Thats the thing man, you hand these navy guys a gun and they suddenly think their a highly trained death machine. Then they shoot their foot.

weapons knowledge in the Navy was pretty low when I was there, and I suspect it has become even lower based upon what I see when my military retired ass visits the local Naval hospital.  



I vividly recall one day when we were setting up a MK19 40mm getting into an arguement with a E-8 saying the Mk19 only had a range of a couple hundred yards....and why were we using it due to needing longer range.  He wasn't smart enough to even look at the sights and see the distance calibrations....  lol



I would imagine weapons knowledge in the Navy is lower than when I was in.

This, I thought there were two reasons why the marine corps exist.



1) rapid deployment capability

2) do all things at sea that require firearms.



 

Only ND I ever saw was in Iraq an E8 MSgt (Marine Crew Chief) skipped a 7.62 from a GAU down the flight line.  He got to autograph the first impact point.

Well I guess they need to bring them back...........................

I'm not familiar with the 240. Can some explain a bit on the "ride the bolt home causes a AD" thing?

Having read the message from RADM Thomas, I'll just say don't believe everything you read in the Navy Times.

Any gun that fires from an open bolt will fire if there are rounds loaded into the feed area and you ride the bolt forward.

The act of the bolt coming forward loads and fires the round.

Just what I wanted to hear, 3 days before I'm in Norfolk.

Fixed firing pin.......E6 in my unit learned this and made E5......

For those calling for a return to Marine security, they don't exactly boast of a stellar safety record, (Yellow Water, cough, cough, for example) either. Young, bored, armed guys are going to get in trouble, bank on it. I am curious why a vessel moored at Metro, Norshipco or whatever yard they were in has crew-served small arms mounted and loaded, though.

Wow.
Didn't realize that.
That is sad, from a historical perspective.

A ship without marines is like a garment without buttons, I think the quote was.

Armed deck watch in port was been SOP since the USS Cole bombing.  

 

It was so much simpler during the Cold War.

In Germany ('88-'90) all the tanks in the motor pool had a full load of tank rounds, small arms ammo was kept in Conex's at the end of each platoon area in the motor pool, and all the demolitions, mines, Dragon's and TOW's that us Scouts would load were kept down the road in a facility with dogs and armed guards.

Each guard shift would start with a march to HQ for inspection and the inevitable "Deadly Force Briefing" (....call out "Halt" in English and the local language, fire a warning shot first, blah blah blah......). Of course they never gave us any ammo.

You see, when the Red Army Faction came to steal a fully loaded tank and clear all the ammo out of the Conex's by sneaking up on you, all alone in a guard shack in the middle of the night, we were supposed to call out to the guard room, about 300 yards away, and hopefully wake somebody up. The Sgt on duty would call to HQ and report the incident. If given permission to do so he would open the safe, retrieve a loaded magazine, wake up one of the other guards sleeping between shifts, and have him bring you the magazine. You could then load your weapon, call out "Halt" in English and the local language, firing a warning shot at what is now a stolen M60 tank out on the main road, and then fire a second shot to kill the fleeing tank, now completely out of sight. If both rounds could not be retrieved you would be investigated for stealing ammunition.

In '89 we got rid of the tankers and went through Bradley transition. We became an Air Cav squadron with Cobras providing overwatch while us Scouts did our recon in the Bradleys. The airfield was about 1 mile away, we couldn't carry rifles on guard because they didn't want to offend the local farmers so were given axe handles!! Well, the local Kraut news station reported the large yellow crates in the hangars were nuclear weapons (was diagnostics gear) and the Germans staged a protest. We're watching it on the news and 3 Germans jump the fence and start spraypainting the Cobras.....out of nowhere come the guards swinging their axe handles, beat the living crap out of those Rads, we couldn't stop laughing, funniest thing I'd ever seen, Live on German TV

So, we never had a single ND on guard duty.

Still trying to figure out what "Halt" is in the local language......oh, wait a minute.

A lot of the Navy's problem with firearms is that a lot of the fuckin' guys that teach this shit went to small arms instructor school in the early 90s and never went back when the courses changed. We FINALLY get a quality company (STS) teaching the crew served weapons instructor school and the Navy shitcanned them about a year ago. The quality of crew served weapons instructors has again, shot through the floor.

-GM1(EXW)

Guns and sailors don't mix. Unless the sailor is a Navy SEAL

When I went through boot camp in 1985, firearms training consisted of firing 10 rounds from a .22 pistol. Has this changed?

Really!! I have just as much small arms weapons training as most Marines. I qualed expert more than once. Who the hell are you?

DD214 or it didn't happen.



 

Don't feed the troll boys.

Negative I was stationed there too and it did not unload a full 1500 round drum into the city. It was like one or two.

Brilliantly Stated!!!

That's how I read it.

Well, to be honest, you are more marine than sailor anyway.

