This is what we do, debate inane trivia about  weapons.  Occasionally some new information is gleaned or an opinion changed, but that is secondary to entertainment.

ya, know...I was always under that impression myself. Last year I had "NOVAK" do a custom P14 for me and the topic of ammo came up. Joe Bonner, they're head 45 guy told me its just the opposite. Because of the curvature of the bullet, it tends to bounce more as it hits the top of the chamber. Also, when the slide racks back, the next round tends to wiggle in the feel lip of the mag and can come in contact with the slide stop, which will prematurely lock the slide back. A pointed round won't do that... Take it for what its worth.

In south carolina it would be this way

Judge : Your client was intetionally trying to harm the defendant. per south carolina law no civil suits may be brought against the defendant as his actions have been ruled selfdefense, Case Dismissed.

"Proven steet results"!?

Yeah, right . . .

You guys might want to poke around [url]www.ammolab.com[/url] to get the scoop on how popular defensive handgun loads will perform.

In particular, check out the "test results" & the discussion forums.  Lots of good & knowledgeable folks over there!!!

I shoot so many peoplz in self-defense, if I loaded hollow points it'd bust my budget.

IBTL

 OK Sir- case and point is the NYPD, and Chicago PD, plus about 100 other major police departments.

 Both Chicago and NY (and many others) loaded the 9mm in fmj, because liberal mayors/city councils would not allow evil hollowpoints.  

 Chicago in particular tried everydamnthing with the 9mm round, including a 90 grain very light jacketed fmj...they all SUCKED on the street, with common pass throughs and failure to quickly stop violent felons.  So much for the out-moded "two skinny holes" theory...  

 Last I heard, NYPD finally switched to the Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P, and Chicago has also gotten a hollowpoint loading.  Street results have improved- go ask Waverunner if you doubt me.

 This "better to have them bleeding from two skinny holes rather than one big deep hole" BS is obviously from people who have never seen an autopsy of a shooting victim.  Massive INTERNAL bleeding is every inch as deadly as bleeding externally from your back or chest.  Again, put one big deep hole in them instead of a deep skinny wound, if you want them down fast.  Actually a moot point after you read the following:

FYI- the Speer Gold Dot 165 gr loaded now in my .40 S&W went in one side of a 150lb hog's chest and lodged in the other side of his hide-expanded to about .800---dead in his tracks---that's what I call wounding potential boys.  I fully expect a 155gr Gold Dot to have all the penetration I could ever ask for against violent homo sapiens.    

I can't get over how funny some of you are- kind of like those poor delusional old fellas at church in the funny golf pants...no telling them differently, even though they are obviously lost.  Keep wearing your funny golf pants and carrying your FMJ's- God bless you for carrying at all.

 I do agree that how you train and shoot is more important than your load selection-no use having a great load if you miss the bastard(s) with it. But, as someone already mentioned, that's what we enjoy doing here-debating finer points such as this.  

 

Ive seen enough autopsy reports and pictures to say that a fmj will only leave a "skinny wound channel" to say BS.

I know just a little about anatomy, and anything that enters the human body at that speed and weight will cause a serious disruption to vital organs,bones,flesh,veins,vessels etc.

Ya think a 230gd fmj is just gonna leave a skinny wound channel? Hell no! its gonna leave a trail of destruction! Even a 9mm is going to elave some serious damage.It aint no dog in this area either.

As for the old men in golf hats comment, I happen to like my bright orange striped knickers.

Thanks.

If tactical Hebrew is referring to the temporary wound cavity, let me call BS.  Brouh, Tat, Troy, and the other ammo guru's can back me on this one.  Veins, arteries, and flesh in general are quite elastic, and can take quite a stretching before they tear.  

 A 9mm or even a .45 hole IS skinny when you compare it to the .80-.90 diameter of an expanded HP that you should be using.

Damn you people and your golf pants...[;)]  

I carry the same loads i target shoot with
180 gr fmj in a 10mm.Practice makes perfect.
Lawsuits are easier to defend against with these than hollowpoint mankiller bullets.

