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Posted: 1/9/2006 12:12:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/10/2006 4:06:33 PM EDT by leo6223]
I can't tell you how many times we've had problems with tow truck drivers. Sounds like this guy needs to go to prison for life.


Tampa man fatally shot by tow truck driver
TAMPA, Fla. — A tow truck driver fatally shot a 30-year-old man who tried to retrieve a friend's car after it had been towed, authorities said.

Glen Rich had been at a nightclub with friends early Sunday when the car was towed to a nearby lot, Hillsborough sheriff's spokesman J.D. Callaway said. Friends drove him to the lot to retrieve it at about 5:30 a.m.

Rich argued with tow truck driver Donald Montanez while getting in the car to drive away. Montanez, 44, pulled a .40-caliber pistol and fired into the car from the passenger side, striking Rich in the chest, Callaway said. He died later at a hospital.

Montanez, who holds a concealed weapons permit, was not arrested at the scene. Callaway said Monday that the case has been forwarded to prosecutors for possible charges.


UPDATE********UPDATE**********UPD­ATE**************UPDATE

Tow Truck Driver Charged In Slaying

By LENNY SAVINO


TAMPA - When tow truck operator Donald Montanez fatally shot a man last month during a dispute over an impounded car, he told Hillsborough County sheriff's deputies that it was a clear case of self-defense.

On Friday, authorities concluded it was murder.

Montanez, 44, the owner of Private Property Commercial Impound, was booked into Orient Road Jail on Friday, charged with second-degree murder, four counts of aggravated assault with a firearm and shooting into an occupied vehicle.

The murder charge carries a maximum penalty of life in prison.

The shooting took place about 5 a.m. Jan. 8, a few blocks from the Sugar Shack nightclub on East Hillsborough Avenue. Glen "Chuck" Rich, two of his brothers and a friend had left the club and were told Rich's new car was impounded for being illegally parked.

The brothers had gone to the club to try to forget the death of another brother, Mellamounta Hayes, who died in a car crash that week.

Rich was shot when he tried to retrieve his car, deputies said.

"I just kept praying and hoping that God would justify the situation," Rich's mother, Eva Stephens, said Friday.

Rich, 30, leaves a wife and two children, a 19-month-old boy and 7-year-old girl. The family lived in an apartment complex on 131st Street where Rich worked as a repairman. The couple were planning to open an air-conditioning repair business.

"The loan just came through," said Adama Rich, Rich's widow. "This is a man who walked his daughter to the bus stop every morning and picked her up every afternoon."

Montanez, she said, "took away something precious" from her and the children.

In a written statement, deputies said that before the shooting, Rich and his group walked to a lot at 6010 Bonacker Road to retrieve Rich's car. Montanez pointed a loaded .40-caliber Sig Sauer with laser sights at them.

Rich unlocked his car and attempted to drive away. Montanez fired a shot that shattered the front passenger window, hitting Rich under his right arm, deputies said.

Rich drove to a nearby convenience store, where he called his wife before passing out. He was taken to St. Joseph's Hospital, where he died from the gunshot wound.

Montanez's attorney, Roger Rigau, did not return phone calls Friday. Rigau said earlier that he believes Montanez can invoke a "Stand Your Ground Law" defense.

Signed by Gov. Jeb Bush in October, the law says citizens do not have to retreat from an aggressor about to use deadly physical force on them.

Rigau and his investigators videotaped a re-enactment of the shooting, which they planned to show prosecutors.

Orlando lawyer Bruce Batts, who represents the Rich family, said it was not clear that Rich's car was parked illegally and there were no signs indicating where impounded cars could be picked up.

Under Florida law, Rich's car should have been taken straight to Montanez's impound lot at 11709 12th St. N., Batts said. Instead, it was taken to the lot near the nightclub.

