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Posted: 12/19/2005 3:13:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/24/2005 5:37:43 AM EDT by Dilbert_556]
Hope this isn't a dupe, I searched but didn't find anything.

This is really bad. 150 lbs of C4 and a buttload of "undetectable sheet explosives" and a whole lot of detonators stolen this weekend in New Mexico. Hope we don't find it the hard way.


Link

Dec. 19, 2005 — About 400 pounds of explosive material was stolen from a research facility in New Mexico, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives confirmed today.

The theft was discovered Sunday night by local authorities.

ATF agents are investigating the large theft from Cherry Enginering, a company owned by Chris Cherry, for decades the senior explosives scientist at Sandia National Laboratories in New Mexico.

Also, 2,500 detonators were missing from a storage explosive container, or magazine, in the name of Cherry Engineering.

The theft is one of the largest reported cases from a facility in the United States in the last decade ending 2004. During that time, a total of about 1,000 pounds was reported stolen from government facilities in 14 reported incidents. It is unknown whether there is any connection to terrorism.

A special agent at ATF said the incident was unusual because such high-powered material was targeted.

One hundred and fifty pounds of the plastic explosive compound C-4 and 250 pounds of undetectable "sheet explosives" — a DuPont flexible explosive material that can be hidden in books and letters — were stolen in the burglary, which also included the theft of blasting caps.

Burglars used a torch bar to break into th
e explosives containers and remove the material.

The missing material could potentially make numerous bombs.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 3:31:10 PM EDT
This is very bad, I just hope that it's local yahoo's who don't know how bad this shit is. Rather than well trained Tangos!!!

Damn you would think in this days of of terrorism this shit would be better secured,

"ATF agents are investigating the large theft from Cherry Enginering, a company owned by Chris Cherry, for decades the senior explosives scientist at Sandia National Laboratories in New Mexico."

One would think that the 'Senior explosives scientist' from Sandia Nat'l Labs. (Which at one time was/still may be a DOD facility) Would really know now to keep this shit safe!!!

I wouldn't doubt it turning out to be an 'inside' job, I'm sure that is where they will be starting the investigation......
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 3:36:02 PM EDT
Trust me, a rated magazine IS a hard target to gain unauthorized access. Someone used a torch to cut their way in (very very dumb, by the way), and no lock in the world is gonna stand up to the big blue wrench for too long...

I'm betting someone is gonna turn themself into a smoking hole in the ground. Energetics do NOT suffer fools lightly..
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 3:39:35 PM EDT
Chris Cherry is an independant contractor who makes EOD products of debateable reliablity. Undetectable sheet explosive it'sdeta sheet and it is very detectable and works just like C-4. somebody is hosed because you can't store that stuff without a monitered security system.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 3:42:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pbaeod:
Chris Cherry is an independant contractor who makes EOD products of debateable reliablity. Undetectable sheet explosive it'sdeta sheet and it is very detectable and works just like C-4. somebody is hosed because you can't store that stuff without a monitered security system.



Is it detectable at the airports with current equipment? I sure as hell hope so.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 3:43:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pbaeod:
Chris Cherry is an independant contractor who makes EOD products of debateable reliablity. Undetectable sheet explosive it'sdeta sheet and it is very detectable and works just like C-4. somebody is hosed because you can't store that stuff without a monitered security system.



gosh.. i hate to say this.. because someone will show up at my door...

its close to new years... its close to christmans. think malls, think public celebrations, think football games..

'you cant store that stuff without a monitored security system'

mayhap they aren't thinking about storing it.. they're gonna use it soon....
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 3:44:08 PM EDT
It has RDX in it so yeah
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 3:45:22 PM EDT
1000 lbs of C4??? the USS Cole bombing was between 400-1000 lbs, someone could do some real big damage.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 3:46:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2005 3:50:02 PM EDT by GUNGUY1911]

Originally Posted By st0newall:

Originally Posted By pbaeod:
Chris Cherry is an independant contractor who makes EOD products of debateable reliablity. Undetectable sheet explosive it'sdeta sheet and it is very detectable and works just like C-4. somebody is hosed because you can't store that stuff without a monitered security system.



gosh.. i hate to say this.. because someone will show up at my door...

its close to new years... its close to christmans. think malls, think public celebrations, think football games..