And let me tell you one more thing sonny boy, when I started carryin' we didn't have none a them nambly pambly repeatin' firearms, we used sharp sticks and clubs!  Why I never....

If penetration was the ONLY factor contributing to ending a threat than we should just all carry 9mm FMJs.  You don't see many people advocating that do you?

In a perfect world, the bad guy stands still and we're all perfect shots able to place a surgical shot exactly where necessary to stop the threat.  Since we don't live in a perfect world, we need every advantage we can get.  The reason to use HP rounds is that it does have a likelyhood of expanding.  An expanded round makes a bigger hole and thus have a better chance of hitting something that will stop your attacker if it ALSO has sufficient penetration to reach the vitals that need to be hit.

I don't know about you, but I'll take every additional advantage I can get if my life depended on it.  Does that mean that I'll take a HP over an FMJ if the HP is not reliable?  Of course not.  You need to think through your decisions.  Handgun "stopping" power is a marginal thing at best, but only someone who is stubbornly ignorant will believe that a well made HP won't have better "stopping" power than an FMJ round.  If your gun can feed HPs reliably why would you not use it?

Just so you all know, Portland Police conducted testing 10 years ago and found that fmj 9mm ammo WILL pass through an individual more often the not, there for is a HUGE liability.

They by their own law, are required to carry HP so the expanding bullet won't leave it's intended target.

They also found it to be more efficent at incapitation.

These 2 examples are the biggest reasons HP is used in most police depts.

So I think this case is closed!?

As far as legal repercussions regarrding hollowpoints/fmj, it all depends on where you are.  In Oklahoma City, the recently retired DA was a cowboy (String Tie, Boots, Hat and sixgun). I saw one of his prosecutors open carrying a Glock at gun store while he was pricing an HK. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be concerned what I used as long as I used it correctly [50]

As I said before, the expectation that the bad guy will stop your bullets is a mistake.  Under stress you will likely empty your magazine at the speed of light and will likely miss a number of times.  You better be sure of your target and beyond or hold your fire.  HPs will probably not go through walls as well as ball and that might be a consideration depending on where you live.

This case will never be closed because there is a case to be made for both kinds of ammo depending on what you consider are the most likely scenarios you could encounter in your area.

I thought about this thread this morning when they were talking about the "magic bullet" that killed Kennedy.  If you believe the Warren Report or not, one still has to admit that it's possible for a bullet to behave erratically (ricochet, expand, fragment) depending on it's velocity, the material it hits, the angle, bones, etc.

I use JHP ammo in my CZ75 and Gold-Dot in my Glock 32, mainly because of fear of "overpenetrating" and taking out the neighbors.

You can never have the best of both worlds.

Either something is really good in one area and lacks in others, or is just decent at them all.

In saying that with a couple of other varibles, like the type of firearm I carry in public (SP101 .357) and being realistic about a situation where I would actually pull the trigger, HP's will give me more pro's then con's and that's all you can do, weigh up your options.

In a REALISTIC self-defence scenerio, HP will work to your advantage.

.45 ACP FMJ make a nice sized hold going in and a nice sized hole going out.  Both holes leak lots of body fluid.  Perp leaks are good.

Besides, FMJ costs less, feeds best, and never jams up my Colt.

I have never seen anything function after an upper spinal colum hit, a fmj or solid is how you get there.

I'm not an expert for sure, but I practice with FMJ all day, but carry Black Talons for my Colt 1991 when its pulling self-defense duty by my night stand and in my CCW holster.

OK, we've had a rash of ignorant posts, so I'll try not to explode here...not to sound condescending, but I'm gonna lay the smack down here without mercy:

[b][i]Akethan:[/b][/i]  "Makiller bullets?" Now you sound like one of the stupid ass liberals. [stick] You don't have any formal legal training, so you are probably just saying that because you probably heard it in a gunshop somewhere from an ignoramus.  Don't think you'll get away with saying stupid stuff like that here.  Read the whole topic, and reference my comments about liability in a fmj vs. a hp.  [stick] Then go ask a cop what he's carrying, then go talk to a lawyer and ask him what he thinks about it. [stick]


[b][i]Rabon:[/b][/i] Someone needs to tell that dead 150 lb hog that I bagged about your little theory. [stick]  Apparently, Speer Gold Dot HP's  don't know that they aren't supposed to bust a rib, spinal chord, etc, and still make it to the other side of the animal.  [stick] A 165 or 155 gr Speer GDHP has all the penetration you could ask for against a human, plus it won't over-penetrate.  


