E-4 and below barred from standing armed watches aboard Atlantic Fleet ships - Page 3

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - E-4 and below barred from standing armed watches aboard Atlantic Fleet ships (Page 3 of 6)

Posted: 9/5/2010 10:13:58 PM EDT

[#1]

Guys, I'm the lowest of the low, and I still get how an M240 works. Isn't it standard to yank on the charging handle of a machine gun as hard as you can?? Mk19, M240, M249, M2, and on.

Posted: 9/5/2010 10:15:24 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
Make every sailor perform drills with the assigned duty weapons before libo. Repeatedly, until morale improves and learning occurs.

That same squid maintains my SPY-1B(V) radar, which is critical to my BMD mission. That same squid had to preserve topside spaces, clean interior ones, do the same mando B.S. training everyone else does.

Just where do you want me to fit that into my Sailors' schedule?

(For the record, my SPY techs rarely got a weekend off from Jan to Jul of this year.)

Posted: 9/5/2010 10:16:55 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
Guys, I'm the lowest of the low, and I still get how an M240 works. Isn't it standard to yank on the charging handle of a machine gun as hard as you can?? Mk19, M240, M249, M2, and on.

Well for one you only charge the 249 and 240 once....the 19 and M2 twice and the M2(also has to be head spaced and timed) is a closed bolt with no external safety(unless you have the new mod)..........here is obviously one of the problems....

Posted: 9/5/2010 10:20:02 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Guys, I'm the lowest of the low, and I still get how an M240 works. Isn't it standard to yank on the charging handle of a machine gun as hard as you can?? Mk19, M240, M249, M2, and on.

Well for one you only charge the 249 and 240 once....the 19 and M2 twice and the M2(also has to be head spaced and timed) is a closed bolt with no external safety(unless you have the new mod)..........here is obviously one of the problems....

The Mk19 made me hold my breath every time when I got it ready to fire. i was so used to belt feds working like the 240 and 249 that it freaked me out bigtime doing that charge, dry fire, charge again routine

Posted: 9/5/2010 10:20:24 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Guys, I'm the lowest of the low, and I still get how an M240 works. Isn't it standard to yank on the charging handle of a machine gun as hard as you can?? Mk19, M240, M249, M2, and on.

Well for one you only charge the 249 and 240 once....the 19 and M2 twice and the M2(also has to be head spaced and timed) is a closed bolt with no external safety(unless you have the new mod)..........here is obviously one of the problems....

Mea culpa. But I still wouldn't have a ND with any of them by treating the charging handle like a porcelain dick.

(and I was aware of the M2 double charge, but not the Mk19)

Posted: 9/5/2010 10:20:44 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

Quoted:
so....those below E-5 are no longer professional enough?

The only ND I was ever present for was done by an E-5 SGT. Nothing is so loud as a boom instead of a click.

I propose we disarm the entire Military..................

I know an E5 Ranger that ND'd a clearing barrel...it happens...fatigue etc...............

And I know four rangers, two of them non-coms that drunkenly managed three ND's between them over an hour while horsing around at an apartment with their CCW weapons. You think they would have quit after the first one, but then again they're not SF

Posted: 9/5/2010 10:21:40 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:

Quoted:
so....those below E-5 are no longer professional enough?

The only ND I was ever present for was done by an E-5 SGT. Nothing is so loud as a boom instead of a click.

I propose we disarm the entire Military..................

I know an E5 Ranger that ND'd a clearing barrel...it happens...fatigue etc...............

And I know four rangers, two of them non-coms that drunkenly managed three ND's between them over an hour while horsing around at an apartment with their CCW weapons. You think they would have quit after the first one, but then again they're not SF

SF lite.........

....

Posted: 9/5/2010 10:23:34 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
The location - A small FOB in Iraq

The situation - An NCO giving some professional instruction to a junior Marine on the AT-4

The result? Negligent discharge of an AT-4 INSIDE of a guard post with bulletproof glass.

Ran outside my little hooch thinking ti was a vbied but saw the guy fall out of the tower.

