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Posted: 6/4/2023 3:46:52 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I appreciate that you took the time to take these photos on a special graph-paper rug for easy comparison. That’s the rug that came in my closet/gun room. I hate it but not enough to pay to replace it. |
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Posted: 6/4/2023 4:08:22 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: On the list of people who might kick in my door trying to take my guns, tweekers are pretty close to the bottom Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Body armor is extremely common. More and more people are owning it. Will the people most likely to kick in your door trying to steal your guns be wearing it? No. Here they're more likely to just have a meth pipe in their pocket than anything else. If they had body armor it'd be sold to the pawn shop immediately. On the list of people who might kick in my door trying to take my guns, tweekers are pretty close to the bottom |
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Posted: 6/4/2023 4:18:43 PM EDT
[#3]
If a shotgun is your only option for HD you’re screwed. You’re better served putting it in your mouth and pulling the trigger if someone breaks in cause you’re already dead anyways.
But since they suck so bad it’ll probably chip a few teeth at best when you do shoot yourself with it so you’ll still be at the mercy of the plate wearing delta force squad who broke in. |
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Posted: 6/4/2023 4:23:10 PM EDT
[#4]
GET BOTH!
Get them in one package - 458 SOCOM. 1 ounce projectile, semiauto operation, detachable box magazine, straight back recoil, rifled-barrel accuracy, compact package, slings and sights galore,... Your existing 30 round AR mags hold ten rounds of 458 SOCOM. What's not to like? |
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Posted: 6/4/2023 4:25:22 PM EDT
[#5]
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Posted: 6/4/2023 4:26:49 PM EDT
[#6]
I need a way to launch the dragons breath. So I keep a couple around 590 and 1301T.
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Posted: 6/4/2023 4:28:50 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If a shotgun is your only option for HD you’re screwed. You’re better served putting it in your mouth and pulling the trigger if someone breaks in cause you’re already dead anyways. But since they suck so bad it’ll probably chip a few teeth at best when you do shoot yourself with it so you’ll still be at the mercy of the plate wearing delta force squad who broke in. Yup, just give up. Your better off with a sharp stick. |
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Posted: 6/4/2023 4:48:52 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: At15 feet with my Browning Auto 5, I'm point shooting not using sights. If I can (and have many times) take 2 wild Bob White quail on a covy raise at 15 feet without using the sights (not enough time for that) I can hit a human at 15 feet without using the sights. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I don’t care if you suck at math, you suck at thinking you don’t need sights. Effing gun store bullshit right there. At15 feet with my Browning Auto 5, I'm point shooting not using sights. If I can (and have many times) take 2 wild Bob White quail on a covy raise at 15 feet without using the sights (not enough time for that) I can hit a human at 15 feet without using the sights. You were using the “sights”. You kept your head down and referenced the bead, even if it was hyper quick and subliminal. You practiced well and it paid off. |
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Posted: 6/4/2023 5:15:02 PM EDT
[#9]
I love shotguns. Have a bunch, carried them as the primary long gun at work until I got us AR’s, and I always had one for breaching til I retired. Super useful. Hunt with them a lot as well.
On the other hand, I know of several incidents, including one involving a buddy, and one involving my dad, where 12 ga. Buck came up short at medium distances. (Especially if using low recoil buckshot). At one scene, around 40 yds, low recoil OOB didn’t even penetrate thin aluminum trailer sides- none of the pellets did. Nobody generally thinks of sheet metal aluminum as armor, yet it could be… And if you stupidly are using birdshot? I have seen that personally do jack shit at relatively close distances. So for close in work, full power Federal flight control, nothing better. But a close situation can go further distance real fast. I came close to using a shotgun once on someone at around 50 yds, and I had zero faith that I would get fast effective hits with the buckshot I had loaded up. I had absolutely no time to swap ammo to slugs either in that situation. Thankfully I did not need to find out that night. I really was wishing I had a rifle (and aware that our first rifle training and qual was in only a week). Just something to think about. If someone is shooting at you from across the road 70 yards away with an AK, because you just dropped their burglary buddy, you are gonna want something with more reach. |
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Posted: 6/4/2023 5:26:08 PM EDT
[#10]
M4 SBS master race checking in
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Posted: 6/4/2023 5:36:50 PM EDT
[#11]
I have a 1014.
