Hey, everyone!

I have an open issue with Donnie at Sableco, and I'm calling on you all for advice on what to do.  Here's the story:

I ordered a bunch of stuff from him in early January.  Service was great, except that one item, a SureFire M900AB was not in stock.  Donnie stated that he'd order it for me, but couldn't give an estimate on delivery time due to SureFire demand outpacing production.  I said no problem because I was not in a big hurry for it, and his price was good.

The price we agreed upon was $350, with $100 being required immediately, balance of $250 due on delivery.  I have an electronic and a paper copy of an invoice showing this agreed-upon price, and I immediately sent a payment, which included the $100 down on the SureFire.

Here's where the issue comes in:  On Monday, I got an email from Donnie stating good news/bad news.  Good news: my SureFire had arrived.  Bad news: the price had increased from $350 to $420 (a 20% increase!).  He stated that SureFire had recently increased their prices, and he couldn't sell it to me at the agreed-upon price.

I replied to him that I had received an invoice from him with a purchase price of $350 (and had paid him a $100 deposit), and that I consider the invoice to be a contract to purchase at that price.  He then replied that his web site states that prices are subject to change (and it does).  However, my position is that once an order is taken and an invoice is issued, that price should not and can not be changed.

Now, I'm a reasonable guy.  I'd like you guys/gals to tell me if I should accept his sudden price increase or if I should stand firm for the price on the original invoice (keep in mind that he took a $100 deposit, too).  I don't know Donnie's position, but if the concensus here is that I am wrong, I will admit it and move on.

This was my first experience with Donnie, and up to now, it was a great experience.  I hold no ill will towards Donnie - I know he sells at low margins and that he does it in addition to his day job.  However, I believe the honorable thing for him to do, in this case, is to honor our original agreed-upon price, even if he has to sell at a loss.

What do you think?

Thanks,
SAB

[b]Update 3/19/02:  True to his reputation, Donnie has agreed to sell the light to me at the invoiced price.  I couldn't be happier and will continue to purchase from Sableco![/b]

OK, I'll bite. Even if I'm the only one...[:D]

I know what it's like to be on your end of the deal and I also know what it's like to be in the situation that Donnie is in.

If it was me, I'd probably go ahead and buy it because I know that Donnie is a stand-up guy and he wouldn't BS you on the price.
It's very likely that Surefire is jacking the prices up and using the 9/11 excuse, just because they can.

On the other hand I think that if Surefire raised the prices without telling Donnie, they should be responsible for the difference not you or Sableco and Donnie should try to go to bat for you. If he hasn't already...

How about splitting the difference?

The invoice is exactly what you said, a contract.  This would be equal to the bait and hook used in selling cars.  Donnie probably has a markup of 15 - 25 points. He could sell it to you at the agreed price and be out very little money if any at all.  If Donnie were a standup guy he wouldn't have tried to use a disclaimer on his website that doesn't even apply to this situation.  When a disclaimer says prices subject to change, this means that the listed price may not be correct and when you place your order you will be given the correct price.  Just my opinion.

He should have the right to change prices...and you have the right to get your deposit back and shop elsewhere. The proper thing for him to do was honor the agreement IF he was not losing money, and to have come to an agreement on increased costs otherwise (offering to split the increase is good...) Good business is to sell it to you at his cost to keep the customer happy...an event not often seen these days.

Sounds like a deal @$420.  Botach, who has bad service but good prices, is charging $541

[url]http://store.yahoo.com/botach/surm9verfors.html[/url]


Surefire-M900[b]$511.00[/b]
Select: M900AM900AB [b]Add $30 (+30) [/b]



[img]http://us.st3.yimg.com/store5.yimg.com/I/botach_1673_8117[/img]

Would it be okay if someone on our EE site accepted payment for an item listed (not exactly a paper contract mind you) and then refused to ship the product without you sending more cash?

I know it isn't exactly the same scenario, but the basics are the same.  A price was agreed upon, the seller gave instructions for a certain amount of money to be sent, and after the buyer had complied with all of the seller's directions, he changed the price.

