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Posted: 4/19/2002 7:28:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/19/2002 7:39:04 AM EDT by garandman]
The following are the advertised reasons why we should support Israel –
1. Israel is our ally. 2. Israel has voted with us in the UN. 3. Israel is the ONLY democracy in the area. 4. Israel is in a fight for their very survival. It’s our moral duty to support them. 5. We share a common enemy with Israel. 6. Helping Israel fight oppression is helping ourselves 7. Israel is the victim here. 8. Israels opposition is morally repugnant. 9. A thousand other variations of these themes.
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Now, take those reasons above, and remove the word “Israel” and insert the words “Republic of Korea.” OR EVEN "Taiwan." Then, compare the non-stop, incessant ranting of how we should support Israel, with the almost complete and total silence about the republic of Korea AND Taiwan and their mortal enemys (as well as ours) China and North Korea. An almost exact parallel as to the nature of our ally, (Israel compared to RoK or Taiwan) yet an IMMENSE difference in the foreign policy the Israel supporters desire. If the discussion is about ANY nation OTHER than Israel, we all hold to a non-interventionist, non foreign welfare, sovereignty of the USA, keep our tax dollars at home, show-me-where-the-Constitution- says- we can- do- that, less gov’t, America first policy. Throw Israel in the mix, and some of us turn into soccer moms. Hypocrisy. Plain and simple. Or at the very least IMMENSE bias. A bias SO obvious, it discredits those who hold it. My suspicion? It all goes back to alleged requirement of Scripture to support Israel, and the misunderstanding of who "Israel" really is, according to the Scripture. Yet FEW are willing to discuss that with me. And the few who do REFUSE to discuss the Scriptures I present.
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 7:30:11 AM EDT
Testify, g-man, testify!
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 7:34:03 AM EDT
GAD-ZUKES garandaman!! You're gonna get shot up on this one. [B)] BTW, I agree with you. Jim
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 7:39:56 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 7:41:50 AM EDT
Somebody say, "AMEN!" [:D] A few differences between Israel and South Korea (ROK): 1) South Korea is not the only democracy in its region. There's this other nearby country called "Japan" -- perhaps you've heard of it? [;)] 2) China has not expressed any interest in killing/expelling all the South Koreans. 3) The two Koreas are likely to re-unify peacefully as the hardliners in North Korea grow isolated and discredited. Nevertheless, Garandman, I do admire your consistency in denouncing American military support of South Korea just as frequently and vociferously as you denounce American military support of Israel. [;D]
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 7:56:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Duke_of_Lawnchair: BTW, I agree with you. Jim
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Agreed. I'm gonna leave a little room for the opposition - what does Israel being a democracy have to do with anything ?
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 7:58:29 AM EDT
Which is why I edited my thread opener to include Taiwan.
by eswanson: Actually, I seem to recall that we got involved in a real live shooting war defending South Korea, so maybe your example isn't so great.
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And we got our collective asses kicked. Your post MAKES my point. I DO NOT wish to go down the same road with israel as we did in Korea.
by Renamed: Nevertheless, Garandman, I do admire your consistency in denouncing American military support of South Korea just as frequently and vociferously as you denounce American military support of Israel
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Actually, I have denounced it. I have consistently advocated a semi-isolationist foreign policy. And when the Isreal butt-kissers are as incessant about sending $$$ and troops to Korea or Taiwan as they are about Israel, then you'll get the "frequency and vociferousness" you desire.
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 8:05:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 5subslr5: I'm gonna leave a little room for the opposition - what does Israel being a democracy have to do with anything ?
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I actually disagree that Israel is a "democracy" in the United States of America sense of the word. My personal family experience says otherwise. Here in the USA, I can preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ on the street corners if I desire. To do so in Israel (according to my sister-in-law, who went there) you risk receiving jail time. Some democracy, Israel. [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 8:06:16 AM EDT
We ain't supporting Israel because they are a good ally, we support them because they intimidate and own our congress critters.