"When all the facts come out, they will prove that this was an execution," Batts said. "He just decided that taking money for a towed car is more important than a man's life."
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 12:13:25 PM EDT
From the details in the article, that's outright murder. We might hear something later that changes it to an acceptable shooting, but I seriously doubt it.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 12:13:49 PM EDT
great

hopefully it'll get lost in the Alito stuff. Too bad the idiot is adding to the anti's stats with that idiot move.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 12:15:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By leo6223:
I can't tell you how many times we've had problems with tow truck drivers. Sounds like this guy needs to go to prison for life.



I've heard the same from numerous cops.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 12:16:01 PM EDT
Wait! there got to be more to the story...
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 12:19:13 PM EDT
Hell even with Alito All is secondary to Abortion.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 12:26:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2006 12:27:00 PM EDT by leo6223]

Originally Posted By junker46:
Wait! there got to be more to the story...



There might be....but for some reason I get the feeling this guy got pissed off because some drunk got into his own car with the intention of driving off.....tow truck driver got pissed about getting stiffed for tow fees and put himself in front of the car and created the situation. I bet he tries to use the defense that he thought he was going to get run over.

Yes, merchant can use force to detain a potentional theft suspect but that does not include deadly force. Clearly a misuse of deadly force and from the LIMITED information in the article it appears as if this is second degree murder.

Even if they charge him with reckless display of a firearm (misdemeanor) it is still life in prison under 10-20-life law.

Link Posted: 1/9/2006 12:26:41 PM EDT
Probably arguing because he didn't want to pay the tow bill.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 12:30:14 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 12:32:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:

Originally Posted By Swindle1984:
From the details in the article, that's outright murder. We might hear something later that changes it to an acceptable shooting, but I seriously doubt it.



+1



Does Florida allow predatory towing? It could turn out to be murder 1 committed while stealing a car.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 12:35:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2006 12:35:46 PM EDT by RiffRandall]

Originally Posted By leo6223:

Originally Posted By junker46:
Wait! there got to be more to the story...



There might be....but for some reason I get the feeling this guy got pissed off because some drunk got into his own car with the intention of driving off.....tow truck driver got pissed about getting stiffed for tow fees and put himself in front of the car and created the situation. I bet he tries to use the defense that he thought he was going to get run over.




Dumbass, that only works for Badge-Americard holders.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 12:36:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By happycynic:

Originally Posted By leo6223:
I can't tell you how many times we've had problems with tow truck drivers. Sounds like this guy needs to go to prison for life.



I've heard the same from numerous cops.



+1

I've heard of some pretty shitty stunts being pulled by tow truck drivers. Fortunatly, the ones I've dealt with have been pretty decent - which is why we deal with those particular companies.

-K
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 12:40:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gunman0:

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:

Originally Posted By Swindle1984:
From the details in the article, that's outright murder. We might hear something later that changes it to an acceptable shooting, but I seriously doubt it.



+1



Does Florida allow predatory towing? It could turn out to be murder 1 committed while stealing a car.



Yes, it does, and I promise you he got towed after parking in a roam-tow lot.

That still doesn't justify shooting him when he goes to get the car, with the details that have been revealed so far.

My bet is that he tried to drive off from the tow lot without paying the bill, and the tow-truvk cowboy decided to stop him.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 12:40:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RiffRandall:

Originally Posted By leo6223:

Originally Posted By junker46:
Wait! there got to be more to the story...



There might be....but for some reason I get the feeling this guy got pissed off because some drunk got into his own car with the intention of driving off.....tow truck driver got pissed about getting stiffed for tow fees and put himself in front of the car and created the situation. I bet he tries to use the defense that he thought he was going to get run over.




Dumbass, that only works for Badge-Americard holders.



Uh-huh....and one has a "duty to act" and "no duty to retreat when effecting an arrest" and the other has neither one of those.

If someone with a uniform and badge and gun tells you to stop and put your hands up are you going to do it? (oh boy will that start a shitstorm with the tinfoil anti-gov types here)

How about earl the tow truck driver with his name embroidered on his shirt and a gun? Gonna stop for him?


I could be wrong but it sounds like murder at worst and at best a totally unnecessary shooting. You have the guys name and information....call the police and file a theft report.