Donny forgot rule #1 for selling an out of inventory or special order piece --- make sure you know what YOUR cost is before you quote a price.  If he would have done that, there would have been no surprises.

Just my .02


Saleen

As others have said,

Donnie has no control over "Surefire" changing their prices and like all vendors must pass on those costs to his buyers.

On the flip side. What if "Surefire", had lowered their price, by 20%. Would you, still want to pay the $350, instead of the lower price of $280?

I have never purchased anything from Donnie, but everything I've ever heard about Donnie, has always been positive.

As "Nukem" stated, talk with Donnie and see if he is willing to split the difference.

my 1 cent (the other penny went to the IRS) [:)]

I don't think Donnie is being unreasonable or unethical, HOWEVER I think that for the sake of repeat business, he should honor the price he gave you.  Sure, he has the right to say "I need more money for this product" but if he wants to create positive word-of-mouth, he should honor the price he already agreed to charge you.

my dealings wiht donnie have been exceptional. and it sounds as it he has been up front and honest with you. considering that, why are you trying to force the issue?  do you have any reason to believe he knew of the price increase prior and "baited" you in to the deal with the lower price?

from your description, i believe donnie has acted in good faith and your expectations are excessive. ask for your deposit back and buy it elsewhere...if you can find a better deal.

SAB

Re bid at other vendors, compare price and deliveries, make your choice.

I had a similar difficulty with a vendor on this board, decided to pay anyway and found out that over the long haul that his continued good service, accurate information, problem solving and reasonable prices have more than made up for any question of monies paid.  

He can get a lot of good customers, while you probably cannot find a lot of good vendors.

This is not a flame, just food for thought!

After looking around on the  web at $420 it looks like he has already taken a bite out of what he would have sold it to you . I can't find a place to buy one under $510 anywhere else .

I agree with eurotrash.  My dealings with Donnie have been exceptional.  When he ordered my CQ/T for me, it came in at a lower price than he quoted me, and he passed the savings on to me.

He does not work at standard margins, as you can see if you compare his prices with anyone else, even SWFA.  Donnie has been extremely helpful and responsive, and after dealing with him I honestly find it hard to believe that he would intentionally deceive any of his customers.

It is pretty much in the middle like the poll.  

Donnie is a really reputable guy to deal with...so he is getting hosed by surfire.  

Then the issue is a legal ethical thing.  By taking the deposit it is a contract.  Practically speaking it would cost you much more to ever enforce it.  He'll probably give you your deposit back if you don't like the deal.  Maybe you could force him to give you the price.  But next time he might not be inclined to give you his absolute best price (and his prices are usually pretty good).

So ethically I would give him a break and have him call surefire and see if they could work something out.  But if everything stays as it is now.  I'd give him a break and either pay the amount or split the difference shoot I just wasted $70 writing this reply..so I better get back to work.

[stick]

[size=5] [blue] Plain and simple!!!! [/size=5] [/blue]

I don't see the invoice as a contract. If he charged you the full price and marked it "paid in full", you might be able to make that claim. Would you feel better if the paper were marked "receipt", instead?

If he is unable to recover his costs, one or more of the following will happen: (1) he stops ordering/backordering things (2) he jacks up the basic price to cover potential price increases (3) he can go out of business. In any event, your great deal is a thing of the past.

If I were arbitrating this, I'd say he should do two things: (1) put some weasel-worded notice on his invoice that this is not a contract, and prices are subject to change, or maybe just call it what it is, a receipt for your deposit. (2) I'd require him to eat the price increase on the percentage of the product for which you had paid (under 30%), bringing the price to about $400. And I'd agree that if either of you were unhappy with that, he could return your money, less any restocking fee charged by Sure-Fire, unless he can sell the product immediately.

I'd say work a compromise.

You may be right, and if he were a larger outfit, I'd say definitely fight it.

It's very possible that he took your order without checking prices in advance.

