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Posted: 4/3/2006 4:33:24 PM EDT
What war on Christians?
By Cathy Young | April 3, 2006
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/04/03/what_war_on_christians?mode=PF

LAST WEEK, a conference in Washington, D.C., featuring prominent social conservatives including former House majority leader Tom DeLay (R-Texas), examined the ''War on Christians" -- not in Afghanistan where a man has narrowly escaped a death sentence for converting from Islam to Christianity or in communist dictatorships where preaching the gospel can land you in prison, but here in the United States.

Once, conservatives used to deplore the left's cult of victimhood and ridicule the obsession with real or imagined slights toward women, minorities, and other historically oppressed groups. Now, the right is embracing a victimhood cult obsessed with slights toward a group that makes up 85 percent of the American population.

According to a Washington Post report, one conference speaker, Navy chaplain Lieutenant Gordon James Klingenschmitt, compared himself to Abdur Rahman, the Afghan convert. Showing slides of himself and Rahman, Klingenschmitt inquired, ''What do these two Christians have in common?" and answered: ''Perhaps we are persecuted." His persecution consisted of being disciplined by a commander for saying sectarian prayers at a sailor's memorial service.

DeLay, ousted as House majority leader after being indicted for money laundering and conspiracy, was touted as another victim of religious bigotry, targeted for being outspoken about his faith, and his legal and political woes were compared to a crucifixion. (Isn't that offensive to Christians?) One is reminded of race-obsessed zealots who see a racist conspiracy in every prosecution of a prominent African-American, from O.J. Simpson to a corrupt politician.

There is a nugget of truth in some complaints of anti-Christian bias. Many people in the academic and journalistic elites do turn up their noses at anything that smacks of faith. Some activists, courts, and public officials have misconstrued the prohibition on state establishment of religion as banning any mention of religion in the public square, from a tiny church with a cross on a city seal to a reference to God in a high school graduation speech. The ''War on Christians" conference featured such an incident: An artist's three paintings for a Black History Month art show at the City Hall of Deltona, Florida, were rejected because they included a man in an ''I love Jesus" cap and a minister with a Bible. (The ban was reversed under threat of a lawsuit.)

Such bizarre secularist excesses should be condemned. But the complainers go much further. They cry persecution when religious conservatives are denied the ability to impose their beliefs on everyone -- for instance, to ban abortion or gay unions. In fact, much of the hostility they encounter is directed at this political agenda, not at religion as such: People who bash the religious right seldom object when faith is invoked to protest war, poverty, or racism. This is a double standard, to be sure, but it's just as hypocritical for religious conservatives to suggest that Christians who don't subscribe to their brand of values aren't ''real" Christians.

Thus, at last week's conference, the Rev. Tom Crouse of Holland, Mass., lamented that his idea of holding a ''Mr. Heterosexual" contest to ''proclaim the truth that God created us all heterosexual" encountered widespread disapproval and found no support even from ''Bible-believing churches" because ''it wasn't loving." Apparently, Christian churches that accept gay men and women are part of an anti-Christian war.

Attempts to portray Christians as a beleaguered minority are particularly ludicrous since, outside a few elite enclaves, prejudice against the nonreligious remains widely accepted in America. Half of Americans agree that belief in God is necessary to having good moral values, and more than two-thirds say they would not even consider voting for a nonbeliever for political office. Georgia state legislator Ron Foster ruffled no feathers a few years ago when he noted, in defense of posting of the Ten Commandments in government buildings, that judges or public officials who don't believe in God are ''more likely to be corrupt."

This soft bigotry has consequences, and not just for godless politicians. In the May issue of New York University Law Review, UCLA law professor Eugene Volokh documents discrimination against nonreligious parents in child custody disputes, based on the assumption that raising your children in a religious faith makes you a better parent.

To be sure, there are atheists who are militantly hostile to all religion, and reinforce negative stereotypes of nonbelievers. But there are also believers who give the faithful a bad name -- like the whiners and zealots who wring their hands about a mythical ''war on Christians."

Cathy Young is a contributing editor at Reason magazine. Her column appears regularly in the Globe.


Link Posted: 4/3/2006 4:39:10 PM EDT
Hitler said the jews commited mass suicide.

Stalin said they wanted to move to Siberia.

Saddam Hussein said he ahd to right to gas the kurds.

Somebody always says it aint so.

Sarah Brady once said all they wanted was cheap handguns off the street, then they wanted "assault rifles", then they wanted "sniper rifles", then they wanted AP ammo or anything they felt was AP ammo. They just wanted "sensible laws" and we are to extreme in our aversion.

