I would say with all that C4 but specifically the det cord and detonators could bring down a large building by taking out the parking garage underneath.

Great....I'm going to NM for a few days. I hope nothing goes down there.

Using a torch near C4 isn't that big a deal; unlike most explosives, it won't explode, it'll just burn and give off toxic fumes. You need an electrical ignition or a blasting cap to set it off.

tag

I hate to say this but this type of explosive is the ideal material for a suicide bomber belt.
Very powerful, easily formed to wrap around a body and very safe to handle.
I doubt this was local kids or BillyBob looking for some fun. This could be very bad.

Rich V

Quoted: Using a torch near C4 isn't that big a deal; unlike most explosives, it won't explode, it'll just burn and give off toxic fumes. You need an electrical ignition or a blasting cap to set it off.

There were thousands of those in there too!

If you light c-4 it will burn unless it is exposed to shock or confinment which would generate pressure. If a person had it in them and took their time I am sure you could make any device to do any tipe of work Deta sheet is about an 1/8 of and inch thick. More than likely the explosives won't be tracked until someone tries to use it. New Issue c-4 has tagant in it which is lot # specific. it is actualy hard to get an explosive that has the brisance of C-4 which is it's shattering effect. Somebody familiar with explosives probably took. Anything beyond that is speculation there are so many whatiffs invovled

Die Hard quote - "Give me duh detonatuhs"

Quoted: Quoted: Using a torch near C4 isn't that big a deal; unlike most explosives, it won't explode, it'll just burn and give off toxic fumes. You need an electrical ignition or a blasting cap to set it off. There were thousands of those in there too!

THe operator better hope not--it's a violation to store detonators and explosives in the same mag..The three letter boys will be so far up your ass that you'll be able to taste hairspray.

Quoted: Die Hard quote - "Give me duh detonatuhs"

No, that was from Max Payne. At least that's how the guy in Max Payne sounded. I'm sure the guy in Die Hard sounded German.

Spooky situation. Has anybody considered the possibility that the stuff was stolen just for it's value on the black market? Anybody know what this stuff is worth?

.


ETA: Fox News

Well,

I obviously need to revise my guess.

From watching the evening news, it appears a trained chimp could have pulled off this theft.    

A camera crew showed the scene.   This "secure" storage area is nothing more than a group of semi trailers with the wheels removed.   All sitting out in the middle of a prairie, with a filmsy 4ft-high wire fence around the trailers.   You could see a cop car 5 miles away.

There is significant graffiti on the trailers and the fence had been cut through in several places.   It doesn't appear there is even electricity to the site.

The theft occurred between Dec 13 and Dec 18.

And this is an ATF-approved explosive storage facility?   I assumed it was a hardened bunker, with high-security locks and alarms.       Perhaps "monitored" means someone drives by it once a week.

Quoted: Only if they spent many, many hours drilling and placing charges around the supports on some of the Huge Buildings (Empire State, etc).  Just blowing that much next to a building wouldn't knock many over (smaller ones, lots of damage, but it would do some severe damage (ala Oklahoma City) What captainpooby posted above about in the parking garage under a large building would have a much greater effect, that is the only way to get the most pressure from the blast to impact the structure (next to putting the charges into drilled holes in supports)

Actually, OKC would have been worse if they had tamped the blast to direct it towards the structure. The blast was omni-directional and was less effective. If old Timmy had attended one of my classes in the Army, he would have learned this.

As for the storage area, it surprises me. Frieght trailers with the wheels removed? Wow.

Well, hopefully it was an amatuer and he blows himself to hell and not a technical bomb guy planning an op. Hard to defend against a bomb with a hand gun.

See if this works, news video showing the storage facility, any numbnuts could have gotten into this place and made off with this stuff.


www.krqe.com/video/expanded.asp?ID=3500

Fixed it maybe

Were the explosives being stored at the lab?

These are risk code 2 explosives and should have been stored in an alarmed facility.

Somebodys head should roll.

ETA: It been awhile since I looked at the compatibility group tables but I also thought it was illegal to store caps (B) and C-4 (D) in the same structure?