[b][i]Crock: [/b][/i] You think that a few bucks really matters when your life is on the line?  [stick] Feeding problems?  Get a Glock, or feed your old dinosaur some CorBon Pow'R ball. [stick] Perp leaks are indeed good, and they are even better when they are larger and don't needlessly endager innocent people.  



 

I carry HP ammo (Fed Hydra Shk) in summer and FMJ in the winter. Prevents the possibility of goose down jackets, wests and extra heavy bulky clothing from pluggung the hollow point. Thus remdering the main reason of using it null and void.

Think of it this way...45ACP is pre expanded 9MM

You guys make it sound like shooting in defense is an everyday occurrance. Either looking forward to it or bragging about it when you do or did. CONCEALED carry is a privelage given to you by the legal system of your state, like it or not they can also take it away. Keep all your thoughts to yourself. This board is wide open, prosecutors can read too. There are plenty of articles on what the best kill/stopping  bullet is. Let the writers who are paid to report on this take the heat.

"People of the jury, the defendent was even on the web trying to find out what is the best bullet to kill someone with, hence I rest my case"

Now this is just plain dumb.

Your right, you are if you can't see this.

The most important aspects of "street results"  are "placement" (really, what structures the bullet strikes), and the state of mind of the "victim" (unless the bullet destroys the central nervious system). [b]Edited to add: the variable we are trying to resolve, bullet performance, is less significant than these two other variables.[/b]

The "proven street results" need error bars of something like 30% or more (ignoring the other problems involved in collecting the data, which probably invaladates it altogether). In other words, junk science.

OK DEC, I'll try not to bust a gasket here...[stick]  Have you ever thought of carrying a hollowpoint that performs well against barriers, and STILL expands?  Believe it or not, modern man has invented such a device. Well, without doing your homework for you, I'll just say that several designs are out there (See ammo oracle).  Also, EFMJ or PowR Ball from Corbon does quite well against "wests" and other barriers.  [stick]


 [b][i]STRONGHORN:[/b][/i] Please put your tinfoil hat back on, and make sure the shiny side is out. Thanks for playing, and please enjoy your door prize on the way out.
------------


 I agree that shot placement is more important than anything else, BUT everyone here understands that they won't have time to take the perfect isocoles stance and brace against a shooting rest when the time comes... hedge your bets, and go with a quality hollowpoint.  

For those [stick]who think police agencies only carry hp's for liability reasons (nonsense): check out what the Border Patrol, ATF, FBI, CIA, NSA, HRT, etc., etc. etc. carry in their sidearms.  These almost liability-proof federal XYZ organizations ALL carry hollowpoint pistol ammo.  

Hmmm, wonder if that is because they like their perps dead the quick way, as opposed to waiting 3-5 minutes for the perp to "leak out."  

  [rolleyes]

Well, FMJ seems to work just fine on a watermelon. I imagine the results would be similar on a person.

[img]http://photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/IG_Loadimage.asp?iImageUnq=646[/img]

Nice pic there Pathfinder---oh the carnage!

What caliber hit the melon?  

BTW, skin and animal/human tissues stretch a helluva lot more than a watermelon, so don't expect the BG to look like that unless you hit him with a 5.56 fmj.  

Excuse me, Mr. Stronghorn, I forgot to ask you where you received your formal legal training from.  Are you a lawyer or law student, or an amateur?  Kind of rhetorical, but I still want to hear him say it.  

Single round of 9mm 125gr TMJ reload from Miwall Corp. Distance was about 5 yards. Fired from a Beretta 92FS.

Ditto my comments about watermelons not being the optimal testing medium (haven't seen any of those ballistic watermelon testing experiments), but it still looks nice.  