Everybody who is attacking, always says we are to extreme in our reaction to their attack.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 4:49:01 PM EDT
The old "Frog in a pot of water" trick. They're turning up the heat gradually, so the sheep aren't noticing.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 4:51:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 4:55:06 PM EDT by Napoleon_Tanerite]
i say turnabout is fair play. i'm sick of christians automatically assuming everyone else is christian, and treating them like there is something wrong with them if they are not.

ETA: flame suit ON
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 4:54:36 PM EDT
I could give a crap less about Christians.

But, that said......

They are under attack, all the time.

I consider it as an attack against conservitism as it's
one of our bases, like it or not.

I figgure I'll fight the christians
after we beat the liberals.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 5:33:44 PM EDT
When a great majority of .gov professes Christian faith, I find it hard to feel sympathy for the religion card. Waaaaaah.

I don't give a flying fuck if you're Christian, Buddist, Muslim or a starry eyed Scientologist, taxes should NEVER FUND RELIGIOUS DISPLAYS.

If you donate a nice marble sculpture of the Ten Commandments, great--I love the Ten Commandments. It should go right next to the donated Koran/Buddah/L. Ron Hubbard statue.

Overplaying of the victim card leads to disinterest. If you scream that every arrest is racist, then when you really do get busted for just being Black, nobody cares. Victimhood is an ugly thing. A genuine thing on occasion (the Jews in Germany for example) but bullshit for the most part (see Rodney King).....
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 5:39:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 95thFoot:
What war on Christians?
By Cathy Young | April 3, 2006
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/04/03/what_war_on_christians?mode=PF

LAST WEEK, a conference in Washington, D.C., featuring prominent social conservatives including former House majority leader Tom DeLay (R-Texas), examined the ''War on Christians" -- not in Afghanistan where a man has narrowly escaped a death sentence for converting from Islam to Christianity or in communist dictatorships where preaching the gospel can land you in prison, but here in the United States.

Once, conservatives used to deplore the left's cult of victimhood and ridicule the obsession with real or imagined slights toward women, minorities, and other historically oppressed groups. Now, the right is embracing a victimhood cult obsessed with slights toward a group that makes up 85 percent of the American population.

According to a Washington Post report, one conference speaker, Navy chaplain Lieutenant Gordon James Klingenschmitt, compared himself to Abdur Rahman, the Afghan convert. Showing slides of himself and Rahman, Klingenschmitt inquired, ''What do these two Christians have in common?" and answered: ''Perhaps we are persecuted." His persecution consisted of being disciplined by a commander for saying sectarian prayers at a sailor's memorial service.

DeLay, ousted as House majority leader after being indicted for money laundering and conspiracy, was touted as another victim of religious bigotry, targeted for being outspoken about his faith, and his legal and political woes were compared to a crucifixion. (Isn't that offensive to Christians?) One is reminded of race-obsessed zealots who see a racist conspiracy in every prosecution of a prominent African-American, from O.J. Simpson to a corrupt politician.

There is a nugget of truth in some complaints of anti-Christian bias. Many people in the academic and journalistic elites do turn up their noses at anything that smacks of faith. Some activists, courts, and public officials have misconstrued the prohibition on state establishment of religion as banning any mention of religion in the public square, from a tiny church with a cross on a city seal to a reference to God in a high school graduation speech. The ''War on Christians" conference featured such an incident: An artist's three paintings for a Black History Month art show at the City Hall of Deltona, Florida, were rejected because they included a man in an ''I love Jesus" cap and a minister with a Bible. (The ban was reversed under threat of a lawsuit.)

Such bizarre secularist excesses should be condemned. But the complainers go much further. They cry persecution when religious conservatives are denied the ability to impose their beliefs on everyone -- for instance, to ban abortion or gay unions. In fact, much of the hostility they encounter is directed at this political agenda, not at religion as such: People who bash the religious right seldom object when faith is invoked to protest war, poverty, or racism. This is a double standard, to be sure, but it's just as hypocritical for religious conservatives to suggest that Christians who don't subscribe to their brand of values aren't ''real" Christians.

Thus, at last week's conference, the Rev. Tom Crouse of Holland, Mass., lamented that his idea of holding a ''Mr. Heterosexual" contest to ''proclaim the truth that God created us all heterosexual" encountered widespread disapproval and found no support even from ''Bible-believing churches" because ''it wasn't loving." Apparently, Christian churches that accept gay men and women are part of an anti-Christian war.

Attempts to portray Christians as a beleaguered minority are particularly ludicrous since, outside a few elite enclaves, prejudice against the nonreligious remains widely accepted in America. Half of Americans agree that belief in God is necessary to having good moral values, and more than two-thirds say they would not even consider voting for a nonbeliever for political office. Georgia state legislator Ron Foster ruffled no feathers a few years ago when he noted, in defense of posting of the Ten Commandments in government buildings, that judges or public officials who don't believe in God are ''more likely to be corrupt."