It sits in the safe. This is my HD and walking around land gun.  Hornady 75 interlock SBR ammo is awesome and super quiet out if it. |
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Posted: 6/4/2023 5:36:55 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don’t care if you suck at math, you suck at thinking you don’t need sights. Effing gun store bullshit right there. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I read somewhere, I think it was an FBI paper, that the average home intrusion shooting engagement distance was about 15 feet. Someone correct me if I am wrong. Anyways, at 15 feet you don't even need sights on a rifle or hand gun(or shot gun for that matter). In the time it takes someone to put 3 bullets into someone at 15 feet with sights or no sights, a shotgunner with 00 buck could have 27 buck shots in the same general area. (9x3=27) Lets say you have an AR in any bullet , you pick it doesn't matter the round, and you do 3 rounds in 2 seconds. Now do 12 gauge 00 buckshot. # rounds in 2 seconds is 27 lead buck shots. 3 vs 27 the shotgun clearly wins. Going to be close to the same group size as the AR being the distance is 15 feet. Point of interest: Id bet the actual weight of the projectiles minus the brass is in favor of shotgun if you compare a semi auto shotgun to an AR seeing which one has more projectile mass in general terms. 00buck weight : 58 grains each. 9 buck shots per round. 5 round mag. 9x5=45. 58x45= 2610 grains. 5.56 weight 62 grains. 62x30 is 1860 grains. Buck wins. now lets do ftlb of energy. 12ga 00 buck= 3312ftlbe 3312x5=16560ftlbe 5.56 1323ftlbe 1323x30=39690ftlbe 5.56 CLEARLY wins. I suck at math so if I am wrong please correct me. Maybe throw an insult in too if you are annoyed by my reply. But it's just something to think about. They both have advantages and disadvantages. Use what works for YOU is the bottom line. I don’t care if you suck at math, you suck at thinking you don’t need sights. Effing gun store bullshit right there. He said at 5 yards you don’t need sights. Which is absolutely true for anyone who knows how to shoot their firearm, for a typical defensive situation. 5 yards is not where you want to be taking the time to line up your sights, it is where lots of practice comes into play, because fast hits win. Sights are for further back, and learning how to shoot the gun. However- It isn’t true if you are doing hostage rescue, and/or you have innocents mixed in amongst the bad guys, and you need to make a precision head shot. But that isn’t what is being discussed here. |
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Posted: 6/4/2023 5:49:57 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: (Roving Antifa mobs breaking into gated community fantasies aside) I'm not worried about a platoon sized element, but 3-5 determined assailants isn't outside the realm of possibility, as unlikely as it may be. What is an "extended firefight"? Many civilian gunfights continue until one side is incapacitated or runs out of ammo. Given your experience and expertise, it's possible that you are better off with a shotgun, but that isn't true for the average person. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: However, the threat is not a platoon sized element, nor is there going to be a extended firefight in your kitchen. (Roving Antifa mobs breaking into gated community fantasies aside) I'm not worried about a platoon sized element, but 3-5 determined assailants isn't outside the realm of possibility, as unlikely as it may be. What is an "extended firefight"? Many civilian gunfights continue until one side is incapacitated or runs out of ammo. Disclaimer. I was a shotgun trainer for years. I used to shoot the AR qual course with slugs just for fun and lunch bets.  Given your experience and expertise, it's possible that you are better off with a shotgun, but that isn't true for the average person. Learning to use a shotgun well is not that hard. I am an instructor also, and more of a shotgun person than most instructors I worked with. If you took a 4-8 hour class, and then actually used the shotgun a lot, handled it, carried it, and periodically do some refresher training, you could be better than 95% of shotgun owners. Hell when I taught it at the academy, shotgun was only a half day class. Shotguns are not hard. Neither are rifles or handguns. Just takes work and training. |
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Posted: 6/4/2023 6:02:55 PM EDT
[#14]
In 99.99% of home/property defense situations any center fire gun, rifle, pistol or shotgun is just fine.