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 8:12:59 AM EDT
(Am 0 tramp) Is absolutely right. Can you say, "Jewish lobby." Our country with all it's B.S. is still the best. However, when we have folks calling themselves Mexican Americans or in this example Jewish Americans. One has to wonder.... Are they Jews (Israelis) that happen to live in America or Americans that happen to be Jewish. (Of that faith and culture)
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 8:35:17 AM EDT
You forgot [b]10. Isreal is our forward defense for the oil rich mid-east.[/b] Personally, I too am an "isolationist". I prefer to call it "America First". But, that would mean many changes, including the expulsion of all foreign nationals........
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 8:51:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/19/2002 8:53:39 AM EDT by Renamed]
I DO NOT wish to go down the same road with israel as we did in Korea.
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Does that mean that you consider America's policy of containment during the Cold War a mistake? So we should have let the communists overrun South Korea?
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 10:00:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Renamed:
I DO NOT wish to go down the same road with israel as we did in Korea.
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Does that mean that you consider America's policy of containment during the Cold War a mistake? ?
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ABSOLUTELY. We didn't "contain" anything. We got our butts kicked in Korea and in 'Nam. Both ventures into Asia were TOTAL failures. Conservatives have ALWAYS said communism would collapse under its own financial / socio-economic weight. We didn't need to fight those wars. But this is WAY off topic. If you wish to persue this line of thouight, please start a new thread. What I want to know is.... [b] WHERE'S ETH IN ALL THIS???? WHATSMATTA, ERIC, CHECKING WITH SHARONE HOW TO HANDLE THIS ONE?????[/B] [}:D] Never mind. I know you'll give some flippant, irrelevant response anyway. Oh, how inconvenient the facts can be.....
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 10:07:06 AM EDT
Once again, glad "I" didn't start this thread.
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 10:15:06 AM EDT
Agreed, garandman, subsailor, etc. Funny though...whenever you bring up how the Jewish lobby has a [b]huge[/b] influence on the mdeia and legiscritters, you're called prejudiced, racist, etc.
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 10:18:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Am-O-Tramp: We ain't supporting Israel because they are a good ally, we support them because they intimidate and own our congress critters.
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Absolutely. Their subtle lobbying efforts make the legacy of the NRA lobby look anemic. Besides, the defense contractors also lobby for support of Israel because most of the U.S. aid the taxpayers send over there ends up in the pockets of the U.S. defense contractors. [(:|)]
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 10:18:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/19/2002 10:20:50 AM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 10:18:28 AM EDT
Garandman, you forgot the real reasons why people feel the US should back up Jewrael; All Muslims are terrorist and must die for Sept 11th just like all Germans are nazis and must die for the holocaust. And killing civilians is a bad thing when Palestinians do it but when the US bombed civilians with nukes in Japan, killed innocent women and children in Dresden and napalmed villages of civies in Nam those where all military targets. [whacko][whacko][whacko]
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 10:19:28 AM EDT
Post from garandman -
WHERE'S ETH IN ALL THIS???? WHATSMATTA, ERIC, CHECKING WITH SHARONE HOW TO HANDLE THIS ONE?????
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No, I'm just miffed you started an Israeli thread without checking with me first.[:D] You are going to be leading in the number of Israel-Israeli post around here pretty soon. And you tried to make us think you didn't particularly like such threads! Shame on you boy! You [b]love[/b] them! You even jumped into my 'anti-war' thread claiming that it was, in reality, an 'Israeli' thread! Jeepers, check under your bed tonight for Israelis! Eric The(Hell,YouMightEvenFindSomeRelevantFacts!)H­un[>]:)]
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 10:23:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Jeepers, check under your bed tonight for Israelis! Eric The(Hell,YouMightEvenFindSomeRelevantFacts!)H­un[>]:)]
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I knew you'd show up. It was just a matter of time. [;)] [(:|)]
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 10:28:48 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 10:38:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Garandman: And we got our collective asses kicked. Your post MAKES my point. I DO NOT wish to go down the same road with israel as we did in Korea.
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Correct me if I'm wrong (what am I saying, I'm sure somebody will) but weren't we just kicking N Korean butts all over the Korean penisula up until the Chinese came flooding acroos the border to help them?
