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Posted: 11/19/2002 12:20:33 PM EDT
Some otherwise smart shooters carry fmj rounds for self-defense, particularly in 1911's chambered for the .45. Since EFMJ and Pow'R ball type loads are available to feed just like FMJ, I don't see the feeding requirement for FMJ. Also, if your auto will feed HP's like the Speer Gold Dot or Golden Saber, then why not carry that instead? Are some of you still convinced that hitting someone with a .45 (even fmj) will tear them in half? Not trolling here, just trying to get a reason. [thinking]
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 12:26:43 PM EDT
The few area's where a hardball is better. Generally, fmj ammo is easier for the firearm to feed, thus making it in theory a more reliable cartridge. Another is fmj will have better penitration capibilities then a hollow point. Me personally, would never use fmj .45 in a self defence situation. Hyproshocks and golden sabers for me.
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 12:27:13 PM EDT
I was told by people who know, that the expansion potential of HP's are just not all that great in .45's, so why bother?
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 1:27:25 PM EDT
Seems to me a hot loaded .45 FMJ is plenty good enough for self defense. Why make things more complicated than they need to be?
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 2:03:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/19/2002 2:05:17 PM EDT by DJbump]
As long as you hit where you want, FMJ .45 has proven capable of doing the job just fine. My carry guns are all fed FMJ 45 rounds.
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 2:12:40 PM EDT
Your Honor, the defendant was using exploding bullets designed to do horrendous damage and cause undue suffering to my poor client's deceased husband. These bullets were specifically selected by this "Gun Enthusiast" knowing full well their lethality.... or Your Honor, my client was using Jacketed ammunition, the same as our armed forces are required to use to comply with the Geneva Convention. It is used to humanely incapacitate the aggressor and to stop the action. Unfortunately, the two rounds entered the mediastinum and caused unintentional massive damage to the lungs and other vital organs resulting in death. My 45acp will get the job done regardless of the type of bullets I put in the chest of a bad guy. I just prefer the Geneva Convention defense at the Civil trial I know will follow.
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 2:17:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/19/2002 2:18:18 PM EDT by PVFD304]
Because I shot my "carry ammo" at the range one day and never restocked for some odd reason.
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 2:17:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 2:19:49 PM EDT
Neither I nor any of my friends use fmj in our 1911's for self defense. Federal Hydroshocks in the GI guns, and Corbons in the compact and officers models.
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 2:21:12 PM EDT
I don't own a .45, but this same conversation went among friends. They concluded that Hydroshocks are the best for a .45, but FMJ works just fine any ways. I guess it depends on how much damage you want to do. Bilster
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 2:26:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 82ndAbn: flachette and slug in the 12ga.
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Would these get you in trouble in court if you used them for self defense? I'm thinking kinda like in a Jeep29 sort of situation.
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 3:35:32 PM EDT
Because my .32 acp (p32) with hollowpoints doesn't penetrate as much as a .32 acp fmj. In my beretta, I use hydra shok, with 4 spare mags of nato 124gr fmj. TXLEWIS
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 3:43:09 PM EDT
I use 230gr fmj ball in my .45's I forget the exact quote, but a famous gun instructor said something to the effect of "ball gives the baddie two holes to leak bodily fluids out of"
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 4:03:05 PM EDT
I waited for someone to bring it up, and tactical jew did it for me. As a 2L law student, we have already learned that there is actually MORE liability involved in using FMJ ammo vs. hollowpoint ammmo. The Geneva Convention defense sounds good to the average joe, but nothing in the Geneva Convention has any bearing on a civil case- hence the reason almost all police depts load up with hollowpoint ammo. If deadly force is appropriate, then you are authorized to use reasonable force to end the threat- conventional factory hollowpoint ammo is "reasonable" in every civil court I am aware of. Here's why: In the eyes of most civil systems, hp ammo is LESS deadly and MORE humane than fmj ammo. The reasoning is that hp ammo will not (theoretically) overpenetrate a body and cause needless injury or death to innocent folks. Also, since hollowpoint ammo does not penetrate all the way through (theoretically), it is less deadly to the person being shot because they will not bleed from both wounds (yeah right), and are supposed to be incapacitated by the transfer of energy from the round, rather than rapid blood loss. (false, I know, but this is what the law thinks about it) Brouhaha or Troy need to set some of you straight though- either that or some of you need to visit the ammo oracle. I really can't believe that some of you folks still carry fmj ammo in 2002- kind of quaint. Read up on permanent wound cavity vs. temporary wound cavity, and let me know how big the permanent wound cavity is for an ogive profile fmj bullet. (answer: a deep, skinny hole that is not likely to sever arteries and crush nerves and other tissue) [;)] Of course, I wouldn't let you shoot me with a damn thing- fmj or otherwise. [;)]
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 4:23:49 PM EDT
Count me as otherwise smart. I like a little penetration....for my bullets in a defensive situation. You never know what type of shot you might need to take or what kind of barriers you may need to shoot through. Ball isn't great for penetrating barriers but it should be better than HP. It's also cheaper and the chance of actually having to use it is so miniscule that you are probably not hurting yourself either way.