How they survived the back blast I have no idea

Wow, this dude must be a legend.

Posted: 9/5/2010 10:44:10 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
We had one with a 155mm howitzer in Afghanistan as well. Apparently the usual 'Special instructions: Do not load" did not come over the radio for some reason, so instead of verifying the unusual request, the gun crew simply carried out their instructions as they received them.[/div]

I've seen that happen. Happens a lot with faulty digital units for some reason.

Posted: 9/5/2010 10:49:02 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

Quoted:
When I went through boot camp in 1985, firearms training consisted of firing 10 rounds from a .22 pistol. Has this changed?

It was 10 rounds from a .22lr converted AR15 when I went through in 95.

Boot.

It was 10 rounds from a M911A1 with a .22lr conversion when I went through in 93.

Like watching two geriatrics argue over who makes the better Tapioca pudding

Posted: 9/5/2010 11:02:08 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Guys, I'm the lowest of the low, and I still get how an M240 works. Isn't it standard to yank on the charging handle of a machine gun as hard as you can?? Mk19, M240, M249, M2, and on.

Well for one you only charge the 249 and 240 once....the 19 and M2 twice and the M2(also has to be head spaced and timed) is a closed bolt with no external safety(unless you have the new mod)..........here is obviously one of the problems....

The Mk19 made me hold my breath every time when I got it ready to fire. i was so used to belt feds working like the 240 and 249 that it freaked me out bigtime doing that charge, dry fire, charge again routine

It's funny watching a Mk19 range and seeing how many people can't grasp the concept of the "ghost round" until after they've sat behind the gun for a while.

Posted: 9/5/2010 11:09:27 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

We had one with a 155mm howitzer in Afghanistan as well. Apparently the usual 'Special instructions: Do not load" did not come over the radio for some reason, so instead of verifying the unusual request, the gun crew simply carried out their instructions as they received them. Deathly silence in the TOC when the BOOM came through the walls, all eyes turned to face the FDO. Then they all turned to the TV monitors where the impact area was under Predator observation.

That's not unheard of in training or in real life. DNL or AMC is not heard by the FDC or the guns when shooting voice. The computer operator doesn't put in DNL or AMC when shooting digital––then the gun chief can't read the GDU-R because he's a stupid fuck and wants to be the first gun to fire, thus botching the fire commands. Then you have TOTs or fire plans where the FDNCO completely forgets simple math, and the FDO is just another tard sitting in the corner announcing target elevation, site, and fire order.

Posted: 9/5/2010 11:13:49 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Guns and sailors don't mix. Unless the sailor is a Navy SEAL

Or a Corpsman.

A Marine would know this.

Or EOD, SWCC, MA (and related jobs such as HVBSS, MSF, etc.), RIVRON, GM, Seabees, etc.

SEALs and HNs aren't the only guys in the Navy that know their way around a weapon.

I've had some experience with some Seabees and I didn't get that they were too handy with a gun. When they rolled around Iraq they had Marines around to protect them. By their nature they aren't going to get the same training an EOD, Seal, Corpsman, etc will because that's not their job.

Note: My 1/2 my extended family are Navy...and Seabees. I'm the black sheep at family reunions.

Corpsmen are really just Marines with the wrong name tapes on anyways, so there's your answer

Oh believe you me, I'm very keen on the Navy and you docs ;)

I was an MA myself. Just never got the sailors / guns hate.

From what I have seen they are mostly guards. In either case I agree that there are a lot Sailors who know how to handle weapons. They should be the ones who are doing the armed posts and not the ones who have only handled them once in boot camp. The fact that they are barring people doing armed posts on rank rather than rate shows how ignorant that rule is. What does rank matter if you don't have the firearm experience to back it up

Yeah, the rank thing is a purely Navy leadership BS thing. Always blame the lower ranking guys. Whatever though, that's another story.

Most MAs are post whores or do a mix of fixed post / vehicle / roving patrol. Then you have the more specialized jobs like MWD and on and on. When I got out in 2005 there was plenty of opportunities after your first tour to do something more specialized. A lot of guys I know (that didn't get out ASAFP) went to advanced schools. It seems like its gotten even more specialized since, which I like.