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 10:44:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/19/2002 12:01:40 PM EDT by garandman]
Originally Posted By raf: Were the situation to change, with ROK and Taiwan engaged in hostilities, I would expect their respective supporters to speak up loudly as well.
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I love this answer. It is SOOO telling. You say that "their respective supporters" would "speak up loudly." (Of course, even a cursory reading of current events would tell you that, based on the rhetoric alone, war could erupt at ANY moment. But [some peoples ]"All Israel, ALL the Time" mindset has blinded [them ]to anything else going on in the world) But as I have shown, if [ a person] is standing on principle, and TRULY beleive the 8 reasons I listed above for support of Israel, [they] MUST also be LOUDLY in support of RoK and Taiwan, as [they]are of Israel, IF (and that is a HUGE "if") [they] are standing on principles, like the 8 named above. Since [some] hold to the principles for Israel, and NOT with the other nations, who match up to Israel in their similarities as our allies to about a 98% match, THAT PROVES ******SOMETHING ELSE******* and NOT principle is driving [their] motivations. That PROVES the 8 reasons above are nothing more than camoflauge for OTHER motives. My suspicious mind IMMEDIATELY goes to that dual-citizenship thing, and from there, its a real short walk to divided loyalty, and then to wondering who [they]REALLY would support in a "shooting war" between the US and israel, if one ever occurred. In short, [they've] got a PR problem. ETH - Thanks for tuning in. I said earlier you would NOT address my salient points, and you WOULD post a flippant, irrelevant response. I gues I owe you a "thank you" for proving me right. ***** Edits in brackets made for clarity.*****
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 10:57:57 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 11:08:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: I actually disagree that Israel is a "democracy" in the United States of America sense of the word. My personal family experience says otherwise. Here in the USA, I can preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ on the street corners if I desire. To do so in Israel (according to my sister-in-law, who went there) you risk receiving jail time. Some democracy, Israel. [rolleyes]
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And Great Britain is not a democracy as the US is either. When the IRA was blowing up bombs on a regular basis in northern Ireland, Britain would lock Irish "terrorists" up without trial. No writ of habeus corpus. No written constitution to get in the way. No problem. On the other hand, in NONE of these countries are you likely to have your tongue cut off, or a hand removed or your eyes put out. And you get to vote in all three. That's a few steps better than Saudi Arabia, our GOOD FRIENDS. I might mention that the US in the last few months has done thing I believe are wrong as well, including playing the Shell Game with "terrorists" as the Pea. Lock 'em up and shuffle 'em from site to site while the lawyer tries to figure out where they are. Wouldn't want you to be biased or hypocritcal, now...
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 11:10:02 AM EDT
Hello g-man...let me take a swing and cut down a few trees....you are mistaking the publicly given reasons for government as if they were reality. Israel is supported because of power. We do not have a strong influence in this country by Micronesia...Bora Borans don't own the newspapers or studios or networks. The gov't goes with the power..why else make mexican illegals citizens? Israel represents a big slice of the pie to people here and a large group of voters and they can always swing the guilt card.."remember the Holocaust". Everything boils down to "show me the money".
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 11:11:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By raf: I honestly do NOT know what you're talking about. Perhaps you are confusing me with another person.
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Perhaps I am. But I seem to remember you being a rabidly pro-Israel as others here, albeit not as vocal. THAT is why in my initial response to you, in NUMEROUS places I put parentheses around "you" to indicate I was more addressing myself to the stereotypical Israel supporter, not specifically to "raf."
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 11:22:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By raf: Your unfounded slurs against the United States have been noted. Were they alive, I'm sure Adolf Hitler, Premier Tojo, and Chairman Ho Chi Minh would thank you for your support.
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I am sure Stalin would like to thank all Americans for joining his side in WW2 allowing him to continue killing off MILLIONS more people then Adolf Hitler and never having to confront any tribunal or pay for his crimes. And I would like to thank the American oil industry for the increased action in Vietnam which not only cost a nation its son's and fathers, but led to the death of thousands of innocent Vietnamese civilians. [marines]
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 11:23:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Tinker: And Great Britain is not a democracy as the US is either.