Link Posted: 1/9/2006 12:42:10 PM EDT
FL's 10-20-Life law is as follows. Use a gun in the commiting of a crime, automatic 10 years. Fire the gun get 20 automatically. If someone dies as a result of you pulling the trigger, automatic life. No questions asked.

This POS tow truck driver needs life. Regardless if he was going to get stiffed for the tow (legal to or not) it is NOT his property to defend with lethal force. If the owner of the car started a fight and brandished a weapon, that is a different story.

Link Posted: 1/9/2006 12:46:33 PM EDT
I am a tow truck driver. 1) There has to be more to this story. 2) If there is not more to this story, then the driver should hang.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 12:46:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dvr9:
FL's 10-20-Life law is as follows. Use a gun in the commiting of a crime, automatic 10 years. Fire the gun get 20 automatically. If someone dies as a result of you pulling the trigger, automatic life. No questions asked.

This POS tow truck driver needs life. Regardless if he was going to get stiffed for the tow (legal to or not) it is NOT his property to defend with lethal force. If the owner of the car started a fight and brandished a weapon, that is a different story.




That's a terrible law. However, this case may be the exception. I could live with life for the tow truck driver in this case.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 12:48:17 PM EDT
Sounds like plain 'ol vanilla murder to me. Thanks for the CCW anti-ammo you giant prick!
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 12:55:36 PM EDT
Probably would be legal in Texas
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 12:58:44 PM EDT
Not much info but sounds like murder to me.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 12:59:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
Probably would be legal in Texas



I don't know about that. Depends on if the law would regard it as a "theft" since its his car, but with a lien on it for the towing company.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 1:02:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2006 1:02:57 PM EDT by fight4yourrights]
If the tow truck driver was reasonably in fear for his life, IT'S A GOOD SHOOT


The towing issue is irrelevant
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 1:06:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By happycynic:
[

That's a terrible law. However, this case may be the exception. I could live with life for the tow truck driver in this case.



You're kidding right (although there is more to the law than stated) but I don't see how it's bad. It's helped LEO a great deal in the fact that these little shit bird gang bangers would pull a gun shoot at a crowd of people (sometimes hit them) and get a weekend in jail (or maybe two weekends)


Link Posted: 1/9/2006 1:07:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
If the tow truck driver was reasonably in fear for his life, IT'S A GOOD SHOOT


The towing issue is irrelevant



Again, there may be a whole lot more to this than meets the eye....but how is someone driving off with a car putting you in fear for your life?

Link Posted: 1/9/2006 1:13:40 PM EDT
You can't put a lein on a car unless you have the title and it is sent in to have the state place the lein in your name. So this guy does not have a lein on the car. The guy shot may have been tresspassing and may have been trying to run over the tow truck driver then for it would be self defense. How would you like to go to jail for self defense. or he could have just been pissed and wasted the guy, I guess we will see in court.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 1:17:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2006 1:18:16 PM EDT by happycynic]

Originally Posted By leo6223:

Originally Posted By happycynic:
[

That's a terrible law. However, this case may be the exception. I could live with life for the tow truck driver in this case.



You're kidding right (although there is more to the law than stated) but I don't see how it's bad. It's helped LEO a great deal in the fact that these little shit bird gang bangers would pull a gun shoot at a crowd of people (sometimes hit them) and get a weekend in jail (or maybe two weekends)