'you cant store that stuff without a monitored security system'

mayhap they aren't thinking about storing it.. they're gonna use it soon....

He was talking about the people it was stolen FROM having to monitor it !

ETA: I wonder how many foreign students Sandia Nat'l. Labs has working there? Seems that our National research facilities need MAJOR security overhauls!
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 3:47:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AZMAN-1:
One would think that the 'Senior explosives scientist' from Sandia Nat'l Labs. (Which at one time was/still may be a DOD facility) Would really know now to keep this shit safe!!!



"senior explosives scientist" == administrative drone.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 3:47:20 PM EDT
With military explosives it either on your person or stored in a army corps of engineer certified magazine. So if it was left unmonitered or stored improperly. Somebody is in a world of crap.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 3:48:41 PM EDT
Sheet explosive that we used is easily detectible by a explosive sniffing dog. The stuff was straight RDX, note C-4 is 91% RDX.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 3:48:42 PM EDT

Trust me, a rated magazine IS a hard target to gain unauthorized access.


+1

My brother is a mining engineer. He says it is very difficult to break into an explosives magazine.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 3:48:54 PM EDT
Sounds like an inside job. These guys knew just where to apply the torch to gain access.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 3:52:26 PM EDT
400 lbs of plastique set right, (dampered shaped charges) could bring down any fucking building in this country. This is BAD.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 3:53:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GUNGUY1911:

Originally Posted By st0newall:

Originally Posted By pbaeod:
Chris Cherry is an independant contractor who makes EOD products of debateable reliablity. Undetectable sheet explosive it'sdeta sheet and it is very detectable and works just like C-4. somebody is hosed because you can't store that stuff without a monitered security system.



gosh.. i hate to say this.. because someone will show up at my door...

its close to new years... its close to christmans. think malls, think public celebrations, think football games..

'you cant store that stuff without a monitored security system'

mayhap they aren't thinking about storing it.. they're gonna use it soon....

He was talking about the people it was stolen FROM having to monitor it !

ETA: I wonder how many foreign students Sandia Nat'l. Labs has working there? Seems that our National research facilities need MAJOR security overhauls!



indeed.. i see the error of my ways.. don't know much about requirements in storing explosives...

however i will note that a theft like this has got set off a lot of alarms .. what with the terrorist issues and so forth. so you prolly don't wanna steel this stuff to sell at the local pawn shop.. and it is christmas.. THE key day for christians. what better time to do the next big attack. and you have malls and big churchs... not to mention football bowls and such.....

Link Posted: 12/19/2005 3:56:10 PM EDT
This is not good
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 4:30:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2005 4:47:43 PM EDT by C-4]
Well duh . . .

Link Posted: 12/19/2005 4:34:01 PM EDT
Probably just kids having fun. It's all fun and games untill someone loses an eye.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 4:34:16 PM EDT
A few peoples asses is gonna be mighty sore from the microscope the ATF is gonna shove up there.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 4:37:21 PM EDT
What does one need with all that explosive anyway?

Why was it originally there?

Link Posted: 12/19/2005 4:39:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tpuls:

Trust me, a rated magazine IS a hard target to gain unauthorized access.


+1

My brother is a mining engineer. He says it is very difficult to break into an explosives magazine.



Which is why it is very, very, very important that you make sure that you have the key for the lock IN YOUR HAND when you secure the mag..
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 4:43:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gravity_Tester:

Originally Posted By tpuls:
He says it is very difficult to break into an explosives magazine.



Which is why it is very, very, very important that you make sure that you have the key for the lock IN YOUR HAND when you secure the mag..



Sounds like you may have learned that one the hard way.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 4:46:27 PM EDT
It's a lot more likely to be bank robbers than terrorists.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 4:49:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:
It's a lot more likely to be bank robbers than terrorists.



Well all my attempts at posting a picture from the movie "Heat" have failed.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 4:50:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dilbert_556:

Originally Posted By Gravity_Tester:

Originally Posted By tpuls:
He says it is very difficult to break into an explosives magazine.



Which is why it is very, very, very important that you make sure that you have the key for the lock IN YOUR HAND when you secure the mag..



Sounds like you may have learned that one the hard way.



