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Posted: 11/18/2003 9:35:39 AM EDT
You got a rifle that is super reliable, it holds 75rds is accurate enough at short range. And it shoots a round that will penetrate cars, walls glass pretty well.

its also short enough to clear rooms.

I think thats as good as it gets for the urban SHTF riot type situation.
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 9:53:45 AM EDT
The only thing better would be a belt fed with nearly the same overall length. But hell yes, an AK with several drums is one hell of a crowd pleaser.
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 10:01:06 AM EDT
Don't forget the Kobra red dot. All right, now I'm popping smoke and gettin outa' here before all the AK hating AR fans get a hold on this thread like Micheal Jackson with a 12 Y/O boy.
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 10:03:55 AM EDT
Its a good choice thats for damn sure!
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 10:14:53 AM EDT
Yep.

Link Posted: 11/18/2003 10:21:53 AM EDT
i'd rather have mah AR
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 10:26:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/18/2003 10:27:20 AM EDT by Wave]
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 10:30:43 AM EDT
I would take my AK or FAL before I would grab my AR.
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 10:30:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 2IDdoc:
Don't forget the Kobra red dot. All right, now I'm popping smoke and gettin outa' here before all the AK hating AR fans get a hold on this thread like Micheal Jackson with a 12 Y/O boy.



Damn thats had me .

Link Posted: 11/18/2003 10:32:09 AM EDT
Why not just an SKS with a drum?

They really are just tools you know.
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 10:35:32 AM EDT
Don't make me cry, that was my planned SHTF gun, till CT made a super tight registration dead line I missed. My romanian beauty is no longer with me [>Q]. Guess I'll have to become an AR fan now...
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 10:38:44 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 10:48:59 AM EDT
I have a drum and it makes way too much noise and is too hard to reload. I would prefer a backpack full of magazines.
It is pretty intimidating bumpfiring it. Probably the closest to to a SAW I will ever get.
Those 75 round drums go really fast when you bump fire them.

Link Posted: 11/18/2003 10:59:53 AM EDT
The only AK I'd want in any SHTF scenario would be a FA (class 3) one. Forget the semi-auto, if I'm stuck with semi I'll go with something better.

MHO, YMMV
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 11:02:08 AM EDT
An Ak is a fine choice for urban combat. A 75 Rnd. drum adds too much weight to the rifle and makes it clumbsy. I'll take the regular 30 rounders, a select fire AK and some frags.
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 11:04:48 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 11:20:31 AM EDT


HK 91 around the shoulder.
Right hand: AR15; Left hand: AK47.
Hang on the right side at the waist: MP5 SD; Left side: Uzi.

What else?
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 11:37:54 AM EDT
I'd go with that or an Uzi Model A semi or Vector f/a.

Solid, reliable, just as wicked looking (I'd rather have a "omg- I'm not gonna screw with THAT guy" versus a "nice popgun, get 'em!"), and cheap and available ammo.

Mike
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 11:43:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mojo:


HK 91 around the shoulder.
Right hand: AR15; Left hand: AK47.
Hang on the right side at the waist: MP5 SD; Left side: Uzi.

What else?




More hands by the sounds of it!
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 12:00:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 2whiskeyP:

Originally Posted By mojo:


HK 91 around the shoulder.
Right hand: AR15; Left hand: AK47.
Hang on the right side at the waist: MP5 SD; Left side: Uzi.

What else?




More hands by the sounds of it!



If there is one thing Mojo can count on it is the helping hands of the rest of the Texas Crew.
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 1:00:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/18/2003 1:04:32 PM EDT by AR-15Fan]
Yeah, I was going to say I'd go with 30rnders over the drum too. I'd be tempted to go with an AK in 5.45 too. You wouldn't find ammo you could use around like you might be able to do with 7.62, but I kinda figure on having several 1000 rnd cases anyway...
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 2:20:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Alex_F:
The only AK I'd want in any SHTF scenario would be a FA (class 3) one. Forget the semi-auto, if I'm stuck with semi I'll go with something better.