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 5:05:27 PM EDT
Call me crazy, but I think that 15 inches of ballistic gelatin after barrier penetration is plenty enough penetration to dispatch a homo sapien- anything over 15 inches and you are just creating an excessive liability. Police departments and the FBI, CIA, etc. have already learned this, but it takes the average joe a whole generation to keep up I guess.
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 5:10:27 PM EDT
Some of the special forces I know would load three rounds of FMJ on top of hollow points for their BHP's in Vietnam. They said that the FMJ would clear objects like glass better should they need to shot through it.
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 5:18:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/19/2002 5:20:32 PM EDT by Reactionary]
Call me crazy, but I think that 15 inches of ballistic gelatin after barrier penetration is plenty enough penetration to dispatch a homo sapien- anything over 15 inches and you are just creating an excessive liability.
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What's the barrier?
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 5:24:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Jeep29: Your Honor, the defendant was using exploding bullets designed to do horrendous damage and cause undue suffering to my poor client's deceased husband. These bullets were specifically selected by this "Gun Enthusiast" knowing full well their lethality.... or Your Honor, my client was using Jacketed ammunition, the same as our armed forces are required to use to comply with the Geneva Convention. It is used to humanely incapacitate the aggressor and to stop the action. Unfortunately, the two rounds entered the mediastinum and caused unintentional massive damage to the lungs and other vital organs resulting in death. My 45acp will get the job done regardless of the type of bullets I put in the chest of a bad guy. I just prefer the Geneva Convention defense at the Civil trial I know will follow.
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or My client used the EXACT same ammunition carried by the sheriff's deputies performing bailiff's duties in this courtroom. Law enforcement chooses this round because it is better at stopping the threat quickly and effectively. There is no added liability for carrying a reputable JHP, and less liability than carrying FMJ, because FMJ can and will over-penetrate. I have personal experience or first hand knowledge of shootings with Winchester Ranger SXT .45 shootings-it will reliably expand when hitting people or animals. Now, mind you, .45 FMJs have killed plenty of people, and I wouldn't want to be shot with one (or a .22 Short, for that matter) but you are generally going to get better wound channels and better results with a modern JHP. FMJ was great for taking it to the Kaiser's troops or clearing a Japanese bunker. For modern self defense in the 21st century, stick to a 21st century round.
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 5:35:40 PM EDT
I practice alot & Use .45 FMJ only, If I used hollowpoints I would not practice that much(Due to the very high price). With a handgun caliber Shot placement is the most important factor!
