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Posted: 7/2/2002 3:57:00 PM EDT
Is it illegal to ship a handgun via UPS ground? Or is it UPS company policy not to ship a handgun via Ground? Or is this OK?
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:02:36 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:09:35 PM EDT
So it is not illegal, just against UPS company policy?
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:11:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CassidyGT: So it is not illegal, just against UPS company policy?
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right.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:12:24 PM EDT
UPS likes to think of their rules, policies, and personal feelings as the law. UPS can kiss my rosy red cheeks (sorry, [b]455SD[/b]).
All of the shipping companies changed their internal policies about a year ago to require shipping handguns by Next Day Air service.
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UPS changed theirs at the end of '99. They've been the Postal Service's best advertisement and promotion as far as I'm concerned.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:12:45 PM EDT
FFLs holders can still ship surface. How do UPS, Fed-Ex, etc., get the firearm from the plane to the final destination? Carrier pidgeon? I guess the air freight employees are more trustworthy. IMO, it's just another way to increase profits. Eddie
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:12:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CassidyGT: So it is not illegal, just against UPS company policy?
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It's only against UPS policy to ship a handgun, but not "machined parts". [:)]
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:14:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/2/2002 4:16:20 PM EDT by Max_Mike]
It is UPS policy that you ship overnight. It is Federal law that you have to tell UPS you are shipping a handgun so you have to obey their regulations or break the law. You will break Federal law if you do not tell UPS a handgun is in the package.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:17:37 PM EDT
Thanks guys. I shipped a handgun via ground UPS and it is in transit. The recieving FFL is apparently under the impression that it is illegal and is very upset. Not sure what to do at this point. My buyer is understandably upset as well. Maybe I should just call UPS and ask them what I should do. Or maybe I should tell the other FFL that it is not illegal and if he wants to refuse to accept the package, he is free to do so. I assume the package would come back to me and I could ship another way. Any suggestions?
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:19:03 PM EDT
How do UPS, Fed-Ex, etc., get the firearm from the plane to the final destination? Carrier pidgeon? I guess the air freight employees are more trustworthy. IMO, it's just another way to increase profits.
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Not taking their side, but Next Day Air protects you to some extent. The shorter the time the item is in their system, the smaller the chance of the item getting pilfered or stolen. On one of a kind items, like Class III, preban ARs, and anything else that's not easily replaceable, it's the way to go (I'll still ship any way besides UPS). However, if you're sending back a handgun for minor repairs, etc. the shipping cost is a real bitch.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:19:43 PM EDT
Jeez!! Max Mike I guess I am a felon now. For cryin out loud I never had a problem shipping firearms before. Sometimes UPS asks and sometimes they don't. What the hell should I do now?!?!
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:20:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/2/2002 4:26:14 PM EDT by Max_Mike]
If you did not tell UPS a handgun was in the package when you shipped the package the shipment is illegal. You have broken Federal law. Federal law proscribes you tell the general carrier that a handgun is in any package. I am sorry but you very well may have committed a felony. Do not believe anything posted in these forums on legal matters until you verify it for yourself. If you declared the package as machine parts you broke Federal law. Furthermore you are now at the mercy of the receiving FFL, he could refuse to log the handgun and call the ATF. Sorry to give you bad news but you screwed up.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:23:06 PM EDT
The recieving FFL is apparently under the impression that it is illegal and is very upset. Not sure what to do at this point. My buyer is understandably upset as well.
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They both need to get a clue.
Maybe I should just call UPS and ask them what I should do.
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Big negative, my man.
Or maybe I should tell the other FFL that it is not illegal and if he wants to refuse to accept the package, he is free to do so. I assume the package would come back to me and I could ship another way.
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I'd do something along those lines. Just let him know it was an honest mistake and refusing the package will only delay completion of the transaction. It is NOT, however, illegal.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:23:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/2/2002 4:27:27 PM EDT by Ponyboy]
Originally Posted By Max_Mike: It is Federal law that you have to tell UPS you are shipping a handgun so you have to obey their regulations or break the law.
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I don't think so. I know that you must inform the US postal service if you are shipping a firearm via the mail but I don't think that applies to common carriers. I just searched the BATF website and found no laws pertaining to shipping firearms via common carrier. If you have a cite I would be interested in it.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:24:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/2/2002 4:25:12 PM EDT by CassidyGT]
I am not friggin arguing with you max mike - I am now simply asking for advise as to what the hell I should do now. Now that I have broken one of the thousands of laws that I can't seem to know all at once. Any suggestions? Or should I just turn myself into my nearest fed agency.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:26:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/2/2002 4:30:19 PM EDT by Jim_Dandy]
If you did not tell UPS a handgun was in the package when you shipped the package the shipment is illegal. You have broken Federal law.