The argument of what is optimum is mostly philosophical and hypothetical barring some very specific layout and locations. I’d be fine with any of the three, practice and training are the real difference makers. Way more so than the gun. My choice in full size 9mm with a light is because of the layout of my house and the need to be able to use a gun one handed is what it came down too. I’ve had multiple instances using that set up to put down animals attacking my dogs. That was actually before I had a weapon light using a pistol and a flashlight. I think a lot of arguments on this subject blend home defense and SHTF categories. |
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Posted: 6/4/2023 7:04:14 PM EDT
[#15]
 Hobo With a Shotgun (Fake Trailer) |
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Posted: 6/4/2023 7:15:10 PM EDT
[#16]
I might grab my Vepr 12 if someone broke in.
Decent capacity and runs like a top. |
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Posted: 6/4/2023 7:58:42 PM EDT
[#17]
I have killed aa bunch of animals with a shotgun, including a couple pickup truck loads of deer. 12 gauge buckshot is a 30 yard load, IMHO.
Slugs are devastating. I live rural, and I do have a couple 12 gauge guns rigged for HD. Also 2 AR's, and my AR with light is what I grab when my cameras or sensor lights go off at 0200. My theory is a shotgun is for indoors, a rifle is for everything else. |
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Posted: 6/4/2023 8:21:37 PM EDT
[#18]
What some of you don’t seem understand is we’re talking expendable handheld portable clamors here.
Some one kicks in your front door and they and accompanying friends get 7rds of slam fired #4 buck. Then it’s dropped like a hot potato and up comes the ar...do you even operate? You do have a sling, right? Right?! |
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Posted: 6/4/2023 8:27:41 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What some of you don’t seem understand is we’re talking expendable handheld portable clamors here. Some one kicks in your front door and they and accompanying friends get 7rds of slam fired #4 buck. Then it’s dropped like a hot potato and up comes the ar...do you even operate? You do have a sling, right? Right?! But I could just start with an AR. |
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Posted: 6/4/2023 8:36:38 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But I could just start with an AR. No canon? Are you le poors? |
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Posted: 6/4/2023 8:42:54 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No canon? Are you le poors? Canons are for poor people. 
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Posted: 6/4/2023 8:45:53 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What some of you don’t seem understand is we’re talking expendable handheld portable clamors here. Some one kicks in your front door and they and accompanying friends get 7rds of slam fired #4 buck. Then it’s dropped like a hot potato and up comes the ar...do you even operate? You do have a sling, right? Right?! I like your style |
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Posted: 6/4/2023 8:50:11 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryWhy Ed, what an ugly thing to say... does this mean we're not friends anymore? |
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Posted: 6/4/2023 8:51:03 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I still favor the shotgun myself. It has limitations for sure but it’s still an effective tool. Have a 590SBS for work but like my 1100. Want to pick up a Beretta 1301LTT https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/490499/IMG_1315_jpeg-2840079.JPG Beautiful! |
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Posted: 6/4/2023 8:51:46 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why Ed, what an ugly thing to say... does this mean we're not friends anymore? Isnt that a daisy? |
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Posted: 6/4/2023 8:52:52 PM EDT
[#26]
If you have an M4, get the Midwest Industries rail.
 Attached File |
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Posted: 6/4/2023 8:57:48 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What some of you don’t seem understand is we’re talking expendable handheld portable clamors here. Some one kicks in your front door and they and accompanying friends get 7rds of slam fired #4 buck. Then it’s dropped like a hot potato and up comes the ar...do you even operate? You do have a sling, right? Right?! Sling will get you killed when the bad guy chokes you with it. |
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Posted: 6/4/2023 9:03:06 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Isnt that a daisy? You and lumpy have been a regular soul snatchers around here’s for a long time. You’ve seemed more...dejected lately? Things ok? |
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Posted: 6/4/2023 9:12:09 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You and lumpy have been a regular soul snatchers around here’s for a long time. You’ve seemed more...dejected lately? Things ok? Not me, Im in my prime . |
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Posted: 6/4/2023 9:23:33 PM EDT
[#30]
Mmmm, hate per trigger pull:
 |
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Posted: 6/4/2023 10:31:37 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Beautiful! Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I still favor the shotgun myself. It has limitations for sure but it’s still an effective tool. Have a 590SBS for work but like my 1100. Want to pick up a Beretta 1301LTT https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/490499/IMG_1315_jpeg-2840079.JPG Beautiful! Thank you |
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Posted: 6/4/2023 11:03:04 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not me, Im in my prime . You're no daisy. |
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Posted: 6/4/2023 11:23:47 PM EDT
[#33]
I taught a shotgun class today. Two teen boys of friends of mine. At the end of the class I demonstrated that with Federal flight control at 10 yards you could shoot a hostage taker in the head and not hurt the hostage. After the demo, they both did it.
