bad in real life.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 6:55:05 AM EDT
I caught one last night. Dallas SWAT? I don't know. I don't watch enough TV to keep them straight.

They took down a crack house. They said there was somekind of trap inside the front door. They could get stuck in there, and get shot. (I need to make one of those.) Gangs were shooting at them from other houses. Hard to tell with the editing, but it looked like it took them quite a while to breach this house. Finally the guy just crawled out.

It was okay. They did have some nice select fire 11.5" ers.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 6:57:00 AM EDT
I caught part of the Dallas SWAT show - couldn't believe it when they raided some meth cook's apt. and didn't shoot his Pit! The dog just ran around wagging it's tail sniffing everyone.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 6:57:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:
Why don't you go show them how its done Johnny HighSpeed?





It's a lot easier to talk tough on the Internet.





Link Posted: 1/12/2006 6:58:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By efpeter:
I caught one last night. Dallas SWAT? I don't know. I don't watch enough TV to keep them straight.

They took down a crack house. They said there was somekind of trap inside the front door. They could get stuck in there, and get shot. (I need to make one of those.) Gangs were shooting at them from other houses. Hard to tell with the editing, but it looked like it took them quite a while to breach this house. Finally the guy just crawled out.

It was okay. They did have some nice select fire 11.5" ers.

- I think last night was Texas SWAT on Court TV. I never heard them go ingot detail about what kind of mantrap had been set inside the house. I was really expecting that call to become a baricaded shooter when the shots started going off.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 6:59:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By Arsenal:
It urks me that these guys think they are such tuff shit and yet shovel so much crap; mianly about weapons. They dont know and sks from and AK, how good could they be? I guess you have to have a jackass attitude to get up enough courage to go againts a high point wearing full lvl 3 body armor; only to then act like you took out Capone.



Perhaps you don't know this, but a Hi-Point will kill you just as dead as a 5,000 dollar sniper rifle. And the SKS and the AK fire the same round, in case you didn't know.



I found it really funny last week on Dallas SWAT where the team leader being the sniper said his role was vital due to him giving the other team mates cover. It all made sense except for the fact he was ground level and behind a chain link fence with no real way to give cover.



Ever been a sniper? Ever been covered by a sniper? No?

Then you have no idea how much cover a sniper can give, skippy. When a team is approaching a target or stacking to make an entry, all sorts of nasty stuff can happen to them because that is when they are most vulnerable. If someone is trying to ambush them or is in a position to take away the initiative of their assault, a sniper can protect them. If there is a bad guy unseen by the entry team, the sniper can often see them and deal with them. The entry team can also depend on the sniper for intel on movements inside the location they are going to assault. If the team encounters hostile fire and gets pinned down, the sniper can often break up the attack on them with a well placed round or two.

There have been numerous instances where a sniper has done just that, especially in military circles. Ask some of the fellows in Iraq if snipers provide any cover.

Our boys in Iraq LOVE snipers.



i sure hope we never have a situation were there are some Bad guys well armed that know how to use tactics. Dallas SWAT better stick to the crack houses



Dallas SWAT is probably a hell of a lot better at dealing with bad guys than YOU are, Mr. Chairborne Ranger...



your a cop .. right?
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:01:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2006 7:04:24 AM EDT by John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted By happycynic:
Little on the harsh side there Arsenal. I thought that overall the guys were professional and very slow to violence - which is what I want from a SWAT team as a citizen. However, they did seem to overdo it a bit on the guns and how dangerous the guys they took down were. Not that they don't have a dangerous job, and I respect that, but five dumbasses in a crack house are not the IRA. I suspect, however, that they are really hamming for the cameras and are not that bad in real life.



Here's a bit of info:

More SWAT officers are killed or injured by crackhead raids than by terrorists.

Most police gunfights happen on routine traffic stops, but one wouldn't "think" that traffic stops are all that dangerous, right?