Don't even get me started about the possible Quantity Distance problems related to this.

But...ATF said they were properly stored so who am I to second guess them.

Quoted: Were the explosives being stored at the lab? These are risk code 2 explosives and should have been stored in an alarmed facility. Somebodys head should roll.

See the link right above your post for footage of the storage facility. Looks like all they probably had to get through were a couple of padlocks.

Quoted: Waitaminute... If those were undetectable explosives,  how do we KNOW they're gone?       CJ

Thankfully the "undetectable" part of the news report has been shown to be BS.

Wiseass  

Isn't this roughly the same area that the Chechnyans that were associated with the group that did the Beslan school massacre disappear into?? If this particular group of ROPers got it..............

wganz
¶

Quoted: Were the explosives being stored at the lab? These are risk code 2 explosives and should have been stored in an alarmed facility. Somebodys head should roll. ETA: It been awhile since I looked at the compatibility group tables but I also thought it was illegal to store caps (B) and C-4 (D) in the same structure? Don't even get me started about the possible Quantity Distance problems related to this. But...ATF said they were properly stored so who am I to second guess them.

Why would .gov need to play by 27 CFR?

And caps+energetics+same magazine=big fat no-no.

Not only for the obvious reason of keeping caps with energetics being dangerous, but to make STEALING THEM MORE DIFFICULT.

Neato! Some idiot created a 1.1 Circle K.....

.

My old unit's magazine, we had detonators and plenty of C-4 in it.   We had a waiver too.  

We kept the caps in a old classified safe and had a nice wall of sandbags in between the safe and the C-4.   The caps could have all detonated and nothing would have happened to the C-4 at all.

Two local news stations reported the storage area was southwest of Albuquerque, quite a way from Sandia Lab.   It may have been on Lab-owned or -leased land, but it didn't appear to have any security features you see at the Lab.   Based on the photos of the storage area background, I believe I know where this location is.  Titan Energy operated the site before Cherry.

The news also said the govenor's Gulfstream jet is being used to fly in a bomb-sniffing dog.   WTF?   we've got plenty of bomb dogs in this state already.   This has got to be the most expensive canine transport in recent history.


An update at 8pm said there is evidence the theft may not be terror related, but didn't go into detail.


Update at 9pm local time : in 2003 350lbs of ammonium nitrate were also stolen from this site.
A closer look at the site shows only a couple of the 10+ trailers have their wheels removed.   The others look like the are ready for hookup to a semi tractor.

Quoted: My old unit's magazine, we had detonators and plenty of C-4 in it.   We had a waiver too.   We kept the caps in a old classified safe and had a nice wall of sandbags in between the safe and the C-4.   The caps could have all detonated and nothing would have happened to the C-4 at all.

But you probably also did (real) 7 day inspects, had controlled access, and (just guessin' here) could shoot folks messing with the toybox....

Quoted: <snip> The theft is one of the largest reported cases from a facility in the United States in the last decade ending 2004. During that time, a total of about 1,000 pounds was reported stolen from government facilities in 14 reported incidents. It is unknown whether there is any connection to terrorism. <snip>

Just to nitpick (at the story, not you), this theft doesn't even fall into the range.  "[T]he last decade ending [in] 2004" would start Jan 01 of 1995 and end Dec 31 2004.

The reporter SHOULD HAVE WORDED IT something like "This theft was one of the largest <blah blah> in/of the last 10-12 years."

Quoted: <snip> ETA:  I wonder how many foreign students Sandia Nat'l. Labs has working there?  Seems that our National research facilities need MAJOR security overhauls!

Seems like the last folks who said that are no longer working there...............  

Quoted: What does one need with all that explosive anyway? Why was it originally there?

+1.

They should just trust 911 like the rest of us.........

Quoted: Great....I'm going to NM for a few days. I hope nothing goes down there.

They're an open carry state, too, aren't they?  Should be able to Draw Down® on any Hadjis tryin' to disturb the peace.