I'm all for throwing the book at the bangers, but zero tolerance is a terrible idea for legal issues. Some guy who shoots in the air during a holdup gets 20 while most rapists get 5? It doesn't make sense. Sentencing should always be an individualized look at things. Something that also bothers me, and I don't know if the law writes in an exception to this or not, is what if you are in an iffy self-defense situation? You shoot the guy but he was a little too far away, or was turning to flee and you didn't realize it, or something along those lines and the jury doesn't grant self-defense. Wouldn't life then be a mandatory sentence since you used a gun in the commission of a crime and it resulted in death? Also, what if you kill the guy who raped/murdered your child? Mandatory life there as well, it appears. Normally, judges would give fairly light sentences for such crimes, but it appears that the Florida law prevents that. That's why I don't like it. Banger who shoot into a crowd? Kill him.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 1:20:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By erickktm:
You can't put a lein on a car unless you have the title and it is sent in to have the state place the lein in your name. So this guy does not have a lein on the car. The guy shot may have been tresspassing and may have been trying to run over the tow truck driver then for it would be self defense. How would you like to go to jail for self defense. or he could have just been pissed and wasted the guy, I guess we will see in court.



lien's can also rise by operation of law. Mechanics and other similar professions often have de facto liens on the items they work on until they get paid - which is why they can refuse to give your car back if you don't pay. I don't know exactly how it works with towing companies, but I think they have something similar.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 1:28:07 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 1:35:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By happycynic:

Originally Posted By leo6223:

Originally Posted By happycynic:
[

That's a terrible law. However, this case may be the exception. I could live with life for the tow truck driver in this case.



You're kidding right (although there is more to the law than stated) but I don't see how it's bad. It's helped LEO a great deal in the fact that these little shit bird gang bangers would pull a gun shoot at a crowd of people (sometimes hit them) and get a weekend in jail (or maybe two weekends)





I'm all for throwing the book at the bangers, but zero tolerance is a terrible idea for legal issues. Some guy who shoots in the air during a holdup gets 20 while most rapists get 5? It doesn't make sense. Sentencing should always be an individualized look at things. Something that also bothers me, and I don't know if the law writes in an exception to this or not, is what if you are in an iffy self-defense situation? You shoot the guy but he was a little too far away, or was turning to flee and you didn't realize it, or something along those lines and the jury doesn't grant self-defense. Wouldn't life then be a mandatory sentence since you used a gun in the commission of a crime and it resulted in death? Also, what if you kill the guy who raped/murdered your child? Mandatory life there as well, it appears. Normally, judges would give fairly light sentences for such crimes, but it appears that the Florida law prevents that. That's why I don't like it. Banger who shoot into a crowd? Kill him.



60 days someplaces.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 1:35:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By happycynic:

Originally Posted By erickktm:
You can't put a lein on a car unless you have the title and it is sent in to have the state place the lein in your name. So this guy does not have a lein on the car. The guy shot may have been tresspassing and may have been trying to run over the tow truck driver then for it would be self defense. How would you like to go to jail for self defense. or he could have just been pissed and wasted the guy, I guess we will see in court.



lien's can also rise by operation of law. Mechanics and other similar professions often have de facto liens on the items they work on until they get paid - which is why they can refuse to give your car back if you don't pay. I don't know exactly how it works with towing companies, but I think they have something similar.



I doubt they can kill you if you try to leave with your car even with the lien. Now if he tried to run the tow driver down that's another deal, but it says he fired through the passenger side and struck the victim. Sounds like he wasn't in the path of the vehicle.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 1:39:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2006 1:40:24 PM EDT by happycynic]

Originally Posted By Grunteled:

I doubt they can kill you if you try to leave with your car even with the lien. Now if he tried to run the tow driver down that's another deal, but it says he fired through the passenger side and struck the victim. Sounds like he wasn't in the path of the vehicle.



I agree. I was just thinking to Texas' law allowing lethal force in some instances for theft during the nighttime and wondered if by taking the car there might be some technical defense. Jury would likely never buy it, but I thought it might be an interesting quirk in the law.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 1:43:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By leo6223:


...., was not arrested at the scene....



I think this is a key phrase...

I don't know anything more about this situation than is in this post, but there must be WAY more to this story than what is printed here.

I have a feeling the newspaper is trying to cast CCW holders in a bad light.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 1:54:41 PM EDT
I bet that both parties wish that firearm was not discharged now.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 2:00:51 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 2:03:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By happycynic:

Originally Posted By leo6223:

Originally Posted By happycynic:
[

That's a terrible law. However, this case may be the exception. I could live with life for the tow truck driver in this case.