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 5:36:25 PM EDT
Without getting into the much-discussed liability issues already covered in this thread, I'll say that my choice for defense ammo in the .45 is 230 gr. FMJ ammo, just like Uncle Sam uses. This is first and foremost to assure absolute reliability, and my .45 is completely reliable when and only when fed ball ammo, as it's an early model Colt M1911, not an A1. Second, I question the ability of hollowpoints to expand as designed with a .45. If I were absolutely sure they were reliable, my opinion might be different, but as it is, I'll stick with what I trust and I know works. If I'm going to shoot someone, it won't be to wound, it'll be to kill. There is no other acceptable option. FMJ is highly lethal in a vital area and I can be assured of good penetration, hence a long, bleeding wound cavity. If I do have to shoot someone, you can bet that it'll be under circumstances where the action is justified, so I won't be worrying about what a judge or jury thinks of my ammo selection. As the shooting is virtually guaranteed to be 'clean', why should I worry about that possibility? Heck, I wouldn't even hesitate to use my own handloads in such a situation. I actually put more trust in my handloads than in any factory ammo, as I am totally sure that each round I load up is made right. I can't say that about ammo that comes in a box. And the way I load my rounds, it'd be difficult to prove they weren't factory ammo anyway. CJ
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 5:39:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By dissipator556: I waited for someone to bring it up, and tactical jew did it for me. As a 2L law student, we have already learned that there is actually MORE liability involved in using FMJ ammo vs. hollowpoint ammmo. The Geneva Convention defense sounds good to the average joe, but nothing in the Geneva Convention has any bearing on a civil case- hence the reason almost all police depts load up with hollowpoint ammo. If deadly force is appropriate, then you are authorized to use reasonable force to end the threat- conventional factory hollowpoint ammo is "reasonable" in every civil court I am aware of. Here's why: In the eyes of most civil systems, hp ammo is LESS deadly and MORE humane than fmj ammo. The reasoning is that hp ammo will not (theoretically) overpenetrate a body and cause needless injury or death to innocent folks. Also, since hollowpoint ammo does not penetrate all the way through (theoretically), it is less deadly to the person being shot because they will not bleed from both wounds (yeah right), and are supposed to be incapacitated by the transfer of energy from the round, rather than rapid blood loss. (false, I know, but this is what the law thinks about it) Brouhaha or Troy need to set some of you straight though- either that or some of you need to visit the ammo oracle. I really can't believe that some of you folks still carry fmj ammo in 2002- kind of quaint. Read up on permanent wound cavity vs. temporary wound cavity, and let me know how big the permanent wound cavity is for an ogive profile fmj bullet. (answer: a deep, skinny hole that is not likely to sever arteries and crush nerves and other tissue) [;)] Of course, I wouldn't let you shoot me with a damn thing- fmj or otherwise. [;)]
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Diss, Can you cite actual case where x ammo was a bigger liability? Im no lawyer, nor am I a law student, but I dont see where the ammo would be a deciding factor as long as use of the gun in a self- defense situation was justified. Thanks.
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 5:57:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 82ndAbn: Staggered ball and black talon in the 9mm
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My God, man, you admit to using those evil cop-killer bullets? [shock]
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 6:56:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By dissipator556: I really can't believe that some of you folks still carry fmj ammo in 2002- kind of quaint.
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There are plenty of dead enemy soldiers from WW1, WW2, Korea, and Vietnam, who would not agree with you. Dead is dead, whether by newfangled hollowpoint or by ball ammo.
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 10:00:58 PM EDT
11 rounds of 230gr. SXT's will ruin someone's day...[rolleyes]
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 10:13:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/19/2002 10:36:02 PM EDT by Lumpy196]
Originally Posted By Jeep29: Your Honor, the defendant was using exploding bullets designed to do horrendous damage and cause undue suffering to my poor client's deceased husband. These bullets were specifically selected by this "Gun Enthusiast" knowing full well their lethality.... or Your Honor, my client was using Jacketed ammunition, the same as our armed forces are required to use to comply with the Geneva Convention. It is used to humanely incapacitate the aggressor and to stop the action. Unfortunately, the two rounds entered the mediastinum and caused unintentional massive damage to the lungs and other vital organs resulting in death. My 45acp will get the job done regardless of the type of bullets I put in the chest of a bad guy. I just prefer the Geneva Convention defense at the Civil trial I know will follow.
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"I submit to you that my client had no way of knowing his bullet would completely penetrate the perpetrator of this crime and strike and kill the 14 year old girl in the next isle of the convience store they were in." Do you think in a civil trial they will accept the military concept of "collateral damage?"