Quoted: <snip> As for the storage area, it surprises me. Frieght trailers with the wheels removed? Wow. Well, hopefully it was an amatuer and he blows himself to hell and not a technical bomb guy planning an op. Hard to defend against a bomb with a hand gun.

If that's the case, wouldn't a "real" professional (someone who had good intel; either from inside or from good surveilance) have simply driven a cab-over out there and thrown some wheels on the bitch?

Seriously, though, if that IS the case, some gangbangers (refer back to the tagging) might have wound up with more than they bargained for.

Quoted: Quoted: Were the explosives being stored at the lab? These are risk code 2 explosives and should have been stored in an alarmed facility. Somebodys head should roll. See the link right above your post for footage of the storage facility. Looks like all they probably had to get through were a couple of padlocks.

That "Keep Away: High Explosives!" sign translates directly to Arabic as "Please steal me".

I dont see what the big deal is. The stuff gets stolen all the time. That quantity one could easily build a sodium nitrate bomb of the same weight and not raise suspicion getting the materieals. The only thing you would use C4 at that amound for (unless you were stupid) would be to blow bridges or cut stuff. Think High order Vs low order. Also remember C4 has taggant.

Whoever stole it was probably contracted to do so. Whoever got them to do it probably isnt going to use it but probably sell it. They will probably sit on it for a little while before doing it too.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted:   He says it is very difficult to break into an explosives magazine. Which is why it is very, very, very important that you make sure that you have the key for the lock IN YOUR HAND when you secure the mag.. Sounds like you may have learned that one the hard way. I may or may not know someone who may have accidentaly left the keys in the mag while in a hurry to deliver initiators to a production area on a busy Saturday night.

Isn't that one reason they make locks that you can't remove the key from until you're locking it?  And with a small chain to attach the padlock to the door?

Undetectable explosives stolen in New Mexico

I'm betting if whoever stole them blows something up with them, they'll be pretty fuckin' detectable.

I would be more worried about whatelse they keep there.

Wow they have all sorts of lovely Stuff they keep there.

Just when you thought your opinion of the ATF couldn't get any lower.............


Try to forget you ever read this, when the TSA is treating you like a criminal at the airport...


No Leads, No Suspects In Stolen Explosives
ATF Plans No Policy Changes

POSTED: 6:37 am MST December 20, 2005
UPDATED: 7:30 pm MST December 20, 2005

ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. -- Federal investigators have joined with Albuquerque police and state police in the hunt for hundreds of pounds of plastic explosives stolen Sunday at a secure Albuquerque storage facility.

Also missing are 2,500 blasting caps, 250 pounds of deta sheets and an undetermined length of explosive detonation cords.

Deta sheets are especially dangerous. They can be hidden in books or letters and cannot be spotted by a metal detector.

Engineers use them for detonation.

The director of the federal Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Agency in New Mexico, Wayne Dixie, said the materials are highly explosive.

In the hands of those who know how to use it, there is enough explosive material to level a building, Dixie said.

Authorities are offering a reward of up to $50,000 for information that helps them recover the stolen goods, which burglars used a blowtorch to bars to get to.

No Leads, No Suspects

Dixie said authorities have no leads and no suspects.

The materials are owned by Cherry Engineering, Inc., a federally certified explosives storage facility in compliance with ATF regulations, Dixie said. The site was inspected weekly.

Chris Cherry, who owns the engineering company, is a scientist responsible for many innovations in explosives disruption. He's also an employee of Sandia National Laboratories.

His techniques are used by police bomb squads, ABC News reported.

"It is a very dangerous material, we want to keep this off the streets," Cherry said.

While Cherry works for Sandia, the explosives were not stolen from a Sandia Lab facility.

"Cherry is a research scientist at Sandia National Laboratories, and owns a business that is not affiliated with Sandia," according to an official lab news release.

Gov. Bill Richardson, who learned of the theft Sunday night, recommended not jumping to conclusions about public safety.

He said there is the possibility the explosives were taken simply so they could be sold.