Those 5 cracked out buddies are most likely guys with long criminal records and with no hesitation to use violence to save their own skins. They have probably killed or at least tried to kill people before and would gladly kill cops to keep from going back to prison.

Crack houses aren't hit by SWAT because they are bored. They are hit by SWAT because they are HIGH RISK. The people inside are likely to be violent and irrational, and probably have access to weapons too. That's why the SWAT guys get sent in there.

The fact that most SWAT raids end without a shot fired is not the result of there not being a threat inside, but is rather attributable to the fact that the SWAT guys use tools and tactics that are designed to keep violence from happening in the first place.

If a SWAT guy has to pull the trigger, things are not going as planned.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:03:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Arsenal:
your a cop .. right?



Do you honestly think that you are going to back out of those silly statements by trying to allege that I am a cop defending other cops?

You don't know what you were talking about, and it shows.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:09:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By Arsenal:
your a cop .. right?



Do you honestly think that you are going to back out of those silly statements by trying to allege that I am a cop defending other cops?

You don't know what you were talking about, and it shows.



silly statements? just my opion I dont intend to backoff.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:09:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By happycynic:
Little on the harsh side there Arsenal. I thought that overall the guys were professional and very slow to violence - which is what I want from a SWAT team as a citizen. However, they did seem to overdo it a bit on the guns and how dangerous the guys they took down were. Not that they don't have a dangerous job, and I respect that, but five dumbasses in a crack house are not the IRA. I suspect, however, that they are really hamming for the cameras and are not that bad in real life.



Here's a bit of info:

More SWAT officers are killed or injured by crackhead raids than by terrorists.

Most police gunfights happen on routine traffic stops, but one wouldn't "think" that traffic stops are all that dangerous, right?

Those 5 cracked out buddies are most likely guys with long criminal records and with no hesitation to use violence to save their own skins. They have probably killed or at least tried to kill people before and would gladly kill cops to keep from going back to prison.

Crack houses aren't hit by SWAT because they are bored. They are hit by SWAT because they are HIGH RISK. The people inside are likely to be violent and irrational, and probably have access to weapons too. That's why the SWAT guys get sent in there.

The fact that most SWAT raids end without a shot fired is not the result of there not being a threat inside, but is rather attributable to the fact that the SWAT guys use tools and tactics that are designed to keep violence from happening in the first place.



I think you misunderstand my point. I said that I respect the fact that their job is dangerous, and I have no doubt that some of those guys are desparate enough to take a shot at the cops. That's not what I was talking about. I was thinking about the statement in the first episode of Dallas SWAT where the guy talks about how they take down the baddest of the bad. I thought it was a little on the melodramatic side given the disparaty of force involved. Five guys in a crack house can be dangerous, no doubt, but its not like the outcome of the engagement is in doubt when they are up against dozens of guys with better guns, better training, and better tactics. The dipshits obviously have no sense of tactics, little knowledge of firearms, and are the typical idiots you'd expect crackheads to be. They don't have the organization, dedication, or training of an organization like the IRA, or the Zapatas, or a similar gang.

Like I said, my overall impression was favorable, but I thought they were hamming things up a bit for the cameras.

Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:10:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Arsenal:
silly statements? just my opion I dont intend to backoff.



Your opinion is ill-informed.

You are certainly entitled to your ill-informed opinion, but you should expect folks with more understanding to come along and correct your assertions.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:11:08 AM EDT
I've watched an episode of both Texas and Dallas and thought they were both well done. The men on the teams are arrogant yes, but that stems from being part of an elite group that trains hard to do the hard jobs. It's a mindset that helps them to get up in the morning and go to work, so they can go knock on the doors that most people steer clear of.

It's easy to criticize something on TV when you don't have to be the point man.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:11:37 AM EDT
They are hamming it up to look good on TV, for Johnny Six pack and the sheeple. These cops aren't delta squad, but they don't need to be to deal these kinds of threats.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:12:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Arsenal:

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By Arsenal:
your a cop .. right?