Keep in mind, many MA's during my time were BUD/S or SWCC drops. Many of them went back to try again after their time was up to go back and try again.

Hell, Monsoor was an MA stationed in Sigonella who then went to BUD/S.

Unfortunately on a ship they think everyone should get to kick the ball so that's probably why you have a lot of non gun types fucking around with weapons. You and I both know as Navy guys why that exists and you hit the nail on the head in your post - its the shit boot camp training with firearms, and then lack of it unless you're in a rate that needs them.

Posted: 9/5/2010 11:15:19 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Stupidity in action.

One jerkoff with a M9. So what? Hopefully the Skipper fucked him right up the pooper chuter with a rusty pineapple, sideways.

But THREE M240B 'incidents'? I happen to like this weapon platform, having been trained on it, simulator time, blank time, and live round time. It seems all three incidents just had one round discharge, which is consistent with 'riding the bolt home' without one's booger picker on the bang switch.

More training is definitely in order. I'm surprised all the quals weren't pulled. Even if I didn't deserve it, qualifying again would be a walk in the park even though I went through the training over 5 years ago.

I think all the idiots were E-4 or below. If it included E-5, get them too. As high as necessary.

On a side note... freakin' fleeters!!!

Squids don't understand open bolt.

There are folks in the ARMY that don't understand 'open bolt'...

Posted: 9/5/2010 11:19:18 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

Quoted:

The location - A small FOB in Iraq

The situation - An NCO giving some professional instruction to a junior Marine on the AT-4

The result? Negligent discharge of an AT-4 INSIDE of a guard post with bulletproof glass.

Ran outside my little hooch thinking ti was a vbied but saw the guy fall out of the tower.

How they survived the back blast I have no idea

AT-4, as in, the rocket????

84mm Recoil-less Rifle - but yes, to folks who learned weapons from Quake... 'Rocket Launcher''

They are always 'loaded' because they're single-shot-and-throw-away weapons...

The Marines have a weapon called 'SMAW' that is reloadable, but it looks totally different....

Posted: 9/5/2010 11:27:05 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Well, at least the "negligent discharges" weren't with RIM-7 Sea Sparrows:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TCG_Muavenet_(DM_357)

There was an ND in a neighbouring unit when I was in Iraq with a 120mm tank round. I'm trying to figure out how you do that, because there's this great big f*ck-off arming lever that needs to be raised, the gunner's toggle needs to be selected, the trigger pulled, or the master blaster cranked.
We had one with a 155mm howitzer in Afghanistan as well. Apparently the usual 'Special instructions: Do not load" did not come over the radio for some reason, so instead of verifying the unusual request, the gun crew simply carried out their instructions as they received them. Deathly silence in the TOC when the BOOM came through the walls, all eyes turned to face the FDO. Then they all turned to the TV monitors where the impact area was under Predator observation.

Table 5, night (new HBCT qual)...
What happens when you try to lase a target with the little red button on the manual pump-handle?
Identified... UP! Ran-BOOOM....
(No, not me... But it did happen... For those who don't know tanks, the gunner's handles have a little red button on top of each handle, that activates the laser, to get range-to-target for the computer. The manual controls have a button in the same spot... But it's a trigger for the main gun/coaxial MG...)

Posted: 9/5/2010 11:28:06 PM EDT

[#17]

Dave Thomas needs to STFU and stick to hocking his shitty square burgers.
Oh, wait.

Wrong guy.

Posted: 9/6/2010 12:07:14 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Guys, I'm the lowest of the low, and I still get how an M240 works. Isn't it standard to yank on the charging handle of a machine gun as hard as you can?? Mk19, M240, M249, M2, and on.

Well for one you only charge the 249 and 240 once....the 19 and M2 twice and the M2(also has to be head spaced and timed) is a closed bolt with no external safety(unless you have the new mod)..........here is obviously one of the problems....

