this probably should never have been brought to the boards and i hope donnie doesnt take a beating. thankfully, a lot of others are standing up for him. i hope he refunds the 100.00 and never deals with SAB again.

many of you maintain the "deal is a deal" philosophy and that the orignal price should be honored. that is a total load. a deposit is hardly a "deal".  how many of you have changed your mind and asked for a deposit back? i know i've refunded several over the years. the idea of saying  " a deal is a deal" and sticking someone wiht somethign the could no longer afford or want never even crossed my mind. it works both ways.

leeches....

OK, everyone.  Since this has turned into a public incident, I'll give my version.  First, when this product was ordered, I knew that there could possibly be a price increase which normally occurs around the first of the year.  What I hadn't planned on was an $80.00 increase!  I was shocked at the huge price increases that Surefire made.  Had this been a $5.00-$10.00 increase that would have normally occurred,you would never had heard about this.  I am not your average retailer.  I started this business 5 years ago to try and give my customers the product they want at the lowest possible price, and provide good service on top of it.  I also read that several of you posted "Well, if his price came down, you can bet he wouldn't lower his price."  All I can say to those who posted this is that you don't know me at all.  I've done this more times than I can count, and many of those customers are on this board.  Now, some things are out of my control, such as manufacturers that require dealers to sell at certain minimum prices, or no discounts at all.  I must abide by their rules.  At least this way, all retailers are on a level field.  Anyway, I go out of my way to give great deals.  I didn't, however, start this business to LOSE money, although it's happened several times.  In this case, it was just such a large loss on a very difficult to get product, that it will definitely affect me.  What the buyer didn't post here, is that I offered to sell him the unit at dead cost, and I would pay for the shipping, or I would immediately refund the deposit. This apparently isn't good enough, although I thought it was quite fair.  He gets the product at the lowest dealer cost, and I eat the shipping.  Most of you know that this is not my main source of employment.  I work 2 full time jobs to support my family.  I'm not looking for sympathy here, I just want you to know the situation.  I am not in a position to take large losses on sales.  I will make good on this price, but I will now have to make policy changes. I only took the deposit from this customer due to the difficulty in  getting this product due to military demand.  That way when I actually get one of these, I can say who has first "dibs" on this product.  This has now come back to "haunt" me, and the following changes will be in place.  I will no longer accept deposits on any orders.  Those of you that have deposits on the Rock River Chrome lined uppers, I will be sending your uncashed deposit checks back to you, and will email you when your uppers are ready.  I will also no longer give any estimates on when product that is out of stock will arrive.  I have been burned by one manufacturer repeatedly on this, and may quite carrying their line.  I will be re-evaluating my pricing strategy, and may have to raise prices on some items to help absorb losses.  I will also no longer match prices on other retailers who advertise out of stock merchandise at low prices to quantify orders.  I apologize to my loyal customers if any of this affects you, and regret having to do it.  I do not have a degree in retail, and sometimes it's a live and learn experience.  I will still do my utmost to deliver product at the lowest possible price, and offer good service doing it, but not at the cost of losing money for my efforts.  I hope you understand.  Thank you.

Donnie Pridemore
[url]www.sableco.net[/url]

This sounds an awful like what Bushmaster tried to pull on many people right before the "assault weapon" ban. If you were around back then, the stripped lowers were about $100, but BM decided NOT to fulfill PREPAID orders and instead was only selling completed weapons. When it got down to the wire BM tried to make people pay an additional $300 PER RECEIVER, even after the company had been collectig interest on the order payments after MONTHS of saying "the orders will go out in 2 weeks".

In your case, both parties agreed upon a price, it was put into writing, and money changed hands. He should honor the contract.

PAS Way ta go dude....you won....and we didnt even have to hold a telethon
or raffle off any thermold mags..
What did you have to do? call the Illinois Attorney General?? that sure woulda fixed him eh?
If the bros only new the truth eh?

Good enough for me.  Buyer should have:

1.  Kept this private like he was "trying" to do; and

2.  Accepted one of the above settlement options, understanding the circumstances.

Now we all get screwed because an honest man got shafted by a supplying company.  Because of this he has to cover his ass, which is contrary to his whole business -- which was cutting out the BS and giving us the bests possible prices.

Donnie, I hope you chalk this one up to "experience" and don't have to make substantial business changes.

I will buy from Donnie again.  He's one of the good guys.

PitViper,

I have dealt with Donnie a couple of times and have always been satisfied and pleased by how the transaction went.