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I think Clinton was the master of excusing wrongdoing by saying "They did it too." (said in your best whiny schoolgirl voice) What Great Britain does or does not do is IRRELEVANT and by no means exculpatory to Israel's restriction of free speech and religion, PROVING they are NOT a democracy, despite the Israel supporters false claims that they are. Try to focus, and not pull the Clinton "They did it too" crap to get the discussion out of focus, which is support of Israel.
On the other hand, in NONE of these countries are you likely to have your tongue cut off, or a hand removed or your eyes put out. And you get to vote in all three. That's a few steps better than Saudi Arabia, our GOOD FRIENDS. Wouldn't want you to be biased or hypocritcal, now...
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Thanks for your concern. Please show me [b]ANYWHERE [/b] anywhere at all, I have indicated I'm favorable to Saudi Arabia, or think they should be our ally. IN THIS VERY THREAD, I've indicated I favor more of a semi-isolationist / US sovereignty policy. AS the old saying goes, I perceive you reading and comprehension skills are "not worth a [b]tinker's[/b] damn." [}:D][}:D][}:D][}:D][}:D][}:D][}:D][}:D][}:D]
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 11:24:32 AM EDT
Garandman, you forgot the real reasons why people feel the US should back up Jewrael; All Muslims are terrorist and must die for Sept 11th just like all Germans are nazis and must die for the holocaust. And killing civilians is a bad thing when Palestinians do it but when the US bombed civilians with nukes in Japan, killed innocent women and children in Dresden and napalmed villages of civies in Nam those where all military targets.
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I'm basically a lurker but I'll jump in here. Sorry, but I'm not buying into the myth of equivalency. In ww2 the Japanese and the Germans were the BAD guys and WE were the GOOD guys. I apologize if I oversimplify it, but than again isn't it simple enough? If you can't see that then you need to pull your head out. Terrorists often deliberately target material and civilians who have no military value. Legit military forces usually target non-civilians (other military forces, terrorists, material, etc), however it is the tragedy of war that innocent civs die in war. Sorry, thats just how it is. The bombing of Dresden was brutal, but it DID have a military strategy. By targeting German cities, the Nazi's were forced even further into the defensive position. Every 88mm battery (dreaded and feared by the Americans and Russians), the crew to fire them, armorers to maintain them, ordnance, and issue small arms they all carried were called back from the front lines and into the German interior. Every less 88mm firing on allied troops made a difference. As far as the 'bomb' goes, it saved far more Japanese lives than it destroyed, and had it not been dropped I doubt my grandfather (as well as many of our fathers/grandfathers)would have survived the war - and who knows how many of us wouldn't be here if not for that. Also, you pretty much lost all credibility from the start when you referred to Israel as 'Jewreal'. Why even bother hiding behind spin? Your take has nothing to do with reason - you just don't like jews.
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 11:27:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: We didn't "contain" anything. We got our butts kicked in Korea and in 'Nam. Both ventures into Asia were TOTAL failures.
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actually, i have to disagree here. while we didnt get what we wanted in korea and vietnam, we got what we needed. we saved the "republic" of korea, which for all it's faults, was noticeably better than the aggressors. and while we did not save vietnam, we held the line there for 10 years (at a high price), buying time for economic factors to push the USSR over the edge. irrespective of your main point, while we did not get all we wanted, we did not "get our collective asses kicked". at the least we gave as good as we got. IMO.
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 11:30:32 AM EDT
As far as the 'bomb' goes, it saved far more Japanese lives than it destroyed, and had it not been dropped I doubt my grandfather (as well as many of our fathers/grandfathers)would have survived the war - and who knows how many of us wouldn't be here if not for that.----just to inject a historical note....why does everyone forget that fat man and little boy killed drastically fewer people than had been killed by continous bombing raids before the big drop?
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 11:35:11 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 11:36:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By hound: Hello g-man...let me take a swing and cut down a few trees....you are mistaking the publicly given reasons for government as if they were reality. Israel is supported because of power. Everything boils down to "show me the money".