Do you honestly think that you are going to back out of those silly statements by trying to allege that I am a cop defending other cops?

You don't know what you were talking about, and it shows.



silly statements? just my opion I dont intend to backoff.

- By all means dont back off. Your opinions, while making you look like an ass, are amusing to me.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:13:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By KNYTE:
I've watched an episode of both Texas and Dallas and thought they were both well done. The men on the teams are arrogant yes, but that stems from being part of an elite group that trains hard to do the hard jobs. It's a mindset that helps them to get up in the morning and go to work, so they can go knock on the doors that most people steer clear of.

It's easy to criticize something on TV when you don't have to be the point man.



+1
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:13:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:

- I think last night was Texas SWAT on Court TV. I never heard them go ingot detail about what kind of mantrap had been set inside the house. I was really expecting that call to become a baricaded shooter when the shots started going off.



So, Texas SWAT is on Court TV. Where.when is Dallas SWAT. (I know....I know... Google is my friend.... bite me!)
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:13:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By Arsenal:
your a cop .. right?



Do you honestly think that you are going to back out of those silly statements by trying to allege that I am a cop defending other cops?

You don't know what you were talking about, and it shows.



im not knocking other cops, the point im making is that its overly dramatic. They are Ego driven gum shoers though.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:14:19 AM EDT
Half of the Leo protectorate clan here posts morning, noon, and night in a feeble attempt to justify everything their comrades do. Come on guys, you really must be dispatchers. (I mean with all that free time on your hands.) Vigilantly patrolling the boards to uphold the Leo community standard of falling short! Isn’t basic weapons identification taught? Well one good thing came out of all this the dog lived.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:15:56 AM EDT

I was thinking about the statement in the first episode of Dallas SWAT where the guy talks about how they take down the baddest of the bad. I thought it was a little on the melodramatic side given the disparaty of force involved. Five guys in a crack house can be dangerous, no doubt, but its not like the outcome of the engagement is in doubt when they are up against dozens of guys with better guns, better training, and better tactics
- I believe they arent talking about just hitting dope houses. Instead, they are refering more to the the "When the police ned help they call SWAT" bit. Also SWAT guys tend to be the ones doing a lot of murder warrant services on top of search warrant services (if patrol doesnt do them) and the usual baricades/hostage calls.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:16:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By efpeter:

Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:

- I think last night was Texas SWAT on Court TV. I never heard them go ingot detail about what kind of mantrap had been set inside the house. I was really expecting that call to become a baricaded shooter when the shots started going off.



So, Texas SWAT is on Court TV. Where.when is Dallas SWAT. (I know....I know... Google is my friend.... bite me!)

- Dallas SWAT is on A&E on Thursdays (I think). Google is your friend.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:17:08 AM EDT
Dallas SWAT - Thursday at 10 on A&E

Texas Swat - Wednesday at 8 on Court TV

Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:17:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By happycynic:

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By happycynic:
Little on the harsh side there Arsenal. I thought that overall the guys were professional and very slow to violence - which is what I want from a SWAT team as a citizen. However, they did seem to overdo it a bit on the guns and how dangerous the guys they took down were. Not that they don't have a dangerous job, and I respect that, but five dumbasses in a crack house are not the IRA. I suspect, however, that they are really hamming for the cameras and are not that bad in real life.



Here's a bit of info:

More SWAT officers are killed or injured by crackhead raids than by terrorists.

Most police gunfights happen on routine traffic stops, but one wouldn't "think" that traffic stops are all that dangerous, right?

Those 5 cracked out buddies are most likely guys with long criminal records and with no hesitation to use violence to save their own skins. They have probably killed or at least tried to kill people before and would gladly kill cops to keep from going back to prison.

Crack houses aren't hit by SWAT because they are bored. They are hit by SWAT because they are HIGH RISK. The people inside are likely to be violent and irrational, and probably have access to weapons too. That's why the SWAT guys get sent in there.