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The shipment is NOT illegal. His action is illegal, but the shipment is NOT. And FWIW, I have yet to see the BATF ever charge or investigate anyone for this. Out of the thousands (or millions) of firearms shipped every year, I see very large numbers shipped without declaration. The sheer logistics of following every violation through would be completely impractical. And yes, I've spoken with the BATF about this sort of thing many times. It's just not an issue with them.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:29:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/2/2002 4:37:16 PM EDT by Max_Mike]
You may not ship a handgun via US postal service. (68 gun control act) I am not arguing either, you did break the law. You only have to break one and the Fed. become aware of it and you have. I am sure of this you have to inform the carrier that a handgun is in the package per Federal law and you did not. The shipment is illegal. Also UPS could confiscate the package when you shipped with them you agreed to abide by their rules. I am not trying to break you chops but you have made a mistake. You may get by with or you may not. You have place yourself in jeopardy I agree it is a small matter but it is also the law. I am sorry people do not like hearing this but what the FBI has told them has no relevance in relation to the law and will not help you a bit if they choose to make you an example.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:33:22 PM EDT
You may not ship a handgun via US postal service. (68 gun control act)
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Wrong. FFL holders and certain other exceptions may in fact ship handguns. SInce you're playing the hardass legal eagle, it was not the '68 GCA that established this: U.S. Postal Regulations in 1967.
I am not arguing either, you did break the law. You only have to break one and the Fed. become aware of it and you have. I am sure of this you have to informe the carrier that a handgun is in the package per Federal law and you did not.
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This is a complete non-issue to the BATF, so get over it.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:35:34 PM EDT
Also UPS could confiscate the package when you shipped with them you agreed to abide by their rules. I am not trying to break you chops but you have made a mistake. You may get by with or you may not.
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Uh, no Perry Mason, that's called STEALING. UPS is a publicly traded company and does not enforce or create law. The penalty imposed by them is to ship the package BACK to the shipper and have him start over.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:38:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Ponyboy:
Originally Posted By Max_Mike: It is Federal law that you have to tell UPS you are shipping a handgun so you have to obey their regulations or break the law.
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I don't think so. I know that you must inform the US postal service if you are shipping a firearm via the mail but I don't think that applies to common carriers. I just searched the BATF website and found no laws pertaining to shipping firearms via common carrier. If you have a cite I would be interested in it.
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Here ya go: [url]http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b9[/url] You must declare a firearm to a common carrier.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:40:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/2/2002 4:42:22 PM EDT by Ponyboy]
Here ya go: www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b9 You must declare a firearm to a common carrier.
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Gotcha....I was wrong. Thanks....
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:43:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/2/2002 5:00:26 PM EDT by Max_Mike]
He is not a FFL holder and may not ship a handgun USPS period. You are wrong!!! When you ship with UPS you accept their regulations, he has made a contract with UPS and they may confiscate the shipment if he has violated that contract (and he has). When UPS takes your package you have accepted their terms like it or not. If I am not making myself clear it is part of UPS regs. that UPS may confiscate shipment that violate their regulations and by shipping with UPS he has agreed with UPS’s terms. You can call me names all you like but that will not change the facts.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:44:48 PM EDT
Crap!! What the hell do I do now? This sucks big time!
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:48:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CassidyGT: Crap!! What the hell do I do now? This sucks big time!
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I wouldn't do anything. I'd tell the FFL that it isn't illegal for you to ship the firearm to him via UPS. If he wants to refuse the shipment then let him refuse it. I've shipped several rifles through UPS and never had any problems. Fax him a copy of the BATF FAQ listed in the URL above if he still doesn't believe you.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:51:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/2/2002 4:57:31 PM EDT by Max_Mike]
Look I really am in sympathy with you; it is really easy to mess up because the laws are so complicated. I did not mean to shake you up to bad. But never take any advice on an Internet forum unless you verify it yourself. And never take advice from the ATF over the phone without getting them to verify it in a letter to you, which they will do. The guys here mean well but will they pay your legal bills if their advise is bad. It will most likely be OK but next time be more careful. Good Luck I hate to bring this up but, in some states it is illegal for an individual to ship a handgun to a FFL in that state. To ship a handgun (not rifle) to NY for example the handgun must come from an FFL to an FFL, and before you guys tell me I am wrong that is per the NY State Police and Attorney Generals office.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:52:34 PM EDT
You are wrong!!! When you ship with UPS you accept their regulations, he has made a contract with UPS and they may confiscate the shipment if he has violated that contract (and he has). When UPS take you package you have accepted their terms like it or not. You can call me name all you like but that will not change the pacts [SIC].