SAB,

Even if your poll will indicate that Donnie should honor the price that you guys agreed on, would you feel good knowing that you got what you want in a deal where one of the party involved got screwed??

Honestly, I believe that for a deal to be successful, all parties involved should walk away happy. Since Donnie already offered to sell it to you at cost and pay the shipping himself, isn't this enough??? Do you have to insist that he sell you the light at a huge loss even if you know that it was the manufacturer and not Donnie who was at fault??

tsk! tsk! tsk! And to add insult to injury, you have to mention that you did not want to take this public...

Ditto.

Pit

I don't really have an opinion on the deal, I can see both sides of it and could go either way. Sometimes sh1t just happens and you gotta deal with it. I'm sure everyone will get over it if it's not a frequent occurrence.

What I will say is that I've bought twice from Donnie (largely on the reputation he has from this board) and I have one major complaint....the telephone line is *always* busy with people trying to buy stuff! ;-)

I ended up having to send a message by email and he called me back within 30 minutes, and this was at 8PM or so. Pretty cool indeed.

I'll definitely buy from him again. Seemed like a good guy on the phone and no BS. Far too rare these days.

I've only bought from Donnie once, but just from that, I KNOW he's a straight-up guy, and won't rip anybody off. I ordered an ARMS #39A2, and a Hakko sight. We agreed on a price, but I had to wait for the cash. When I got the money, I e-mailed him that I had it, and would put it in the mail the following day. He then shipped my order *BEFORE I EVEN MAILED THE MONEY ORDER* There just isn't a better guy to do business with.

Donnie is one of the most, if not THE most upstanding, honest and reliable vendors that we have available to deal with. All of my dealings with this guy have been very favorable and his service has been great. This complaint has no business being aired here -  it should not have been made public. I would assume that SAB has burned this bridge behind him.

There are not many vendors that could stand this kind of  scrutiny on the site. Donnie's one that can. I'll bet this thread increases his sales. Alls well that ends well!
Hobe

After hearing Donnie's side of the story, I would tend to agree.

SAB did not keep this private, even though he said he would. Instead, he told us a partial recollection of what happened. He could have at least left the vendors name out of it, unless there was no resolution...

I must also note, that if I place a deposit on a house, in the contract it lists that they can refund my money for things like cost increases that are not in their control, etc.

I am not sure if Donnie's contract (invoice) already states something like this, but I would definately add some kind of statement to my future invoices, that a deposit may be refunded if prices rise, item is not in stock within X days, etc. Then, Donnie could still allow deposits on future purchases...

This is why I remove my rather curt response to SAB (that and the fact that you all just jumped on the bash Donnie bandwagon & I for one wanted no association with any of this) [b]Which is it Energizer?[/b] All of you should be ashamed of the crap you posted and any of you who'd every dealt with THE MAN should have know better.

Personally I printed out this whole mess and tacked it on the wall up here at work so I can remember some of you who responded with no reguard to who SAB was and whom he was bashing.

I thought long and hard before I sent my 60 bucks into AR-15.com (mailed it earlier this week) and this was one the main reasons. A [b]man[/b] when he has a problem he deals with the source of his problem, he doesn't go whining to anyone who'll listen about how he got screwd. (and before one of you twits mouth off, I have been threaten before (I was 23) and those who inform me of the threat were astounded that I wasted no time in finding the person (former felon w/ violent record), for if you've got a problem w/ me and choose to go behind my back instead of dealing directly w/ me, you'll find me looking ya in the face. I'll be damn if I'll wait around for you to drink up the courage (which was exactly where I found that a-hole), I don't have to look over my shoulder, my dad taught me a man deals w/ problems in life by meeting them head-on)  None of this was necessary and I can only assume most of you knew nothing about Donnie to begin with.

If it appears I'm angry your damn right, Those of you who think I'm an asshole, that's okay too. I AM and a rednecked one to boot. Donnie is a man who deals as squarely with folks as they come and it chaps me that some whiner can cause such a fuss.

For those of you with no dog in this hunt, my sincerest apologies to the rest of ya (ya know who you are) I for one won't forget.

Mike

I've never dealt with Sableco, But I'm probably going to by an upper from Donnie, after what has been said about him.

As for this deal, if he ordered the item, and was charged more that the previous price, with no prior warning from Surefire, then Donnie should raise the price just to cover the cost of the item.

No dealer who puts as much effort into helping people with minimal profit should get screwed. If he is just trying to cover the cost of the item, then pay up. You are STILL getting one hell of a deal.

Try getting the kind of service people say Donnie gives at most other on line dealers and see what happens.