The fact that most SWAT raids end without a shot fired is not the result of there not being a threat inside, but is rather attributable to the fact that the SWAT guys use tools and tactics that are designed to keep violence from happening in the first place.



I think you misunderstand my point. I said that I respect the fact that their job is dangerous, and I have no doubt that some of those guys are desparate enough to take a shot at the cops. That's not what I was talking about. I was thinking about the statement in the first episode of Dallas SWAT where the guy talks about how they take down the baddest of the bad. I thought it was a little on the melodramatic side given the disparaty of force involved. Five guys in a crack house can be dangerous, no doubt, but its not like the outcome of the engagement is in doubt when they are up against dozens of guys with better guns, better training, and better tactics. The dipshits obviously have no sense of tactics, little knowledge of firearms, and are the typical idiots you'd expect crackheads to be. They don't have the organization, dedication, or training of an organization like the IRA, or the Zapatas, or a similar gang.

Like I said, my overall impression was favorable, but I thought they were hamming things up a bit for the cameras.




hamming it up , well put sir. The camera made those Ego's get even bigger. Its ok to have a big ego in that position , but just dont think you cant be taken down;that leads to mistakes.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:20:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2006 7:21:15 AM EDT by NCPatrolAR]

Originally Posted By N95343:
Half of the Leo protectorate clan here posts morning, noon, and night in a feeble attempt to justify everything their comrades do.

- Setting the tone for the rest of your comments I see.



Come on guys, you really must be dispatchers. (I mean with all that free time on your hands.)
- Nope. You couldnt pay me enough to do that job. Why would I want to sit on my ass day in and day out?


Isn’t basic weapons identification taught?
- Sure. It usually goes like this. "This is your duty weapon... it is so and so caliber, holds so and so number of rounds etc. Now this is your duty shotgun.........". Guys larn what different weapons are through hands on expereince in the field (which usually means looking for the make,model, and serial number when checking to see if it is stolen and/or doing a property sheet.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:22:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2006 7:23:50 AM EDT by Dolomite]
If they made it look safe and easy, if they didn't spout off confidently about the guns they found (in a way to make their job look less safe) – do you think there’d be a show in the first place? How about funding down the road? They’re trying to impress both the public and the people that sign their checks (Which to those that believe what they learned in high school civics are the same people).
  • Cops are cops, the general public assumes they’re all firearms experts, but we know that’s not the case.
  • Put a camera in someone’s face on their birthday, when they open a gift - everything they get suddenly becomes REALLY AWESOME.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:24:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By Arsenal:
silly statements? just my opion I dont intend to backoff.



Your opinion is ill-informed.

You are certainly entitled to your ill-informed opinion, but you should expect folks with more understanding to come along and correct your assertions.



ill-informed, well ok. Most of my close friends are prior military , police and SWAT; they all think the show is a joke. My friend that was on the San diego SWAT team in the early 90's said he never encountered a situation where their sniper would not have been in an elevated postion. he also said couldnt recall waiting outside a house for hours on end for someone to give up. He said their team leader gave two warnings and then the gas.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:25:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By happycynic:
I think you misunderstand my point. I said that I respect the fact that their job is dangerous, and I have no doubt that some of those guys are desparate enough to take a shot at the cops. That's not what I was talking about. I was thinking about the statement in the first episode of Dallas SWAT where the guy talks about how they take down the baddest of the bad. I thought it was a little on the melodramatic side given the disparaty of force involved.



They *do* take on the baddest of the bad. If a terrorist cell is spotted in Dallas, guess who is going to get called? Dallas SWAT. Why? Because they have trained to deal with exactly that situation. The OBLs of the world, however, aren't the biggest threat on the streets all the time. The looser on his third strike who has hooked up with his homies and decided that they are going to teach a rival latin gang a lesson by running around and shooting every "mexican" they see is the more common danger.

