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Posted: 12/18/2005 1:29:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2005 1:30:50 PM EDT by mayday]
This blows, how come Ebay users in the Philippines can buy highly restricted SS190 armor piercing rounds but here in the US, we cant even post a stupid ar15 upper for sale. I"m not pissed that its legal in the Philippenes, thats fine...I just can believe that in the US, the asswipe Ebay police will delete any firearm related sale, even for stuff like stocks, barrels and other stuff.

WHISKEY TANGO FOXTROT!!!

http://www.ebay.ph/viItem?ItemId=5839824082
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 1:34:45 PM EDT
They are not armor piercing.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 1:37:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
They are not armor piercing.



Um...think again :

High stopping power:
The Five-seveN® fires the 5.7x28mm SS190 Ball round which reliably penetrates Kevlar helmets and vests as well as CRISAT protection.

http://www.impactguns.com/store/10700000.html
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 1:41:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2005 1:45:14 PM EDT by mcantu]

Originally Posted By mayday:

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
They are not armor piercing.



Um...think again :

High stopping power:
The Five-seveN® fires the 5.7x28mm SS190 Ball round which reliably penetrates Kevlar helmets and vests as well as CRISAT protection.

http://www.impactguns.com/store/10700000.html



The term 'Armor Piercing' has absolutly NOTHING do to with a rounds a ability to penetrate soft body armor...NOTHING.

It has to do with the materials the bullet is made of which enhance its ability to penetrate METAL armor. The SS190 has very similar construction to the SS109 (M855) bullet which the ATF has declared non-AP

And in case anyone is interested the winning bid was $167 for 100 rounds
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 1:49:57 PM EDT
Ah, that should be SS109's if AP, correct?

Note the pretty green tip?

Link Posted: 12/18/2005 1:51:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2005 1:58:35 PM EDT by mayday]


The term 'Armor Piercing' has absolutly NOTHING do to with a rounds a ability to penetrate soft body armor...NOTHING.

It has to do with the materials the bullet is made of which enhance its ability to penetrate METAL armor. The SS190 has very similar construction to the SS109 (M855) bullet which the ATF has declared non-AP

And in case anyone is interested the winning bid was $167 for 100 rounds



Ok, so let me get this straight, the SS190 ammo, which FN created specifically to penetrate body armor, Kevlar helmet @ 200yards as well as CRISAT armor & the ATF restrict ONLY to law enformement agencies...according to you:


has absolutly NOTHING do to with a rounds a ability to penetrate soft body armor...NOTHING.


...ok then
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 2:03:08 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 2:07:51 PM EDT
The SS190 has a steel penetrator and an aluminum core. AFAIK, it has been classified as AP by the ATF because it can be used in a handgun, ie the IOM/USG FiveseveN.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 2:09:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Paul:
Nearly anything shot out of the end of an AR will blow chunks through IIIa soft body armor, which of course can stop pistol ammo. Rifles are not pistols, rounds that penetrate soft body armor are not armor piercing dispite their ability to pierce soft body armor.

Is the box-o-truths and ammo oracle news to you?



Exactly, a 30-06 round will fuck up your day pretty much no matter what your wearing
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 2:09:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2005 2:11:39 PM EDT by mayday]

Originally Posted By Paul:
Nearly anything shot out of the end of an AR will blow chunks through IIIa soft body armor, which of course can stop pistol ammo. Rifles are not pistols, rounds that penetrate soft body armor are not armor piercing dispite their ability to pierce soft body armor.

Is the box-o-truths and ammo oracle news to you?



Then please tell us why the ATF bans this ammo for civilian use? Maybe the ATF needs to go to the ammo-oracle too.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 2:13:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mayday:

Originally Posted By Paul:
Nearly anything shot out of the end of an AR will blow chunks through IIIa soft body armor, which of course can stop pistol ammo. Rifles are not pistols, rounds that penetrate soft body armor are not armor piercing dispite their ability to pierce soft body armor.

Is the box-o-truths and ammo oracle news to you?



Then please tell us why the ATF bans this ammo for civilian use? Maybe the ATF needs to go to the ammo-oracle too.



www.nraila.org/issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?ID=172
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 2:15:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Paul:
Nearly anything shot out of the end of an AR will blow chunks through IIIa soft body armor, which of course can stop pistol ammo. Rifles are not pistols, rounds that penetrate soft body armor are not armor piercing dispite their ability to pierce soft body armor.

Is the box-o-truths and ammo oracle news to you?


