Posted: 12/27/2011 7:36:20 AM EDT
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Anyone have an image of a full 4473 properly filled out? I need it to send to a new FFL who is training himself and his staff? I know it pretty straight forward but he's nervous. |
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Does this help?
(Not sure if this is the current revision but it gives somewhat what you might be looking for?) http://www.thundertek.net/documents/4473.pdf |
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Try talking him into using the BATF's E4473 program. It's almost idiot-proof.
It can be downloaded right off the batf website. 
To go a step further... you could even download it yourself... fill in all the pertinent info and print it out as an example. 
Also... if it helps you any... I have a 4473 layover template at the shop I don't use. Pretty sure it came from the NSSF when I joined. |
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Quoted: That would be great , how do you want to do this?Try talking him into using the BATF's E4473 program. It's almost idiot-proof. It can be downloaded right off the batf website. To go a step further... you could even download it yourself... fill in all the pertinent info and print it out as an example. Also... if it helps you any... I have a 4473 layover template at the shop I don't use. Pretty sure it came from the NSSF when I joined. |
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Does this help? (Not sure if this is the current revision but it gives somewhat what you might be looking for?) http://www.thundertek.net/documents/4473.pdf Ah, that version is 10 years old. I wouldn't use it. |
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this might be useful, from the ATF website:
091511- 4473 webinar.PDF If he is new check here also. http://www.atf.gov/training/firearms/ffl-educational-seminars/ |
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Does this help? (Not sure if this is the current revision but it gives somewhat what you might be looking for?) http://www.thundertek.net/documents/4473.pdf Ah, that version is 10 years old. I wouldn't use it. Oops, nevermind. 
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That would be great , how do you want to do this?
Try talking him into using the BATF's E4473 program. It's almost idiot-proof. It can be downloaded right off the batf website.
To go a step further... you could even download it yourself... fill in all the pertinent info and print it out as an example.
Also... if it helps you any... I have a 4473 layover template at the shop I don't use. Pretty sure it came from the NSSF when I joined. PM me your address and I'll drop it in the mail to you.
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Quoted:
Try talking him into using the BATF's E4473 program. It's almost idiot-proof. It can be downloaded right off the batf website.
To go a step further... you could even download it yourself... fill in all the pertinent info and print it out as an example.
Also... if it helps you any... I have a 4473 layover template at the shop I don't use. Pretty sure it came from the NSSF when I joined. 
The e-version of the 4473 is horrible. I had to fill one out once. It took twice as long to do as the paper version, and at the end they still just printed it out like a normal one anyway. Except now I'm paranoid the computer saved my data on a networked computer. 
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This new FFL needs to get a local BATFE agent in his business asap to walk him through the process. Including maintenance of his bound logs. He's not going to be in business long at this rate. this also can he not read the instructions on the Form. It is so easy a Caveman can do it. |
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Quoted: DoneQuoted: Quoted: That would be great , how do you want to do this?Try talking him into using the BATF's E4473 program. It's almost idiot-proof. It can be downloaded right off the batf website. To go a step further... you could even download it yourself... fill in all the pertinent info and print it out as an example. Also... if it helps you any... I have a 4473 layover template at the shop I don't use. Pretty sure it came from the NSSF when I joined. PM me your address and I'll drop it in the mail to you. |
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Does this help? (Not sure if this is the current revision but it gives somewhat what you might be looking for?) http://www.thundertek.net/documents/4473.pdf Ah, that version is 10 years old. I wouldn't use it. This one is current: www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf __________________________________________________________________ Cross-platform gun database/electronic bound book (and the original thread). «nolite confidere in principibus, in filiis hominum quibus non est salus» |
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This new FFL needs to get a local BATFE agent in his business asap to walk him through the process. Including maintenance of his bound logs. He's not going to be in business long at this rate. +1. They go over the form in detail during your pre-license inspection. When I read the OP, I was like WTF? Who is this guy to be training a new FFL? They also give you tons of information about how to fill out the form. Hell, have you noticed that more than half of the 4473 is detailed instructions? |
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Try talking him into using the BATF's E4473 program. It's almost idiot-proof. . . . Most of my customers have difficulty operating a pen. I'd hate to think what would happen if I sat them in front of a computer terminal. ...and yet you give them a gun? 