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I agree. As stated above, if Points 1-8 (above) were a matter of principle, you could take "Israel" out of Points 1-8, and insert either "Taiwan" or "RoK" and the Israel supporters SHOULD be just as loud in support of RoK or Taiwan as they are Israel. THEY ARE **** NOT ****** Ipso facto, it ain't about principle. OTHER motivations are at play. For the "power brokers" I agree with your assessment. Supporting israel has NOTHING to do with altruistic motives - for them it has to do with the accumulation of wealth and power. For the "man on the street" (which is more typical of the Israel supporter found here) I am loathe to assign motivations. I suspect it has to do with POOR interpretation of Scripture. Beyond that, I'm scared to imagine what their motivations might be.
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 11:42:17 AM EDT
Hello g...well we got the power brokers out of the way---we agree on that one...now on to your man on the streets....propaganda...to keep the power tell a lie often enough and people believe it....Israel is our friend---ain't---Israel is our hooker. Ya stop paying her and she ain't your friend.
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 11:47:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/19/2002 11:52:58 AM EDT by garandman]
Originally Posted By raf: You could have been more clear in separating the two statements.
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Conceeded. Gladly.
As for being a "rabid" pro-Israel supporter, again, I ask for you to either provide proof, or desist from so labeling me.
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I will begin doing so now, by editing my initial post to you (with disclaimer)
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 11:48:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/19/2002 11:49:21 AM EDT by Scarecrow]
Originally Posted By SliPkNoT: I'm basically a lurker but I'll jump in here. Sorry, but I'm not buying into the myth of equivalency. In ww2 the Japanese and the Germans were the BAD guys and WE were the GOOD guys. I apologize if I oversimplify it, but than again isn't it simple enough? If you can't see that then you need to pull your head out. Terrorists often deliberately target material and civilians who have no military value. Legit military forces usually target non-civilians (other military forces, terrorists, material, etc), however it is the tragedy of war that innocent civs die in war. Sorry, thats just how it is.
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No, its not that simple. Actually you guys where hardly the "good guys" to those who lost the war. The history books are written by the conquerors. I bet at school they didn't teach you about the fact that there where a lot of high ranking Nazi's that where half Jew, and yet they weren't in the camps. Did they teach you in school that most of the funding for the Nazis in WW2 coming from us western countries was actually coming from Jews? Didn't think so. It is the tragedy of war that innocent Jews die in this war. Sorry, that's just how it is.
The bombing of Dresden was brutal, but it DID have a military strategy. By targeting German cities, the Nazi's were forced even further into the defensive position. Every 88mm battery (dreaded and feared by the Americans and Russians), the crew to fire them, armorers to maintain them, ordnance, and issue small arms they all carried were called back from the front lines and into the German interior. Every less 88mm firing on allied troops made a difference.
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The terrorist attacks are serving to kill Jews who's tax dollars pay for tanks that run over their houses and bullets that kill their kids. By your standards that's alright.
As far as the 'bomb' goes, it saved far more Japanese lives than it destroyed, and had it not been dropped I doubt my grandfather (as well as many of our fathers/grandfathers)would have survived the war - and who knows how many of us wouldn't be here if not for that.
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How do you know how many lives where saved at the price of so many women and children? How do you know that the fallout radiation dint sterilize many other people to the point where they could no longer reproduce. How many kids would have had to die that day for it to have been too high a cost for the end of that war? What's this number of saved lives you talk about?
Also, you pretty much lost all credibility from the start when you referred to Israel as 'Jewreal'. Why even bother hiding behind spin? Your take has nothing to do with reason - you just don't like jews.
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Credibility? I don't need any. See people on this board already have opinions on this topic that can't be changed no matter how credible I am. Propaganda has made your ignorance to the reality of the situation impervious to the facts. The only reason I make my post so shocking is because if I wasn't, it would make even less of a impact on the members of this board if I showed everyone both sides equally and reminded them that both Palestine and Israel have the right to exist and neither will simply go away.