MHO, YMMV

I heard this one from ETH "if you dont have a machine gun one day one ... you will on day 2"
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 2:24:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wave:
You MUST HAVE a COLT M4 w/ an ARMS SIR Sytem, SureFire Lights, Trijicon ACOG, Beta-C magazine, Camel Back Hydration system, Federal XM-193 ammo, Blackhawk Vest, Strider Knife, MARPAT camo, and an H&K Pistol.



I have ALL that! What do I do now?


Link Posted: 11/18/2003 2:36:16 PM EDT
I don't think they worked very well at all for the LA Bank Robbers.
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 2:59:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
I don't think they worked very well at all for the LA Bank Robbers.



the aks?

If those psychos wanted to escape they could have instead they decided to fight it out. They were using no cover and were just spraying rounds.
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 3:07:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
I don't think they worked very well at all for the LA Bank Robbers.



neither did the full auto g3 or the ar.
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 3:47:56 PM EDT
M4, need i say more
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 4:10:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
And as a bonus after 100 rounds you can used it to start fires.

An AK maybe reliable enough to keep shooting after 100 rounds but unless you are wearing asbestos gloves you ain't gonna be able to hold it after 100 rounds.

My apologies to the "But isn't the AK47 the greatest gun ever made?" crowd.



True, it does get hot. It seems like my Nomex gloves do just fine to insulate the heat. If you fire a hundred rounds and are still in the $hit, your in rough shape nomatter what gun you're humpin'. From what I hear, Kvar furniture helps with the heat. I know I've been burned more than once by old my m16 m4.
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 4:27:42 PM EDT
…sounds pretty good to me.

The only thing about AK’s that gives them a SIGNIFICANT disadvantage over AR’s at urban ranges is their sights. I REALLY like the large, ghost-ring rear sight on AR’s for short/medium range work. Only a red-dot would be faster.
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 4:32:26 PM EDT
It worked well to kill schoool children. Then again, they don't shoot back. I would take a AR15 carbine. Still, be nice to have an AK for someone that doesn't know guns that well. Duh, conscript gun.
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 5:00:32 PM EDT

It worked well to kill schoool children. Then again, they don't shoot back. I would take a AR15 carbine. Still, be nice to have an AK for someone that doesn't know guns that well. Duh, conscript gun.


I think we have a winner in the Most Pretentious, Condescending Post Of The Month Award...
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 5:29:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/18/2003 5:31:56 PM EDT by cyrsequipment2003]

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
And as a bonus after 100 rounds you can used it to start fires.

An AK maybe reliable enough to keep shooting after 100 rounds but unless you are wearing asbestos gloves you ain't gonna be able to hold it after 100 rounds.

My apologies to the "But isn't the AK47 the greatest gun ever made?" crowd.



I have have both an AR and an AK. I did an experiment once and fired a case through both of them one weekend without cleaning them.

We can all guess which jammed first (although, to be fair even though I was using crappy ammo and didn't clean it at all, the bushmaster only jammed once). The AK would have easily taken another 2-3k without any problems.

I have been burned by hot barrels on both of these guns at least once, I have never been shot.

If the SHTF, I'd chose the one that "might" give me a burn over the one that "might" jam before the initial dust settled.

After it calmed down a bit I'd clean the AK and use the AR to pick off small bands of looters for their gear.

Link Posted: 11/18/2003 6:13:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/18/2003 6:17:05 PM EDT by shamayim]
My class 3'd XM177E2 clone. That way, if I need to hit something over 100 yds away, I'd trust it. Oh yeah, I sling the .22 long rifle AF conversion unit in a BREN gun mag pouch on the side, so if I get to the open country, I can take small game w/it. Of course, I live in the country to begin with, so why the hell would I (or any sane human being) want to be in the city in the first damn place

BTW, I own 6 AKs and 5 ARs, so don't accuse me of being an AR only kind of guy. If I had to have an AK type, it'd be my Galil. .223 ammo is still more common than 7.62x39
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 6:25:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/18/2003 6:43:42 PM EDT by az-ar]

Originally Posted By SS109:
I have a drum and it makes way too much noise and is too hard to reload. I would prefer a backpack full of Bulgarian waffle magazines.
It is pretty intimidating bumpfiring it. Probably the closest to to a SAW I will ever get.
Those 75 round drums go really fast when you bump fire them.




