These threads are always illuminating in the working firearms vs. enthusiast firearms perception index.

I think if most people in this thread saw the weapons in big city PD, or some ghetto weapons, a farm rifle in a truck or the bottom of an Alaska native's boat or a place like Somalia they'd shit themselves. Yet those are the weapons doing much of the small arms work in the world at any given time.

I want the spread.

Maybe have your wife run the shotguns and you can hide behind her?

Flite control was designed originally to enhance performance of law enforcement shotguns already in inventory (they’re not even recommended for back bored or choked shotguns). Especially for agencies that weren’t transitioning to patrol carbines. It’s meant to perform several things not necessarily pertinent to public self defense.  One is to mitigate stray pellets that could cause collateral effects and litigation issues for agencies. Two it’s to concentrate pellets and increase effective range of the shotgun in relation to a carbine (the wads are based on long range turkey loads to begin with).  The last is the idea that by concentrating the pellets in a smaller impact zone you dump more energy into a target.  That last one to me is kinda hokey.  If you are hitting a target with nine to twelve .20-.30 caliber projectiles with enough velocity to penetrate at acceptable depth, you are already doing enough damage for self defense purposes also some spread may be desirable to a civilian self defense scenario as it increases coverage of vitals in a COM hit on what might be a hastily taken shot by a less than competent or agitated shooter.

The average home defender probably doesn’t need and may not even want the attributes of a “titewad” or “flite control” load.

Density of pattern adds to terminal effect.

I'm firing pellets (arguendo, here) because I want the bad guy to stop Right Fucking Now, and delivering 8 or 9 .33 pellets to his center of mass in a single trigger pull is a pretty well-proven "off switch" for aggressive action.
NB: 8 or 9 pellet depending on specific load selection rather than not hitting with the full pattern; I've seen some arguments that the Federal Flite Control 8-pellet #00 Buck is a bit more consistent at preventing a flyer pellet than the 9.

Kind of amazed these aren't more of a topic.  
Kind of amazed they aren't banned as DD.  It's a Pancor Jackhammer (that was banned as a DD), that you can reload quickly with 10 round magazines and keep going (unlike the Pancor).  

Cost <$300

After break-in, a very sweat gun to run with the right electronic dot sight

to throw some gas on the fire, while OP has a tuned up, red dot polymer wonder9 he also sometimes carries a 1911 in leather with no reloads....

+1.

Body armor is extremely common. More and more people are owning it. Will the people most likely to kick in your door trying to steal your guns be wearing it?

A friend of mine emptied an 870 into a guy at about 20’. 5 rounds of old Win Ranger 00 Buck (unplated). Broadside shots. The guy he shot lived until the ambulance arrived, loaded him up and left for the hospital. He loads his shotgun with slugs only now.

You can only fire 3 rounds in two seconds from an AR? do more NSRs

I understand slugs and get the idea, but I don't like the idea of turning a shotgun into a slow to fire 5 round rifle.

The thought of emptying the entire energy of an LCP or shield 1.0 into a bad guy at the same time with each pull of the trigger? that I can get behind.

Germans hated shotguns in WWI and tried to have them banned.

“The German Government protests against the use of shotguns by the American Army and calls attention to the fact that according to the law of war (Kriegsrecht) every prisoner [of war] found to have in his possession such guns or ammunition belonging thereto forfeits his life,” the Swiss legation in charge of representing German interests wrote in a wartime memorandum.


The German protest cited Article 23(e) of the Hague Conventions, which outlined the rules of warfare, claiming the trench shotgun caused “unnecessary suffering.”

The Japanese were not fond of them either, especially if you were hiding on top of a coconut tree.



European LE often carried SMG's with them and deemed shotguns "excessive"


Of all the ammo shortages we have had 12 gauge ammo could still be found at most places.
It's not my main gun but I will always have one.

Neither do I.

In the context of home defense, I think it is reasonable to consider your hearing.

I’ve never done it, but I would be concerned that touching off a couple rounds of 00 indoors would be disorienting or could result in hearing damage.

I like .300 blk because I can suppress it and still keep it in a short and light package.  I have two 12 gauge suppressors, but they are for fun and after using them, I wouldn’t use them for home defense.  They make the gun way too big and heavy.  I put one on a TS 12 and it was ok actually, but it was less than 100% reliable.

cat looking at newspaper meme

I should buy a shotgun.

we grew up with shotguns as extensions of our own bodies.

I don't know how many shotguns are in my house right now.
-hunting
-shotgun sports
-defense


I do know that most major rooms of the house has a 1100 Magnum or 11/87 or Winchester 1200/1300 rigged for defense use in it.

I have a bunch of regular old unplated 00 buck and the pattern is so big at 15yds it's basically useless for defensive shooting. Flite control extends the range another 10yds or so. I can get a 20yd shot in my house so I want the flight control advantage. At single room distance it doesn't matter either way because even the cheap stuff is going to be tight enough. Also, I'm more apt to use the gun to dispatch a four legged pest then anything else so the shot will be longer and I want the pattern tighter. A rifle or handgun would be more precise but a shotgun blast isn't going to scare the neighbors quite as much.