The Mk19 made me hold my breath every time when I got it ready to fire. i was so used to belt feds working like the 240 and 249 that it freaked me out bigtime doing that charge, dry fire, charge again routine

It's funny watching a Mk19 range and seeing how many people can't grasp the concept of the "ghost round" until after they've sat behind the gun for a while.

Oh yeah, you have to charge it twice. Once to move the round over, then another to move it down. Second nature.

I actually ran into a rare thing.. I found a 40mm that WORKED consistently. Don't know why, it banged away all day, hitting targets regularly out to 1400 m with ease. Burned though 8 cases of 40mm HEDP on that gun, I know it works

Posted: 9/6/2010 3:16:20 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
I've never been in the Navy... but in Army-speak, here's what this letter means:

"Okay, you mid-level leaders. Obviously, you can't get your shit together and keep Joe from having negligent discharges. At some point, your failure to train and supervise is gonna get one of us seniors fired. So, to give you some time to think about how to unfuck yourselves... YOU will be pulling the duty for your E-5 and below guys."

This statement is a textbook example of how to exert "command emphasis" to ensure a trained and ready force.

It works WAAAY better than the summary "relief for cause" of the whole chain of command that used to be the preferred practice.

The good bit is that this one will roll down hill in the form of more range time for our sailors. Not bad. it'll give all those chiefs something to do in stead of sitting around practicing their coffee drinking skills.

Posted: 9/6/2010 3:18:40 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:

The good bit is that this one will roll down hill in the form of more range time for our sailors. Not bad. it'll give all those chiefs something to do in stead of sitting around practicing their coffee drinking skills.

No it won't. There are two fundamental problems out there right now:
-Lack of range facilities
-Lack of NCEA

Neither of which are going to change based on the actual message I read, not some Navy Crimes story.

Posted: 9/6/2010 3:24:07 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
I bet the Marine security guys are talking some major shit to the squabbies.........

We have not done that mission since around 97, there is only 2 locations in which Marines are assigned to provide security to the Navy.

Although one of the Navy's most recent efficiency efforts has to have Marine resume many of these security force missions.

Posted: 9/6/2010 3:26:32 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Why aren't Marines doing these jobs? They are "Soldiers of the Sea"...

http://media.nara.gov/media/images/7/1/07-0019a.gif

Under Krulak, the Security Forces/Sea Duty was reduced from approx 10,000 Marines to a little over 2,000. There are various reasons for what happen but in the end it was to allow a shifting of end strength from the supporting establishment to the operational forces.

Posted: 9/6/2010 3:31:38 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
I'm not sure I've ever heard of an MA who can't clear a room... but I'm sure there's a few out there that can't.... There's also plenty of MAs that go into Iraq or Afghanistan.

I'm just arguing the fact that guns and sailors don't mix.

Well you may want to tell "Big Navy" that because many of them are citing the MA's lack of ground combat skills and inability to do more than stand static posts as a reason they should be replaced by Marines and in fact an overall desire to reduce/replace the NECC with Marines.

Posted: 9/6/2010 3:53:01 AM EDT

[#24]

It requires changing the entire culture. Weapons training and PT are after thoughts to stuff like Op Tempo, refits and POM's. Until it is ingrained into the culture of the USN there will be problems.

Weapons training should be like the leg branches, issued a rifle day one and lot of range and familiarity time. Should be changing from sailors to warriors, times dictate.

Posted: 9/6/2010 4:02:57 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
This, gentlemen, is what happens when training is dumbed down, or what big Navy would say, "simplified in order to save time and money because sailors only need to fire a very minimum of live rounds after similarly minimal weapons training." This is what happens when despite minimal training time allotted, watchbills must still be filled, so sailors that fail to qualify are given scores that barely meet minimums. Big Navy pisses and moans, then generally disapproves requests for training ammunition allotments, then they gasp in wonder when incidents like this happen.

Agree. This is also what happens when urban dumbasses who have never even seen a gun get minimal training and are carrying one around. Pathetic.

Posted: 9/6/2010 4:09:06 AM EDT

[#26]

Get your fingers off the triggers Swabbies !!