I may or may not know someone who may have accidentaly left the keys in the mag while in a hurry to deliver initiators to a production area on a busy Saturday night.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 4:53:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:
It's a lot more likely to be bank robbers than terrorists.



i agree..

however it is curiously close to the holidays. whoever stole it probably knows it will bring serious heat down on everything.. so steal it and use it quick.

anyway, what would you rob that required 150 lbs of c4? fort knox? why take so much?
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 4:53:53 PM EDT
Im going to go out on a limb and guess it wasn't stolen by terrorist. It's not the first nor the last time large amounts of explosives have been stolen.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 4:55:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By st0newall:

Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:
It's a lot more likely to be bank robbers than terrorists.



i agree..

however it is curiously close to the holidays. whoever stole it probably knows it will bring serious heat down on everything.. so steal it and use it quick.

anyway, what would you rob that required 150 lbs of c4? fort knox? why take so much?


You need more than 400lbs of c4 to break into fort knox.


I would guess some hill billy farmer or some drunk indians.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 4:59:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By olyarms:

Originally Posted By st0newall:

Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:
It's a lot more likely to be bank robbers than terrorists.



i agree..

however it is curiously close to the holidays. whoever stole it probably knows it will bring serious heat down on everything.. so steal it and use it quick.

anyway, what would you rob that required 150 lbs of c4? fort knox? why take so much?


You need more than 400lbs of c4 to break into fort knox.


I would guess some hill billy farmer or some drunk indians.



400lbs of c4 is ALOT of power. I doubt much can withstand that. Sure you can break into fort knox, but how are you planning on stealing the gold? each brick weghs about 30lb if I am not mistaken.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 5:11:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By zer04evr:

Originally Posted By olyarms:

Originally Posted By st0newall:

Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:
It's a lot more likely to be bank robbers than terrorists.



i agree..

however it is curiously close to the holidays. whoever stole it probably knows it will bring serious heat down on everything.. so steal it and use it quick.

anyway, what would you rob that required 150 lbs of c4? fort knox? why take so much?


You need more than 400lbs of c4 to break into fort knox.


I would guess some hill billy farmer or some drunk indians.



400lbs of c4 is ALOT of power. I doubt much can withstand that. Sure you can break into fort knox, but how are you planning on stealing the gold? each brick weghs about 30lb if I am not mistaken.


Your gonna get shot, 400lbs isnt enough to fight the USA Army.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 10:55:44 PM EDT
“A few peoples asses is gonna be mighty sore from the microscope the ATF is gonna shove up there.”

“With military explosives it either on your person or stored in a army corps of engineer certified magazine. So if it was left unmonitered or stored improperly. Somebody is in a world of crap.”




On tonight’s local evening news, the feds are saying the explosives were stored properly and no charges would be brought against the owner.

“Probably just kids having fun. It's all fun and games untill someone loses an eye.”

“I would guess some hill billy farmer or some drunk indians”

“It's a lot more likely to be bank robbers than terrorists.”


I doubt drunk Indians or hillbilly farmers, not skilled enough. I also doubt a NM bank robber. There are dozens of bank robberies in NM each year, and the perps walk in, hand a demand note, and walk out with the cash. Trying to blow open a bank and vault with explosives seems massively more complicated with a lesser chance of success.



Okay, I’ll hazard a guess.
My guess is it’s a semi-professional heist with terroristic goals.

Considering the following...

1. Time of the year, Christmas.

2. The huge amount stolen. 400lbs. It took increased time to steal all that, which increased their chances of being caught breaking into a monitored bunker. Perhaps their final plans actually required that large an amount.

3. The type of explosives stolen. 150lbs of C-4, 20,000 ft of det cord, and 2500 detonators suggests the thieves have targets that homemade explosives were not sophisticated enough for.

4. They hit a hardened target, very successfully. That requires at least a bit of surveillance, planning, training, and professional execution.

5. This theft will pull in some serious investigative talent, so it would be best to use it quickly, and having your target ten miles away certainly helps. An international airport, Kirtland AFB, and Sandia National Lab. The lab plays a large role in developing new weapons against terrorism. All can be physically accessed by foot rather easily, a vehicle loaded with 400 lbs of explosive may have a slightly tougher time, unless it was driven by a suicidal driver. Of course, someone could disguise the explosives as Christmas presents, openly load them into a small aircraft and deliver a massive blow to a much wider variety of targets.