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 11:50:42 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 11:57:06 AM EDT
woops Raf---did ya really mean to write what you wrote? I am not saying that the man who hands a madman a gun is the one responsible, but he does share some of the burden....USSR---trucks,food,money,arms,soldiers,planes,etc. Viet Nam---big business...the name of the game is oil buddy and a LOT of stuff has been written about faked actions and corporate involvement..
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 12:02:31 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 12:03:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/19/2002 12:07:13 PM EDT by Tinker]
Originally Posted By garandman: I think Clinton was the master of excusing wrongdoing by saying "They did it too." (said in your best whiny schoolgirl voice)
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It has nothing whatsoever to do with "they did it too". It simply demonstrates the fallacy of your comment regarding Israel not being a democracy. Great Britain fails to be a democracy under your standard, as does the US. Therefore your STANDARD is wrong. Perhaps that's too complex for you to figure out? Or maybe you prefer to argue like some liberal, by distorting arguments, instead of aproaching them honestly?
On the other hand, in NONE of these countries are you likely to have your tongue cut off, or a hand removed or your eyes put out. And you get to vote in all three. That's a few steps better than Saudi Arabia, our GOOD FRIENDS. Wouldn't want you to be biased or hypocritcal, now...
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Originally Posted By garandman: IThanks for your concern. Please show me [b]ANYWHERE [/b] anywhere at all, I have indicated I'm favorable to Saudi Arabia, or think they should be our ally. AS the old saying goes, I perceive you reading and comprehension skills are "not worth a [b]tinker's[/b] damn."
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Nor did I accuse you of supporting Saudi Arabia. "The guilty flee where no man pursueth." Maybe you should examine YOUR reading comprehension skills? Israel has a strict law on religious speech, and they enforce it not only against Christians but the Moslems as well, and MOST CERTAINLY against their own citizens. Where religion is a proximate cause for war, wandering around shooting off your mouth on the subject is tantamount to setting fire to a hotel in the middle of the night. So, by YOUR standards their reluctance to allow just any doofus to start a war implies they are not democratic?
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 12:11:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 12:15:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By hound: Hello g...well we got the power brokers out of the way---we agree on that one...now on to your man on the streets....propaganda...to keep the power tell a lie often enough and people believe it....
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I can agree with that assessment. What the unsaved world does / beleives is their business. But here's what bugs me about Chrsitians - 1. My beleif is that their love of israel is based on (willfully??) poor interpretation of Scripture. 2. According to those scriptures, we Christians are SUPPOSED to have God on our side to keep us from beleiving "the lie." Again, I circle back to poor exegesis of Scripture as being the motivation to swallow the lie.
Israel is our hooker. Ya stop paying her and she ain't your friend.
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Spot on. One amendment - in this case, the hooker is pulling the "johns" strings.
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 12:28:43 PM EDT
No, its not that simple. Actually you guys where hardly the "good guys" to those who lost the war.
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You're very ignorant. We rebuilt Germany and Japan - every hear of the Marshall Plan? We were airlifting material, food, etc into Germany 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. It was a key goal not to have another repeat of the Treaty of Versailles (sp) which would leave Germany poor and aggressive. As for Japan - it was the US and Gen. MacArthur who brought democracy, women's rights, economic rebuilding, etc to them. In fact, we did it SO well that both Germany AND Japan are now, and have been, MAJOR economic rivals to the US. Yes, we were very much the "good guys" to those who lost the war! Russia on the other hand...
How do you know that the fallout radiation dint sterilize many other people to the point where they could no longer reproduce.
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Judging from the last Japanese census, they seem to be reproducing quite well.
How do you know how many lives where saved at the price of so many women and children?
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It was the men, women, AND children whose lives were saved by the bomb. A mainland assault of Japan would killed millions on both sides.
Did they teach you in school that most of the funding for the Nazis in WW2 coming from us western countries was actually coming from Jews?
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No, but my school didn't teach bunker bunny, conspiracy geek, revisionist history written by guys in their northern Idaho basements either. And as far as some Nazi's being part Jewish, I believe it was Hermann Goering who said, "I will decide who is a Jew and who is not."