A 1301T with FFC 00 buck is the most devastating home defense weapon a common person can have. For those of you who think it's slow, I ran a 6 plate rack in 2.36 from the low ready. Tactical Shotgun shooters here know what's up. If you want training, I suggest Tim Chandler, Ashton Ray, Erick Gelhaus, Rob and Matt Haught. Any of them can show you the Gospel of the gauge.  Attached File |
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Posted: 6/4/2023 11:32:48 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sling will get you killed when the bad guy chokes you with it. Not having a sling will get you killed when they remove the gun from your possession and kill you with it. It’s about retention. |
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Posted: 6/4/2023 11:38:33 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I love shotguns. Have a bunch, carried them as the primary long gun at work until I got us AR’s, and I always had one for breaching til I retired. Super useful. Hunt with them a lot as well. On the other hand, I know of several incidents, including one involving a buddy, and one involving my dad, where 12 ga. Buck came up short at medium distances. (Especially if using low recoil buckshot). At one scene, around 40 yds, low recoil OOB didn’t even penetrate thin aluminum trailer sides- none of the pellets did. Nobody generally thinks of sheet metal aluminum as armor, yet it could be… And if you stupidly are using birdshot? I have seen that personally do jack shit at relatively close distances. So for close in work, full power Federal flight control, nothing better. But a close situation can go further distance real fast. I came close to using a shotgun once on someone at around 50 yds, and I had zero faith that I would get fast effective hits with the buckshot I had loaded up. I had absolutely no time to swap ammo to slugs either in that situation. Thankfully I did not need to find out that night. I really was wishing I had a rifle (and aware that our first rifle training and qual was in only a week). Just something to think about. If someone is shooting at you from across the road 70 yards away with an AK, because you just dropped their burglary buddy, you are gonna want something with more reach. 00 full power flight control buckshot will exit a 200lbs deer at 50 yards if it doesn't hit bone. The pellets that did hit bone broke it but were caught by the offside skin. 50-75 yards I'll think about a slug if I have time. Legacy buckshot sucks. |
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Posted: 6/4/2023 11:40:40 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not having a sling will get you killed when they remove the gun from your possession and kill you with it. It’s about retention. The bad guy choking you with your sling is old home defense advice you'd see posted here years ago. |
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Posted: 6/4/2023 11:44:05 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It takes more practice to effectively use a shotgun, espicially a pump, under pressure, than a box magazine fed PCC or rifle. Shotgun ammo isn't necessarilly great at long term storage reliability. Plastic hulls deform in both tubes and box (Saiga) mags under spring pressure. Its why I gave up on a saiga as my backdoor shotgun. A shotgun IS more useful for a lot of rural situations, I've killed a lot more raccoons, woodchucks, etc with a shotgun than a rifle. I don't care if someone wants to keep a shotgun around for HD, but at least don't argue that its some sort of magic against body armor or easier for untrained shooters. If it wasn't for NFA '34, the reccomended HD weapon for the infrequent shooter would likely be a suppressed PDW with a burst option. |
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Posted: 6/5/2023 12:52:32 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: S&B Buckshot doesn't deform. And I use a Mossberg, because it works with you. S&B ammo is mediocre at best. I have a bunch of it, but it doesn't hold a candle to Federal Flight Control. |
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Posted: 6/5/2023 2:10:23 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It takes more practice to effectively use a shotgun, espicially a pump, under pressure, than a box magazine fed PCC or rifle. Shotgun ammo isn't necessarilly great at long term storage reliability. Plastic hulls deform in both tubes and box (Saiga) mags under spring pressure. Its why I gave up on a saiga as my backdoor shotgun. A shotgun IS more useful for a lot of rural situations, I've killed a lot more raccoons, woodchucks, etc with a shotgun than a rifle. I don't care if someone wants to keep a shotgun around for HD, but at least don't argue that its some sort of magic against body armor or easier for untrained shooters. If it wasn't for NFA '34, the reccomended HD weapon for the infrequent shooter would likely be a suppressed PDW with a burst option. Is there any guidance on the shotshell deformation in magazines? I've been testing it on 10 round box magazines, and haven't encountered it. But my longest storage run so far has been maybe 4 months. Are we talking years? Or is this a brand specific topic? https://rumble.com/v27olm4-tokarev-12-ga.-12-rounds-with-mandatory-reload.html |
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Posted: 6/5/2023 4:56:32 AM EDT
[#40]
Stick with the Rattler.