"We don't think there is a threat to New Mexico, we think it may be somebody trying to make a profit or somebody that has a mental problem, but we don't know, so it's important that we move fast," said Richardson.

ATF: 'We're Not Changing A Thing'

Action 7 News asked ATF if they plan on upping security or changing policies after the theft.

You may be surprised by the answer.

"The standards aren't gonna change," one official said. "The regulations ATF has in place have been proven over a period of time that they work."

There are no security cameras, no guards, and only a fence covered in warning signs at the site of the crime. that they work."

There are 84 sites statewide like the one thieves targeted and all have similar security regulations.

As of now, current ATF regulations read like this:

First, businesses must have storage units for the explosive materials that meet federal standards.

Second, companies must keep detailed, up-to-date records, including keeping inventory of the explosives.

Lastly, if any of the materials are missing or stolen, the company must report it to local, state and federal authorities within 24 hours.
Explosives missing from site again

By Maggie Shepard
Tribune Reporter
December 20, 2005

Updated 2:45 p.m. In the post-Sept. 11, 2001, era, one might assume bomb-making materials would be under the tightest possible security.

In fact, they sit unattended in the New Mexico desert, guarded by little more than lock and key.

Bernalillo County Sheriff Darren White says he doesn't understand it.

"You have to question the logic behind federal regulations that prohibited you from carrying nail clippers onto an airplane, but allow you to store high-grade explosives in a poorly protected site in the middle of nowhere," White said.

On Sunday afternoon, 400 pounds of military-grade plastic explosives, 20,000 feet of explosive detonation cord and 2,500 blasting caps - enough material to flatten a large building, experts say - were found to be missing from a storage facility about nine miles southwest of Albuquerque, agents from the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives announced Monday.

A lot of tips have been called into ATF agents at a three-day emergency operation at Albuquerque's dispatch center, said ATF spokesman Tom Mangan.

The private storage facility, owned and operated by internationally known Albuquerque explosives expert Chris Cherry, was in compliance with ATF regulations, said Wayne Dixie, special agent in charge of the agency's Albuquerque office.

The facility was also in compliance in December 2003 when, under a different owner, 350 pounds of explosive ammonium nitrate pellets were stolen from the site.

That material, similar to the type used to blow up the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City in 1995, was later recovered abandoned on a deserted roadside.

"It is concerning to me that the same thing happened twice at the same location," said Tim Manning, director of the state Office of Homeland Security.

He said he wasn't aware of the double theft until he was informed by a reporter.

The explosives missing Sunday were designed to shatter and break material, Mangan, speaking from Phoenix, said. Gone are 150 pounds of plastic explosive in brick form, he said, plus 250 pounds in rolled-up sheet form.

The rope-like detonator cord, when wrapped around a tree, can demolish it, Mangan said.

Dixie said the missing material is not explosive until attached to a detonator, adding he hopes the person who stole it doesn't have that knowledge.

But the thief knew enough to travel deserted roads to reach the storage lot, get over or through its padlocked gate and break into two metal trailers.

Dixie would not say how the thief entered the trailers between regularly scheduled inspections Dec. 13 and Dec. 18. Tools were also stolen, he said.

It is the ATF's responsibility to regulate and ensure the state's 84 licensed storage facilities are secure, Mangan said.

The facilities store explosives for mining and demolition companies, as well as for law enforcement bomb squad practice.

According to ATF regulations, the explosives stored at the Cherry engineering site had to be contained in a trailer or facility that was bullet-, fire-, weather- and theft-resistant.

Each door required two mortise locks, two padlocks, a three-point lock or some combination of those locks, according to the regulation. No locks are necessary for facilities "adequately secured on the inside."

"It does make you scratch your head when you see all of the precautions we're taking (elsewhere)," White said. "It defies common sense."

White is talking with county leaders about pursuing tighter security on storage facilities. He wouldn't say how many there are in Bernalillo County.

"Or, let's get rid of them altogether," he said.

After the 2003 theft, White and John Denko, secretary of the state Department of Public Safety, called for increased security and scrutiny of the site.

