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Posted: 12/17/2005 5:35:26 PM EDT
Chronic alcoholism is very high on the suckage scale.

Just felt I needed to share that with everyone.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 5:39:51 PM EDT
you ruined my drinking weekend..
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 5:41:08 PM EDT
Agreed, my sister's boyfriend just finished drinking himself to death about a month ago. Not a good time. I hope whatever your story is someone finds the help they need before it is too late.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 5:42:25 PM EDT
I drink to forget right now i am working on my high school years. hinking.gif
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 5:43:26 PM EDT
Hows smy gre ammer, thew room is spinniung now
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 5:44:31 PM EDT
Ive got 2 patients admitted now.
One is going home today, failed rehab twice, just dried her out and got her blood pressure under control. The other just got sober today, CPS has her daughter, she got fired from her teaching job for dwi last week. We are trying to set up a rehab transfer for her, but her meddling family wants to choose her detox center.

Both are going to wind up in the county or state run detox facility(jail), its just a matter of time.
Neither admits they have a serious problem that they cannot overcome.

Lebrew

Link Posted: 12/17/2005 5:44:56 PM EDT
My grandfather drunk himself to death back in '93
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 5:46:37 PM EDT
Indeed it is, and the paths of wreckage left in it's wake are even worse.

one day at a time


DaddyDett
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 5:47:32 PM EDT
shite i ran our tof whiskey
good nioght you all
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 5:49:02 PM EDT
hmm, I cant understand the addiction to drinking massive amounts of alcohol. Im 19 and could care less about alcohol, havent been truely drunk in probably more than a year
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 5:50:23 PM EDT
Both grandfathers drank themselves to death.

Nice genetics eh?

At least nobody in the family since them has decided to head down that road.

Alcohol is a dangerous servant for some, as it eventually becomes the master.

Dram out
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 5:58:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By christ0ph:
hmm, I cant understand the addiction to drinking massive amounts of alcohol. Im 19 and could care less about alcohol, havent been truely drunk in probably more than a year



And thats why your NOT an Alcoholic. But some folks cant stop at one (like potato chips). Alcoholism is a very serious and devastating disease.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 6:00:36 PM EDT
Dammit I am drinking right now. Can you please wait until MORNING to post these kinds of downers?

(If you lost someone important to you, I'm very sorry.)
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 6:03:18 PM EDT
Alcohol.


Great friend, Horrible enemy.



you call it.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 6:05:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BenDover:
Chronic alcoholism is very high on the suckage scale.

Just felt I needed to share that with everyone.



Yea, but the blackouts are well worth it.

GM
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 6:17:33 PM EDT
Just found out 2 days ago that my ex girlfriends brother died this summer at 40. Alcohol and drugs. No liver or pancreas left. Totally destroyed. Not a fun way to go.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 6:42:47 PM EDT
Alcoholism is a disease

you rack the discpwine.

Link Posted: 12/17/2005 8:57:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2005 8:58:14 PM EDT by Recon_Rabbit]

Originally Posted By NYC-M4:

Originally Posted By christ0ph:
hmm, I cant understand the addiction to drinking massive amounts of alcohol. Im 19 and could care less about alcohol, havent been truely drunk in probably more than a year



And thats why your NOT an Alcoholic. But some folks cant stop at one (like potato chips). Alcoholism is a very serious and devastating disease.



It's not a disease. I don't give 2 fucks what the AA'ers try to tell you.
AA is for weak people that can't can't or won't accept personal responsibility for their actions.
What other disease requires you to seek out people and tell them you're sorry you hurt them?
What a load of horse shit. People drink themselves to death because it doesn't hurt as much as what's driving them to drink. People that have "slips" are fooling themselves. You either say enough is enough and quit, or you wallow in your own pity and make excuses to drink.

I quit a serious drinking problem10 years ago and never looked back. It's not hard.
JUST FUCKING DO IT!
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 8:58:56 PM EDT
Lush
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 8:59:48 PM EDT
I'll drink to that.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 9:00:22 PM EDT
I only turn to alcohol when confronted with excessive amount of stupidity in General Discussion.......but.......I'm getting better......really.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 9:06:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ProfessorEvil:
I'll drink to that.