Posted: 9/6/2010 4:16:58 AM EDT

[#27]

Live fire is only a portion of the skills needed to properly handle weapons.

It takes no extra facilities or ranges, to REGULARLY breakdown and reassemble weapons.

Practice loading and unloading with dummy rounds.

Practice room clearing, etc with "yellow barrels" installed in duty pistols.

It takes very little to purchase professional Airsoft handguns and rifles, that fire either the standard pellet, or a "paintball" type projectile.

Not to mention going over and ENFORCING proper weapons handling during training.

Posted: 9/6/2010 4:26:10 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
Regular Navy and good gun skills don't mix....don't they have the marines for that?

The ship board Marines have largely been replaced by Sailors. The Navy needs to address this issue an install a professional warrior mentality in all of their Sailors.

Posted: 9/6/2010 4:27:50 AM EDT

[#29]

GLOCK was not allowed in the pistol trials that resulted in the M9 selection, as it lacked an external safety. Hmmm.... depend on an external safety, or train?

Posted: 9/6/2010 4:44:19 AM EDT

[#30]

While knowing the individual augmentee program puts a strain on the fleet, it also creates a much more well-rounded Sailor and gives them some exposure to small arms, so that's a good thing.

Sailors have always been responsible for manning both crew-served and smaller belt fed weapons on ships, always. To say the Marines should do this is as much a cop-out as saying the gun-related stuff is only a collateral duty for which training can be handled by an NKO course.

Posted: 9/6/2010 4:51:23 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I've never been in the Navy... but in Army-speak, here's what this letter means:

"Okay, you mid-level leaders. Obviously, you can't get your shit together and keep Joe from having negligent discharges. At some point, your failure to train and supervise is gonna get one of us seniors fired. So, to give you some time to think about how to unfuck yourselves... YOU will be pulling the duty for your E-5 and below guys."

/thread

I'm former Army, and this is EXACTLY what popped into my mind. It ain't about not trusting E-4 and below, it's about making life hell for E-5 and above to teach them a leadership lesson about getting positive control over their subordinates.

Posted: 9/6/2010 5:21:21 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I've never been in the Navy... but in Army-speak, here's what this letter means:

"Okay, you mid-level leaders. Obviously, you can't get your shit together and keep Joe from having negligent discharges. At some point, your failure to train and supervise is gonna get one of us seniors fired. So, to give you some time to think about how to unfuck yourselves... YOU will be pulling the duty for your E-5 and below guys."

/thread

I'm former Army, and this is EXACTLY what popped into my mind. It ain't about not trusting E-4 and below, it's about making life hell for E-5 and above to teach them a leadership lesson about getting positive control over their subordinates.

That's the issue, small arms training is so non-existant mid-level leaders aren't much better than a brand new E-1. The leadership sees it as an afterthought; not much of a concern tooling around at 400ft on a submarine. That's the problem, they need to be made into warriors at basic and follow on training and then trained to be submariners, airmen and such.

I have seen people get all the way to a submarine never having fired a shot in their entire lives and actually be afraid of small arms. I was at Navy Security School back in the 80's and a female trainee was so afraid of the shotgun she started crying on the firing line.

Posted: 9/6/2010 5:24:47 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
It requires changing the entire culture. Weapons training and PT are after thoughts to stuff like Op Tempo, refits and POM's. Until it is ingrained into the culture of the USN there will be problems.

Weapons training should be like the leg branches, issued a rifle day one and lot of range and familiarity time. Should be changing from sailors to warriors, times dictate.

This seems like a good place to step in.

As far as the original statement goes, I see that as a safety standdown. It will infuriate the fleet, but these things happen.

As far as the culture goes, we-ll............during the Cold War, I had spent lots of time, effort, money, and ammo getting an area's ASF trained by the Marines (local and FAST) (I may be off on my terms, it was over a score ago).

One day, I went to a high level area security meeting. At one point, the subject came up of deploying armed ASF to provide security. A senior officer at the meeting immediately commented, "Sailors with guns? Oh, I don't know about that."