Manning said he will investigate what changes were made at the facility, if any, after the previous burglary.

"I want to find out why and what can be done to change that," Manning said.

He said one thing that has changed since the 2003 incident is coordination of law enforcement's response.

Within hours of this weekend's theft being reported to the ATF, calls went out to the Albuquerque Police Department, the Sheriff's Department, the FBI and the New Mexico State Police.

Monday morning, staff from each agency gathered at APD's dispatch center to begin the emergency operation.

Dixie said the agencies are now ready for quick response to tips called in to Crime Stoppers at 843-STOP. A $50,000 reward is offered for any information leading to the recovery of the explosives, Dixie said.

The federal Homeland Security Office in Washington is also plugged into the operation. Manning has been updating the agency regularly since he was first notified of the incident Sunday about 5 p.m., he said.

"That info goes to the central agency. They can connect the dots," Manning said of any possibly similar incidents elsewhere in the country.

He said federal agents have not learned of an intended use for a large quantity of explosives in the United States.

"Right now it is very concerning, very dangerous material. But it is also important to note that there is not any particular threat associated (with it)," Manning said.

Quoted: here is a question for the eod people around here. the sheet explosives, could you put a sheet or two in a book cover and have it scanned by normal airport security with out them noticing it. i mean is it thin enough not to get any attention, i mean its not a block of the stuff. then when on the plane just press the book on the side of the plane when it is detonated. i have seen simple hard cover books just run thru the xray and handed back to the person with no open searches, and a sheet of something would not be "seen" by the machine. minor highjack....heck i saw a simple book go thru an xray machine that had a gun, and 2 extra mags in it, a wallet also went thru the machine that had a badge in it, then i got quickly removed from where i could see the screen. the owner of the "book" then went straight to the bathroom after he cleared xray, he was also on my flight, made me feel better.

Explosives show up differently on an x-ray machine than paper does.  It's a lot denser and will not be transparent enough to put it simply. Plus the detonators of course.

And the fear of terrorism would make it a perfect distraction for bank robbers IMO.

The authorities are saying that someone might have stolen it with the intent to sell. This ain't gold at some point in time it will be put to use. I guess civillians don't have the same storage requirements that the military does. With a rolling pin and cheese cutter you can do the same thing with C-4 that you can do with deta sheet. Most EOD bunkers are big enough that you can store caps and bang in the same bunker without issue the caps just have to be seperated and bunkered with sand bags or a big ass safe Fort bliss has a nuc weapon bunker so it has a bunker within a bunker so it is perfect for EOD storage I am stationed on a chem weapons depot so our bang is the least of our worries when it comes to theft.

Wonder if they made their way to Ohio...

This space intentionally left blank

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted:   He says it is very difficult to break into an explosives magazine. Which is why it is very, very, very important that you make sure that you have the key for the lock IN YOUR HAND when you secure the mag.. Sounds like you may have learned that one the hard way. I may or may not know someone who may have accidentaly left the keys in the mag while in a hurry to deliver initiators to a production area on a busy Saturday night. Isn't that one reason they make locks that you can't remove the key from until you're locking it?  And with a small chain to attach the padlock to the door?

No, that's the reason they make locks with interchangeable cores--so you can wake up the one site security guy who knows how to rekey stuff, call him in, listen to him bitch for an hour while he pulls the core, rekeys it, opens the mag, retrieves the key ring, secures the mag (2 locks) re-re-keys the lock under your control, and then sends a nasty gram to pretty much everyone in your department...

Quoted: The authorities are saying that someone might have stolen it with the intent to sell. This ain't gold at some point in time it will be put to use. I guess civillians don't have the same storage requirements that the military does. With a rolling pin and cheese cutter you can do the same thing with C-4 that you can do with deta sheet. Most EOD bunkers are big enough that you can store caps and bang in the same bunker without issue the caps just have to be seperated and bunkered with sand bags or a big ass safe Fort bliss has a nuc weapon bunker so it has a bunker within a bunker so it is perfect for EOD storage I am stationed on a chem weapons depot so our bang is the least of our worries when it comes to theft.