__________________________________________________________________ Cross-platform gun database/electronic bound book (and the original thread). «nolite confidere in principibus, in filiis hominum quibus non est salus» |
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Question for SOTs.... 4473 required for NFA and typically no NICS check required for xfer of NFA, yet now they require NICS check be satisfied if NFA xfer is to a Trust or Corp? Any SOTs know anything about this? Thanks 4473's have always been required. An approved F4 to a trust or corp is for an entity and not to an individual person, yet it's a person picking up the gun. So to cover their backsides the FFL/SOT's will call it in. When it comes to the ATF your ass can never be too well covered. |
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Question for SOTs.... 4473 required for NFA and typically no NICS check required for xfer of NFA, yet now they require NICS check be satisfied if NFA xfer is to a Trust or Corp? Any SOTs know anything about this? Thanks 4473's have always been required. An approved F4 to a trust or corp is for an entity and not to an individual person, yet it's a person picking up the gun. So to cover their backsides the FFL/SOT's will call it in. When it comes to the ATF your ass can never be too well covered. Thanks, I understand that FFLs will go above and beyond to protect themselves, but for purposes of my inquiry I am concerned with what ATF requires to xfer the NFA to a corp or trust, if NICS is required for the above scenario can someone please post the info. |
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Try talking him into using the BATF's E4473 program. It's almost idiot-proof. . . . Most of my customers have difficulty operating a pen. I'd hate to think what would happen if I sat them in front of a computer terminal. ...and yet you give them a gun?
__________________________________________________________________ Cross-platform gun database/electronic bound book (and the original thread). «nolite confidere in principibus, in filiis hominum quibus non est salus» I don't recall there being a literacy test for gun ownership. Stupid people have the right to defend themselves, too, you know . . . |
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Try talking him into using the BATF's E4473 program. It's almost idiot-proof. . . . Most of my customers have difficulty operating a pen. I'd hate to think what would happen if I sat them in front of a computer terminal. ...and yet you give them a gun?
__________________________________________________________________ Cross-platform gun database/electronic bound book (and the original thread). «nolite confidere in principibus, in filiis hominum quibus non est salus» I don't recall there being a literacy test for gun ownership. Stupid people have the right to defend themselves, too, you know . . . 
__________________________________________________________________ Cross-platform gun database/electronic bound book (and the original thread). «nolite confidere in principibus, in filiis hominum quibus non est salus» |
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Thanks, I understand that FFLs will go above and beyond to protect themselves, but for purposes of my inquiry I am concerned with what ATF requires to xfer the NFA to a corp or trust, if NICS is required for the above scenario can someone please post the info. http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-9.pdf Section 9.12 Are FFLs/SOTs required to initiate a background check of the transferee under the Brady Law in connection with the transfer of an NFA firearm? No. Although 18 U.S.C. § 922(t) requires an FFL to complete a National Instant Criminal Background Checks System (NICS) check of the firearm recipient prior to completing the transfer, subsection 922(t)(3)(B) removes ATF-approved transfers of NFA firearms from the NICS requirement for individuals. 9.12.1 NFA Transfers to other than individuals. Subsequent to the approval of an application requesting to transfer an NFA firearm to, or on behalf of, a partnership, company, association, trust, estate, or corporation, the authorized person picking up the firearm on behalf of, a partnership, company, association, trust, estate, or corporation from the FFL must complete the Form 4473 with his/her personal information and undergo a NICS check. See also, question P60 in the ATF FAQs. |
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Thanks, I understand that FFLs will go above and beyond to protect themselves, but for purposes of my inquiry I am concerned with what ATF requires to xfer the NFA to a corp or trust, if NICS is required for the above scenario can someone please post the info. http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-9.pdf Section 9.12 Are FFLs/SOTs required to initiate a background check of the transferee under the Brady Law in connection with the transfer of an NFA firearm? No. Although 18 U.S.C. § 922(t) requires an FFL to complete a National Instant Criminal Background Checks System (NICS) check of the firearm recipient prior to completing the transfer, subsection 922(t)(3)(B) removes ATF-approved transfers of NFA firearms from the NICS requirement for individuals. 9.12.1 NFA Transfers to other than individuals. Subsequent to the approval of an application requesting to transfer an NFA firearm to, or on behalf of, a partnership, company, association, trust, estate, or corporation, the authorized person picking up the firearm on behalf of, a partnership, company, association, trust, estate, or corporation from the FFL must complete the Form 4473 with his/her personal information and undergo a NICS check. See also, question P60 in the ATF FAQs. excellent thanks, NOW.... So now we have ATF on the record saying that a NICS check is evidently 'enough' of a background check to transfer an NFA firearm. How about we start allowing SOTs to transfer NFA using NICS in conjunction with the required form that could subsequently be sent to NFA branch for filing. "you passed, here's your can, I'll send this paperowrk and $200 off to ATF first thing tomorrow" While SOTs might then be encouraged to lower their paperwork fees I think the losses would easily be made up by the volume of sales that would likely follow. Lotsa of qualified folks would love to buy a can or another instock NFA item but are turned off by the wait times. Thoughts? |