 Shoot a hog or a deer with fmj 9mm, and your results will vary.  

 Many thanks to Troy, for setting the record straight.    

My concern is over penetration, if I give something to someone I expect ‘em to keep it for a while.  

SSD

Why FMJ?

Because I can actually afford to shoot it in quantity... I'm not the world's best pistol shot, and more variables (i.e different ammo, worrying about 'range ammo' vs 'good ammo', etc...) aren't desirable...

Because if I'm using either pistol for self defense it will be at very close range either in my house or from the trunk of my car...

OK, I asked this question NOT to be a troll, but simply to answer my question.
 Mission accomplished, because I learned that most carry fmj pistol ammmo 1) because it (and its user) are cheap, 2)because they are misinformed about the performance and enhanced wounding capabilities of modern hollow-points, and 3) because some have the insane idea that they will need to shoot completely through a perp and possibly one or two others, in order to have an adequate self-defense round.  

 Anyway, thanks for the enlightenment.

NEWSFLASH: This local story really drives home the point that you NEED 'carry' ammunition that is specifically designed to effectively wound and cause maximum incapacitation:  An elderly man was just killed last night with his own pistol last night, while trying to protect his home from an (apparently unarmed, at first) assailant.  He put two rounds into the perp, who then apparently took the gun from him and shot the elderly man to death.
 The POS who shot him is in the hospital, and expected to live, while the elderly man died at the scene.

TO REITERATE:  YES, it is very important to do the most damage you can do with those first one or two shots, because that's all you may get.  Shot placement is great, but hedge your bets and give yourself a little advantage with modern ammo.  

Unfortunately, it appears that the elderly gentleman who was murdered was a proponent of the obsolete "two-holes" theory (like some midguided souls here).

Had he been using some Golden Sabers or Gold Dots, the story may have ended much differently.  I'm sure he would have thought that the extra 25 bucks was worth it for premium ammo, if he were alive to make the decision over again.

 

[url]http://update.sptimes.com/[/url] - The Story

"Suspect in Largo homicide identified
Largo police today identified the suspect in a fatal shooting as Brandon Ware, 19, of Largo. Ware is accused of shooting Vernon Gilbert, 88, in Gilbert's Largo apartment Wednesday afternoon. Police say the suspect followed Gilbert and his wife, Helen Gilbert, as they returned home from the store. [b]Gilbert shot the suspect, police said, but the suspect apparently got control of Gilbert's gun and shot Gilbert, killing him. Ware is recovering in a hospital from gunshot wounds."[/b]

 The perp survives-damnit.  Let's all hope this Ware creep a speedy recovery...[b][i]STRAIGHT TO FVCKING HELL!!![/b][/i]

Dissipator, how can you say this? The victim was 88 years old and the perp was 19. The same wounds are more likely to kill someone who is 88 than a young 19 year old.

Also, consider this. An 88 year old man must have use a 1911 45ACP with ball ammo, assuming he served in the military. As I said in my earlier post there were plenty of enemy killed in WW1, WW2, Korea, and Vietnam with ball ammo.

So lets say you served in combat with a 1911 and ball ammo, ended up killing some enemy with your pistol and came home alive.

Would you have confidence in that pistol / ammo combination?

I do.

Most will find that a JHP will not substaintially change you bullets impact when you are at (pistol) self-defense range.  For every 300-400 rounds, I shoot about 50 of my self-defense load to reassure me of feeding characteristics . . .  Many people have said it:

If your pistol will not reliably feed most ammo, JHP included, find another gun.

If a JHP fail to expand (clothing, your luck, etc.) you have very similar balistics to a FMJ.  Thus the argument is irrelevant.

Additionally, IF A JHP EXPANDS....WOW.   A wound cavity that can be .45 to .85.  

Finally, If you choose not to use JHP, you never have the possible advantage.  I want to go back to this point: If your pistol will not reliably feed most ammo, JHP included, find another gun.

Jeff

It is about incapcitation.

The "two holes" theory is utter nonsense. You are not going to stop the threat by bleeding your opponent to death.

In America, if a gunshot wound is not instantly fatal, the survival rate is right around 97%.