If the police get a tip on where these guys are getting high and getting laid, they aren't going to send rookie officers in there. They are going to send the SWAT guys because they are trained well and are used to dealing with the most dangerous criminal elements and are equipped to do so.

There is a disparity of force by design. They aren't trying to have a fair fight with the bad guys, they are trying to dominate to such an extent that even a coked up looser on his third strike will surrender peacefully. The disparity of force is a weapon designed to bring about a peaceful resolution if possible.



Five guys in a crack house can be dangerous, no doubt, but its not like the outcome of the engagement is in doubt when they are up against dozens of guys with better guns, better training, and better tactics.



You are looking at this from the incorrect standpoint. SWAT team enters, 1 team member gets killed, all 5 crackheads die = DEFEAT.

SWAT team enters, crackheads open up, innocents in the house get hit, all 5 crackheads die = DEFEAT.

The winner in a SWAT engagement is not the guy who has the most team members alive at the end. It simply isn't that cut and dry.



The dipshits obviously have no sense of tactics, little knowledge of firearms, and are the typical idiots you'd expect crackheads to be.



What some of these "dipshits" lack in the knowledge of proper tactics they make up for in a willingness to kill anyone in their path. Determination is more important than tactics. A determined grandma with a .22 pistol is still enough to make a SEAL entry team duck....



They don't have the organization, dedication, or training of an organization like the IRA, or the Zapatas, or a similar gang.



Here's the thing: all that training really isn't important when you don't care who you shoot or why you are shooting them.

When we compare the average Iraqi insurgent to our average combat soldier there is no comparison as to who is better trained and better armed, but do we then say that our guys are being drama queens when they talk about fighting the war on terror? After all, they have better equipment, tactics, and training, so they really aren't facing anything all that bad, right?

When SWAT goes through the door they can encounter trained attack dogs, booby traps, meth lab explosions, you name it. They don't call doorways fatal funnels for nothing, you know....



Like I said, my overall impression was favorable, but I thought they were hamming things up a bit for the cameras.



Perhaps.

Or perhaps they were trying to make a point to millions upon millions of people who haven't a clue what they actually do or what kind of things they face on a daily basis.

Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:27:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Arsenal:
ill-informed, well ok. Most of my close friends are prior military , police and SWAT; they all think the show is a joke. My friend that was on the San diego SWAT team in the early 90's said he never encountered a situation where their sniper would not have been in an elevated postion. he also said couldnt recall waiting outside a house for hours on end for someone to give up. He said their team leader gave two warnings and then the gas.

- Here is the friends excuse.

Anyways, it sounds like your "friend" from San Diego was either on a fucked -up tac team, wasn't on a team at all, or doesnt really exist
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:28:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Arsenal:
im not knocking other cops, the point im making is that its overly dramatic. They are Ego driven gum shoers though.



Ego driven gum shoers?

What should be said about someone with no familiarity with tactics and no evidence of professional training feeling the need to hop on to an internet board to explain how deficient the SWAT cops and their concept of tactics are?

And then when that someone is shown to be wrong, they refuse to back off their statements to such?

I suppose that ISN'T driven by ego?
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:29:56 AM EDT

The dipshits obviously have no sense of tactics, little knowledge of firearms, and are the typical idiots you'd expect crackheads to be.

- never judge a book by its cover. We recently grabbed four guys that had just came back from Iraq (or so they claimed. All were in the army though) for robbery. You NEVER know who is going to be inside a structure when you hit it.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:30:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2006 7:33:19 AM EDT by SubnetMask]

Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:

Originally Posted By N95343:
Half of the Leo protectorate clan here posts morning, noon, and night in a feeble attempt to justify everything their comrades do.

- Setting the tone for the rest of your comments I see.



Come on guys, you really must be dispatchers. (I mean with all that free time on your hands.)
- Nope. You couldnt pay me enough to do that job. Why would I want to sit on my ass day in and day out?