There is a slim chance this was an attempt by the owner to cover up under-the-table sales or sloppy business/accounting practices, although 400 lbs and 2500 detonators is a hell of a lot to lose. While in LE, I received two Reports of Investigation concerning military armories, and they were both bogus "thefts". Just people trying to cover up lost/stolen stuff they were required to account for.

Link Posted: 12/19/2005 11:22:20 PM EDT
This sounds like some real serious crap to me. IF it is terrorists may they blow themselves up as per Okla. City Johnny Jihad. These guys sound like professionals however. Why would you need 400 pounds of explosives for a bank heist? That really doesn't make sense to me.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 12:00:44 AM EDT
If it were really terrorists (the Jihadist type anyway), wouldn't they just make their own explosives? They know how to do this. By making their own, they would be keeping a low profile and not tipping their hand. Obviously, stealing a huge amount of C4 is a tipoff that someone may be planning on blowing up something.

My bet is that these are just local idiots who stole this stuff in an effort to make a profit by selling it to other idiots. Or perhaps they plan on using it themselves to commit some criminal act. But I just seriously doubt this was the work of foreign terrorists.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 12:11:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 12:13:35 AM EDT by raven]

Originally Posted By CRC:
What does one need with all that explosive anyway?

Why was it originally there?




Chris Cherry
Distinguished Member of the Technical Staff
Sandia National Laboratories
Albuquerque, New Mexico


Mr. Chris Cherry is an Explosives Systems Design Engineer in the Systems Assessment and Research Center at Sandia National Laboratories. Currently, he is involved in the research and development of specialized explosive systems, explosive entry, shaped charge technology and advanced explosives ordnance disposal (EOD) disablement tools.

Mr. Cherry has invented, designed and patented may EOD and Explosive tools including: the PAN Disrupter (a versatile non-electric shock tube actuated disrupter), the Mineral Water Bottle Disrupter System, the Fast Response Wire Cutter, the Hydra-Jet™, the Sherwood Special™ Projectile, the Magic Cube™, the Large Vehicle Bomb Countermeasures Systems (civilian), and HEAD (military). Mr. Cherry has designed many advanced initiation and explosive breaching systems. He provides advanced training for military personnel as well as local, State and Federal bomb squads, and is the creator of Operation America

A native of Virginia, and a graduate of Old Dominion University, Mr. Cherry has had a very diverse professional work experience and background. He served in the U.S. Army Special Forces (1970-1972). He was a chemistry and math teacher at Ferguson High School in Newport News, VA, and a chemist/marine chemist for Newport News Shipbuilding, Newport News. He was employed by the Department of Defense as a Chemical Engineer/Supervisory Engineer at the NAVAL EOD Technology Center (Indian Head, MD) for the Disablement Branch of the Improvised Nuclear Devices Division.

http://www.columbusfdn.org/homelandsecurity/2004-3.asp
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 12:19:13 AM EDT
Anyone know where Bush and Cheney were when this happened? If they didn't take it themselves, they had to have something to do with it
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 12:30:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By olyarms:

Originally Posted By st0newall:

Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:
It's a lot more likely to be bank robbers than terrorists.



i agree..

however it is curiously close to the holidays. whoever stole it probably knows it will bring serious heat down on everything.. so steal it and use it quick.

anyway, what would you rob that required 150 lbs of c4? fort knox? why take so much?


You need more than 400lbs of c4 to break into fort knox.


I would guess some hill billy farmer or some drunk indians.




Well that doesn't really narrow down the field of suspects at all.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 12:31:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
If it were really terrorists (the Jihadist type anyway), wouldn't they just make their own explosives? They know how to do this.



Team Jihad seems to know how to make a really unstable, but powerful and easy to make explosive from acetone and peroxide called TATP. RDX is harder to make, needs more expertise and harder-to-acquire chemicals.

They dont seem to use RDX-based explosives much except in Russia/Chechnya and Pakistan/India.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 4:32:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MudBug:

Originally Posted By olyarms:
I would guess some hill billy farmer or some drunk indians.


Well that doesn't really narrow down the field of suspects at all.



Ain't that the truth!
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 4:37:24 AM EDT
I think it was just some ARFCOMMERS looking to have some quality fun at the range.Tannerite does get boring after a while.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 4:45:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Pangea:
It's all fun and games untill someone loses an eye.



....and then it's just fun!

(except in this case, where somebody is going to loose much more than just an eye)
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 4:57:09 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:03:55 AM EDT
The stolen detonators bother me more than the stolen explosives. You can make explosives in your bathtub, or with stuff in the garage. Quality detonators are tough to make.