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 10:24:52 PM EDT
1 round of ANY caliber, properly applied, will END a persons day. I can assure you a .45 FMJ will slow down / stop most any attacker. I ain't gonna shoot anybody that ISN'T attacking me. I am also not going to shoot anything I don't intend to kill. There is no "magic" bullet. Some are more effective than others but they all work. I have always wondered about the wound potential of wadcutters. I'll deal with the liability issue after I survive the encounter. Best way to stay out of trouble is not to shoot except as the very LAST resort. It is still better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6!!
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 10:32:24 PM EDT
FMJ...Cause it still hurts plenty! I would be comfortable with either, as long as it's reliable and accurate.
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 10:50:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By garr: I practice alot & Use .45 FMJ only, If I used hollowpoints I would not practice that much(Due to the very high price).
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Why? There is no reason why you cannot practice with FMJ and load hollowpoints for defense as long as you stay in the same weight and velocity range. If you want to keep using 230gr M1911 ball to practice, then stick to 230gr standard velocity hollow points for defense. Group size may change some but point of aim wont.
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 11:14:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cmjohnson: Without getting into the much-discussed liability issues already covered in this thread, I'll say that my choice for defense ammo in the .45 is 230 gr. FMJ ammo, just like Uncle Sam uses.
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Except Uncle doesn't. They get issued Ranger SXT for terrorists, FMJ only for use against uniformed soldiers of another country. FBI uses Gold Dots and Golden Sabers.
This is first and foremost to assure absolute reliability, and my .45 is completely reliable when and only when fed ball ammo, as it's an early model Colt M1911, not an A1.
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Well as long as you are going to stick to using that one gun. But you would probably find that Federal EFMJ would work a little better and be just as reliable even in it. Its also a special case and doesn't address why people still use FMJ in new production guns.
Second, I question the ability of hollowpoints to expand as designed with a .45. If I were absolutely sure they were reliable, my opinion might be different, but as it is, I'll stick with what I trust and I know works.
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Um, if a hollowpoint fails to open you GET FMJ performance. The worst terminal effects you can get with hollow points would be the same as ball of the same weight and velocity. .45ACP slugs are too big and slow to come apart and fail on impact like .223 rifle hollowpoints can.
If I'm going to shoot someone, it won't be to wound, it'll be to kill. There is no other acceptable option. FMJ is highly lethal in a vital area and I can be assured of good penetration, hence a long, bleeding wound cavity.
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If the hollowpoint works you will get a slightly shorter, but wider, cavity. For most .45 loads it will still exit, or come very close to it (lodged under the skin or in the victims clothes). If the hollowpoint fails to open-then it will perform the same as FMJ of the same weight and velocity.
If I do have to shoot someone, you can bet that it'll be under circumstances where the action is justified, so I won't be worrying about what a judge or jury thinks of my ammo selection. As the shooting is virtually guaranteed to be 'clean', why should I worry about that possibility? Heck, I wouldn't even hesitate to use my own handloads in such a situation. I actually put more trust in my handloads than in any factory ammo, as I am totally sure that each round I load up is made right. I can't say that about ammo that comes in a box. And the way I load my rounds, it'd be difficult to prove they weren't factory ammo anyway. CJ
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I have yet to see someone produce evidence of a private citizen-as opposed to a peace officer-being even prosecuted, much less convicted for using handloaded ammo. But I would be more concerned about reliablity, especally if I was loading with a progressive machine. Its another matter entirely for rounds made-and inspected- one at a time on manual equipment.
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 11:32:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 82ndAbn: Staggered ball and black talon in the 9mm
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I tried this for awhile, but could never remember which rounds were where. I used Hydra Shok and AP though. Then I went to having separate mags for each type of ammo, and located them in such a way around me that I would know what was where. I currently have at least 2 mags loaded with FMJ b/c I'm short of ammo, at least till my ammo from ammoday comes. Those mags are last resort though, b/c I'm scared of pass throughs.
Link Posted: 11/20/2002 6:53:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Tactical_Jew: Diss, Can you cite actual case where x ammo was a bigger liability? Im no lawyer, nor am I a law student, but I dont see where the ammo would be a deciding factor as long as use of the gun in a self- defense situation was justified. Thanks.