The only reason I make my post so shocking is because if I wasn't, it would make even less of a impact on the members of this board if I showed everyone both sides equally and reminded them that both Palestine and Israel have the right to exist and neither will simply go away.
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So basically you're saying that your posts are so void of any real content that you use shock value to compensate? If you want to remind everyone that both sides have a right to exist than why not just say it in the first place. This isn't a popularity contest.
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 12:31:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Tinker: Israel has a strict law on religious speech, and they enforce it not only against Christians but the Moslems as well, and MOST CERTAINLY against their own citizens.
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then we are in agreement that Israel is NOT a democracy. And that the israel supporters are distorting the truth in saying that it is. My standard, for the purpsoes of this dicussion , as to what constitutes a democracy is the Israel supporters standard (i.e. America = democracy) And as you have poingnantly illustrated, Israel is NOTHING like the USA with regard to basic freedoms. Meanwhile, I'll disagree with your assessment that speaking of another religion in Israel is tantamount to starting a war, but let's assume you are right, for the sake of argument. then the israelis are NO better that their political- religious neighbors who start jihad over religion, and the Isrealis need to at least move into the 18th century, where we established our BOR. It take TWO to make a religious war. But again, if you are right about religious ramblings causing war in Israel, then they are NO Democracy, and the Israel supporters should cease and desist from their misinformation campaign. Bringing in Britain, Saudi Arabia (as you did) , or the other 159 nations of the world only serves to blur the focus of this discussion.
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 12:39:07 PM EDT
It has been stated before, I wouldn't agree with the conclusion that we got our butts kicked in Korea. We did kick the communists out of South Korea (remember they attacked first) and we also pretty much wiped out the North Korean Army, it was the Chinese we were fighting towards the end. and this is my opinion, but I have watched the History Channel and I agree with them, the reason we got so involved with Israel is because the Soviet Union was providing support and weapons to the Arabs (Read Shadow Warriors, written by Tom Clancy and Gen. Steiner (Ret. SF General), they talk about the Russian pilots flying long range bombers out of Egypt) and we wanted to insure the Soviets didn't have too much influence in the area. As to why we still support Isreal, I don't know, nor will comment.
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 12:39:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: Then, compare the non-stop, incessant ranting of how we should support Israel, with the [red]almost complete and total silence[/red] about the republic of Korea AND Taiwan and their mortal enemys (as well as ours) China and North Korea. An almost exact parallel as to the nature of our ally, (Israel compared to RoK or Taiwan) yet an IMMENSE difference in the foreign policy the Israel supporters desire. If the discussion is about ANY nation OTHER than Israel, [red][b]we all[/b] hold to a non-interventionist, non foreign welfare,[/red] sovereignty of the USA, keep our tax dollars at home, show-me-where-the-Constitution- says- we can- do- that, less gov’t, America first policy. Throw Israel in the mix, and some of us turn into soccer moms. Hypocrisy. Plain and simple. Or at the very least IMMENSE bias. A bias SO obvious, it discredits those who hold it.
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The "silence" you hear regarding Taiwan probably comes from the fact that Taiwan is currently not under direct seige from China or ChiComm-supported forces. Israel IS under direct attack from Arab-supported forces. With respect to Taiwan, our past and current foreign policy has been that we would use "ANY MEANS NECESSARY" to defend Taiwan. Our committment to Israel is pretty much the same. I support our nation's committment to defend BOTH Taiwan and Israel "by any means necessary", so don't say that "[b]WE ALL[/b] hold to a non-interventionist" position in the defense of Taiwan but not Israel. It is not "soccer-mom hypocrisy" on my part to support the defense of both Taiwan and Israel.
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 12:44:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/19/2002 12:45:46 PM EDT by guardian855]
Originally Posted By Scarecrow: How do you know how many lives where saved at the price of so many women and children? How do you know that the fallout radiation dint sterilize many other people to the point where they could no longer reproduce. How many kids would have had to die that day for it to have been too high a cost for the end of that war? What's this number of saved lives you talk about?