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Posted: 6/5/2023 5:34:31 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The bad guy choking you with your sling is old home defense advice you'd see posted here years ago. what if that's my fetish? 
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Posted: 6/5/2023 5:54:04 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why Ed, what an ugly thing to say... does this mean we're not friends anymore? Quote HistoryQuoted: Why Ed, what an ugly thing to say... does this mean we're not friends anymore? 
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Posted: 6/5/2023 6:16:59 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: S&B ammo is mediocre at best. I have a bunch of it, but it doesn't hold a candle to Federal Flight Control. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: S&B Buckshot doesn't deform. And I use a Mossberg, because it works with you. S&B ammo is mediocre at best. I have a bunch of it, but it doesn't hold a candle to Federal Flight Control. I have a bunch of S&B and I think it's worthless past 10-12yds because it opens up so much. |
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Posted: 6/5/2023 6:20:59 AM EDT
[#44]
I saw this thread when it popped up the other day and it sparked my interest.
In years past, I owned a bunch of shotguns, lived in S. Florida, and worked at a large trap/skeet and sporting clays facility. Owned one AR, Colt HBAR with a spare 16” upper. I kept a satin nickel Winchester 1300 as my home defense shotgun, later adding a Stoeger coach gun. I’ve live in Appalachia for the last seventeen years and long ago went with AR’s as my go to for home/farm defense. I opened my safe to take stock of my shotguns, as honestly it’s been about five years since I’ve even fired one. My Beretta was sold to help pay bills long ago, as was the Stoeger. Gave the Winchester to son #1, who now lives in Ohio. I have a Interstate clone of a 1897 Trench gun because, well, Trench Gun. An original E-series Winchester 97, cut down to 18.5”, threaded for choke tubes and action job by Coyote Cap from when I was shooting CAS, and a CZ hammer coach gun from the same time period. Remington engraved 1100 Upland Special, about the only shotgun I’ve used in the last decade, once busting clays at a friends BBQ, and a couple years back when I got us a Turkey one fall. I have a pretty suzeanle stash of shells, from Fed Gold Match 7-1/2, various cases of buckshot, to rifled slugs. I kept the CZ double with one round of 12-pellet 00 and one of #4 birdshot behind the mudroom door for when we kept chickens in the small coop behind the house, but now they’re back 1/2 mile behind the barn with the pigs. I keep a cheap PSA middy carbine on my 4-wheeler for any livestock/choring needs, I think I’ve got maybe $400 in it and it’s cheaper than any of the shotguns. I took a standard 25-round 12ga cardboard box and filled it with 5.56 rounds, and could easily fit three magazine’s worth in the same space as 25 12ga shells. I’d rather have 90 rounds of 5.56 in a optics equipped carbine than 20-25 rounds of 12 ga. |
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Posted: 6/5/2023 6:38:53 AM EDT
[#45]
If you never fired 00 buck from a shotgun then you need to. There is not much spread at 25 yards not to mention at 7 yards. 9 pellets every time you pull the trigger. Not saying it's the greatest home defense but the bird claim is stupid even for gd.