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Quoted: We jump through the hoops to get our 07 & SOTQuoted: Quoted: Thanks, I understand that FFLs will go above and beyond to protect themselves, but for purposes of my inquiry I am concerned with what ATF requires to xfer the NFA to a corp or trust, if NICS is required for the above scenario can someone please post the info. http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-9.pdf Section 9.12 Are FFLs/SOTs required to initiate a background check of the transferee under the Brady Law in connection with the transfer of an NFA firearm? No. Although 18 U.S.C. § 922(t) requires an FFL to complete a National Instant Criminal Background Checks System (NICS) check of the firearm recipient prior to completing the transfer, subsection 922(t)(3)(B) removes ATF-approved transfers of NFA firearms from the NICS requirement for individuals. 9.12.1 NFA Transfers to other than individuals. Subsequent to the approval of an application requesting to transfer an NFA firearm to, or on behalf of, a partnership, company, association, trust, estate, or corporation, the authorized person picking up the firearm on behalf of, a partnership, company, association, trust, estate, or corporation from the FFL must complete the Form 4473 with his/her personal information and undergo a NICS check. See also, question P60 in the ATF FAQs. excellent thanks, NOW.... So now we have ATF on the record saying that a NICS check is evidently 'enough' of a background check to transfer an NFA firearm. How about we start allowing SOTs to transfer NFA using NICS in conjunction with the required form that could subsequently be sent to NFA branch for filing. "you passed, here's your can, I'll send this paperowrk and $200 off to ATF first thing tomorrow" While SOTs might then be encouraged to lower their paperwork fees I think the losses would easily be made up by the volume of sales that would likely follow. Lotsa of qualified folks would love to buy a can or another instock NFA item but are turned off by the wait times. Thoughts? The examiners basically do what we could do using the background check system. The payment would need to be made at the same time or before but this is viable. It would take the workload of the NFA & increase our business all at the same time. |
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We jump through the hoops to get our 07 & SOT
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Thanks, I understand that FFLs will go above and beyond to protect themselves, but for purposes of my inquiry I am concerned with what ATF requires to xfer the NFA to a corp or trust, if NICS is required for the above scenario can someone please post the info. http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-9.pdf Section 9.12 Are FFLs/SOTs required to initiate a background check of the transferee under the Brady Law in connection with the transfer of an NFA firearm? No. Although 18 U.S.C. § 922(t) requires an FFL to complete a National Instant Criminal Background Checks System (NICS) check of the firearm recipient prior to completing the transfer, subsection 922(t)(3)(B) removes ATF-approved transfers of NFA firearms from the NICS requirement for individuals. 9.12.1 NFA Transfers to other than individuals. Subsequent to the approval of an application requesting to transfer an NFA firearm to, or on behalf of, a partnership, company, association, trust, estate, or corporation, the authorized person picking up the firearm on behalf of, a partnership, company, association, trust, estate, or corporation from the FFL must complete the Form 4473 with his/her personal information and undergo a NICS check. See also, question P60 in the ATF FAQs. excellent thanks, NOW.... So now we have ATF on the record saying that a NICS check is evidently 'enough' of a background check to transfer an NFA firearm. How about we start allowing SOTs to transfer NFA using NICS in conjunction with the required form that could subsequently be sent to NFA branch for filing. "you passed, here's your can, I'll send this paperowrk and $200 off to ATF first thing tomorrow" While SOTs might then be encouraged to lower their paperwork fees I think the losses would easily be made up by the volume of sales that would likely follow. Lotsa of qualified folks would love to buy a can or another instock NFA item but are turned off by the wait times. Thoughts? The examiners basically do what we could do using the background check system. The payment would need to be made at the same time or before but this is viable. It would take the workload of the NFA & increase our business all at the same time. agreed, and IMO the climate in congress is as perfect for this as it's ever been. I feel a workable process could be presented to a sympathetic Rep and they could draft a bill. When other Reps push back and say the ATF would never reccomend NICS for NFA xfrs we just point to the above and say "they already do..." 