Alot of people advertise out of stock items with the price disclaimer KNOWING that they will get a decent profit. But from what I've read, Donnie doesn't do that .

[smoke]

   I think it should be noted that Donnie is not the only (dealer) on this forum. It should be brought up that other dealers comments could contain biased comments just to steer business away from Donnie. Mainly because they know someone like Donnie who seems to be after the HONEST buck is a danger to them.

   I have only bought once from him (an $800 order). I have a hard time spending that much money without seeing the person face to face. After speaking with him for about 30 seconds my fear dissappeared.

  I hope Donnie knows that this unneeded open  discussion of his character and business dealings have not hurt him in the least. As a matter of fact, it is obvious by alot of the posts that it did nothing but increase respect for him and probably upped his order total for this month. Also added a few new customers. Don't change ALL your business policies. Personal or otherwise .....just make sure and watch your six.

Entropy,

As I stated in my earlier post, Donnie did lower my price on a CQ\T when his wholesale cost was lowered.  

I think everyone needs to wait and hear Donnie's side of the story.  

Sorry about the out of sync post, I didn't see that page three icon.

Once again, Donnie will get all of my future business.

I am a bit confused on what you mean by, "[b]Which is it Energizer?[/b]" I believe I already stated how it is-- if you put money down on an item, then the price is no longer subject to change, unless BOTH parties agree, or unless the invoice states that the deposit can be refunded due to availability and price increases which are out of the vendors control.

SAB posed a question, and with the facts presented, we all gave our responses. I see no problem with siding with SAB, and neither do several others. He is correct, but it is up to him to work it out with Donnie, not us. He brought it to a public forum to see if others had his same viewpoint. I am a little upset that he did not disclose everything (since he took it private), but he did present the basics, which is all that matters. He also should have left the vendor's name out of it, but oh well...

Also, for someone (i.e. YOU) who "wanted no association with any of this", you just contradicted yourself by posting your message.

Explain to us why you removed your "curt response to SAB"? That also indicates that you were wanting to be associated with this since you had a previous response... hmmm...

If you do not want any association, do no post in the first place.

We have a right to our opinions, just like you have a right to yours. Don't blame us for creating this topic. You are posting here as well.

That is an excellent point. I never really thought about that scenario.


I might also mention that if SAB had not mentioned the vendor's name, many people in this heated debate would not be as upset, since it would have been a "what if" topic. And, they may have also taken a different side on the issue since they would not have known it was Donnie.

I agree with you in theory, but I feel as if we here at AR15.com (and it's vendors) are a bit of a community.  I know it sounds a bit sappy but it's true to a point.

That being said, I would not choose to pressure a vendor into a deal in which he LOSES money.  Two reasons, first that action would officially blackball me with that particular vendor (and any others that happen to hear about it).  Second, being part of this community, I think it is 'dishonorable' to do so.  I'm using that word since, SAB obviously believes that it is 'dishonorable' for Donnie to not take a loss on this deal.

Would I be happy paying the extra cost?  Hell no, but at least I would know that this vendor would not have to cover the difference out of pocket.  IMHO, it's the right thing to do.

It is obvious to me why SAB didn't keep this matter off of the boards, he wanted leverage against Donnie.  He could have first tried to settle the matter with Donnie and then report that outcome, or he could have started this thread without mentioning the vendor's name.  Instead he came here and posted what I interpret as an "F-you, see what happens when I don't get my way" thread.

Outcome:  SAB saves a few bucks now (probably will cost him in the future if Donnie chooses not to sell to him again), Donnie is out a few bucks and has to rethink his business practices.

More important to the rest of us, is that a reputable vendor with GREAT prices may not be as convenient or as economical to deal with in the future...

SAB's whole whiny "I want something for nothing, even if it puts one of the better dealers on this sight out of business" Pisses me off!

The minute, the new Trijicon TriPower Sights are in, I'm throwing Sableco some of my business.

I think many of the persons replying to this "poll" are missing the point. This gun stuff is supposed to be FUN. Would most of us enjoy our new flashlight, rifle, mags,etc. if we knew we browbeat a supplier who gives good prices and service into taking a loss on an item, the prices of which he has no control? Personally I would shut up, pay the extra money and be glad I could even get the damned thing! This gun stuff is not like buying a car from GM, or a fridge from Sears. After 911 ammo jumped drasticly did we bitch? yeagh, we did, but we paid whatever it took 'cause we wanted it for our fun toys. When the UPS man comes, all this bs about money seems to go away and we are just glad to have our "stuff". Leagle shmegal, leave the money grubing to the money grubbers and lets go put some brass on the ground!               Pete

First off Donnie is a great guy, I have dealt with him before and will again.
I will not try and tell him or anyone else how to run their business, I own one myself and know that stuff like this happens. Taking a hit on sales is not what its all about. Again, I have had nothing but great dealings with Donnie and hope to again, its unfortunate that this is a lose lose situation.