Another EOD tech in the fray.

When I was with the 53rd, our bunker was rediculously small unlike our sister units the 927th or the unit down at Ft Irwin.  It was such a joke, I think we would have been better served keeping all the bang in our vaults in the unit and we didn't have to contend with farking rats.   We had hantavirus on that installation too and in fact I talked to a guy on a incident who a few days later died from it.

I saw that the other day, & i couldn't help but connect it with this story. What do you guys think?


Venezuela

Quoted: I saw that the other day, & i couldn't help but connect it with this story. What do you guys think? Venezuela

God I hope not.

Quoted: Sounds like an inside job. These guys knew just where to apply the torch to gain access.

 That's actually the easy part......not only that, but magazines rated for this kind of stuff are also VERY insulated so cutting into them isn't too big of a problem unless you work where Gravity Tester and I work....THEN you could be in for a world of hurt.  G'tester and I work with RAW stuff, rocket grade propellants and such.  Rated storage magazines are built VERY, VERY, VERY tough.....BUT with a proper torch and knowledge of what you are after it isn't hard to bust into them.  I could do it in under two minutes with the proper equipment and get in safely....HOWEVER.....it's the video monitoring system I am wondering about.  HOW was this bypassed?  The hired security bozos at my place would nab someone in a heartbeat if they even set foot on plant grounds we are THAT well wired......yet a NATIONAL LAB wasn't????

Someone is gonna be swinging by their neck.....

ETA: further reading of this thread has revealed to me that the site was NOT monitored......

 that being the case....sounds like they had everything they needed to do the job and do it quickly.

Quoted: Quoted: I saw that the other day, & i couldn't help but connect it with this story. What do you guys think? Venezuela God I hope not.

Yeah, me too. it's just that when i heard the story of the explosives, the other incident popped onto my head. I felt that it sounded like too much of a coincidence that these two incidents happened almost at the same time.  Hmmmm

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted:   He says it is very difficult to break into an explosives magazine. Which is why it is very, very, very important that you make sure that you have the key for the lock IN YOUR HAND when you secure the mag.. Sounds like you may have learned that one the hard way. I may or may not know someone who may have accidentaly left the keys in the mag while in a hurry to deliver initiators to a production area on a busy Saturday night. Isn't that one reason they make locks that you can't remove the key from until you're locking it?  And with a small chain to attach the padlock to the door? No, that's the reason they make locks with interchangeable cores--so you can wake up the one site security guy who knows how to rekey stuff, call him in, listen to him bitch for an hour while he pulls the core, rekeys it, opens the mag, retrieves the key ring, secures the mag (2 locks) re-re-keys the lock under your control, and then sends a nasty gram to pretty much everyone in your department...

 this is one of the reasons litte ol' me has near exclusive access to the keys to my little kindgom....and the Mark of the Beast that grants me said access.  

Quoted: Two local news stations reported the storage area was southwest of Albuquerque, quite a way from Sandia Lab.   It may have been on Lab-owned or -leased land, but it didn't appear to have any security features you see at the Lab.   Based on the photos of the storage area background, I believe I know where this location is.  Titan Energy operated the site before Cherry. The news also said the govenor's Gulfstream jet is being used to fly in a bomb-sniffing dog.   WTF?   we've got plenty of bomb dogs in this state already.   This has got to be the most expensive canine transport in recent history. An update at 8pm said there is evidence the theft may not be terror related, but didn't go into detail. Update at 9pm local time : in 2003 350lbs of ammonium nitrate were also stolen from this site. A closer look at the site shows only a couple of the 10+ trailers have their wheels removed.   The others look like the are ready for hookup to a semi tractor.

I'm sure you are aware that bomb-sniffing dogs are trained for detecting different varieties of energetics. A dog trained on nitrogen based explosives won't alert on peroxide based explosives and vice versa.

I don't know for a fact, but it wouldn't supprise me that certain dogs are trained for the specific batch additives for certain explosives.