I'll buy the next round
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 9:08:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Recon_Rabbit:

Originally Posted By NYC-M4:

Originally Posted By christ0ph:
hmm, I cant understand the addiction to drinking massive amounts of alcohol. Im 19 and could care less about alcohol, havent been truely drunk in probably more than a year



And thats why your NOT an Alcoholic. But some folks cant stop at one (like potato chips). Alcoholism is a very serious and devastating disease.



It's not a disease. I don't give 2 fucks what the AA'ers try to tell you.
AA is for weak people that can't can't or won't accept personal responsibility for their actions.
What other disease requires you to seek out people and tell them you're sorry you hurt them?
What a load of horse shit. People drink themselves to death because it doesn't hurt as much as what's driving them to drink. People that have "slips" are fooling themselves. You either say enough is enough and quit, or you wallow in your own pity and make excuses to drink.

I quit a serious drinking problem10 years ago and never looked back. It's not hard.
JUST FUCKING DO IT!



+1

It is not a disease. Cancer is a disease. Alcoholism....not even close.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 9:20:29 PM EDT
I have seen Alcoholism ruin two marriages. Both times, it was the women's problem. I think it is like smoking in that people get addicted to it and use it as crutch. In another words, it is a self-control issue. I was amazed at how alcohol can mess a person up faster than being a chain smoker. Basically, I watched someone nearly drink themselves to death in four months.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 9:28:08 PM EDT
Alcohol is a poison, and the liver tries to filter it out. Your liver can only do so much, and you will get hardening of the liver(cirrohsis), and after that, "thee end."

I only drink moderately, a can of beer or a glass of wine here and there. Nothing to the point of being drunk.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 9:28:22 PM EDT
My first wife was an alcoholic. It finally killed her. I still miss her.
She tried hard at times to get the best of it, but her brothers wouldn't let her.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 10:05:02 PM EDT
I am currently sitting through day #1 of DTs with a family member. The tremors are about 20 minutes apart and last for about 5 minutes at a stretch.

He's not hallucinating YET. He really wants to quit and is determined to get through it. He was given 3 months to live if he didn't quit.

1/2 gallon of 100 proof a day.

The next few days are going to be very long.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 10:05:14 PM EDT
there is a difference between alcoholism and alchohol abuse.

I"m nowhere near an expert on the topic, but i believe more recent research shows that alcoholism is a genetic predisposition. Certain people will become alcoholics beyond their control. Others wont.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 10:11:59 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 10:14:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By -brass-:

BenDover, IM Inbound! Detox/DTs are NOT something to be taken care of homestyle. DT Seizures can kill!


Very, very good advice.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 12:13:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By christ0ph:
hmm, I cant understand the addiction to drinking massive amounts of alcohol. Im 19 and could care less about alcohol, havent been truely drunk in probably more than a year



Because drug addiction (and alcohol is just a legal drug) is a genetic disorder. If you don't have the genese to become an addict you won't become one. If you do, then you could be hooked on the very first use of anything. What becomes the users "drug of choice" is the one that reacts the best with their brain chemistry, and they are forever "chasing the dragon," trying to get back that first incredible high.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 12:26:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Unicorn:

Originally Posted By christ0ph:
hmm, I cant understand the addiction to drinking massive amounts of alcohol. Im 19 and could care less about alcohol, havent been truely drunk in probably more than a year



Because drug addiction (and alcohol is just a legal drug) is a genetic disorder. If you don't have the genese to become an addict you won't become one. If you do, then you could be hooked on the very first use of anything. What becomes the users "drug of choice" is the one that reacts the best with their brain chemistry, and they are forever "chasing the dragon," trying to get back that first incredible high.



Not to mention that a lot of people really do have psychological problems, and personalities that make them prone to habitual behavior.

I used to drink in college a lot, but I've since stopped since I don't go to frat parties every weekend anymore. I just don't have a desire for it. I actually drink so little anymore I've thought about giving it up entirely, but then I wouldn't have anything to go with a good cigar.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 1:07:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Echo_Hotel:

Originally Posted By -brass-:

BenDover, IM Inbound! Detox/DTs are NOT something to be taken care of homestyle. DT Seizures can kill!


Very, very good advice.



Big +1.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 1:10:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By goodmedicine:

Originally Posted By BenDover:
Chronic alcoholism is very high on the suckage scale.

Just felt I needed to share that with everyone.