While it's lame to point to his disclaimer on a done deal, (vs. a potential order) take into consideration that if he's doing this after work, it might be hard for him to contact the vendor while his wheels are in motion.

Ask him to sell it to you at cost or near-cost with a promise not to tell others what the final price was.  Sure, he probably goofed, but also may not be in a great position to absorb the difference

I will not attempt to speak for Donnie nor Sableco but will respond as I believe the situation should be handled.

I believe since a 'DEPOSIT' was requested and 'FUNDED' that you should receive the original quoted price.

As to the legality of such postings as "Not responsible for lost items," or "Prices subject to change without notice" - neither of these seemingly solid-lock statements hold much legal water.

(Mine is a personal opinion and not a legal opinion.)

[b]ABOVE ALL ELSE, LET YOUR ACTIONS BE HONORABLE TO ALL THAT YOU DEAL WITH![/b]

I am going through a similar situation with a vendor on the exact same item. The price originally quoted has gone up during the transaction period, but I had already paid the bill and the item had been shipped before I was told of the new, higher price. I have offered to pay the difference, split the difference, etc... but the vendor has not replied to me yet.

The difference between $350 and $420 is $70, a relatively small sum when it comes to a man's word and a man's honor. I agree that he should honor the original price(which you had both agreed to upon at the receipt of your deposit and issuance of the product invoice), but you on the other hand should offer to pay or split the difference. Yeah, you may be out $70 or $0 on top of what you have already paid, but you did the honorable thing! Your actions will be above reproach and the vendor will likely act in similar fashion. I hope that this works out for both of you, and that everyone remembers that personal integrity(especially in the course of business) is worth more than the price of a flashlight.

    The last part of this post is very revelant to this situation. Even though it goes against what the first part of the post says.

    Everybody who doesn't agree with Donnie's actions claims that when he took the deposit. It was a contract. It seems to me that his statement about price fluctuation was also part of the contract. Think about it.......  Besides, if Surefire went up 50% on this product instead of 20%. Would you still expect him to eat the big green weenie?

   You have heard countless numbers of people say nothing but good things about Donnie. So you know it is not a character issue like it would be if rguns was involved.(I hope this doesn't start another one of THOSE threads....)
I think your issue is with Surefire. They raised the price for no reason, not Donnie. You should e-mail Surefire and bitch at them for gouging. Donnie is not ignorant or mean enough to purposely gouge someone on this board. If you haven't noticed.... Word travels pretty fast on this forum [:D]

   I am biased. I have bought from Donnie before and was treated well enough to do business again with him.
 
   SAB.... I felt your poll choices were biased. Not a slam, just an observation. Check the prices for this product elsewhere. You might find that you are still getting a helluva deal.

I have done bidness with Donnie in the past, and I will have to say, he gave me a good price on my ML2, railgrabber, and gooseneck mount.
Nonetheless, he accepted money as a down payment on the price agreed upon.  Donnie needs to do the "right thing", and eat the cost on this one.  The "prices subject to change" policy , I feel applies to posted advertisements only. When money changes hands, you just entered a contract.  Donnie has a faithful pool of clients here, he needs to chalk this one up to experience and learn from it.

Well, I don't know Donnie, but I do know that by accepting the deposit, and having a balance due is quite a contract.

Take buying a home, you put a deposit, then you pay the agreed upon price at closing.

Yout can bet your bippy that had the wholesale price gone down, there would be no discussion, or notification on the deal.

Once money has been put down, I would expect the price to be locked.

The last time I was in a similar situation -- a business had forgotten to include the price of a part in a quote they gave me -- that business went through with the sale at the loss.

After which, I gave them the difference, since it was a small shop and an honest mistake, and I could afford it a lot better than the owner could.

You placed a deposit on said item, he ordered the item, therefore you should get it at that price. [b]PLAIN AND SIMPLE[/B] Its a contract since you put money down and now have an invoice of what is owed. If the price went lower, you can bet you would still have paid the same price.

Also-- I believe when they state "prices subject to change without notice" only applies to prices BEFORE an actual attempt at purchasing the item. This is to cover price changes in catalogs and web pages, since they can sometimes be out of date.