You're kidding right (although there is more to the law than stated) but I don't see how it's bad. It's helped LEO a great deal in the fact that these little shit bird gang bangers would pull a gun shoot at a crowd of people (sometimes hit them) and get a weekend in jail (or maybe two weekends)





I'm all for throwing the book at the bangers, but zero tolerance is a terrible idea for legal issues. Some guy who shoots in the air during a holdup gets 20 while most rapists get 5? It doesn't make sense. Sentencing should always be an individualized look at things. Something that also bothers me, and I don't know if the law writes in an exception to this or not, is what if you are in an iffy self-defense situation? You shoot the guy but he was a little too far away, or was turning to flee and you didn't realize it, or something along those lines and the jury doesn't grant self-defense. Wouldn't life then be a mandatory sentence since you used a gun in the commission of a crime and it resulted in death? Also, what if you kill the guy who raped/murdered your child? Mandatory life there as well, it appears. Normally, judges would give fairly light sentences for such crimes, but it appears that the Florida law prevents that. That's why I don't like it. Banger who shoot into a crowd? Kill him.



Re-read what you wrote. If the jury votes you guilty, then you're adjudicated guilty. You got your trial, you got your jury. You're found guilty. Yes, you may indeed be one of those one-in-ten-billion innocent but proven guilty fuck ups. But in these cases, it's generally not going to happen.

If they can prove he was fleeing to a jury, then any reasonable person would have assumed he was fleeing. If there was doubt, then the jury has a duty to acquit. If they don't acquit, then there was no doubt.

Don't use guns, or get a better lawyer if you want to commit crime in Florida. (Besides. 10-20-Life applies when you have commited a crime. If you've made a good, self-defense shooting, chances are better that you won't even see court here.)
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 2:10:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2006 2:11:57 PM EDT by kissfan]

Originally Posted By 40BOY:
I have a feeling the newspaper is trying to cast CCW holders in a bad light.



The St. Pete Times and Tampa Tribune?

110% guarantee of that one.

And a 115% guarantee I'll be busting their balls if they embellish or get one thing wrong about CCW in Florida. It's one of my favorite hobbies

ETA: Tampa Tribune already stating it

Callaway said Montanez, who works for Private Property Commercial & Impound, had a concealed weapons permit for the pistol.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 2:14:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By happycynic:

I'm all for throwing the book at the bangers, but zero tolerance is a terrible idea for legal issues. Some guy who shoots in the air during a holdup gets 20 while most rapists get 5? It doesn't make sense. Sentencing should always be an individualized look at things. Something that also bothers me, and I don't know if the law writes in an exception to this or not, is what if you are in an iffy self-defense situation? You shoot the guy but he was a little too far away, or was turning to flee and you didn't realize it, or something along those lines and the jury doesn't grant self-defense. Wouldn't life then be a mandatory sentence since you used a gun in the commission of a crime and it resulted in death? Also, what if you kill the guy who raped/murdered your child? Mandatory life there as well, it appears. Normally, judges would give fairly light sentences for such crimes, but it appears that the Florida law prevents that. That's why I don't like it. Banger who shoot into a crowd? Kill him.



A guy who shoots in the air during a hold-up deserves 20 years. A rapist deserves life, buts thats why jessica's law is being passed in many states.

As far as an "iffy self-defense" you by your own words have described what is called in the criminal courts as "a reasonable doubt".

Bottom line.....if you shoot someone get a good lawyer. If you thought for a second that your life was in danger and it's a reasonable perspective then no criminal conviction (notice I didn't say criminal charges...you may be charged, but doubt will make for a 'not guilty' verdict.