There seems to be some confusion here.
The SS-190 is a steel penetrator with an aluminum core round designed to penetrate armor.
The SS-192 is a lead core hollowpoint, which wasn't designed to penetrate armor, but can penetrate some soft armor.
IIRC the -190 was banned simply because of its construction and its ability to be used in a handgun, ie the IOM/USG.
The -192 was voluntarily restricted by FN after some drunk was arrested with an IOM loaded with -192s was arrested in CT.
The -195LF(lead free) duplicates the ballistics of the -192, is not restricted in anyway. However, it will only be produced in Belgium.
The -196, -197 will be produced by Fiocchi USA in the near future.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 2:16:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jrzy:

Originally Posted By mayday:

Originally Posted By Paul:
Nearly anything shot out of the end of an AR will blow chunks through IIIa soft body armor, which of course can stop pistol ammo. Rifles are not pistols, rounds that penetrate soft body armor are not armor piercing dispite their ability to pierce soft body armor.

Is the box-o-truths and ammo oracle news to you?



Then please tell us why the ATF bans this ammo for civilian use? Maybe the ATF needs to go to the ammo-oracle too.



www.nraila.org/issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?ID=172



Did you read your own link?

FN clearly specifies that its statement applies to only the SS190 variety of 5.7mm ammunition, which under federal law is not legal to manufacture or import for sale to the public.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 2:18:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jrzy:

Originally Posted By mayday:

Originally Posted By Paul:
Nearly anything shot out of the end of an AR will blow chunks through IIIa soft body armor, which of course can stop pistol ammo. Rifles are not pistols, rounds that penetrate soft body armor are not armor piercing dispite their ability to pierce soft body armor.

Is the box-o-truths and ammo oracle news to you?



Then please tell us why the ATF bans this ammo for civilian use? Maybe the ATF needs to go to the ammo-oracle too.



www.nraila.org/issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?ID=172



Do you read what you quote? Let me get you a snippet of what you posted"

"FN`s website makes that statement only with regard to "Five-seveN pistols and SS190 round"4 (Emphases in the original.) In boldface type, FN clearly specifies that its statement applies to only the SS190 variety of 5.7mm ammunition, which under federal law is not legal to manufacture or import for sale to the public.

You're confusing the SS192, SS195LF SS196 & SS197 rounds which NO ONE has ever claimed to be amour piercing....BUT the SS190 ammo is under federal law is not legal to manufacture or import for sale to the public.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 2:20:08 PM EDT
The 5.7 x 28 mm ammunition family

The SS190 Standard Ball Round
The L191 Tracer Round : visible trace from 20 m to over 200 m. Trajectory matches Ball Round.
The Sb 193 Subsonic Round : for use with sound suppressor.
The SS192 Soft Round : reduces backstop damage.


http://www.fnherstal.com/html/Index.htm
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 2:21:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ring:
The 5.7 x 28 mm ammunition family

The SS190 Standard Ball Round
The L191 Tracer Round : visible trace from 20 m to over 200 m. Trajectory matches Ball Round.
The Sb 193 Subsonic Round : for use with sound suppressor.
The SS192 Soft Round : reduces backstop damage.


http://www.fnherstal.com/html/Index.htm


Yep, that's the standard round, but it is not ball ammo as you and I would think of it. It is a steel penetrator with an Al core. It has been classified as AP by the BATF.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 2:28:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2005 2:46:11 PM EDT by mcantu]
SS190




The classification of all ammunition is governed strictly by the definitions presented in the GCA. Specifically, as defined in 18 U.S.C. Section 921(a)(17)(B), the term "armor piercing ammunition" means-

1. a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or


2. a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.




I think the SS190 restriction might be one by FN not the ATF; like with the SS192
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 2:32:59 PM EDT
Back on topic, I think this is proof that Ebay might be motivated by their fear of lawsuits more than their hatred of guns and gun-related items.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 2:57:12 PM EDT
BAH! I dont see what the big deal is, I know how to make AP ammo at home. All you need is a few web sites that sell Metals like Tungsten and What-not in rod form. Ya see then what you do is you take ^NNZ $NVVVe% 6^J#@D And then You &ut ir Th3 %(dji Then with your Dermel you Tha4u3 43n%3 11nweebn awMrek 3$% mnCMdj Boxer cartridge and then you EN#%h5 39 nffWEmn3 35nasnn35la; TH3n there yo* have it instant AP! It's so easy a 5 year old could do it!!
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 2:59:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By lu380:
Back on topic, I think this is proof that Ebay might be motivated by their fear of lawsuits more than their hatred of guns and gun-related items.