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Uh, no, you're one who's wrong. Cite the "regulation," Perry. Be specific.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:54:23 PM EDT
Max- in your quoting of the GCA of 68 you do realize that UPS means United Parcel Service( a privately owned company) and that USPS is the US Postal System( a govt owned agency) As for him breaking the law, hardly, Cassidy, nothing will happen, they can't prove that you did or did not tell them you were shipping a firearm. Remeber the law states they cannot mark in box in anyway to denote a firearm is inside. Just relax and all will be fine
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:54:39 PM EDT
Look I really am in sympathy with you; it is really easy to mess up because the laws are so complicated. I did not mean to shake you up to bad. But never take any advice on an Internet forum unless you verify it yourself. And never take advice from the ATF over the phone without getting them to verify it in a letter to you, which they will do. The guys here mean well but will they pay your legal bills if their advise is bad. It will most likely be OK but next time be more careful. Good Luck
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You are just a pathetic idiot whose only purpose it seems is to give out moronic advice and mangle the English language. QUit while you're ahead, but then again, maybe you've always been a HEAD.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:56:08 PM EDT
Yeah Pony - I think I will try to call him tomorrow and tell him what happened and ask him to either refuse the shipment or accept it - his call. Hopefully he will be reasonable and let my mistake slide. Worst case is a visit from the boys in black at 3am with me getting shot in the chest with an MP5. Oh well, hopefully my kids and wife won't get hurt or killed in the crossfire. It really sucks when people like me, an honest person who made and honest mistake over something pretty trivial compared to many crimes, has to worry about getting shot over it by agants from your own government.' I think I will go weep over the state we have sunken to.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:57:08 PM EDT
Crap!! What the hell do I do now? This sucks big time!
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Apologize to the dealer and if he wants to send back the gun, then fine. Otherwise, don't lose any sleep over it and don't listen to that shitass [b]Max_Mike[/b].
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:59:04 PM EDT
I hate to bring this up but in some states it is illegal for an individual to ship a handgun to a FFL in that state. To ship a handgun (not rifle) to NY for example a handgun must come from an FFL to an FFL, and before you guys tell me this is wrong that is per the NY State Police and Attorney Generals office.
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You are so full of shit it stinks.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 5:03:15 PM EDT
Look UPS protocols are 120 pages long I am not going to wade thought them to satisfy you, be ignorant if you think that will protect you.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 5:06:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/2/2002 5:09:13 PM EDT by Max_Mike]
Jim_Dandy you are a stupid bastard and that is its own reward. It is possible I am wrong but you will always be a stupid rude obnoxious bastard. CassidyGT you can listen or not but I know what I am talking about. But that is my whole point do not believe me without verify that I am right. jimmyjoebob I do know the diference betwenn UPS and USPS.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 5:07:33 PM EDT
Look UPS protocols are 120 pages long I am not going to wade thought them to satisfy you, be ignorant if you think that will protect you.
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Hey, Perry, you claim to know this "regulation." Cite it or shut the fvck up. Out of the umteen posts you've made on this subject, I've been able to deduce two things of you: 1)You have absolutely NO idea about any actual rules and regulations 2)English is your second language I think "The Teletubbies" is on right now, that's about your speed. Let the adults continue the discussion and you go back to your sandbox.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 5:10:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/2/2002 5:12:54 PM EDT by Jim_Dandy]
Jim_Dandy you are a stupid bastard and that is its own reward.
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No wonder my folks were disappointed.
CassidyGT you can listen or not but I know what I am talking about.
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You haven't shown it as of yet and you haven't been able to cite a single specific regulation. Cite something specific, or go away.
jimmyjoebob I do know the diference betwenn UPS and USPS.
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You haven't proved that either. Again, the bottom line is this: it's a NON-issue (do you need me to post the definition of the prefix "non?") to the law enforcement agencies concerned. If [b]CassidyGT[/b] was to get in some trouble, he'll have a short list of whose asses will be kicked, namely YOURS.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 5:15:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/2/2002 5:15:36 PM EDT by LE6920]
Originally Posted By Max_Mike: Jim_Dandy you are a stupid bastard and that is its own reward. It is possible I am wrong but you will always be a stupid rude obnoxious bastard.