Link Posted: 1/9/2006 2:14:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mattimeo:

Originally Posted By happycynic:

I'm all for throwing the book at the bangers, but zero tolerance is a terrible idea for legal issues. Some guy who shoots in the air during a holdup gets 20 while most rapists get 5? It doesn't make sense. Sentencing should always be an individualized look at things. Something that also bothers me, and I don't know if the law writes in an exception to this or not, is what if you are in an iffy self-defense situation? You shoot the guy but he was a little too far away, or was turning to flee and you didn't realize it, or something along those lines and the jury doesn't grant self-defense. Wouldn't life then be a mandatory sentence since you used a gun in the commission of a crime and it resulted in death? Also, what if you kill the guy who raped/murdered your child? Mandatory life there as well, it appears. Normally, judges would give fairly light sentences for such crimes, but it appears that the Florida law prevents that. That's why I don't like it. Banger who shoot into a crowd? Kill him.



Re-read what you wrote. If the jury votes you guilty, then you're adjudicated guilty. You got your trial, you got your jury. You're found guilty. Yes, you may indeed be one of those one-in-ten-billion innocent but proven guilty fuck ups. But in these cases, it's generally not going to happen.

If they can prove he was fleeing to a jury, then any reasonable person would have assumed he was fleeing. If there was doubt, then the jury has a duty to acquit. If they don't acquit, then there was no doubt.

Don't use guns, or get a better lawyer if you want to commit crime in Florida. (Besides. 10-20-Life applies when you have commited a crime. If you've made a good, self-defense shooting, chances are better that you won't even see court here.)



I'm not saying that your innocent, I'm saying that a criminal assault can be a stressful situation, and someone without training may screw-up and shoot someone who is running away, or who, after the fact, is determined not to be enough of a threat to justify lethal force. Because self-defense is a defense, if it fails you are guilty of murder. There is no middle ground. Normally, cases like this would be rectified at sentencing, with a mild sentence given as would be commensurate with the wrong committed. It appear, however, that under the 10-20-life law a life sentence would be mandatory, which in my opinion is a horrible miscarriage of justice.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 2:17:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 40BOY:

Originally Posted By leo6223:


...., was not arrested at the scene....



I think this is a key phrase...

I don't know anything more about this situation than is in this post, but there must be WAY more to this story than what is printed here.

I have a feeling the newspaper is trying to cast CCW holders in a bad light.



Because under the new 'meet force with force' bill (otherwise known as the castle doctrine) no arrest is to be made on scene unless it is a clear and absolute case of murder. If one party claims self-defense and there are any what if's in the scenario then charges are to be filed with the State's attorney or a warrant is to be requested.

Don't read too much into the arrest not being made.

Link Posted: 1/9/2006 2:21:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By happycynic:


I'm not saying that your innocent, I'm saying that a criminal assault can be a stressful situation, and someone without training may screw-up and shoot someone who is running away, or who, after the fact, is determined not to be enough of a threat to justify lethal force. Because self-defense is a defense, if it fails you are guilty of murder. There is no middle ground. Normally, cases like this would be rectified at sentencing, with a mild sentence given as would be commensurate with the wrong committed. It appear, however, that under the 10-20-life law a life sentence would be mandatory, which in my opinion is a horrible miscarriage of justice.




Stop right there at that phrase. If you have no training you have no business carrying a gun. You don't drive a car unless you have training. If you "screw up" and drive over and kill someone because you had no driver training then you deserve jail. Same with a gun.


Neglient ignorance is not a defense or excuse.

Link Posted: 1/9/2006 2:22:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By leo6223:

A guy who shoots in the air during a hold-up deserves 20 years. A rapist deserves life, buts thats why jessica's law is being passed in many states.

As far as an "iffy self-defense" you by your own words have described what is called in the criminal courts as "a reasonable doubt".

Bottom line.....if you shoot someone get a good lawyer. If you thought for a second that your life was in danger and it's a reasonable perspective then no criminal conviction (notice I didn't say criminal charges...you may be charged, but doubt will make for a 'not guilty' verdict.