I was internally livid! Here I had spent all this time training them to deploy them to that area and then they say they didn't want them!

Now, what generates that attitude, I don't know. But I have seen it.
_________________________________________________________
("What? You don't, don't think I can do it?"––Pope about doing the sanction
"Not even in a locked closet with a hand gernade."––Hemlock, (w,stte), "The Eiger Sanction")

Posted: 9/6/2010 5:40:57 AM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:

Quoted:
For cryin out loud, my 10 year old can recite the 4 basic rules of firearm safety, but our sailors are jacking rounds all over the place?

edit: I should get off my high horse, our domestic leos are just as prone to this kind of recklessness.

I would lay odds that those sailors tried to ride the bolt closed on the M240B. Open bolt is an SOB for being unforgiving about that.

10-4, I've been in two active duty INFANTRY units where that exact thing happened. Soldiers get used to the M16, then treat the M240 the same way. Once in Cuba and once at Ft Hood.

Posted: 9/6/2010 5:44:10 AM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:

Quoted:
It requires changing the entire culture. Weapons training and PT are after thoughts to stuff like Op Tempo, refits and POM's. Until it is ingrained into the culture of the USN there will be problems.

Weapons training should be like the leg branches, issued a rifle day one and lot of range and familiarity time. Should be changing from sailors to warriors, times dictate.

This seems like a good place to step in.

As far as the original statement goes, I see that as a safety standdown. It will infuriate the fleet, but these things happen.

As far as the culture goes, we-ll............during the Cold War, I had spent lots of time, effort, money, and ammo getting an area's ASF trained by the Marines (local and FAST) (I may be off on my terms, it was over a score ago).

One day, I went to a high level area security meeting. At one point, the subject came up of deploying armed ASF to provide security. A senior officer at the meeting immediately commented, "Sailors with guns? Oh, I don't know about that."

I was internally livid! Here I had spent all this time training them to deploy them to that area and then they say they didn't want them!

Now, what generates that attitude, I don't know. But I have seen it.
_________________________________________________________
("What? You don't, don't think I can do it?"––Pope about doing the sanction
"Not even in a locked closet with a hand gernade."––Hemlock, (w,stte), "The Eiger Sanction")

That's my point, there are allot of old attitudes that need to change.

Posted: 9/6/2010 5:45:11 AM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:

Quoted:
For cryin out loud, my 10 year old can recite the 4 basic rules of firearm safety, but our sailors are jacking rounds all over the place?

edit: I should get off my high horse, our domestic leos are just as prone to this kind of recklessness.

I would lay odds that those sailors tried to ride the bolt closed on the M240B. Open bolt is an SOB for being unforgiving about that.

This. We had several negligent discharges at SUBASE Groton when sailors tried to "eject the chambered round" from the MK43 (M-60).

Posted: 9/6/2010 5:48:45 AM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:

Quoted:
For cryin out loud, my 10 year old can recite the 4 basic rules of firearm safety, but our sailors are jacking rounds all over the place?

edit: I should get off my high horse, our domestic leos are just as prone to this kind of recklessness.

I would lay odds that those sailors tried to ride the bolt closed on the M240B. Open bolt is an SOB for being unforgiving about that.

This. We had several negligent discharges at SUBASE Groton when sailors tried to "eject the chambered round" from the MK43 (M-60).

Crab Island has taken a few shots also.

Posted: 9/6/2010 6:10:39 AM EDT

[#38]

Crewmen from the USS Barb during WW2 were the only US armed forces personel to step foot on the Japanese home islands during the war. They blew up a train. The CO picked men from all divisions onboard, his only requirement was as many former Boy Scouts as possible.

Crewmen on a DE in the Atlantic fought hand to hand with boarders from a German sub during WW2.

Can't see it going over well now.

These things are not as far fetched as one would believe. The Govt and military REALLY believed we were at war then and trained everyone accordingly.

Posted: 9/6/2010 6:11:46 AM EDT

[#39]

As someone who has never fired, well as an adult, anything larger, rifle wise, a -16, -14, .........

can you explain these differences in bolt closing, clearing? Is it like an Uzi where you can't load unless the safety is off?