Stranger things have happened, but I'd put that one a couple of standard deviations out.  I've worked on several GSW victims (some actually were victims, i.e. guy shot in a robbery/some weren't) that really surprised me and the hospital staff.  One Iraqi took six rounds to the torso from a 240B and was alive and praying when they were wheeling him into surgery (no idea what happened to him).  I've also worked on a guy who took a .357 to the head and survived too; I heard he ended up a stooler and drooler in a state hospital though.  Strange things happen.  

I've posted it before, but the only fatal birdshot wounds I've seen were contact, suicide shots- and they were extremely effective.   One of the first calls I ran in EMS when I was a green EMT was a guy who sat on the foot of his bed and put the thing in his mouth.  I started to walk in and luckily my partner stopped me and pointed up.  What's usually in the center of the room over the foot of the bed?  Yep, the ceiling fan.  The ceiling looked like one of those old spin art pictures with goo dripping down.  Another would have died if we weren't pretty close and close to the trauma center- druggie or hitman busted into the dealer's house and put two rounds of birdshot in the guy sitting on the couch across the room (typical small section 8 apt, so maybe ten feet or so?).  The first round hit him in the upper left thigh and the second caught him in left arm and chest- both really nasty looking but not that deep and the guy was still able to jump up off the couch and run to his bedroom to grab his pistol while the guy started to reloaded his sawed off double barrel then decided to run away.  The thigh wound probably would have eventually bled out without direct pressure (we didn't really use TQs back then, just a pressure dressing and a pressure point worked) and he had some pellets that got into the vein that the trauma surgeon said they'd probably have to go after.  Also when I was fairly new I ran a call for a dude that took both barrels of birshot in the back/buttocks while running away.  We pull up and the guy is leaning over the trunk of the police car and, totally without thinking, I said in my best Forest Gump voice "I got shot in the buttocks"- even the patient was trying not to laugh despite being in pain.  

I keep an AR in the bedroom but I still wouldn't feel undergunned with a shotgun loaded with buckshot as a primary home defense weapon, and it has been at times.  Then again, my usual hiking/backpacking gun is a 642 so....

Sounds like it worked.  I hear similar stories all the time.  I don’t understand this concept.

The shotgun is a multipurpose weapon that will shoot different ammo according to your needs.  I would take it over anything other weapon when the shit hits the fan.  It shoots  bird shot , buckshot and slugs.  Change ammo per your needs.  As with all weapons they have strong points and weaker points.  The choice is yours.

Funny, my rattler is about the same size ~2 feet as my SBS 870. The benelli is 40” at least from what I’m seeing.

My shotgun options currently are comically short or absurdly long.
Stamp the long boi or put that $200 in a benelli fund?

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I don't own one.
Prefer my Glock 22 for HD.

Paul Harrell has a couple of videos on them if you like looking at his meat (targets).    He liked the Federal but not the Aguila.  Lucky Gunner didn't like them.  I have seen several videos of people shooting deer with them, including from Shockwaves, but they wouldn't be my first choice even though I have some just because.  The Federal 00 buckshot is stupid expensive though, like twice the price of the other shorties, and uses what looks like a split shot sinker that's supposed to break apart or deform or something.  You could certainly make some yourself though.

Shotgun only deer hunting in Dutchess County NY, plenty of dead deer. I have a Mossberg Maverick $200 12 gauge as my truck gun. If somone steals it I'm out next to nothing.

I have a Mossberg 590 at one end of the house and my Colt 6920 on the other. Motherfucker will be deaded by either if they walk into my house.

Shotgun deniers fall into two broad categories.    

Gamers who only ever touched one in a video game.

People who never bothered to train with one and are terrified.

Yes, a carbine is higher capacity and less recoil.  However, the threat is not a platoon sized element, nor is there going to be a extended firefight in your kitchen.   Also, ANY centerfire weapon fired inside a house, even with a suppressor, is going to damage your hearing unless you are firing subs, which i would like to point out, is less powerful than a round of 12 ga.

(The "you cannot shoot a shotgun fast" claim is just plain silly)

Oh, as for the body armor claim, anyone wearing the stuff and taking a center mass hit from a shotgun is not going to be a problem and might even end up in the ICU from impact trauma.

Disclaimer.  I was a shotgun trainer for years.  I used to shoot the AR qual course with slugs just for fun and lunch bets.  

Depends on your home layout. Open concept with major square footage...maybe. Older home with small rooms and a lot of doorways...no way.

Pistol with WML will allow you to move, cover, and shoot from awkward positions.

It takes more practice to effectively use a shotgun, espicially a pump, under pressure, than a box magazine fed PCC or rifle.  

Shotgun ammo isn't necessarilly great at long term storage reliability.  Plastic hulls deform in both tubes and box (Saiga) mags under spring pressure.  Its why I gave up on a saiga as my backdoor shotgun.

A shotgun IS more useful for a lot of rural situations, I've killed a lot more raccoons, woodchucks, etc with a shotgun than a rifle.