If you put money down on it, then the price is now locked. I would never do business with someone who jacks up the price on you after you have had an agreement, whether written or verbal, especially since you put down money on it. He can take a loss in his profits, and blame the vendor for jacking up his rates and not honoring the price when he placed the order when it was backordered.

There was a thread here about six months or so ago with a little different circumstance.  Someone had bought some parts for what looked like a fair deal.  He received the parts then discovered what he received were worth many times more than what he paid.  He called the man back and explained what happened.  The seller said a deal a deal, period!  Everyone said what a good guy.  Now someone buys something with a down payment and the price changes.  Now half the people say, "he has the right to change his price".  Others say a deal is a deal.
I own a machine shop and must bid on many jobs.  Most of the time I make money.  There are times when something does not go according to plan.  Heat treater or coater ups their prices or I must buy a full length of stock instead of the 12 inches I need.  I have to eat all that.  I made a deal and that is my WORD.  The comment from someone else about you having the mentality of being owed is simply wrong.  You made a simple deal and only want what was agreed upon.  Nothing more.
However, there is something to be said for seller.  Great reputation, service and just plain honest.  There are times when doing what is expedient is not ones normal business practice and basic personality.  Reserving the right to change a listed price is just business, but changing after the transaction should be done with good communication and solid reasons.  If it is acceptable to the buyer fine, if not the deal should still stand.  In the end I believe this will be resolved in a good way and both parties will be pleased.  I also think this little discussion will add to Donnie's fine reputation and business.

Your contract is binding and you should definately stand your ground.  I'm not a person that pities people who make a bad deal, especially businesses.  You deposit locked in the price and his "prices can change" crap only refers to advertising, NOT after a price is locked due to a deposit.  DO NOT PAY MORE and do not cancel your order.  If he charges your credit card more than the agreed upon price, contact your credit card co and contest the charge, sending them the deposit receipt showing they overcharged.  What they are doing is illegal and is bad business, I'd make them honor the offer.

I’m surprised there is almost an even split in the poll.  This one is not really even much into the “gray area.”  Plain and simple, as a seller, once you accept payment or monetary deposit that is termed consideration and you are now bound by the terms of the contract at that time.  “Prices subject to change” does NOT apply here, that is only a disclaimer applying to a change in actual price versus advertised price, prior to sale.

I’m sure Donnie is a stand up guy, but the moment he accepted $100 (consideration) from the buyer, he is legally and ethically obligated to sell for the originally agreed upon final price.  This has nothing to do with whether the seller is losing money on the deal, that is irrelevant.  The seller entered into a binding contract and must adhere to the terms just as the buyer did, and learn the lesson afterwards.  In fact, not only can the buyer demand the refund of the deposit, the buyer can sue the seller for breach of contract and recover the difference between the agreed upon price and what the item or service must be purchased for from elsewhere.  

So, not only is Sableco ethically obligated to adhere to the terms, they are legally obligated to do the same.  You live, you learn.  I would hope Sableco does the right thing, both ethically and legally.

I bought a Leupold CQ/T from Donny some time ago as it was about $50 bucks cheaper than the other guys.A month later ,after I got my scope, the other guys lowered their price. Donny lowered the price again and rebated me the difference on my next purchase. If I were you I would approach him on this and let him know you are not happy with the price
increase and why...I would be surprised if he did not make it right by you...As long as you are straight with him, I have found him to be a pretty decent sort of guy. I've also noticed that the guys that post their gripes on here seem to get action.

Donnie should honor his deal. First off he took the deposit to lock the deal in. This benefited Donnie by guaranteeing him that he would not be stuck with a product should the customer change his mind because he found it somewhere else cheaper. By honoring this deal Donnie would most likely only lose his profit margin and not a future customer and he would have avoided the negative PR on this board and the possible lose of many future customers. Donnie should also raise hell with Surefire for putting him in this situation. As consumers we also need to remember that Surefire has recently enacted a policy that sucks for us. We need to not purchase Surefire products unless we absolutely have to have them. We all should contact Surefire and let them know our displeasure with their new policy. We need to let them know that if they do not change back to a consumer friendly policy they are going to loose a big part of their consumer base. Please let us know how this is resolved.