Posted: 9/6/2010 6:16:27 AM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The location - A small FOB in Iraq

The situation - An NCO giving some professional instruction to a junior Marine on the AT-4

The result? Negligent discharge of an AT-4 INSIDE of a guard post with bulletproof glass.

Ran outside my little hooch thinking ti was a vbied but saw the guy fall out of the tower.

How they survived the back blast I have no idea

04-05? Think I heard about this...

Holy shit! I take it the warhead doesn't arm until it has cleared some distance?

Posted: 9/6/2010 6:23:55 AM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
As someone who has never fired, well as an adult, anything larger, rifle wise, a -16, -14, .........

can you explain these differences in bolt closing, clearing? Is it like an Uzi where you can't load unless the safety is off?

Most crew served machine guns fire from an open bolt, as in the bolt is locked back and a feed tray is opened and a belt of ammo is laid across the feed tray, then the tray is closed. When you fire the weapon the sear actually releases the bolt instead of a hammer. The weapon fires as the bolt closes.

Posted: 9/6/2010 6:27:48 AM EDT

[#42]

As far as large institutions go the order actually seems somewhat reasonable. Knowing large institutions like I do, there has to be a catch somewhere or someone down the chain from CINCSURFLANT is going to royally fuck up the execution.

Open bolt crew served weapons are tricky if you are not mechanically inclined. Most people need extra training time on them to understand exactly what they are doing since it seems counter intuitive that if you put a round into the chamber the weapon is going to fire immediately there after whether you want it to or not. Training and overall firearms knowlege is the key.

Posted: 9/6/2010 6:49:45 AM EDT

[#43]

My first tag. I will be back later with tales from the navy that will make you

Posted: 9/6/2010 6:50:30 AM EDT

[#44]

This is why you NEVER patrol with an open bolt weapon with the bolt back. Whether it be the SAW or 240.

Put the rounds on the tray and you are good to go, no worries.

If you have a M2 or Mk19, Only 1 rack, Never two.

The time it takes you to rack once is negligible and reduces your chance of an ND remarkably

Posted: 9/6/2010 6:50:59 AM EDT

[#45]

Hell, I thought that standing watch was why they have junior enlisted.

Posted: 9/6/2010 6:57:06 AM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Stupidity in action.

One jerkoff with a M9. So what? Hopefully the Skipper fucked him right up the pooper chuter with a rusty pineapple, sideways.

But THREE M240B 'incidents'? I happen to like this weapon platform, having been trained on it, simulator time, blank time, and live round time. It seems all three incidents just had one round discharge, which is consistent with 'riding the bolt home' without one's booger picker on the bang switch.

More training is definitely in order. I'm surprised all the quals weren't pulled. Even if I didn't deserve it, qualifying again would be a walk in the park even though I went through the training over 5 years ago.

I think all the idiots were E-4 or below. If it included E-5, get them too. As high as necessary.

On a side note... freakin' fleeters!!!

Squids don't understand open bolt.

True. Better yet, just have them charge, make sure its locked open, put it on safe, and THEN open the feed tray and place the belt on. Can't mess that one up.

Posted: 9/6/2010 7:01:43 AM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:

Quoted:
That's what happens when you have people in charge that "have been downrange" and are set in their ways of finger on the trigger, weapon on fire at all times, and just a general disregard for safety.

I knew my squad leader (a fucking router fixer 25 series guy) was full of shit when he told me that when he cleared rooms in Iraq, he left his M4 in the truck because the M9 puts guy down better.

Our military has a huge problem. It's not direct gas vs. piston. It's not 5.56 vs 6.8. It's the fact that we don't have any modern firearms training.

I agree 100%.

You know, come to think of it, that's a great point. Most firearms training is relegated to the stuff one would need in a symmetrical conflict, like an eventual Cold War era battle on the terrain of northern Europe. Lots of open area, little chance of collateral damage, long range encounters. ND's in that environment, while still bad, are not as show stopping as ones on a ship, or in a tent city in some FOB in Iraq.