This next part might be inappropriate to put on this thread but good stuff deserves press just like the bad:

Last week I bought a Surefire M900A from Ryan at Blueline Gear. I went to his web site and saw that he had the cheapest prices of anyone out there for the item. (I bought mine for $380 delivered) They were out but he ordered one for me and in about 4 days from when I ordered it I received it. Super fast don't you think? I told him that he had the best prices out there and I was going to tell everyone that I knew that might be wanting one. In the box with the unit he enclosed a note telling me that Surefire had raised their prices and that although he took a serious hit on the unit he was going to honor the web price to me and everyone else that ordered. I suspect he told me that because I was still telling people that he best deal going. The bottom line is that I did NOT put any money down, I did not have an invoice stating a price. Ryan took my order and told me the total price, he then ordered the unit that night, found out that the prices had been raised, $80+ his cost BUT he STILL honored his advertised price. He did change his price on his website immediately though to prevent this from happening again with more customers but the bottom line is he DID sell it to me and the others for the add price. Unbelievable I know, Uncommon I know. Would I have done it?... I dunno, I would like to think I had the integrity to but its unlikely, if a guy put money down than yes, without a doubt but under my circumstances I doubt it. I can only suspect that Ryan has been on the other side of the fence and didn't want a petty issue damage his reputation or his honor. That was the first time I had dealt with Ryan but it will not be the last, there are probably not to many dealers out there with that kinda dedication to their word and customers.

Legally, you had a contract at the agreed upon price.  Donny repudiated the contract and made you a counter-offer.  Donny breached the contract.  Contracts are often breached for any number of reasons to include that it just makes financial sense to do so. There is really nothing inherently wrong with that. The question becomes: what is your recourse?  You won't sue him for the little amount in dispute, that's for sure.  It really boils down to a customer service issue.  

Does Donny want to get the reputation of making deals that go bad because he can't honor the agreed upon prices?  No.  He should have a serious talk with his supplier.  But, prices go up and he may not be able to do anything about it with respect to the supplier.  If Donny wants to maintain the appearance of a stand up businessman whom honors his agreements, he should have it in mind that eating losses is sometimes just a cost of doing business.  

You can either get back your deposit and go somewhere else; feel bad about Donny or not.  Or, you can pay the enhanced price knowing that real life sucks and feel bad about Donny, or not.  

Edited for Spelling.

JC, it may be that Ryan has the funding to take an $80 loss on an item, but from what Donnie said about working 2 full time jobs, and doing the guns stuff to help out the AR community, it doesn't sound like he can afford to take the hit.
He makde and offer to either refund the deposit, or sell at HIS cost plus pick up the shipping. Seems reasonable to me.

[smoke]

Hi Hydguy, perhaps you should re-read my post again. JC

I wasn't busting your chops JC, just pointing out that the situations may not be the same.

[smoke]

I talked to Donnie 6 months ago about the same light and he made it very clear they were hard to come by in any large amounts due to Military purchases.  If I made a deposit, I would be on the list.  If not it ws a wait and see game.  If the price had gone up, I would have paid it or cancelled my order.  But the key is I trust Donnie.

Because Donnie has low overhead he can pass it on to us in the form of reduced price.  In the past he has at times sold for less than what he posts on his site.

The deposit guarantees you a "place in a line" for a product that is in high demand.  He has the right to pass on an increase in materials cost.  You will note he did not raise his labor or overhead cost.  You had the option of not making a deposit and buying one when it was in stock.  His orders for that light have been greater then the supply.

Now, after giving my lawyerly opinion, and after having read Donnie's post, here's my personal opinion.  

I have dealt with Donnie and had a good experience.  His post shows that he was put in a bad position by his supplier.  He cannot eat big losses and continue his business.  So, under those circumstances, he made the best compromise offer of just passing on the enhanced cost and not passing on any profit margin on top of that.  

If he explained all of that to me, I may not be happy about the situation but I would not be unhappy with Donnie or his way of doing business.  