We would not likely get it all the way thru in the upcoming session but we can get things started now for a future victory. |
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Try talking him into using the BATF's E4473 program. It's almost idiot-proof. It can be downloaded right off the batf website.
To go a step further... you could even download it yourself... fill in all the pertinent info and print it out as an example.
Also... if it helps you any... I have a 4473 layover template at the shop I don't use. Pretty sure it came from the NSSF when I joined.
The e-version of the 4473 is horrible. I had to fill one out once. It took twice as long to do as the paper version, and at the end they still just printed it out like a normal one anyway. Except now I'm paranoid the computer saved my data on a networked computer. You are joking right ? 
The e4473 is idiot-proof and sloppy-handwriting-proof. I wouldn't do it any other way.
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You are joking right ?
The e4473 is idiot-proof and sloppy-handwriting-proof. I wouldn't do it any other way. Do your customers operate the computer to fill in the blanks, or do you do it for them in a question/answer/interview style? If you enter the data, how does that square with the BATFE requirement that the actual customer fill out the (paper) form? Also, if you have them enter the data, do you have a dedicated computer for the purpose or do you just turn your screen around and hand them a keyboard. What do you do about the old coots who have never operated a computer before? Inquiring minds want to know. |
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You are joking right ?
The e4473 is idiot-proof and sloppy-handwriting-proof. I wouldn't do it any other way. Do your customers operate the computer to fill in the blanks, or do you do it for them in a question/answer/interview style? If you enter the data, how does that square with the BATFE requirement that the actual customer fill out the (paper) form? Also, if you have them enter the data, do you have a dedicated computer for the purpose or do you just turn your screen around and hand them a keyboard. What do you do about the old coots who have never operated a computer before? Inquiring minds want to know. I'd be interested in this as well. I used the e4473 a couple of times and wasn't all that impressed. I can fill out a 4473 in a legible manner in a minute or two. The program took a bit longer and I'm comfortable with compures and can type fast. I can see how an FFL would like it though. |
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Try talking him into using the BATF's E4473 program. It's almost idiot-proof. It can be downloaded right off the batf website.
To go a step further... you could even download it yourself... fill in all the pertinent info and print it out as an example.
Also... if it helps you any... I have a 4473 layover template at the shop I don't use. Pretty sure it came from the NSSF when I joined.
The e-version of the 4473 is horrible. I had to fill one out once. It took twice as long to do as the paper version, and at the end they still just printed it out like a normal one anyway. Except now I'm paranoid the computer saved my data on a networked computer. You are joking right ?
The e4473 is idiot-proof and sloppy-handwriting-proof. I wouldn't do it any other way. Not even close. I can fill out a 4473 legibily in like 30 seconds, and there's no lingering suspicion that the FFL/computer then transmits that data directly to the ATF. Hey, if it's stored on a local hard drive on a computer connected to the internet...well, it's just a matter of time before someone cracks it. That's assuming it doesn't quietly transmit it's data to the ATF on the sly to begin with. The e-4473 might be nice for the ATF, but it's nowhere near as nice as the buyer, and not quite as nice for the local FFL holder...assuming said FFL holder actually believes in firearm owner rights and doesn't want to even risk the accidental release of 4473 data. Call me paranoid if you want, but I really do not like electronic 4473s. |
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The ATF sent out a letter last week (dated Dec 22nd I think) to say they are phasing in a new 4473 which removes residency requirements for non-immigrant aliens (Q20a or Q20c I think). Thus there will be a new form in a matter of weeks. Is that what it was about? I thought it was about the residency requirement for Green Card aliens (not non-immigrant aliens). What the hell is a non-immigrant alien anyway? Is that a diplomat? A tourist? Everybody that fills out that form for the first time goes "WTF?" when they get to that question. I actually had my first alien purchaser a couple of weeks ago (I've only been an FFL for a year). I had to study up before I did the transfer. |
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Try talking him into using the BATF's E4473 program. It's almost idiot-proof. It can be downloaded right off the batf website.