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Maybe I'm being unclear here, so I will say it again. The problem is that your use of FMJ could be seen as the proximate cause of an innocent person's death, simply because you chose an unsuitable self-defense load. A tort lawyer is going to have a field day asking you why you were using ammunition that was specifically designed to overpenetrate, and why you didn't use a more modern, appropriate loading. If it can be show that a hollowpoint load would not have killed the innocent person, you are going to be adding an aggravating factor to an already bad situation for you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As someone else said, there are plenty of dead foreigners that have been killed by .45 ball ammo. Here's the problem with that: I don't have the luxury of having my enemy die over five or ten minutes, because my enemy won't be in a foxhole- he will be charging at me about to kill me. I want something that will kill as fast as possible, and do the most damage per round. The FMJ's (even .45) skinny wound cavities with small permanent wound cavities don't impress me much when I could have a large, deep permanent wound cavity- I know which one I would rather be shot with. On second thought, I'm not letting you shoot me with either one, unless it's a paintball gun...that happens all the time unfortunately.
Link Posted: 11/20/2002 7:37:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ECS:
Originally Posted By dissipator556: I really can't believe that some of you folks still carry fmj ammo in 2002- kind of quaint.
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There are plenty of dead enemy soldiers from WW1, WW2, Korea, and Vietnam, who would not agree with you. Dead is dead, whether by newfangled hollowpoint or by ball ammo.
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There are plenty of dead Frenchmen killed by English longbows in the middle ages. Dead is dead, whether by newfangled handguns or by arrows. -Nick Viejo.
Link Posted: 11/20/2002 7:45:07 PM EDT
I'd feel fine with FMJ's in my USP .45. That's what I had in it for a while, but now it's loaded with 230 grain Golden Sabres. Same grain as the FMJs I practice with, cost and all. I'd like to load up with Federal EFMJs, but nobody around here carries them.
Link Posted: 11/20/2002 7:51:16 PM EDT
?!?!HAVEN'T YOU READ THE REPORTS?!! 45 ACP will absolutely TEAR A PERSON IN HALF! Even if you actually miss the perp, the concussion and size of the bore alone will kill him! Why would anyone NEED hollow points? Sheesh.... [:D] On a separate note, have any of you hydra-shok fans shot those babies at night?! Whoa. Talk about blinding muzzle flash. I read on a thread here or there or somewhere that they were bright so I tried some in low light to see if that was true and it sure was! I was launching them out of a Kimber Ultra Carry and I was getting some huge ol' fireballs. Seems like it might be a liability in a low light shooting. I'm still using them but am looking for something less "flashy" "Flash"BurnRepeat
Link Posted: 11/20/2002 8:16:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By dissipator556:
Originally Posted By Tactical_Jew: Diss, Can you cite actual case where x ammo was a bigger liability? Im no lawyer, nor am I a law student, but I dont see where the ammo would be a deciding factor as long as use of the gun in a self- defense situation was justified. Thanks.
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Maybe I'm being unclear here, so I will say it again. The problem is that your use of FMJ could be seen as the proximate cause of an innocent person's death, simply because you chose an unsuitable self-defense load. A tort lawyer is going to have a field day asking you why you were using ammunition that was specifically designed to overpenetrate, and why you didn't use a more modern, appropriate loading. If it can be show that a hollowpoint load would not have killed the innocent person, you are going to be adding an aggravating factor to an already bad situation for you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As someone else said, there are plenty of dead foreigners that have been killed by .45 ball ammo. Here's the problem with that: I don't have the luxury of having my enemy die over five or ten minutes, because my enemy won't be in a foxhole- he will be charging at me about to kill me. I want something that will kill as fast as possible, and do the most damage per round. The FMJ's (even .45) skinny wound cavities with small permanent wound cavities don't impress me much when I could have a large, deep permanent wound cavity- I know which one I would rather be shot with. On second thought, I'm not letting you shoot me with either one, unless it's a paintball gun...that happens all the time unfortunately.
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Ah, gotcha. That can apply to any bullet, actually. Even if it is a fancy xyz jhp.What can say that a person wont miss and hit somebody anyways? I mean, self defense situations happen FAST! You usually dont have the time to get into a isoceles stance,crusp grip, double tap, insert tactical word of the week here.A bad dude can close in on you so fast it'll make your head spin.A bad dude will NOT let you know hes going to attack you.You MAY not be able to get a clean shot off in all circumstances. I, for one, know carrying a firearm is a huge responsibility, and as MM has stated above, it should be used as a last resort.I DONT wnat to have to shoot anyone, but if my life or my family is on the line, im gonna do what I have to do to wakeup alive the next day.