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Posted: 6/5/2023 6:45:14 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you never fired 00 buck from a shotgun then you need to. There is not much spread at 25 yards not to mention at 7 yards. 9 pellets every time you pull the trigger. Not saying it's the greatest home defense but the bird claim is stupid even for gd. Yes, there is spread at roughly 1"/1' at 7 yards with "cheap" buckshot. I say this as someone who stages and depends on shotguns to defend his home, which is roughly 10 miles north of the most violent city in the US. |
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Posted: 6/5/2023 7:26:22 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Shotgun deniers fall into two broad categories. Gamers who only ever touched one in a video game. People who never bothered to train with one and are terrified. Yes, a carbine is higher capacity and less recoil. However, the threat is not a platoon sized element, nor is there going to be a extended firefight in your kitchen. Also, ANY centerfire weapon fired inside a house, even with a suppressor, is going to damage your hearing unless you are firing subs, which i would like to point out, is less powerful than a round of 12 ga. (The "you cannot shoot a shotgun fast" claim is just plain silly) Oh, as for the body armor claim, anyone wearing the stuff and taking a center mass hit from a shotgun is not going to be a problem and might even end up in the ICU from impact trauma. Disclaimer. I was a shotgun trainer for years. I used to shoot the AR qual course with slugs just for fun and lunch bets. Quote HistoryQuoted: Shotgun deniers fall into two broad categories. Gamers who only ever touched one in a video game. People who never bothered to train with one and are terrified. Yes, a carbine is higher capacity and less recoil. However, the threat is not a platoon sized element, nor is there going to be a extended firefight in your kitchen. Also, ANY centerfire weapon fired inside a house, even with a suppressor, is going to damage your hearing unless you are firing subs, which i would like to point out, is less powerful than a round of 12 ga. (The "you cannot shoot a shotgun fast" claim is just plain silly) Oh, as for the body armor claim, anyone wearing the stuff and taking a center mass hit from a shotgun is not going to be a problem and might even end up in the ICU from impact trauma. Disclaimer. I was a shotgun trainer for years. I used to shoot the AR qual course with slugs just for fun and lunch bets. I've always view shotguns as the ultimate firearm "ignorance leads to optimism". "Don't have to aim, totally reliable, profound stopping power." Failures, in pump guns, are often user induced and need action that's been drilled before. I'm sure you can rattle off all the types of issues from short stroking to incomplete insertion in the tube, back to cross bolt safeties aren't as natural as a selector switch to contemporary shooters. I've known quite a few people that wanted "a gun" for the home and decided they want a pump shotgun. I just just tell them, it ain't as easy as they make it seem, you'll never shoot it enough to be competent because of cost of ammo and you won't find it enjoyable as a novice shooter with its recoil, and when things go wrong, it goes real wrong compared to your basic glock-xd-sig n' wesson, and be honest with yourself, you're not going to drill with dummy rounds. There's a "gold standard" mystique for martial arms that follows shotguns around to this day. For some its media and overestimating there abilities as a shooter and shotguns as a weapon, and for others, its the thought that "its okay to own because its not an evil black gun." Quoted: He said at 5 yards you don’t need sights. Which is absolutely true for anyone who knows how to shoot their firearm, for a typical defensive situation. 5 yards is not where you want to be taking the time to line up your sights, it is where lots of practice comes into play, because fast hits win. Sights are for further back, and learning how to shoot the gun. However- It isn’t true if you are doing hostage rescue, and/or you have innocents mixed in amongst the bad guys, and you need to make a precision head shot. But that isn’t what is being discussed here. Heck yeah, you ought to be able to point shoot a long gun way past 5 yards and get COM hit as if its trivial. |
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Posted: 6/5/2023 8:28:59 AM EDT
[#48]
I wish I could find a 18” barrel for my versamax
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Posted: 6/5/2023 1:06:11 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I taught a shotgun class today. Two teen boys of friends of mine. At the end of the class I demonstrated that with Federal flight control at 10 yards you could shoot a hostage taker in the head and not hurt the hostage. After the demo, they both did it. A 1301T with FFC 00 buck is the most devastating home defense weapon a common person can have. For those of you who think it's slow, I ran a 6 plate rack in 2.36 from the low ready. Tactical Shotgun shooters here know what's up. If you want training, I suggest Tim Chandler, Ashton Ray, Erick Gelhaus, Rob and Matt Haught. Any of them can show you the Gospel of the gauge. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/124978/1301Taction_jpg-2840707.JPG @buckshot_jim - What did you add to your 1301T? How do you think it compares to the Benelli M4? |
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Posted: 6/5/2023 1:11:40 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @buckshot_jim - What did you add to your 1301T? How do you think it compares to the Benelli M4? Mine is a gen 2, so I added a Nordic plus 2 extension, TLR1-HL light with tape switch, Aridus CROM mount, Holosun green dot, Esstac shotgun cards on the receiver and stock and Blue Force Gear sling. I think it is superior to the M4. it feeds anything, including low brass training rounds. The action is faster. The gas system reduces recoil better than the M4 does. I have shot and been to lots of classes where M4s were being used and have seen several malfunctions. You can buy a 1301T and completely outfit it for less than a stock M4. |
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