But, I may or may not go through with the purchase depending on whether I thought that the new deal continued to provide value.  If not, Donnie should (and I'm guessing would) be willing to give you a refund on the deposit and thus kill the deal.  No harm, no foul.  He probably has other orders for the same product anyway and can sell it someone else at the higher price without all of the hassle.  

Also, it sounds like Donnie is taking steps to avoid this kind of thing in the future.  That is further evidence of his good faith efforts not to even appear to be ripping off his customers.  

Give him a break on this one.    

True to his reputation, Donnie has bent over backwards to resolve this issue.  Donnie agreed to take a loss on this sale in the interest of customer satisfaction.  I am a very satisfied customer and will continue to do business with Donnie and Sableco in the future!

Thanks, Donnie!
SAB

SAB

Remember The Golden Rule

Unlike yourself, Donnie sounds like a pretty reasonable guy. Maybe he'll even be kind enough to continue to accept business from a cheap, miserable bastard like you. Lord knows I wouldn't.

Spoken like a true troll.  If you know anything about contracts, SAB had every right to purchase the equipment at that price.  Donnie did the only thing he could do...SELL AT THE CONTRACTED PRICE.  If a deposit had not been given, and the price had not been locked in, by contract, then Donnie could have done whatever the hell he wanted to.  If businesses want to makes sales on equipment they do not have, then THEY bear the risk of selling at a loss when their supplier screws them, not guys like SAB who paid for a product at a certain price.

What if SAB had the opportunity to purchase this from another vendor at the same price, but locked into SableCo because he wanted to give them the business, EVEN THOUGH the competitor had it in stock?  Then the competitor sold out and SAB was told, "so sad, too bad" by Donnie, would you feel the same way now?  In case you are slow, that's called opportunity loss.  SAB did the right thing, even though Donnie is a good guy.  

I'm really happy that Donnie came through on this one, I will be buying from him in the future, because he knows a thing or two about customer service! (Unlike RGuns!)

Something for nothing?  That implies that SAB did not pay.  

I'm sick of all these whiney brats who are jealous of the deal that SAB contracted for, go bitch about someone else, he did the right thing.

We resort to "contracts" and lawyer-like creatures when we lose sight of what it takes to be a decent human being in our dealings with others.

FWIW, Donnie doesn't sound like the kind of guy that needs to be reminded how to conduct his business decently.  I wonder how many deals like this one will change his way of doing business?

If you know anything about contracts, you'll understand that Donnie is now likely to add a bunch of fine print to his to protect himself from predatory companies like Surefire and unreasonable customers like SAB. Hopefully SAB sleeps well knowing that he browbeat a fellow enthusiast simply trying to help the rest of us out. Thanks.

Did SAB pass up other vendors? It sure doesn't sound like it to me.

If this how we are going to treat the best vendors and expect them to lose money, maybe R-GUNS is all the better we deserve.

Otherwise known as a lack of honor. Kind of like dragging this out in front of the whole forum to pressure Donnie.

"Honor"

"Personal honor"

"Personal responsibility"


Hmm, interesting concepts.

I could not have said this any better. I hope that SAB will not make an honest mistake here in the boards for when he does, I will be the first one to remind him of this episode.

Are you sure he was bent over *backwards*?  Sounds like he might have been bent over the other way on this deal...

[:D]





(Sorry, I couldn't resist... jes' kiddin' [:)] )

What is so bad about that?  If there were some fine print, maybe you and I wouldn't be discussing contracts right now.  I still believe that once a store takes your money, they are bound to the price on that receipt.  Otherwise, why are they taking any money in the first place?  If there is consideration given and a loss imposed upon SAB ($100), then why shouldn't Donnie be bound?  Of course this is all a moot point because Donnie did the right thing, but if he didn't take the money, or had it stated that changes in price can occur on rare items, then none of this would have happened and SAB wouldn't have felt fucked.

Thats what it comes down to.  If a consumer feels taken advantage of posts like this will arise.



I'm sure SAB will sleep well knowing that he wasn't taken advantage of.  I don't think anyone here was browbeaten either.  SAB kept us informed of the situation and noone's reputation was damaged.  In fact, I think people reading this thread are more impressed (as was I) with the way Donnie settled the problem. Maybe some of that fine print is needed, so lawyer-like creatures like myself don't jump on a deal gone bad which places liability on good guys like Donnie.

Just goes to show... Donnie is the man.  However, I'm not sure whether or not this should have hit the public forum.  Probably should have just been resolved between the parties involved.  On the bright side, positive PR for Donnie & Sableco, so I guess its not all bad.

[:)]

Viper Out