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Why are you calling him a stupid bas**** when you say you could be wrong?
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 5:17:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/2/2002 5:28:08 PM EDT by hanko]
Originally Posted By Max_Mike: Look UPS protocols are 120 pages long I am not going to wade thought them to satisfy you, be ignorant if you think that will protect you.
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Einstein...[url]http://www.ups.com/using/services/details/firearms.html[/url]. Wasn't so hard now, was it??? From the UPS tariff (actually, 22 as opposed to 120 pages)[b]Firearms will be transported only between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers and licensed collectors, as defined in the United States Gun Control Act of 1968 (Public Law 90-618, enacted October 22, 1968), as amended by the Firearms Owners' Protection Act (P.L. 99-308, approved May 19, 1986, and a subsequent amendment thereto, P.L. 99-360, approved July 8, 1986) (“the Acts”), law enforcement agencies of the United States or of any department or agency thereof, and law enforcement agencies of any State or any department, agency or political subdivision thereof, [red]and from a person not otherwise prohibited by Federal, State or local law to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer for the sole purpose of repair or customizing, and the repaired firearm or a replacement firearm of the same kind or type on return from the licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer to that person.[/red] The shipper must affix a UPS label, requesting an adult signature upon delivery, to each package containing a firearm. Adult means a person 21 years of age or older. Handguns, as defined by the Acts, will only be accepted for transportation in UPS Next Day Air Services, but will not be accepted for transportation via UPS Letter Centers, Internet Shipping, or in response to a request for a One-Time Pickup or for On-Call Pickup Service. Firearms, including handguns, will not be accepted when presented for shipment at a UPS Authorized Shipping Outlet or a UPS Commercial Counter. Small arms ammunition, as defined in 49 C.F.R. Section 173.59, will be transported only when packaged and labeled in compliance with 49 C.F.R. Section 172.[/b] (emphasis mine). Looks like technically they will not accept a shipment from a non-licensee unless the gun is shipped for repair/replacement and is to be returned to the shipper. Reality is they do it all the time. If a handgun is declared to UPS and they accept it for shipment via ground service, the shipment is not illegal and the shipper has not broken any laws; UPS has simply violated their own in-house rules (the tariff). If shipper fails to declare the weapon, he's violated a federal law, not that the chances of prosecution are especially great. OTOH, if the package is lost, he's screwed as far as getting a claim paid because merchandise is not as described at time of shipment. Personally, I like Fed-Ex. -hanko (not a lawyer, but shipping guns for a lot of years.)
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 5:22:16 PM EDT
He is stupid rude obnoxious bastard. I got tired of him calling me name you think what you want.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 5:24:30 PM EDT
Hanko - I don't know what to think now. I ship firearms via UPS and I have told them it was a firearm sometimes and sometimes not. Never seemed to make a difference to them. I guess they are incompetent and I am uninformed. The blind leading the blind.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 5:28:05 PM EDT
He is stupid rude obnoxious bastard. I got tired of him calling me name [SIC] you think what you want.
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But I'm a [i][b]NICE[/i][/b] rude obnoxious bastard. I don't see in [b]hanko[/b]'s regulations where it says UPS will confiscate guns, do you, [b]Max_Mike[/b]?
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 5:35:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CassidyGT: Hanko - I don't know what to think now. I ship firearms via UPS and I have told them it was a firearm sometimes and sometimes not. Never seemed to make a difference to them. I guess they are incompetent and I am uninformed. The blind leading the blind.
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Cassidy, they generally know nothing. It's the Federales that require the declaration. Speaking of imcompetent, they left a new Sony VCR in a new Sony box on my front porch in TX on a Friday afternoon. We left for a 3-day weekend Friday morning...think we ever got the VCR?? Further, my last 2 shipments of Guatemalan and XM193 ammo were left on the front porch in PRK with zero adult signature. Jim Dandy, not my regulations, just took 'em off the UPS web page & cut & pasted. www.ups.com -hanko
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 5:41:17 PM EDT
After reading the legal issues here... Just cross your fingers and pray that the package isn't lost or stolen.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 5:41:39 PM EDT
Jim Dandy, not my regulations, just took 'em off the UPS web page & cut & pasted. www.ups.com
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I am aware of whose regulations they are. I was only acknowledging who posted them.