I don't care if someone wants to keep a shotgun around for HD, but at least don't argue that its some sort of magic against body armor or easier for untrained shooters.  

If it wasn't for NFA '34, the reccomended HD weapon for the infrequent shooter would likely be a suppressed PDW with a burst option.  

I have exactly one shotgun left, a Mossberg 930 Field set up for turkey. Never use it. If I set it up for HoDef, it would be 18.5” smooth bore and use rifled slugs with an RDS. Follow-up shot is going to suck with either, along with reload but at least I could stretch a shot out at yard distances (my yard, that is).

ETA: My wires got crossed up

870 fan.

Over the years ended up with a couple of early 70's Wingmasters.

One was an ex Florida Marine Patrol gun. Unfortunately not one of the nickel plated Marine Magnums. It already had the Flextab modification and the metal had been refinished. I refinished the wood, added a few things like a better shell follower and a large dome headed safety.

One wears a decades old Choate skeletonized plastic stock in the rear and a TL Racker light forearm up front. Factory slug barrel. Mag extension. Spectre butt cuff holds 6. Never liked extra rounds on the side of the receiver, just a personal preference. Shell follower, dome safety.

Not an end all or SHTF weapon, but I feel confident it'll handle any current homestead varmints.

For me it was an Ithaca 37. Having hunted everything possible and being able to run it in my sleep makes it a part of my body.
I always laugh at these threads. It definitely separates the retards from the actual gun people. Please regale me more about buck shot is only good for 15 yards.

I've been toying with the idea of a youth/female sized 20 gauge, semi-auto gas gun with a red dot and the shortest legal barrel I can put on it.

Easy to maneuver in a dark house, soft(er) shooting, and very effective at HD distances. I had a spare 12 gauge barrel cut down, and intended to have it threaded until I took it to the range and ran both buck and slugs through it. At 10 yards every pellet was tightly contained in the silhouette, and it didn't affect the slug performance at all.

I really like the idea of a shotgun my wife can shoot with confidence. She's never going to run a pump well. Hmmm...

being a big shotgun for HD guy is a surefire way to gain acceptance with the fudd and boomer crowds if you've had trouble making in roads there

I know a guy who bought one of the Turkish Benelli M4 clones for like $500.

It is awesome. I've really thought hard about doing the same, but have no real need for one. I already have other shotguns.

(Roving Antifa mobs breaking into gated community fantasies aside) I'm not worried about a platoon sized element, but 3-5 determined assailants isn't outside the realm of possibility, as unlikely as it may be.

What is an "extended firefight"? Many civilian gunfights continue until one side is incapacitated or runs out of ammo.


Given your experience and expertise, it's possible that you are better off with a shotgun, but that isn't true for the average person.

I've killed a lot more raccoons, woodchucks, etc, with 22mag than anything else.

With me, it is a tie.  .22LR and .38 Super.

No. Here they're more likely to just have a meth pipe in their pocket than anything else. If they had body armor it'd be sold to the pawn shop immediately.

I’ve dumped 5 12 gauge slugs into a 225 pound deer and they were still alive. Stuff happens when when real life shooting happens. I’ve also had a DRT on bigger deer with a single 20GA slug. I once used 3 12ga magnum slugs to put down a massive Piedmontese bull that decided it needed to kill everyone in sight.
You stated the guy was still alive, but I really doubt he was up for more fight.
I’m always curious about how much talk there is about buckshot in the house. While it’s certainly formidable a good load of high brass #5s is a cloud of lead no one is walking away from. For those who are new to shotguns there is a misconception that 20ga is inferior to 12. They have the same amount of power it’s just that the payload is less in a 20. That’s what makes the recoil less but you’re not losing power for what is delivered.

On the list of people who might kick in my door trying to take my guns, tweekers are pretty close to the bottom

Slug or buckshot? GD answer: Get both.  My A-5 is loaded with Winchester PDX Defender

I still favor the shotgun myself. It has limitations for sure but it’s still an effective tool. Have a 590SBS for work but like my 1100. Want to pick up a Beretta 1301LTT Attached File

I keep one in the HD mix.  Its usually set up for dealing with 4 legged problems than two legged variety.  It will still handle them though.  We've had issues with aggressive dogs at our place, that if we had not been there probably would have resulted in our kids getting attacked.  Our old place had bears breaking into cars and digging through dumpsters in the night.  

Right now its full of 00 buck with a sidesaddle with a couple rounds of buck and some slugs just in case.  It used to be full of slugs.  Hell its been used with birdshot to eliminate all manner of pests doing everything from destroying wiring, our garden, our waterfowl, etc.  An AR is superior in human v human combat, but shotguns are incredibly versatile.  I've even been out of town deer hunting, using my shotgun as a camp gun when my deer rifle broke.  I finished the hunt by during the day disassembling the weapon light to make sure I was legal, and filling the freezer with it.  An AR wouldnt be a legal platform at all for me to use as back up here.

...

Pelvic girdle.

I appreciate that you took the time to take these photos on a special graph-paper rug for easy comparison.