Isn’t basic weapons identification taught?
- Sure. It usually goes like this. "This is your duty weapon... it is so and so caliber, holds so and so number of rounds etc. Now this is your duty shotgun.........". Guys larn what different weapons are through hands on expereince in the field (which usually means looking for the make,model, and serial number when checking to see if it is stolen and/or doing a property sheet.



+1. I honestly don't think it's reasonable to expect cops to have an enthusiast-level knowledge of firearms. I still get irritated when they get it wrong, but I digress. Were it reasonable to assume that they "ought to" know as much about firearms as we do "since it's their job", then would it not be reasonable to expect them to know as much about the cars they pull over? Heh, I can imagine this:


"We've just recovered a 2005 Mustang GT. These are high performance vehicles capable of speeds in excess of 140 MPH - well over any established speed limits I'm aware of. In stock form It has a big V8, and 4.10 gears".


Then comes the cries from the various Mustang forums:

"OMG!!! Did you guys see that? Everybody knows 05 GT's have 3.55 gears! What a dumbass! And since when was a 4.6L a big V8? People are gonna want to ban our cars after watching this crap! Cops have to deal with this stuff everyday, and you'd THINK they'd know a little something about the cars they come up against".





ETA: Turns out, I'm a dumbass. They only install 3.55's on 5spd cars. I'd make a lousy cop, it seems.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:31:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By N95343:
Half of the Leo protectorate clan here posts morning, noon, and night in a feeble attempt to justify everything their comrades do.



Who is justifying anything?

If you think that the opinions expressed about SWAT cops in this thread is right, then why don't you sign up and show them all how it is done?

With the "expertise" I see on this board, the problems in law enforcement could be solved within a week.



Come on guys, you really must be dispatchers. (I mean with all that free time on your hands.)



Cops get days off too, you know.



Isn’t basic weapons identification taught?



No, it isn't.

Officers spend hundreds of hours training each year in lots of topics more important than knowing the difference between one type of machine pistol and another. Military training has the same "shortcoming".


Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:32:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Arsenal:
hamming it up , well put sir. The camera made those Ego's get even bigger. Its ok to have a big ego in that position , but just dont think you cant be taken down;that leads to mistakes.



Like asserting that snipers provide no cover? Or wondering how "tuff" they could be?
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:33:19 AM EDT
Not anti-leo guys just messing around a little.
Don't always agree with everything I see from them but thats a diferent story.
I was under the impression SWAT guys were trained at least a little better then that in the area of weapons Id.
I do think they where hamming it up for the camera. I would have to.
Dont take everything on this board so serious.
Stay safe.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:33:40 AM EDT
I caught part of one last week. I can't remember which one- why are there two shows about Texas SWAT teams??!

I'd like to see a reality show about the Border Patrol for the heck of it.

Arsenal- they are tough... and like any more-elite corps of anything, they have a bit of a swagger to them. They're the "High speed" guys.

It's called Esprit de Corps. Look it up.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:37:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By N95343:
I was under the impression SWAT guys were trained at least a little better then that in the area of weapons Id.

- nah. I was on a warrant service with some of the SWAT guys when we opened a safe full of weapons. One of the SWAT guys was like "Hey is that a suppresor on that AR?". Without pulling the rifle out I glanced at it and offered "No... just a bull barrel. The gun looks set up for accuracy more than anything".

And speaking of that.. we seized a McMillian boltgun in 50bmg... you dont know how many people kept calling it a Barret.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:37:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By Arsenal:
im not knocking other cops, the point im making is that its overly dramatic. They are Ego driven gum shoers though.



Ego driven gum shoers?

What should be said about someone with no familiarity with tactics and no evidence of professional training feeling the need to hop on to an internet board to explain how deficient the SWAT cops and their concept of tactics are?

And then when that someone is shown to be wrong, they refuse to back off their statements to such?