OTOH, if the package is lost, he's screwed as far as getting a claim paid because merchandise is not as described at time of shipment.
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Exactly. This can and does happen all of the time. Don't let this happen to you.
Hanko - I don't know what to think now. I ship firearms via UPS and I have told them it was a firearm sometimes and sometimes not. Never seemed to make a difference to them. I guess they are incompetent and I am uninformed. The blind leading the blind.
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Again, don't lose any sleep over this. I would've never brought this up to the recipient if I were you. If questioned, I would've just played it off to UPS stupidity ("They screwed me!!! The told me it was Next Day and charged me $35!!!!!") and left it at that.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 5:42:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By jimmyjoebob: Max- in your quoting of the GCA of 68 you do realize that UPS means United Parcel Service( a privately owned company) and that USPS is the US Postal System( a govt owned agency) Just relax and all will be fine
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The USPS is NOT a government-owned agency. They are PRIVATELY held and not even publicly traded. Anyway, If you shipped it to an FFL, he can only ship it back to an FFL. The OTHER thing...If you ship it to an FFL and want it returned, you better pick it up THE SAME AS HE RECIEVES IT. Otherwise, you will have to fill-out paperwork and do another NICS! At least its that way in MN.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 5:44:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DevilsAdvocate:
Originally Posted By jimmyjoebob: Max- in your quoting of the GCA of 68 you do realize that UPS means United Parcel Service( a privately owned company) and that USPS is the US Postal System( a govt owned agency) Just relax and all will be fine
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The USPS is NOT a government-owned agency. They are PRIVATELY held and not even publicly traded. Anyway, If you shipped it to an FFL, he can only ship it back to an FFL. The OTHER thing...If you ship it to an FFL and want it returned, you better pick it up THE SAME AS HE RECIEVES IT. Otherwise, you will have to fill-out paperwork and do another NICS! At least its that way in MN.
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Meant to say...If the FFL (in MN) has it for more than a day, such as in a pawn-shop scenario, you have to fill out papers and re-do the NICS before you can get it back. Sorry.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 5:47:25 PM EDT
The USPS is NOT a government-owned agency. They are PRIVATELY held and not even publicly traded.
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WTF are you talking about?!!! You and [b]Max_Mike[/b] hanging this evening?
Anyway, If you shipped it to an FFL, he can only ship it back to an FFL.
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Wrong. If the recipient refuses it, or otherwise does not complete the transfer so that it's never in his inventory, then the gun can be returned to the shipper, licensee or not. This is done all of the time.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 5:54:37 PM EDT
The USPS is NOT a government-owned agency. They are PRIVATELY held and not even publicly traded. ok Devil if you say so, btw can you tell me who the CEO is? Better yet who is on the Board of Directors? Tell you what, give me the name of their Investment Broker so that I can setup a Dividend Reinvestment Program, and after I become a millionaire I will buy you a Barret of your choice
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 6:01:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By jimmyjoebob: The USPS is NOT a government-owned agency. They are PRIVATELY held and not even publicly traded. ok Devil if you say so, btw can you tell me who the CEO is? Better yet who is on the Board of Directors? Tell you what, give me the name of their Investment Broker so that I can setup a Dividend Reinvestment Program, and after I become a millionaire I will buy you a Barret of your choice
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Damn...4th of July testiness tonight. [url]http://www.usps.com/history/bog.htm[/url] Looks like Jack Potter is the CEO, COB is Bob Rider. -hanko
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 6:12:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/2/2002 6:23:18 PM EDT by EOD_Guy]
Max_Mike, If you will check the regulation at 27CFR178.31(a), you will see that notification to a carrier that a package contains a firearm is only required when shipping to a nonlicensee. If you are shipping to an FFL holder, notification is not legally required. I have 2 seperate letters from BATF headquarters confirming this and admitting that their answer in the FAQ section of their web site is not accurate. Also, notification when mailing a firearm is indirectly required in that Postal Regulations require you to demonstrate or certify that the firearm you are shipping is unloaded. Anyone can mail a rifle or shotgun but handgun mailings are only allowed between FFL holders.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 6:12:55 PM EDT
Remember that episode of "Cheers" where Cliff Claven stole someones mailorder pistol? Norm got all pissed off,Sam threatened to call the cops,it was bedlum!![;D] [BD] [%|]
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 6:15:50 PM EDT
I'm sorry JimmieJoeBob. Did you say something? That Model 99 Barret is a mighty fine looking rifle.
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