Some of you seem to be confusing the legal & ethical duty of a merchant w/ reputation.  If the Pope himself is your seller, if he takes a sum of money as a deposit for a piece of merchandise for an agreed price that's it.  He's bound.  The price was locked in when he took your deposit, unless there actually was a clause or understanding that if the price changed, he could refund your deposit & the deal would be off unless you wanted to pay the difference.  If not, too bad.  If Donnie is as great a guy as the rest of you say, he won't try to pull this BS, and he'll honor your contract.  In the future, maybe Donnie

In my experience, if a vendor (ex. Surefire) is going to initiate a price increase, it's common practice to give the customer (Donnie) a heads up.  This allows the customer to make necessary changes and clean-up existing orders in the pipeline.  If Surefire feels they don't need to give any warning, I find that unfortunate and wonder if they're getting too big for their britches.  I sincerely hope this works out for both parties.

Tim

[url]www.sableco.net[/url]

I think once he took the deposit the deal was locked in.  Like somebody said, if Surefire had lowered the cost by $50 would Donnie have passed the savings on or considered it a gift from G-d?  I have never bought from Donnie, so can't speak to that.  

If I was a regular customer of his and he explained the situation, I probably would have offered to buy it at cost so he didn't take a big hit.

This one is simple. When he took your $100 deposit the deal was done. You can force him to sell it to you for the agreed upon price. However good luck on such a small dollar amount it just isn't worth pursuing. As far as him selling at low margins and he's a great guy....tough. He is in business and he sells the product to make a profit not to be your buddy. What would he do if you decided not to take the item? My guess is you would play hell getting your deposit back.

Nope-- that would be illegal to take someone's money, then change the price on them. Can you say BAIT AND SWITCH???

Obviously neither of you have ever dealt with Donnie.
Of all the vendors I have used, he has been by far the most upstanding, and always has had the best prices. Also has gone out of his way to make sure I was happy.

Good gun-suppliers who aren't four-barreled, chrome plated, four on the floor assholes seem to be fewer and farther between these days. Let's see if we can quibble over "the principle" of a few dollars and then wonder why we end up left with those for which customer service really means "shove it in and break it off" and then "ship it when we damn well get around to it". I mean, God forbid that the man actually have the audacity to want to cover the costs of his business. What is he thinking????

My advice? If Donnie is increasing the price, I'll BET you it's close to break-even for him. He might clear a few bucks.  Talk with him and try to work something out, or, if you just can't stomach that,  get your deposit back and see if you can find the light elswhere for less. Bet you'll have a hard time.
I hope this is resolved in a satisfactory manner for both of you, as you seem to be a good guy, and I know Donnie is. Hope it works out for you.  Best of luck!!!!
Pit

There are laws in the U.S. that cover business transactions, UCC - Uniform Commercial Code

This sort of problem must clearly be covered & buyer & seller should live up to it. I have a copy & will see if I can find section dealing with orders & deposits.

If surefire didnt give anybody a heads up....
Hopefully another company will come along here an make an equally tough light system at a decent price...I'm buying
SAB. I started in the survival supply business back in the 70s ...a little ahead of my time lol. I have delt with a lot of bad vendors..and slick companies especially the ones waving the flag while trying to sell one to you. Or claiming to be part of a brotherhood and having the lowest prices while putting it to you.. Donny is one of the really fine human beings out there..He has been in training this past week and I think next week as well so he doesnt even get into the shop till past 5PM CST..Give him a call..I am willing to bet he will make this good by you...if he doesnt...
Hell I am willing to chip in a few bucks to make it up to you...anybody else?
Time for a do right by SAB telethon?.....I think you will make out ok...hang in there...

Yeah-- like all of us...