Yea, but the blackouts are well worth it.

GM



Hell no.. Waking up in a state of paranoia thinking WTF did I do last night (or this morning) sucks.. Then checking outbox and last dialed numbers on the cell is no picnic either.. then calling friends to piece the night back together or checking to see if you broke anything


not that I know this first hand...
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 1:12:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By christ0ph:
hmm, I cant understand the addiction to drinking massive amounts of alcohol. Im 19 and could care less about alcohol, havent been truely drunk in probably more than a year



Stay that way.. trust me
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 2:50:45 AM EDT
The first time I went to visit my grandfather was in a mental hospital. This was back in the 60’s. Imagine “One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest” without all the nice scenery. He was committed there due to his alcoholism.

My children and I, are aware of the genetic predisposition.

Don’t write off 12 step programs too soon. They will help you identify the real problem of which addiction is just a symptom. Just keep coming back.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 4:28:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2005 4:46:09 AM EDT by DaddyDett]

Originally Posted By BenDover:
I am currently sitting through day #1 of DTs with a family member. The tremors are about 20 minutes apart and last for about 5 minutes at a stretch.

He's not hallucinating YET. He really wants to quit and is determined to get through it. He was given 3 months to live if he didn't quit.

1/2 gallon of 100 proof a day.

The next few days are going to be very long.



This person needs to be hospitalized, PERIOD.
Withdrawal from alcohol can be fatal in severe cases if not properly managed.

To those whom believe alcoholism is not a disease, I sincerely hope your ignorance does not cost someone you love thier life.

Below is reference from the National Institutes of Health/National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism

DaddyDett

Sober by the grace of God since January 22, 1986





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Back to: NIAAA Home > Publications

National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism No. 30 PH 359 October 1995


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Diagnostic Criteria for Alcohol Abuse and Dependence

Diagnosis is the process of identifying and labeling specific conditions such as alcohol abuse or dependence (1). Diagnostic criteria for alcohol abuse and dependence reflect the consensus of researchers as to precisely which patterns of behavior or physiological characteristics constitute symptoms of these conditions (1). Diagnostic criteria allow clinicians to plan treatment and monitor treatment progress; make communication possible between clinicians and researchers; enable public health planners to ensure the availability of treatment facilities; help health care insurers to decide whether treatment will be reimbursed; and allow patients access to medical insurance coverage (1-3).

Diagnostic criteria for alcohol abuse and dependence have evolved over time. As new data become available, researchers revise the criteria to improve their reliability, validity, and precision (4,5). This Alcohol Alert traces the evolution of diagnostic criteria for alcohol abuse and dependence through the current standards of the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition (DSM-IV) (6). For comparison, the criteria found in the World Health Organization's International Classification of Diseases, Tenth Revision (ICD-10) also are reviewed briefly, although these are not often used in the United States (7).

Evolution of Diagnostic Criteria

Early Criteria

At least 39 diagnostic systems had been identified before 1940 (2). In 1941 Jlinek first published what is considered a groundbreaking theory of subtypes of what was, until 1980, termed alcoholism (2,8). Jellinek associated these subtypes with different degrees of physical, psychological, social, and occupational impairment (2,9).

Formulations of diagnostic criteria continued with the American Psychiatric Association's publication of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, First Edition (DSM-I), and Second Edition (DSM-II) (10,11). Alcoholism was categorized in both editions as a subset of personality disorders, homosexuality, and neuroses (2,12).

In response to perceived deficiencies in DSM-I and DSM-II, the Feighner criteria were developed in the 1970's to establish a research base for the diagnostic criteria of alcoholism (5,13). These criteria were the first to be based on research rather than on subjective judgment and clinical experience alone (5). Though designed for use in clinical practice, they were primarily developed to stimulate continued research for the development of even more useful diagnostic criteria (5). Several years later, Edwards and Gross focused solely on alcohol dependence (8). They considered essential elements of dependence to be a narrowing of the drinking repertoire, drink-seeking behavior, tolerance, withdrawal, drinking to relieve or avoid withdrawal symptoms, subjective awareness of the compulsion to drink, and a return to drinking after a period of abstinence (8)

The DSM Criteria

Researchers and clinicians in the United States usually rely on the DSM diagnostic criteria. The evolution of diagnostic criteria for behavioral disorders involving alcohol reached a turning point in 1980 with the publication of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Third Edition (14). In DSM-III, for the first time, the term "alcoholism" was dropped in favor of two distinct categories labeled "alcohol abuse" and "alcohol dependence" (1,2,12,15). In a further break from the past, DSM-III included alcohol abus e and dependence in the category "substance use disorders" rather than as subsets of personality disorders (1,2,12).