It'll be interesting to see where they start turning up, and how. This sucks.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 6:56:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dilbert_556:

Originally Posted By pbaeod:
Chris Cherry is an independant contractor who makes EOD products of debateable reliablity. Undetectable sheet explosive it'sdeta sheet and it is very detectable and works just like C-4. somebody is hosed because you can't store that stuff without a monitered security system.



Is it detectable at the airports with current equipment? I sure as hell hope so.



Yep explosives can be detected in the parts per trillion range if the material is sniffed. Pretty much the same stuff as c-4.

Link Posted: 12/20/2005 6:58:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pbaeod:
With military explosives it either on your person or stored in a army corps of engineer certified magazine. So if it was left unmonitered or stored improperly. Somebody is in a world of crap.



I thought it had to be stored in DDESB approved magazines after completing an ESS.

Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:21:41 AM EDT
here is a question for the eod people around here.

the sheet explosives, could you put a sheet or two in a book cover and have it scanned by normal airport security with out them noticing it. i mean is it thin enough not to get any attention, i mean its not a block of the stuff. then when on the plane just press the book on the side of the plane when it is detonated.

i have seen simple hard cover books just run thru the xray and handed back to the person with no open searches, and a sheet of something would not be "seen" by the machine.

minor highjack....heck i saw a simple book go thru an xray machine that had a gun, and 2 extra mags in it, a wallet also went thru the machine that had a badge in it, then i got quickly removed from where i could see the screen. the owner of the "book" then went straight to the bathroom after he cleared xray, he was also on my flight, made me feel better.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:28:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By scotty1911:
minor highjack....heck i saw a simple book go thru an xray machine that had a gun, and 2 extra mags in it, a wallet also went thru the machine that had a badge in it, then i got quickly removed from where i could see the screen. the owner of the "book" then went straight to the bathroom after he cleared xray, he was also on my flight, made me feel better.



US Marshall with some airplane reading material?
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:28:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 7:29:21 AM EDT by u-baddog]

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:
It's a lot more likely to be bank robbers than terrorists.



Well all my attempts at posting a picture from the movie "Heat" have failed.




Fixed it for ya
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:29:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By scotty1911:
here is a question for the eod people around here.

the sheet explosives, could you put a sheet or two in a book cover and have it scanned by normal airport security with out them noticing it. i mean is it thin enough not to get any attention, i mean its not a block of the stuff. then when on the plane just press the book on the side of the plane when it is detonated.

i have seen simple hard cover books just run thru the xray and handed back to the person with no open searches, and a sheet of something would not be "seen" by the machine.

minor highjack....heck i saw a simple book go thru an xray machine that had a gun, and 2 extra mags in it, a wallet also went thru the machine that had a badge in it, then i got quickly removed from where i could see the screen. the owner of the "book" then went straight to the bathroom after he cleared xray, he was also on my flight, made me feel better.




You would need a detonator too. I would like to think that TSA could find one hidden in your stuff but I am not sure they can.

Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:42:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JIMBEAM:



You would need a detonator too. I would like to think that TSA could find one hidden in your stuff but I am not sure they can.




well i would bet a short fuse, about 1 inch and a detonator would fit in to a pen and not be recognized for what it is on xray

and now i am going to lock the dogs up and lay on the floor by the front door, i dont want to resist in any way
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:43:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
If it were really terrorists (the Jihadist type anyway), wouldn't they just make their own explosives? They know how to do this. By making their own, they would be keeping a low profile and not tipping their hand. Obviously, stealing a huge amount of C4 is a tipoff that someone may be planning on blowing up something.

My bet is that these are just local idiots who stole this stuff in an effort to make a profit by selling it to other idiots. Or perhaps they plan on using it themselves to commit some criminal act. But I just seriously doubt this was the work of foreign terrorists.



If your smart enough to make your own HE you should be smart enough to not believe the crap about killing yourself and banging virgins all day. Dont give the terrorists too much credit.
Look at the recent bombings in London. The first round went fine but they failed on the 2nd try I think that maybe because of a poorly made batch of PET or like others have stated good Blasting caps are alot harder to make.

Im leaning like you towards local yahoo's pulling this off but I wouldnt be surprised if it was raghead types either.
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