I want to chime in again with my 2cents worth and say that I would like Donnie to respond here before any of use make harsh jugdements of this deal. I hope he honors this deal with SAB. I have to tell you all that Donnie misquoted me $30.00 low recently on a Surefire 500a but he honored the price and did not make a big deal out of it. But I again hope that everyone will look at Surefires new BOHICA pricing policy and raise hell with them.

No need for that - the increased price wouldn't kill me.  To me, it's just the principle of the deal.  If I "shake hands" on a deal that goes down the tubes, I consider it my loss and accept it as an expensive lesson.  I wouldn't think of changing the terms of the agreement once that "hand shake" occurs.

The only purpose of this poll was to determine if my principles were "normal".  I've purposely stayed out of the discussion because I don't want to sound like a whiner - I really just wanted to gauge my ideas with you all.

Like I said, the deal with Donnie was very pleasant until the SureFire price issue occured.  It is not my intent to flame Donnie, or to give him a hard time publicly.  I tried to state just the facts of the transaction, without a bias.  I realize that there probably is some bias, but it's challenging to stay neutral...

I've been dealing with Donnie privately, and I will keep it that way (and I hope that Donnie will, too).  I will let you all know if I am satisfied with the final agreement that we come to, but I will not be participating in this discussion further because I feel all it does is muddy the waters.

I want to thank all of you for your opinions (both supportive of my side and Donnie's side), and I'm confident that Donnie and I will come to an agreement.

Regards,
SAB

In business, price increases from a manufacturer are both inevitable and also unpredictable.  The issue in this case is what duty does the distributor (Donnie) have to the customer (SAB) on an out of stock item.  In my personal and professional life, I would never expect one of my vendors to loose money on a transaction with me.  For if that happens too often, the vendor disappears.  

I think Donnie has proven himself to be an honorable vendor to the members of this board and as such I would propose that his only duty is offer SAB a refund of his deposit.  SAB would then be free to buy the light from another supplier.  This item is not a scarce pre-ban rifle.  Donnie did not crawfish the deal and sell the product to a higher bidder.  

Instead, the light supplier changed the price Donnie had to pay for the light.  Is this something Donnie could have forseen or prevented?  I think not.  Does anyone really question Donnie's motives in raising the price of the light on this specific deal?  I think not.  This item is a commodity and can be bought elsewhere.  Donnie is not the only supplier and as such, he is subject to the laws of competition and supply and demand.   So, SAB should be given the option of completing the deal at the new price, or Donnie should return his deposit money and SAB can buy the exact same light from someone else.  

Would you really feel good about a receiving product you knew your vendor lost money selling to you?  Is that an honorable conclusion to this matter?  I think not.

Regards,
Gary  

No offense, but why didn't you just do this in the first place???

I agree that in business when you take a deposit for an order you have executed a contract for that merchandise and are obligated to supply it for the price agreed to.  Donnie should just end this and ship the unit for the stated price.  The real sh**y thing going on here is Surfire's attempt to gouge the public.  They have a hot product in high demand and they are basically just amping up thier prices till the demand flow equals thier production capability.  Hmmmmm  sound a little like OPEC dont it?????

I chose option C).

You're a (insert a slightly-harsh term here)for hashing this out on a public forum.  

At the very least you could have left the vendors name out of it.

SAB- Posting this thread on the boards damn sure is not dealing with Donnie privately. Now I really want to hear Donnie's side of this.

Agreed.  I wonder about the motives also, though I'm glad you mentioned the name of the vendor as I was made aware of another good one.

The upside is we've heard from a number of *very* satisfied customers of Donnie's.  Based on that, I'd buy from him on that basis of supporting the small, quality dealer with a great reputation.  We certainly need more like Donnie.

I will bet that Donnie honors his original price, based on his reputation as stated here.  Any takers?

Please let us know the conclusion of this issue.

Edited to add:  If I were Donnie, I'd eat the difference and sell it to you at the original price.  If I were you, I'd insist on paying the difference, especially if I had a need for future purchases or a long-term relationship with such a vendor.  I think either action would pay off in the future in many ways.