Link Posted: 11/21/2002 4:55:16 AM EDT
I agree with tactical here. In a defensive situation chances are you are going to miss more often than you hit. Shooting under stress is difficult and although practice helps, it's difficult to replicate real world scenarios on the range. 'What I'm saying is that if there is the potential of hitting innocents if your shot overpenetrates, you are risking endangering them no matter what your ammo is.
Link Posted: 11/21/2002 10:42:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Reactionary: I'm saying is that if there is the potential of hitting innocents if your shot overpenetrates, you are risking endangering them no matter what your ammo is.
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Negative, sir. Some loads are just more prone to overpentrate than others, based on quantifiable ballistic gel tesing. That's not my opinon- that is a scientific fact. Dead is dead, but 'quickly dead' (ie a modern hollowpoint) is way better than 'slowly dead,' (ie a fmj), if you want to live to tell your range buddies the story. Carry what you want, and do as you please, but ask yourself why every police and federal agency in the Nation either carries or wants to carry hollow-point pistol ammunition. As one responder alluded to, Regan signed executive order XYZ (?), which allows military anti-terrorism and hostage rescue missions to be accomplished with hollow-point ammo (now 230 gr SXT, I believe). You think they wanted to use fmj on some crazy ass islamic militant whacko who could probably soak up 10 fmj loads before he finally dropped? Hell no. I'm tired of arguing the obvious to you stuborn bastards, so I guess we'll just say damn the overwhelming scientific data and damn the proven street results; let's just agree to disagree on this one. As long as I'm right, everything's ok. [flame]
Link Posted: 11/21/2002 12:17:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/21/2002 12:19:12 PM EDT by Reactionary]
------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally Posted By Reactionary: I'm saying is that if there is the potential of hitting innocents if your shot overpenetrates, you are risking endangering them no matter what your ammo is. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Negative, sir. Some loads are just more prone to overpentrate than others, based on quantifiable ballistic gel tesing. That's not my opinon- that is a scientific fact.
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I think you better read my post a little more closely, if someone is behind your target you ARE endangering them no matter what ammo you use. The danger may be less with HP ammo, but it is still a danger.
Carry what you want, and do as you please, but ask yourself why every police and federal agency in the Nation either carries or wants to carry hollow-point pistol ammunition.
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I really don't have strong opinions on this either way but it is fun to talk about. I can tell you exactly why all law enforcement agencies have gone to expanding ammo, they are less likely to be sued and they are often discharging their weapons in congested areas. I don't carry a weapon in town, only while travelling in rural areas, so I am less likely to endanger people with overpenetration, thus I carry ammo that will penetrate better. I don't think you are stupid or wrong to carry expanding ammo, but the original post on this thread was a little derogatory toward anyone who would consider fmj so I wanted clarify my reasoning.
Link Posted: 11/21/2002 12:41:42 PM EDT
The .45ACP gained its reputation in comparison to other automatic pistols in the day when they ALL were limited to FMJ ammo by technology-not the law. And the .45ACP FMJ performed better than all other auto pistol FMJ loads. That was good, but by modern standards not great. The only thing that the .45's historic good performance with FMJ tells us is that that is the WORST performance you can expect out of the cartridge is better than the WORST performance out of its compitition. When the best 9mm, .40, .45, and .357sig JHP loads perform as designed they all are about equal. Its when they fail to perform as designed that the .45 still has a edge.
Link Posted: 11/21/2002 12:41:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/21/2002 12:43:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/21/2002 12:46:13 PM EDT by Avalon01]
I carry FMJ in my 1911 since it's WINTER!!! If I have to punch through a heavy jacket, sweater, and an undershirt, I still want penetration. Last time I checked, the bad guys didn't wear tee-shirts in below freezing weather. When early spring rolls around, I switch back to Hydrashocks. Av.