That is the truth. When rates that don't train with firearms on a regular basis are given a weapon and are expected to be at the same standard as though rates that do it is disaster waiting to happen.

I was on the James E. Williams and I am surprised that the M240 was kept in good enough condition to ND.



A picture I took of the gun and the boat in question:







 

/thread

So who exactly did you receive that firearm training from?

Was he spinning a round out?

It was 10 rounds from a .22lr converted AR15 when I went through in 95.

 

9545 (Navy Law Enforcement Specialist) used to train with Marine Cadre when I was in. Don't know what the fuck they do now.

These are definitely training failures, and a overreaction by the brass. Not unlike the bull shit we went through because of those ignorant fucking frat boys at Tailhook.

I'm a reservist, about as low on the totem pole as it gets, and I know the m240 in and out. Same with the m2hb and mk19, they're my primary weapons, but I also play with the m240 a lot. I've never had an ND, never even a jam with the m240. It's a wonderful weapon, and it works, which is why it is the world's finest GPMG.

Make every sailor perform drills with the assigned duty weapons before libo. Repeatedly, until morale improves and learning occurs.

Do you not know what a Navy Corpsman  is or what we do?

Master at Arms now. They do their own thing and pretty much took over Marine Corps security forces duties.

Or a Corpsman.

A Marine would know this.

Or EOD, SWCC, MA (and related jobs such as HVBSS, MSF, etc.), RIVRON, GM, Seabees, etc.

SEALs and HNs aren't the only guys in the Navy that know their way around a weapon.

Yeah, but a GM or MA don't know tactics. Sure they can load a weapon and fire it, but they don't know how to run and gun. I have worked with a lot of MAs and GMs and they can't clear a room or do an inner and outer cordon or anything like that. Combat training instills not just how to fire a weapon, but how to use a weapon.

I'm not sure I've ever heard of an MA who can't clear a room... but I'm sure there's a few out there that can't.... There's also plenty of MAs that go into Iraq or Afghanistan.

I'm just arguing the fact that guns and sailors don't mix.

I've had some experience with some Seabees and I didn't get that they were too handy with a gun. When they rolled around Iraq they had Marines around to protect them. By their nature they aren't going to get the same training an EOD, Seal, Corpsman, etc will because that's not their job.

Note: My 1/2 my extended family are Navy...and Seabees. I'm the black sheep at family reunions.

Corpsmen are really just Marines with the wrong name tapes on anyways, so there's your answer

From what I have seen they are mostly guards. In either case I agree that there are a lot Sailors who know how to handle weapons. They should be the ones who are doing the armed posts and not the ones who have only handled them once in boot camp. The fact that they are barring people doing armed posts on rank rather than rate shows how ignorant that rule is. What does rank matter if you don't have the firearm experience to back it up.

Either case I don't give a shit right now. I am going to Afghanistan in 4 weeks and I have been enjoying a couple beers whenever I have the chance

Oh believe you me, I'm very keen on the Navy and you docs ;)

I was an MA myself. Just never got the sailors / guns hate.




Yeah, the rank thing is a purely Navy leadership BS thing. Always blame the lower ranking guys. Whatever though, that's another story.

Most MAs are post whores or do a mix of fixed post / vehicle / roving patrol. Then you have the more specialized jobs like MWD and on and on. When I got out in 2005 there was plenty of opportunities after your first tour to do something more specialized. A lot of guys I know (that didn't get out ASAFP) went to advanced schools. It seems like its gotten even more specialized since, which I like.

Keep in mind, many MA's during my time were BUD/S or SWCC drops. Many of them went back to try again after their time was up to go back and try again.

Hell, Monsoor was an MA stationed in Sigonella who then went to BUD/S.

Unfortunately on a ship they think everyone should get to kick the ball so that's probably why you have a lot of non gun types fucking around with weapons. You and I both know as Navy guys why that exists and you hit the nail on the head in your post - its the shit boot camp training with firearms, and then lack of it unless you're in a rate that needs them.

Back when I was 9545 we cleared buildings, but we operated in pairs most of the time, not squads. We didn't use Small Unit Tactics much if at all because that was not our primary role. Things may have changed quite a bit. I've been out for a long time at this point.

I have respect for MAs don't get me wrong. When I was on security detail for a shot time on base, they asked me if I wanted to get OC sprayed and pepper sprayed  like that had been. I took the pepper spray and that was bad enough, I can't imagine what OC spray is like

I responded to your second post in an ETA above

It's easy enough to do if you aren't an experienced gunner.  If you're tired or just a pussy it's an ND waiting to happen if you try to charge the weapon and slam the CH back forward without getting the bolt far enough back to lock.  I had an issued M249 that had a worn sear and it was waaaay easy for this to happen if you weren't careful.

Boot.

It was 10 rounds from a M911A1 with a .22lr conversion when I went through in 93.