The DSM was revised again in 1987 (DSM-III-R) (16). In DSM-III-R, the category of dependence was expanded to include some criteria that in DSM-III were considered symptoms of abuse. For example, the DSM-III-R described dependence as including both physiological symptoms, such as tolerance and withdrawal, and behavioral symptoms, such as impaired control over drinking (17). In DSM-III-R, abuse became a residual category for diagnosing those who never met the criteria for dependence, but who drank despite alcohol-related physical, social, psychological, or occupational problems, or who drank in dangerous situations, such as in conjunction with driving (17). According to Babor, this conceptualization allowed the clinician to classify meaningful aspects of a patient's behavior even when that behavior was not clearly associated with dependence (18).

The DSM was revised again in 1994 and was published as the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition (DSM-IV) (6). The section on substance-related disorders was revised in a coordinated effort involving a working group of researchers and clinicians as well as a multitude of advisers representing the fields of psychiatry, psychology, and the addictions (2). The latest edition of the DSM represents the culmination of their years of reviewing the literature; analyzing data sets, such as those collected during the Epidemiologic Catchment Area Study; conducting field trials of two potential versions of DSM-IV; communicating the results of these processes; and reaching consensus on the criteria to be included in the new edition (2,19).

DSM-IV, like its predecessors, includes nonoverlapping criteria for dependence and abuse. However, in a departure from earlier editions, DSM-IV provides for the subtyping of dependence based on the presence or absence of tolerance and withdrawal (6). The criteria for abuse in DSM-IV were expanded to include drinking despite recurrent social, interpersonal, and legal problems as a result of alcohol use (2,4). In addition, DSM-IV highlights the fact that symptoms of certain disorders, such as anxiety or depression, may be related to an individual's use of alcohol or other drugs (2).

The ICD Criteria

While the American psychiatric community was formulating its editions of diagnostic criteria for mental disorders, the World Health Organization was developing diagnostic criteria for the purpose of compiling statistics on all causes of death and illness, including those related to alcohol abuse or dependence, worldwide (1,4,20). These criteria are published as the International Classification of Diseases (ICD). The first ICD classification of substance-related problems, published in 1967 in ICD-8 (21), classified what was then called alcoholism with personality disorders and neuroses, as had DSM-I and DSM-II. In ICD-8, alcoholism was a separate category that included episodic excessive drinking, habitual excessive drinking, and alcohol addiction that was characterized by the compulsion to drink and by withdrawal symptoms when drinking was stopped (1).

Although ICD-9 (22,23) included separate criteria for alcohol abuse and dependence, this revision defined them similarly in terms of signs and symptoms (1). According to Babor, an important assumption in ICD-9 was that alcohol use in the absence of dependence "merits a separate category by virtue of its detrimental effects on health" (1, p. 87).

The category of alcohol dependence was central to the current revision, ICD-10 (1,2,7). Alcohol dependence is defined in this classification in a way that is similar to the DSM. The diagnosis focuses on an interrelated cluster of psychological symptoms, such as craving; physiological signs, such as tolerance and withdrawal; and behavioral indicators , such as the use of alcohol to relieve withdrawal discomfort (1). However, in a departure from the DSM, rather than include the category "alcohol abuse," ICD-10 includes the concept of "harmful use." This category was created so that health problems related to alcohol and other drug use would not be underreported (1). Harmful use implies alcohol use that causes either physical or mental damage in the absence of dependence (1).

Moving Toward Agreement Between Diagnostic Criteria

The DSM diagnostic criteria for psychiatric disorders are the criteria primarily used in the United States. The ICD is an international diagnostic and classification system for all causes of death and disability, including psychiatric disorders (4). Earlier editions of these two major diagnostic criteria dealing with alcohol abuse and dependence were criticized for being too dissimilar (2). Therefore, the DSM-IV and the ICD-10 were revised in a coordinated effort among researchers worldwide to develop criteria that were as consistent with one another as possible (1,2).