To go a step further... you could even download it yourself... fill in all the pertinent info and print it out as an example.
Also... if it helps you any... I have a 4473 layover template at the shop I don't use. Pretty sure it came from the NSSF when I joined.
The e-version of the 4473 is horrible. I had to fill one out once. It took twice as long to do as the paper version, and at the end they still just printed it out like a normal one anyway. Except now I'm paranoid the computer saved my data on a networked computer. You are joking right ?
The e4473 is idiot-proof and sloppy-handwriting-proof. I wouldn't do it any other way. Not even close. I can fill out a 4473 legibily in like 30 seconds, and there's no lingering suspicion that the FFL/computer then transmits that data directly to the ATF. Hey, if it's stored on a local hard drive on a computer connected to the internet...well, it's just a matter of time before someone cracks it. That's assuming it doesn't quietly transmit it's data to the ATF on the sly to begin with. The e-4473 might be nice for the ATF, but it's nowhere near as nice as the buyer, and not quite as nice for the local FFL holder...assuming said FFL holder actually believes in firearm owner rights and doesn't want to even risk the accidental release of 4473 data. Call me paranoid if you want, but I really do not like electronic 4473s. You are paranoid.
My customers never had a problem with the electronic 4473. Some of the older folks needed a little help, but I always walk them through it. I had a dedicated PC on the front counter with a wireless keyboard and mouse. It was real easy to just spin the keyboard around for the customer to do their part. They point, click and key in the required info, then spin the keyboard back around for me to do my part. Once complete, I click "Print" and a nice, neat, legible form spits out of the printer 15 seconds later. They sign and date it and are done. The younger people would whiz right through it faster than I could follow them. I made a point to dedicate a sole PC to this task so that it WOULDN'T be connected to the internet. This guaranteed info security and eliminated any risk of virus. The only thing the ATF sees during a compliance inspection is a nice clean, neat and legible batch of 4473's in the filing cabinet. I've currently got 790 of them filed away. I also do all my NFA paperwork via electronic (PDF) forms too. It's much neater and cleaner.
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Try talking him into using the BATF's E4473 program. It's almost idiot-proof. It can be downloaded right off the batf website.
To go a step further... you could even download it yourself... fill in all the pertinent info and print it out as an example.
Also... if it helps you any... I have a 4473 layover template at the shop I don't use. Pretty sure it came from the NSSF when I joined.
The e-version of the 4473 is horrible. I had to fill one out once. It took twice as long to do as the paper version, and at the end they still just printed it out like a normal one anyway. Except now I'm paranoid the computer saved my data on a networked computer. You are joking right ?
The e4473 is idiot-proof and sloppy-handwriting-proof. I wouldn't do it any other way. Not even close. I can fill out a 4473 legibily in like 30 seconds, and there's no lingering suspicion that the FFL/computer then transmits that data directly to the ATF. Hey, if it's stored on a local hard drive on a computer connected to the internet...well, it's just a matter of time before someone cracks it. That's assuming it doesn't quietly transmit it's data to the ATF on the sly to begin with. The e-4473 might be nice for the ATF, but it's nowhere near as nice as the buyer, and not quite as nice for the local FFL holder...assuming said FFL holder actually believes in firearm owner rights and doesn't want to even risk the accidental release of 4473 data. Call me paranoid if you want, but I really do not like electronic 4473s. Just because I was curious, I downloaded the application, installed, then unplugged my computer from the intarwebs, and... It worked fine. No lingering suspicion. However, that program kinda sucks. A regular PDF form would almost be better. __________________________________________________________________ Cross-platform gun database/electronic bound book (v1.2) (and the original thread). «nolite confidere in principibus, in filiis hominum quibus non est salus» |