And the synthetic k-var handguards really do tame the heat. So that's a non-issue for me.

edited twice 4 gramor airs
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 6:30:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/18/2003 6:34:00 PM EDT by Dave_A]
IMHO, a FA 7.62mm AK with forward wood PG & a drum is about equivalent to a Thompson SMG...

Similar effective ranges, and the AK delivers about subgun accuracy... Both are super reliable...

A semiauto AK looses some of it's usefullness, just like a semiauto subgun (and yes, I've fired both (FA and SA AKs), so I can compare...)...
Link Posted: 11/19/2003 8:26:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cyrax777:

Originally Posted By Alex_F:
The only AK I'd want in any SHTF scenario would be a FA (class 3) one. Forget the semi-auto, if I'm stuck with semi I'll go with something better.

MHO, YMMV

I heard this one from ETH "if you dont have a machine gun one day one ... you will on day 2"



Exactly.

I'm not worried about getting a perfect rifle now. I'll have one when the time comes, one way or another...
Link Posted: 11/19/2003 8:53:16 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/19/2003 9:48:58 AM EDT
Man, that's a toughie...but I *think* I'd go with my SAR 3...AK reliability in the ever popular .223 lol. Ammo will be plentiful, and you can always "acquire" better stuff later, if you need it. I expect the SAR 3 would do what I need it to do accuracy wise, and you KNOW it's gonna be pretty much idiot proof in terms of maintenence.
Link Posted: 11/19/2003 10:34:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 123whisper:
It worked well to kill schoool children.



Actually it didn't even do well at that:

www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/fl_aw_report2.txt

AK the choice of untrained peasants the world over. M4 the choice of trained professional soldiers the world over.
Link Posted: 11/19/2003 10:44:31 AM EDT
I built a rifle specifically for such things, and named it my Urban Combat Rifle, or UCR for short. It stays VERY cool, is very accurate, 100% reliable, easy to carry/find ammo for, werks fer me.

Link Posted: 11/19/2003 10:48:59 AM EDT
An AR with a couple of Beta-Mags...
Link Posted: 11/19/2003 10:52:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/19/2003 10:55:33 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/19/2003 11:06:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:
Have none of y'all ever seen the video, Kill The AK!?

<snip>




Do you have a copy of this video? I'd be interested in watching that.

Mike
Link Posted: 11/19/2003 11:08:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/19/2003 11:11:38 AM EDT by 123whisper]

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By 123whisper:
It worked well to kill schoool children.



Actually it didn't even do well at that:

www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/fl_aw_report2.txt

AK the choice of untrained peasants the world over. M4 the choice of trained professional soldiers the world over.



I didn't know that the shot and survived and shot and died split was that big. Although it isn't suprising with the slow yaw rate and the non-fragmenting wound profile.

AK is the best gun for what it was developed for. The AR15 is the best gun it was developed for.

AK was developed by a Russian. Russia has always had a large amount of conscripts. Conscripts generally do not care for the cause, are not trained well, and don't take care of their weapons very well.

AR15 was developed by an American. Americans have very high volunteer numbers. America at the time was a nation of riflemen. They clean their weapons.

I did not intend the original post to be as bad as it turned out. I forgot the smileys!
Link Posted: 11/19/2003 11:19:23 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/19/2003 11:29:13 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/19/2003 12:12:47 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/19/2003 12:33:06 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/19/2003 12:49:02 PM EDT
If TSHTF, my 2 AKs will probably remain where they are right now, collecting dust in the back of the gun vault. The only reason I could foresee them getting any use in such a situation would be if I needed to lend a weapon to someone unfamiliar with firearms where a reliable but inaccurate bullethose is still better than nothing at all.
Link Posted: 11/19/2003 1:00:27 PM EDT
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