Although some differences between the two major diagnostic criteria still exist, they have been revised by consensus as to how alcohol abuse and dependence are best characterized for clinical purposes (18). Clinicians, international health agencies, and researchers are now better able to categorize people with alcohol dependence, abuse, and harmful use to plan treatment, collect statistical data, and communicate research results (18).


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Diagnostic Criteria--A Commentary by
NIAAA Director Enoch Gordis, M.D.

The research community has long found standardized diagnostic criteria useful. Such criteria provide agreement as to the constellation of symptoms that indicate the alcohol dependence syndrome and allow researchers all over the world to communicate clearly as to what kinds of disorders are being studied.

Standardized diagnostic criteria are equally important and useful to clinicians. In the alcohol field, there have been many different ways by which clinical staff might arrive at a diagnosis--sometimes differing among staff within the same program. Although the use of standard diagnostic criteria may seem somewhat burdensome, it provides many benefits: more efficient assessment and placement, more consistency in diagnoses between and within programs, enhanced ability to measure the effectiveness of a program, and provision of services to people who most need them. As we move more and more into a managed health care arena, third-party payors are requiring more standardized reporting of illnesses; they want to know what conditions they are paying for and that these conditions are the same from program to program. The standardized diagnostic criteria presented in this Alert are based on the newest research, have been developed based on field trials and extensive reviews of the literature, and are continually revised to reflect new findings. Although clinical judgment will always play a role in diagnosing any illness, alcohol treatment programs that use standardized diagnostic criteria will be in the best position to select appropriate treatment and to justify their selection to third-party payors.


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References

(1) Babor, T.F. Substance-related problems in the context of international classificatory systems. In: Lader, M.; Edwards, G.; & Drummond, D.C., eds. The Nature of Alcohol and Drug Related Problems. New York: Oxford University Press, 1992. (2) Schuckit, M.A. DSM-IV: Was it worth all the fuss? Alcohol and Alcoholism. (Supp. 2):459-469, 1994. (3) Vaillant, G.E. The Natural History of Alcoholism Revisited. Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1995. (4) Rounsaville, B.J.; Bryant, K.; Babor, T.; Kranzler, H.; & Kadden, R. Cross system agreement for substance use disorders: DSM-III-R, DSM-IV and ICD-10. Addic tion 88(3):337-348, 1993. (5) Feighner, J.P.; Robins, E.; Guze, S.B.; Woodruff, R.A., Jr.; Winokur, G.; & Munoz, R. Diagnostic criteria for use in psychiatric research. Archives of General Psychiatry 26(1):57-63, 1972. (6) American Psychiatric Association. Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition. Washington, D.C.: the Association, 1994. (7) World Health Organization. The ICD-10 Classification of Mental and Behavioural Disorders: Clinical Descriptions and Diagnostic Guidelines, Tenth Revision. Geneva: World Health Organization, 1992. (8) Edwards, G., & Gross, M.M. Alcohol dependence: Provisional description of a clinical syndrome. British Medical Journal 1:1058-1061, 1976. (9) Jellinek, E.M. The Disease Concept of Alcoholism. New Brunswick: Hillhouse Press, 1960. (10) American Psychiatric Association. Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, First Edition. Washington, D.C.: the Association, 1952. (11) American Psychiatric Association. Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Second Edition. Washington, D.C.: the Association, 1968. (12) Nathan, P.E. Substance use disorders in the DSM-IV. Journal of Abnormal Psychology 100(3):356-361, 1991. (13) Keller, M., & Doria, J. On defining alcoholism. Alcohol Health & Research World 15(4):253-259, 1991. (14) American Psychiatric Association. Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Third Edition. Washington, D.C.: The Association, 1980. (15) Cottler, L.B.; Schuckit, M.A.; Helzer, J.E.; Crowley, T.; Woody, G.; Nathan, P.; & Hughes, J. The DSM-IV field trial for substance use disorders: Major results. Drug and Alcohol Dependence 38:59-69, 1995. (16) American Psychiatric Association. Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Third Edition, Revised. Washington, D.C.: the Association, 1987.
(17) Hasin, D.S.; Grant, B.; & Endicott, J. The natural history of alcohol abuse: Implications for definitions of alcohol use disorders. American Journal of Psychiatry 147(11):1537-1541, 1990. (18) Babor, T.F. The road to DSM-IV: Confessions of an erstwhile nosologist. Commentary No. 2. Drug and Alcohol Dependence 38:75-79, 1995. (19) Schuckit, M.A. Familial alcoholism. In: Widiger, T.; Frances, A.; Pincus, H.; First, M.; Ross, R.; & Davis, W., eds. DSM-IV Sourcebook. Vol. 1. Washington, D.C.: American Psychiatric Association, 1994. pp. 159-167. (20) Grant, B.F. DSM III-R and ICD 10 classifications of alcohol use disorders and associated disabilities: A structural analysis. International Review of Psychiatry 1:21-39, 1989. (21) World Health Organization. Manual of the International Statistical Classification of Diseases, Injuries, and Causes of Death, Eighth Revision. Geneva: World Health Organization, 1967. (22) World Health Organization. Manual of the International Statistical Classification of Diseases, Injuries, and Causes of Death, Ninth Revision. Vol. 1. Geneva: World Health Organization, 1977. (23) World Health Organization. Manual of the International Statistical Classification of Diseases, Injuries, and Causes of Death, Ninth Revision. Vol. 2. Geneva: World Health Organization, 1978.