But your taking away a huge safety net. Some people cannot afford good lawyers. Sometimes the jury hates you because of your race/dress/appearance, etc. Sometimes you get hometowned. Sometimes the jury simply gets it wrong. And Court are loathe to overturn jury verdicts if they are at least plausible. This is why discretion in sentencing is generally a good thing, even if a few liberal judges get it wrong. The only solution to our legal problems is to get good judges. Attempts to end-run the system like three-strikes laws and 10-20-life often create as many problems as they solve.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 2:28:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By leo6223:

Originally Posted By happycynic:


I'm not saying that your innocent, I'm saying that a criminal assault can be a stressful situation, and someone without training may screw-up and shoot someone who is running away, or who, after the fact, is determined not to be enough of a threat to justify lethal force. Because self-defense is a defense, if it fails you are guilty of murder. There is no middle ground. Normally, cases like this would be rectified at sentencing, with a mild sentence given as would be commensurate with the wrong committed. It appear, however, that under the 10-20-life law a life sentence would be mandatory, which in my opinion is a horrible miscarriage of justice.




Stop right there at that phrase. If you have no training you have no business carrying a gun. You don't drive a car unless you have training. If you "screw up" and drive over and kill someone because you had no driver training then you deserve jail. Same with a gun.


Neglient ignorance is not a defense or excuse.




I'm not saying its a defense or excuse, but the essence of justice is that the punishment must fit the crime. Someone who screws up in a stressful situation is not the moral equivalent of a pre-meditated murderer, but under 10-20-life they appear to get the same sentence in many cases. That's not justice. That's a bunch of politicians wanting to appear "tough" on gun crime.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 4:55:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By happycynic:

I'm not saying its a defense or excuse, but the essence of justice is that the punishment must fit the crime. Someone who screws up in a stressful situation is not the moral equivalent of a pre-meditated murderer, but under 10-20-life they appear to get the same sentence in many cases. That's not justice. That's a bunch of politicians wanting to appear "tough" on gun crime.



If by 'screw up' you mean killing someone that was unjustified then yes, 10-20-life is a perfect bill.

Link Posted: 1/9/2006 4:58:07 PM EDT
My 2 cents

Privately owned towtruck company drivers are scum of the earth.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 5:05:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By leo6223:

Originally Posted By happycynic:


I'm not saying that your innocent, I'm saying that a criminal assault can be a stressful situation, and someone without training may screw-up and shoot someone who is running away, or who, after the fact, is determined not to be enough of a threat to justify lethal force. Because self-defense is a defense, if it fails you are guilty of murder. There is no middle ground. Normally, cases like this would be rectified at sentencing, with a mild sentence given as would be commensurate with the wrong committed. It appear, however, that under the 10-20-life law a life sentence would be mandatory, which in my opinion is a horrible miscarriage of justice.




Stop right there at that phrase. If you have no training you have no business carrying a gun. You don't drive a car unless you have training. If you "screw up" and drive over and kill someone because you had no driver training then you deserve jail. Same with a gun.


Neglient ignorance is not a defense or excuse.




Really? What is your "training"? Being aware of the laws and proficient with a handgun? Or do I have to attend Front-Sight or Blackwater in order to carry my pistol in your estimation? Do I have to have SWAT-like ability to instantly asses threats? If my wife doesn't plan to become a pistol-warrior in her spare time is she barred from using one to defend herself?

I don't disagree that some training is in order to own a gun and you are responcible to make sure you get it and to know the law. Your statement sounds dangerously close to saying someone who can't compete in IDPA has no business being able to defend themselves with a firearm and if so I stongly disagree. You are always responcible for the outcome under the law, but that's a given anyway.

Can you clarify?
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 5:18:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By leo6223:

Originally Posted By happycynic:

I'm not saying its a defense or excuse, but the essence of justice is that the punishment must fit the crime. Someone who screws up in a stressful situation is not the moral equivalent of a pre-meditated murderer, but under 10-20-life they appear to get the same sentence in many cases. That's not justice. That's a bunch of politicians wanting to appear "tough" on gun crime.



If by 'screw up' you mean killing someone that was unjustified then yes, 10-20-life is a perfect bill.