I suppose that ISN'T driven by ego?



ok so why do you assume i have no experience?
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:38:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Arsenal:
ill-informed, well ok. Most of my close friends are prior military , police and SWAT;



Sure they are.



My friend that was on the San diego SWAT team in the early 90's said he never encountered a situation where their sniper would not have been in an elevated postion.



Perhaps when no elevated position offers the proper view of the target location???

An elevated position does you no good if it does not offer the view of the location where the action will be.



he also said couldnt recall waiting outside a house for hours on end for someone to give up. He said their team leader gave two warnings and then the gas.



Then your friend is probably lying.

SWAT standoffs are not an unusual thing. Giving two warnings and giving the gas isn't always the best move and can sometimes get people killed that don't need to be killed. The judgement calls of the commander on scene are the result of evaluating the whole situation. Sometimes charging in is the best course of action. Sometimes waiting it out is the best course.

Usually the longer the wait, the less violence there is because that allows for SWAT to pick the moment THEY want, as opposed to reacting to the actions of the guy inside with the shotgun on his ex-wife.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:40:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
SWAT standoffs are not an unusual thing. Giving two warnings and giving the gas isn't always the best move and can sometimes get people killed that don't need to be killed. The judgement calls of the commander on scene are the result of evaluating the whole situation. Sometimes charging in is the best course of action. Sometimes waiting it out is the best course.

Usually the longer the wait, the less violence there is because that allows for SWAT to pick the moment THEY want, as opposed to reacting to the actions of the guy inside with the shotgun on his ex-wife.



Sit
Wait
And
Talk
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:41:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:

The dipshits obviously have no sense of tactics, little knowledge of firearms, and are the typical idiots you'd expect crackheads to be.

- never judge a book by its cover. We recently grabbed four guys that had just came back from Iraq (or so they claimed. All were in the army though) for robbery. You NEVER know who is going to be inside a structure when you hit it.



Two words:

North Hollywood.

Those guys weren't trained in the minute details of tactics and didn't have tons of experience. They had body armor, fully automatic weapons, and didn't give a damn who they killed.

They managed to be pretty farking dangerous, if you ask me....
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:41:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:

Originally Posted By N95343:
I was under the impression SWAT guys were trained at least a little better then that in the area of weapons Id.

- nah. I was on a warrant service with some of the SWAT guys when we opened a safe full of weapons. One of the SWAT guys was like "Hey is that a suppresor on that AR?". Without pulling the rifle out I glanced at it and offered "No... just a bull barrel. The gun looks set up for accuracy more than anything".

And speaking of that.. we seized a McMillian boltgun in 50bmg... you dont know how many people kept calling it a Barret.



lol , tax dollars at work
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:42:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Arsenal:

Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:

Originally Posted By N95343:
I was under the impression SWAT guys were trained at least a little better then that in the area of weapons Id.

- nah. I was on a warrant service with some of the SWAT guys when we opened a safe full of weapons. One of the SWAT guys was like "Hey is that a suppresor on that AR?". Without pulling the rifle out I glanced at it and offered "No... just a bull barrel. The gun looks set up for accuracy more than anything".

And speaking of that.. we seized a McMillian boltgun in 50bmg... you dont know how many people kept calling it a Barret.



lol , tax dollars at work

Yes indeed. Money put to good use too.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:44:52 AM EDT
John_Wayne777 Why don't I sign up and show them how to do it?
thanx but no thanx you guys can keep it.

I'll stay in the air, Chicks dig wings alot more.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:48:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:
Sit
Wait
And
Talk



Yup.

Nothing like the fun of staying crouched outside some drunk guy's house for 4 hours while the negotiator tries to convince him not to shoot his ex-wife and their kids and come out peacefully while it is 100 degrees outside and you are wearing full armor.

If folks wonder why SWAT guys bother wearing hydration packs, I assure you there is good reason to. A granola bar or two kept in the vest isn't a bad idea either.
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