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All material contained in the Alcohol Alert is in the public domain and may be used or reproduced without permission from NIAAA. Citation of the source is appreciated.


Copies of the Alcohol Alert are available free of charge from the Scientific Communications Branch, Office of Scientific Affairs, NIAAA, Willco Building, Suite 409, 6000 Executive Boulevard, Bethesda, MD 20892-7003. Telephone: 301-443-3860.


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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES

Public Health Ser vice * National Institutes of Health
Updated: October 2000



Link Posted: 12/18/2005 5:20:41 AM EDT
The American Medical Association began classifying alcoholism as a disease in the 70's. The people that say it's not a disease, and that it's a willpower issue have a very poor grasp of the physiological aspect of the disease. It is most definitely NOT a willpower issue. Those that would counsel others to avoid AA or some other treatment program to help them deal with their disease are misguided at best. I have met a great number of people that have achieved long term sobriety through the AA program after failing to get sober by any other means. It has worked very well for a huge number of people whos lives would have otherwise been lost to their disease.

I've met poeple that got sober on their own as well by gutting it out, and usually they are a perfect example of the saying, "you can take away the alcohol, but the 'ism' remains". There are a number of people that turn to programs like AA after years of self willed sobriety because their lives are still rotten. This is usually because they have not dealt with the number of other issues surrounding alcoholism.

I've never understood why someone would put down a program like AA that has saved so many lives and families. But, to comment on the original statement, yes, alcoholism is VERY high on the suckage scale. It's a horrible thing to happen to a person. Those that say not to get involved in a program like AA or some other treatment plan are not helping anyone but themselves. They are trying to justify their own behavior. The success of programs like AA speak for themselves.

Alcoholism is treatable, and can be managed. There are a great number of recovering alcoholics that are testament to this statement.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 5:37:00 AM EDT
I watched my ex-wife spiral downward for 5 years and she wouldn't participate any type of self help, you know, the whole denial thing. I never really believed that it was a disease till I saw it first hand. I eventually cut sling-load and hauled ass to a lawyer. Don't know where she is now, but I'm sure that she's drunk.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 5:46:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 2IDdoc:
The American Medical Association began classifying alcoholism as a disease in the 70's. The people that say it's not a disease, and that it's a willpower issue have a very poor grasp of the physiological aspect of the disease. It is most definitely NOT a willpower issue. Those that would counsel others to avoid AA or some other treatment program to help them deal with their disease are misguided at best. I have met a great number of people that have achieved long term sobriety through the AA program after failing to get sober by any other means. It has worked very well for a huge number of people whos lives would have otherwise been lost to their disease.

I've met poeple that got sober on their own as well by gutting it out, and usually they are a perfect example of the saying, "you can take away the alcohol, but the 'ism' remains". There are a number of people that turn to programs like AA after years of self willed sobriety because their lives are still rotten. This is usually because they have not dealt with the number of other issues surrounding alcoholism.