I think the combination of lawsuits and various state laws is the main problem.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 3:00:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:

... There seems to be some confusion here.



... thanks, I was just getting to type this
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 3:01:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2005 3:06:56 PM EDT by mayday]



I think the SS190 restriction might be one by FN not the ATF; like with the SS192



Oh boy here we go again .

Ok, if you dont believe me, then maybe you'll believe the ATF. Look at the bottom, you'll see that THEY refer to SS190 as [AP] or armor-piercing and therefore restricted to Law Enforcement. OK? They, no me, not FN, they label it like this:

SS190 - Armor piercing (AP)

All other ammo used is NOT ; such as SS192, SS196, SS195LF etc..etc. BUT SS190 IS restricted to Law Enforcement since its AP.

www.atf.gov/firearms/firearmstech/fabriquen.htm

Now can we please put this behind us?
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 3:07:48 PM EDT
I am going to sell a picture of my ar15 and include all of the terms that anti gunners piss their pants when they hear. I am going to list it in the firearms parts category. If this gets banned, it will be an example to other arfcommers to stop using ebay until they get their shit together and take away these unnecesesary rules. Maybe ill make a thread and place bets on how fast it gets taken off.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 3:26:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mayday:



I think the SS190 restriction might be one by FN not the ATF; like with the SS192



Oh boy here we go again .

Ok, if you dont believe me, then maybe you'll believe the ATF. Look at the bottom, you'll see that THEY refer to SS190 as [AP] or armor-piercing and therefore restricted to Law Enforcement. OK? They, no me, not FN, they label it like this:

SS190 - Armor piercing (AP)

All other ammo used is NOT ; such as SS192, SS196, SS195LF etc..etc. BUT SS190 IS restricted to Law
Enforcement since its AP.

www.atf.gov/firearms/firearmstech/fabriquen.htm

Now can we please put this behind us?



Thats the document I pulled the definition of AP from. Does the round meet either of the 2 criteria:

1. a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or


2. a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.


Doesnt seem to. I'd be interested to know if the ATF has ever made a ruling on SS190 specifically (That doc was about the SS196
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 3:27:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Melvinator2k0:
I am going to sell a picture of my ar15 and include all of the terms that anti gunners piss their pants when they hear. I am going to list it in the firearms parts category. If this gets banned, it will be an example to other arfcommers to stop using ebay until they get their shit together and take away these unnecesesary rules. Maybe ill make a thread and place bets on how fast it gets taken off.



Let me know how that works out.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 3:28:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mcantu:
2. a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.


If the core is steel and Al, the bulk being Al, it stands to reason this definition is met.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 3:50:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2005 3:51:49 PM EDT by mcantu]
Wow...I didnt know that the ATF doesnt consider 30-06 AP to be 'armor piercing.'

www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/legal/armor.htm


Legal > Armor Piercing Ammunition

Under Title 18, UNITED STATES CODE, CHAPTER 44 as amended by Public Law 103-322
The Violent Crime and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 (enacted September 13, 1994) 18 U.S.C. CHAPTER 44 § 921(a)(17)(B) the term 'armor piercing ammunition' means --

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

(C) The term 'armor piercing ammunition' does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Secretary finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Secretary finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.

§ 922(a) It shall be unlawful --

(7) for any person to manufacture or import armor piercing ammunition, except that this paragraph shall not apply to --

(A) the manufacture or importation of such ammunition for the use of the United States or any department or agency thereof or any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof;
(B) the manufacture of such ammunition for the purpose of exportation; and
(C) any manufacture or importation for the purpose of testing or experimentation authorized by the Secretary; and

(8) for any manufacturer or importer to sell or deliver armor piercing ammunition, except that this paragraph shall not apply to --

(A) the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of such ammunition for the use of the United States or any department or agency thereof or any State or any department agency, or political subdivision thereof;
(B) the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of such ammunition for the purpose of exportation;
(C) the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of such ammunition for the purposes of testing or experimenting authorized by the Secretary.