Even with the examples I posted? Someone who kills the man who raped and killed their little girl deserves life in prison?
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 5:23:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By happycynic:

Originally Posted By leo6223:

Originally Posted By happycynic:

I'm not saying its a defense or excuse, but the essence of justice is that the punishment must fit the crime. Someone who screws up in a stressful situation is not the moral equivalent of a pre-meditated murderer, but under 10-20-life they appear to get the same sentence in many cases. That's not justice. That's a bunch of politicians wanting to appear "tough" on gun crime.



If by 'screw up' you mean killing someone that was unjustified then yes, 10-20-life is a perfect bill.




Even with the examples I posted? Someone who kills the man who raped and killed their little girl deserves life in prison?



Don't get caught.....


by the way, what's moral is not always legal. I think all pedophiles should be killed. Society wants to believe you can send them to 'rehab' and they'll be ok. Rehab for a molester is a 168gt bthp at 2700fps.

Link Posted: 1/9/2006 5:26:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Grunteled:

I don't disagree that some training is in order to own a gun and you are responcible to make sure you get it and to know the law. Your statement sounds dangerously close to saying someone who can't compete in IDPA has no business being able to defend themselves with a firearm and if so I stongly disagree. You are always responcible for the outcome under the law, but that's a given anyway.

Can you clarify?



Know how to operate/shoot your weapon. Know the laws that govern use of force in you jurisdiction backwards and forward. MAINTAIN A COOL RESPONSIBLE REASONABLE HEAD IN ALL CIRCUMSTANCES. If you act with common sense and in a reasonable and responsible manner that is all one can ask. I don't expect you to be a 'draw down and shoot till slidelock' internet commando hero. Just know how to operate your weapon...but more importantly know how to operate your brain.


Link Posted: 1/9/2006 5:53:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By leo6223:

Originally Posted By RiffRandall:
Dumbass, that only works for Badge-Americard holders.



Uh-huh....and one has a "duty to act" and "no duty to retreat when effecting an arrest" and the other has neither one of those.

If someone with a uniform and badge and gun tells you to stop and put your hands up are you going to do it? (oh boy will that start a shitstorm with the tinfoil anti-gov types here)

How about earl the tow truck driver with his name embroidered on his shirt and a gun? Gonna stop for him?

I could be wrong but it sounds like murder at worst and at best a totally unnecessary shooting. You have the guys name and information....call the police and file a theft report.



I don't want to stray too off-topic, but I agree with you 100%, and I'm one of those 'tinfoil anti-gov types here'.

The article states that the tow truck driver murderer 'shot through the passenger side window'. Unless this car was able to move sideways, I don't see any way it could have posed an imminent threat to the murderer's life, unless the victim had pulled out a gun himself, which he did not.

I would only punch/stab/shoot someone if there was an imminent, unavoidable threat of death or serious bodily injury to myself or my wife, maybe friend.
And that would have to be a damn good motherfucking friend.

I am not a cowboy. My job is to extricate myself as quickly as possible from the mess I should have avoided in the first place. Oh, I practice my skills in the dojo 3 days a week and at the range/sand pit once a week. Yes, even in the snow.

As a med student, I saw a (fatal) stabbing victim come in who had argued with a guy over a parking spot. At least we got a great anatomy lesson that day.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 6:08:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dvr9:
FL's 10-20-Life law is as follows. Use a gun in the commiting of a crime, automatic 10 years. Fire the gun get 20 automatically. If someone dies as a result of you pulling the trigger, automatic life. No questions asked.

<snip>




In case there is any confusion:

the whole 10-20-Life involving a gun (in FL) applies:



in the commiting of a crime
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 6:16:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By erickktm:
The guy shot may have been tresspassing and may have been trying to run over the tow truck driver then for it would be self defense.




Why do people keep saying that? Am I the only one who read the article?


Montanez, 44, pulled a .40-caliber pistol and fired into the car from the passenger side, striking Rich in the chest, Callaway said. He died later at a hospital.
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