I've never understood why someone would put down a program like AA that has saved so many lives and families. But, to comment on the original statement, yes, alcoholism is VERY high on the suckage scale. It's a horrible thing to happen to a person. Those that say not to get involved in a program like AA or some other treatment plan are not helping anyone but themselves. They are trying to justify their own behavior. The success of programs like AA speak for themselves.

Alcoholism is treatable, and can be managed. There are a great number of recovering alcoholics that are testament to this statement.




+5
A very well written post.

I am admittedly very biased on this topic.
I have chosen the path of recovery through AA.
I know of many instances throughout my sobriety where I would have gotten drunk, had I not had the support and care of my fellows in the AA recovery community.

AA is not a program everyone can relate to, nor is it a perfect solution on it's own.
Commitment to sobriety, and growth are essential to the recovery process.
Addressing the personal issues that surround/initiated drinking behavior by whatever means available is key.

As I rapidly approach the 20 yr mark of my journey through sobriety,
I strive to remember the early days, the struggles to get through the seemingly insurmountable,
and to be grateful for those who's help God put there for me.
Some of those folks are dead. Some died sober, some didn't.
Some are alive, but have returned to alcohol's grasp.
Sadly, 2 of the people most dear to me in this world are among those.

Insidious, brutal, wicked, barely sums up alcoholism.

DaddyDett
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 5:57:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BenDover:
I am currently sitting through day #1 of DTs with a family member. The tremors are about 20 minutes apart and last for about 5 minutes at a stretch.

He's not hallucinating YET. He really wants to quit and is determined to get through it. He was given 3 months to live if he didn't quit.

1/2 gallon of 100 proof a day.

The next few days are going to be very long.


Sorry to hear that, We are currently abstaining from seeing my wife's grandmother. She had a heart attack, went through triple bypass, and now is in restraints due to dts.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 6:01:13 AM EDT
9:53 am... 16 hours since his last drink. He's actually sleeping pretty quietly. He's sweating and periodically has spiked a fever through the night. I had a paramedic friend come in last night and check vitals. No seizures, although he had a pretty strong sucking reflex for a while where he grabbed a wet washcloth to bite on and keep his tongue moist. I got him piled under a couple quilts, and he's actually got a really clear head -- even cracking a couple jokes now and then about how screwed up he is.

My friend is actually my father-in-law.

He has chosen sobriety so that he can be with his children after being estranged from them for many, many years. They want him in their life, despite all the stuff that has happened.

He is super motivated. I don't think I've ever seen such determination, which will be the thing that gets him through this.

He was only given a few months to live if he didn't quit, so there's not a lot at risk, but everything to gain here.

This isn't the first time I've done this. He's my 3rd project this year. One other one was alcohol and the second was pain pills. Both of them have graduated all 12 and by the grace of God, one's been sober for 11 months and the other for 9.

He's going ot AA this week because one of the other two is taking him. Daily if need be. I am a huge believer in the 12 step program.


For those who don't think alcoholism is a disease, but rather somehow or another a character flaw, I don't quite know what to say. Character issues can certainly contribute to the matter, but addiction is very much a disease.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 6:11:00 AM EDT

If I can be of any help, please call on me, publicly or by IM.

Be sure to get him properly hydrated, with more than just water.
His electrolyte levels are likely really a mess, and he needs that sorted ASAP.

Look for his enthusiasm to wane at the most trivial trials and tribulations, it's
normal and part of the games alcoholics run on themselves.

I wish him the best, and hope he comes through ok.

DaddyDett
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 6:15:03 AM EDT
I'm in the process of separating from my wife as a result of her alcoholism. Her family has the alchoholism gene. Her brother has been in and out of rehabs for the past year. I met my wife in college where it was accpetable to get fall down drunk each week. Well after 8 years together she is still living that lifestyle.

My wife's situation is a little different from the average drunks in that she doesn't drink every day. Maybe only once per week but when she starts, she can't stop and ends up either blacking out, passing out or running out of booze.

I've suffered from trying to deal with her disease so much that I'm ready to give up and move on. I want to start a family and there is no way that I want my wife to be the mother of my children. Thank God that we don't have any already....
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 12:53:36 PM EDT
We've hit 24 hours. Day #2.

He has been pretty good today overall. He slept most of the afternoon, which is good because I needed some too. I missed Christmas with my mom's side of the family today, but they all understand.