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver--

(5) any firearm or armor-piercing ammunition to any person unless the licensee notes in his records, required to be kept pursuant to section 923 of this chapter, the name, age, and place of residence of such person if the person is an individual, or the identity and principal and local places of business of such person if the person is a corporation or other business entity.
§ 923

(a) No person shall engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or importing or manufacturing ammunition until he has filed an application with and received a license to do so from the Secretary... Each applicant shall pay a fee for obtaining such a license to do so from the Secretary... Each applicant shall pay a fee for obtaining such a license, a separate fee being required for each place in which the applicant is to do business, as follows:

(1) If the applicant is a manufacturer-

(A) of destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices or armor piercing ammunition, a fee of $1,000 per year;

(2) If the applicant is an importer-

(A) of destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices or armor piercing ammunition, a fee of $1,000 per year.

(e) ...The Secretary may, after notice and opportunity for hearing, revoke the license of a dealer who willfully transfers armor piercing ammunition...

(k) Licensed importers and licensed manufactures shall mark all armor piecing projectiles and packages containing such projectiles for distribution in the manner prescribed by the Secretary by regulation. The Secretary shall furnish information to each dealer licensed under this chapter defining which projectiles are considered armor piercing ammunition as defined by section 921(a)(17)(B).

§ 929(a)

(1) Whoever, during and in relation to the commission of a crime of violence or drug trafficking crime (including a crime of violence or drug trafficking crime which provides for an enhanced punishment if committed by the use of a deadly or dangerous weapon or device) for which he may be prosecuted in a court of the United States, uses or carries a firearm and is in possession of armor piercing ammunition capable of being fired in that firearm, shall in addition to the punishment provided for the commission of such crime of violence or drug trafficking crime, be sentenced to a term of imprisonment for not less than five years.

(b) Not withstanding any other provision of law, the court shall not suspend the sentence of any person convicted of a violation of this section, nor place the person on probation, nor shall the terms of imprisonment run concurrently with any other terms of imprisonment, including that imposed for the crime in which the armor piercing ammunition was used or possessed. No person sentenced under this section shall be eligible for parole during the term of impressment imposed herein.

List of Armor Piercing Ammunition

bullet KTW AMMUNITION, all calibers. (Identified by a green coating on the projectile)

bullet ARCANE AMMUNITION, all calibers. (Identified by a pointed bronze or brass projectile)

bullet THV AMMUNITION, all calibers. (Identified by a brass or bronze projectile and having a headstamp containing the letters SFM and THV)

bullet CZECHOSLOVAKIAN manufactured 9mm Parabellum (Luger) ammunition having an iron or steel core. (Identified by a cupronickel jacket and headstamp containing a triangle, star and dates 49, 50, 51, or 52. The bullet is attracted to a magnet)

bullet GERMAN manufactured 9mm Parabellum (Luger) having an iron or steel bullet core. (Original packaging is marked Pisolenpatronen 08 m.E. May have black colored bullet. This bullet is attracted to a magnet)

bullet MSC AMMUNITION, Caliber .25. (Identified by a hollow point brass bullet. NOTE: MSC ammunition Caliber .25 identified by a hollow point copper bullet is not armor piercing)

bullet BLACK STEEL ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION, All Calibers, as produced by National Cartridge, Atlanta, Georgia.

bullet BLACK STEEL METAL PIERCING AMMUNITION, All Calibers, as produced by National Cartridge, Atlanta, Georgia.

bullet 7.62mm NATO AP (Identified by black coloring in the bullet tip. This ammunition is used by various NATO countries. The U.S. military designation is M61 AP)

bullet 7.62mm NATO SLAP (identified by projectile having a plastic sabot around a hard penetrator. The penetrator protrudes above the sabot and is similar in appearance to a Remington accelerator cartridge)

bullet PMC ULTRAMAG .38 Special caliber, constructed entirely of a brass type material, and plastic pusher disc located at the base of the projectile. NOTE: PMC ULTRAMAG 38J late production made of copper with lead alloy projectile is not armor piercing.

bullet OMNISHOCK, a .38 Special cartridge with a lead bullet containing a mild steel core with a flattened head resembling a wad cutter. (NOTE: OMNISHOCK cartridges having a bullet with an aluminum core are not armor piercing.)

bullet 7.62x39mm with steel core. (NOTE: these projectiles have a steel core. Projectiles having a lead core with steel jacket or steel case are not armor piercing)

NOTE: THE FOLLOWING CARTRIDGES HAVE BEEN REMOVED FROM THE DEFINITION OF ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION:

bullet 5.56MM (.223) SS109 and M855 Ammunition, Identified by a green coating on the projectile tip.

bullet U.S. .30-06 M2 AP, Identified by a black coating on the projectile tip.




I dont see the SS190 mentioned on this list
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