JHPs stop the threat more quickly. As has been pointed out, a JHP that fails to perform as a JHP will perform as a ball round, anyway.

If you are worried about reliability, buy a modern pistol that is designed to shoot JHPs reliably. Or carry a revolver. You can get a servicable S&W Model 19, cheap, and nobody would consider you poorly armed.

 I knew this would come...and I'm running out of patience for ignoramuses and nimcompoops.[stick]

 What you say is utter nonsense: I've served with a Beretta pistol loaded with NATO 9mm FMJ, as well as a 1911 with ball ammo- and I have NO (zero) confidence in either pistol/ammo combination for defensive use.  This isn't combat, where we have time to wait for the bastard(s) to die in a trench or fighting hole somewhere.  We are talking about a situation where the attacker is inside your home, business, or personal space.  You are comparing apples to oranges with a FMJ's obvious combat role to another VERY different role.
 
The entertaining morons who advocate a geneva or hague convention defense as their reason for not using HP's are completely clueless, and don't even warrant another response- likewise to those who are scared of the non-existent liability issues with HP's. [stick]

[b][i]ECS:[/b][/i] Listen, chief, I tried to explain to you the difference between incapacitating/killing a guy in 5 seconds and incapacitating/killing him in 5 minutes.  You still seem to like the 5 minute, long, slow death.
 
 You still refuse to listen to what I am trying to exlain to your thick headed numbskull.  Could it be that you just don't understand, or are you really that lost?  

Oh well, it's one thing for an 80-something year old man to be ignorant of modern ballistics and defensive ammunition, but anyone who is reading this post has already shown that they are at least modern when it comes to using a computer.  
 
 So, let me make a computer/ammunition analogy for you: Option 1) Say that you connect to AR15.COM using a ten-year old computer and an old 18.8K (that's really slow) modem. OK, if it works for you, that's great, but damn you had better like waiting a long time.  Option 2) You use a reasonably new computer with a fast internet connection, and you don't wait as much. Option 1 is to FMJ, as Option 2 is to a premium HP.  With computers, waiting for a few minutes is just boring...waiting for an attacker to die of slow blood loss will cost you your life- as the unfortunate 88 year old gentleman's experience has shown us.

  See the differnce?  Good, I knew you would. [stick]  Option 1 would "work" eventually, but why the hell would you ever want to go that route when an obvious and easy improvement exists???  

 This elderly man obviously used a round that did not quickly and decisively incapacitate his attacker, and he DIED as a result of it.  

 What's sad is that many other ignorant people will make the same tragic mistake, and use a less than optimal means of defending their life.

 If your damn life is worth defending, then it's sure as shit worth doing it right.  

[b][i]PLEASE, Read Troy's post again and again until it sinks into your thick fricken skull.[/b][/i]  [stick]

Get with it, damnit, you folks can't be this slow.  [stick]    

It would be misplaced confidance. .45ACP FMJ was the best choice out of a poor lot [i]by todays standards[/i]. 9mm and .38spl FMJ were worse and compared to them the .45ACP FMJ was a shining performer. There were always failures like this, just less often than with the other available cartridges.

But .45 Ball doesn't hold a candle to 9mm JHPs if they work even close to how they were designed. From everything I have seen, premium JHPs from all the major makers in .355, .400 and .452 all perform about the same WHEN they work. .45 ACP's advantage [i]today[/i] is that it works better than the smaller rounds when the bullets fail to work. In all fairness to 9mm users 9mm also has a compensating factor to deal with JHP bullet failure-if you have access to high-cap magazines that is- carry more rounds and simply put more into the target.

IMHO though relying on capacity is dangerous because you run up against TIME problems. If you are in a sudden encounter at close range you may not have the time to keep the bad guy from getting to you-though you may be drilling him full of holes the entire time. Or you will down one bad guy but leave his buddy enough time to shoot you before you get to him. Using good JHPs will normally reduce the number of rounds it takes, and using a .45 with JHPs will reduce the number of rounds even further.

Anyone who uses ball ammo for self-defense is IMHO a moron, nuff said.