He got up and ate some ham, green beans and potatoes I had put in the crock pot. He is still having a hard time keeping food down.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 12:57:15 PM EDT
I quit seeing a very nice, attractive, smart and otherwise successful girl in Omaha because she and her entire family are all alcoholics. I drink, but I can't stand drunks.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 1:12:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BenDover:
I am currently sitting through day #1 of DTs with a family member. The tremors are about 20 minutes apart and last for about 5 minutes at a stretch.

He's not hallucinating YET. He really wants to quit and is determined to get through it. He was given 3 months to live if he didn't quit.

1/2 gallon of 100 proof a day.

The next few days are going to be very long.

If he's not a diabetic get some sugar into him. That will ease the DT's somewhat.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 1:15:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2005 1:30:57 PM EDT by PhatForrest]
Alcoholism killed my uncle 10 years ago. I give credit to anyone who quits and stays sober. I wish he would have given AA a try. Maybe it would have helped. He was the nicest guy when he was sober but an absolute mess on booze.

I've lost him and had a few other friendships broken by hard drug use, not my own of course. One strikes me hard. It's hard to hear that your friend of 4 years can't wear a short sleeve shirt becuase of all the razor scars that will never heal on her arms because she used to get high and cut herself and that she mixed up draino with Mountain Dew to try and off herself. And that was before trip number one to rehab.

She ended up coming back and I thought she was OK, but started using again and eventually ended up homeless in New Haven, living in a homeless shelter with her BF and his mom. Out of the blue. she called me one day from a payphone down there when I was at a NH Fire academy class and I met up with her during my lunchbreak the next day. She was a mess. Lost at least 50 pounds, told me about her miscarraige, about living on the street, and her and her BF still having problems with pills. His mom ended up dying of AIDS a few years later.

The last time I saw her was about a year and a half ago. She had ditched the BF, saved up doing little work, getting her own place and steady job. She ended up moving back to town and moving back in with her parents and getting a good job. Her parents, well her mom in particular, was a big part of her self-esteem problem that lead to all of it, but I think they patched things up through group therapy.

I haven't heard from her since then, and I do hope she's doing well. I'll never forget the summer of 2000.

Thanks for hearing my story guys. This is the first time I've poured it out for other people.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 1:15:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2005 1:16:09 PM EDT by fizassist]

Originally Posted By BenDover:
This isn't the first time I've done this. He's my 3rd project this year. One other one was alcohol and the second was pain pills. Both of them have graduated all 12 and by the grace of God, one's been sober for 11 months and the other for 9.



That's a heck of a thing to do for somebody, BD.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 1:29:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 2IDdoc:
The American Medical Association began classifying alcoholism as a disease in the 70's. The people that say it's not a disease, and that it's a willpower issue have a very poor grasp of the physiological aspect of the disease. It is most definitely NOT a willpower issue. Those that would counsel others to avoid AA or some other treatment program to help them deal with their disease are misguided at best. I have met a great number of people that have achieved long term sobriety through the AA program after failing to get sober by any other means. It has worked very well for a huge number of people whos lives would have otherwise been lost to their disease.

I've met poeple that got sober on their own as well by gutting it out, and usually they are a perfect example of the saying, "you can take away the alcohol, but the 'ism' remains". There are a number of people that turn to programs like AA after years of self willed sobriety because their lives are still rotten. This is usually because they have not dealt with the number of other issues surrounding alcoholism.

I've never understood why someone would put down a program like AA that has saved so many lives and families. But, to comment on the original statement, yes, alcoholism is VERY high on the suckage scale. It's a horrible thing to happen to a person. Those that say not to get involved in a program like AA or some other treatment plan are not helping anyone but themselves. They are trying to justify their own behavior. The success of programs like AA speak for themselves.

Alcoholism is treatable, and can be managed. There are a great number of recovering alcoholics that are testament to this statement.



There's absolutely nothing wrong with AA, if it works. That being said, it is not the only solution. And I believe it to be a psychological solution that does not address any physiological parts of the "disease". You can't cure a disease by talking about it, after all.

The only real answer to alcoholism is to detox and stop drinking. How someone gets there is frankly irrelevant, I think. If it's religion and psychology through AA, great. If it's just willpower, great. The important part is that if someone can't handle the sauce genetically/physiologically to get off of it and stay off of it.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 3:22:14 PM EDT
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