Link Posted: 11/21/2002 12:52:06 PM EDT
Most of the newer HP's in .45 caliber expand very nicely. An FMJ is going to produce a .45 caliber hole. A Remington Golden Saber 230 gr bullet fired from a full size 1911 will produce up to a .68 or .70 hole! That's enough difference for me to choose the HP loads. Many carry ball ammo in 1911's because some of them don't feed HP's reliably. That's why I carry something that I know will feed anything I put in it.
Link Posted: 11/21/2002 1:56:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: There is no reason why you cannot practice with FMJ and load hollowpoints for defense as long as you stay in the same weight and velocity range.
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This is what I do. 124gr FMJ for practice and 124gr Golden Sabers for carry. Pistol is a 9mm Browning HiPower.
Link Posted: 11/21/2002 2:04:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/21/2002 2:30:51 PM EDT by gravitynoodle]
Originally Posted By dissipator556: [from two posts] As a 2L law student, we have already learned that there is actually MORE liability involved in using FMJ ammo vs. hollowpoint ammmo. In the eyes of most civil systems, hp ammo is LESS deadly and MORE humane than fmj ammo. Maybe I'm being unclear here, so I will say it again. The problem is that your use of FMJ could be seen as the proximate cause of an innocent person's death, simply because you chose an unsuitable self-defense load. A tort lawyer is going to have a field day asking you why you were using ammunition that was specifically designed to overpenetrate, and why you didn't use a more modern, appropriate loading.
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Judge Gravitynoodle respectfully dissents. Can you cite some cases in support of the above?
Link Posted: 11/21/2002 2:54:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By hielo: I was told by people who know, that the expansion potential of HP's are just not all that great in .45's, so why bother?
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Why bother? Well for one the HPs have less of a chance of going through the wall and killing your loved ones when you miss or the round penetrates through the perp. They will also expand and create a better wound cavity. Look at the Hydrashok and Win SXT rounds. You will be hard pressed to beat their performance. Do you need to shoot through 3 layers of glass or something?
Link Posted: 11/21/2002 2:55:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Avalon01: I carry FMJ in my 1911 since it's WINTER!!! If I have to punch through a heavy jacket, sweater, and an undershirt, I still want penetration. Last time I checked, the bad guys didn't wear tee-shirts in below freezing weather.
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This man has a point. I really like those Federal EFMJs but I can't buy them local.
Link Posted: 11/21/2002 2:56:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Tactical_Jew: I use 230gr fmj ball in my .45's I forget the exact quote, but a famous gun instructor said something to the effect of "ball gives the baddie two holes to leak bodily fluids out of"
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Right, and all sorts of holes and rounds going where you don't want them. That will look great in court.
Link Posted: 11/21/2002 3:21:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LE6920:
Originally Posted By Tactical_Jew: I use 230gr fmj ball in my .45's I forget the exact quote, but a famous gun instructor said something to the effect of "ball gives the baddie two holes to leak bodily fluids out of"
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Right, and all sorts of holes and rounds going where you don't want them. That will look great in court.
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And you can control jhps? are you saying if you fire them out of your gun you can automatically yell "stop" and they will stop? ALL ammo is unpredicatble coming out of a barrel.You can guarantee jhp's wont ricochet and hit someone? That jhp may not expand and it might as well be a fmj.There are no guarantees with bullets.
Link Posted: 11/21/2002 3:26:20 PM EDT
My question is, why does anybody care? If a man is comfortable carrying FMJ, let him carry FMJ in peace.
Link Posted: 11/21/2002 3:38:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Avalon01: I carry FMJ in my 1911 since it's WINTER!!! If I have to punch through a heavy jacket, sweater, and an undershirt, I still want penetration. Last time I checked, the bad guys didn't wear tee-shirts in below freezing weather. When early spring rolls around, I switch back to Hydrashocks. Av.
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Why? That makes no sense at ALL. The hollow points wont penetrate LESS if they get plugged up by heavy clothing they will penetrate MORE, they will become effectively FMJ. And it doesn't happen all the time. The majority of the time the hollow point still expands at least partially. Its a pretty random thing, and more of a concern for 9mm and .40 cals that are more sensitive to their bullets performing as designed than if you are already using a .45
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