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Hiroshima and Nagasaki have normal birth rates for Japan, even right after the war. Also a study I saw reported on on ABCNEWS.com shows that the survivors of the two atomic blasts have a far less rate of cancer as the rest of the population of Japan.
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 1:03:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By raf: Oh, so the US is complicit in the USSR's crimes? If your statement wasn't so pitifully wrong, it would be laughable. Garmany declared war on the US, not the other way around. What was the US supposed to do after Germany opened hostilities, just say "No, thanks"?
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Complicit? Directly linked would be better wording. The USA had the whole period before Germany declared war to go with Germany and defeat the communist and save many millions of lives. Also at the end of the war the USA could have kept going a been rid of the communist, saved millions of lives, and prevented the cold war and nuclear build-up.
So now it's "Big Business'" fault? Maybe, just maybe the invading North Vietnamese Army had a hand in all those civilian casualties. Maybe the VC "education squads" killing entire village governments and their families have bloody hands as well. Please supply documented proof that US actions in Vietnam were dictated by corporate interests.
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I need no more proof then the fact that all those who where responsible for the escalation of the war in Vietnam are now employed and funded by large oil companies.
Lastly, thanks for your kind words about the US' war casualties. Apparently over 70 Canadians felt common cause with the US, and paid the ultimate price also. You ought not to forget them, either.
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Most of your own people refused to fight in Vietnam and like usual as us Canadians always do, we felt responsible for our neighbors. Propaganda at its best. I see project Paper Clip was well worth the price.
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 1:17:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SliPkNoT: You're very ignorant. We rebuilt Germany and Japan - every hear of the Marshall Plan? We were airlifting material, food, etc into Germany 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. It was a key goal not to have another repeat of the Treaty of Versailles (sp) which would leave Germany poor and aggressive. As for Japan - it was the US and Gen. MacArthur who brought democracy, women's rights, economic rebuilding, etc to them. In fact, we did it SO well that both Germany AND Japan are now, and have been, MAJOR economic rivals to the US.
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Yes, you did that so you could prevent the commies from getting in control of it. It was simply a political move, which had nothing to do with right and wrong.
Yes, we were very much the "good guys" to those who lost the war! Russia on the other hand...
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Far from it. If the USA had not joined the war it would have lasted longer and the cummunist threat would have ceased to exist and you would have been left with a united europe which is already happening (EU). Hell the only true reason the US got involved was because of pearl harbor. If that had not happened you wouldnt have ever heard about the concentration camps, germany would probably have colonies on the moon. Instead you got communist mass graves you never heard about and a EU that just wants the USA to pay for all the poor people of the world.
Judging from the last Japanese census, they seem to be reproducing quite well.
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Well good for them. However no thanks to the USA.
It was the men, women, AND children whose lives were saved by the bomb. A mainland assault of Japan would killed millions on both sides.
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All guesses on your part.
No, but my school didn't teach bunker bunny, conspiracy geek, revisionist history written by guys in their northern Idaho basements either. And as far as some Nazi's being part Jewish, I believe it was Hermann Goering who said, "I will decide who is a Jew and who is not."
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That Hermann Goering quote reminds me of the saying priest have about god "he works in misterious ways". Its just Giberish added by Jews who got to rewrite history to make the Nazi's evil monsters so they could avoid the entire topic.
So basically you're saying that your posts are so void of any real content that you use shock value to compensate? If you want to remind everyone that both sides have a right to exist than why not just say it in the first place. This isn't a popularity contest.
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It has nothing to do with popularity, only a simple minded person would have got that opinion from what I said. The truth is I made it shocking so it has an effect instead of just being another post to skip over in a thread filled with complete and utter stupidity.
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 1:22:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By raf: The group labelled "Good Guys" also included Canada, Scarecrow. Frankly, I'd consider it an honor to be hated by a Nazi.
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Canada was far from being the good guys, we left Stalin in power aswell and he ended up making the Holocaust look like Disney land compared to Hitler. And actually the Nazi's loved Britain, Canada, and the USA simply because it was their beleif that our blood lines where all in some way linked. Most of the people who lived in our countries at that time where all distant relatives to the vikings.
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