This soft bigotry has consequences, and not just for godless politicians. In the May issue of New York University Law Review, UCLA law professor Eugene Volokh documents discrimination against nonreligious parents in child custody disputes, based on the assumption that raising your children in a religious faith makes you a better parent.

To be sure, there are atheists who are militantly hostile to all religion, and reinforce negative stereotypes of nonbelievers. But there are also believers who give the faithful a bad name -- like the whiners and zealots who wring their hands about a mythical ''war on Christians."

Cathy Young is a contributing editor at Reason magazine. Her column appears regularly in the Globe.





For once they are correct. Christians are persecutors here, not the persecuted. The "War On Christianity" is nothing more than a attempt to drum up support to attack those who have fought against their bullying.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 5:58:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
For once they are correct. Christians are persecutors here, not the persecuted. The "War On Christianity" is nothing more than a attempt to drum up support to attack those who have fought against their bullying.



Then why is my son hassled if he wears a cross or carries a Bible in school? Muslim and Jewish students profess their faith there, and suffer no such hassles. Indeed, they are celebrated in cultural awareness fairs, articles in the school newspaper, etc.. Why can Christianity not be celebrated as well?
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 6:03:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:
i say turnabout is fair play. i'm sick of christians automatically assuming everyone else is christian, and treating them like there is something wrong with them if they are not.

ETA: flame suit ON


OK, fuck you, you damn heathen.

Happy now?
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 6:04:39 PM EDT

Once, conservatives used to deplore the left's cult of victimhood and ridicule the obsession with real or imagined slights toward women, minorities, and other historically oppressed groups. Now, the right is embracing a victimhood cult obsessed with slights toward a group that makes up 85 percent of the American population.


That is a spot-on summary right there. Religious radicals are just adopting the tactics of the left to be media whores.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 6:08:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 95thFoot:

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
For once they are correct. Christians are persecutors here, not the persecuted. The "War On Christianity" is nothing more than a attempt to drum up support to attack those who have fought against their bullying.



Then why is my son hassled if he wears a cross or carries a Bible in school? Muslim and Jewish students profess their faith there, and suffer no such hassles. Indeed, they are celebrated in cultural awareness fairs, articles in the school newspaper, etc.. Why can Christianity not be celebrated as well?



because when 80%+ of your population belongs to a religion, there is no "cultural awareness" by pushing symbols/displays of that religion. I in general, since most Americans are Christian, assume someone is a Christian; I don't need them wearing a cross or carrying a Bible to know that. I wouldn't assume someone is Muslim/Hindu/Buddhist/Jewish/etc. because they represent a very small portion of our population, so I appreciate it when they label themselves with symbols of their faith or their holy books.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 6:10:20 PM EDT
Blah blah blah fuck the Christians. Blah blah blah fuck the Christians. Blah blah blah fuck the Christians.

EVERYBODY NOW!

Blah blah blah fuck the Christians. Blah blah blah fuck the Christians. Blah blah blah fuck the Christians.
Blah blah blah fuck the Christians. Blah blah blah fuck the Christians. Blah blah blah fuck the Christians.

AIN'T IT COOL?

Blah blah blah fuck the Christians. Blah blah blah fuck the Christians. Blah blah blah fuck the Christians.
Blah blah blah fuck the Christians. Blah blah blah fuck the Christians. Blah blah blah fuck the Christians.

ONE LAST TIME!

Blah blah blah fuck the Christians. Blah blah blah fuck the Christians. Blah blah blah fuck the Christians.
Blah blah blah fuck the Christians. Blah blah blah fuck the Christians. Blah blah blah fuck the Christians.

You guys are too much.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 6:10:35 PM EDT
I sooooo preferred life a few decades ago when nobody outside of Alabama wore their religion on their sleeves.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 6:12:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
Blah blah blah fuck the Christians. Blah blah blah fuck the Christians. Blah blah blah fuck the Christians.

EVERYBODY NOW!

Blah blah blah fuck the Christians. Blah blah blah fuck the Christians. Blah blah blah fuck the Christians.
Blah blah blah fuck the Christians. Blah blah blah fuck the Christians. Blah blah blah fuck the Christians.

AIN'T IT COOL?

Blah blah blah fuck the Christians. Blah blah blah fuck the Christians. Blah blah blah fuck the Christians.
Blah blah blah fuck the Christians. Blah blah blah fuck the Christians. Blah blah blah fuck the Christians.

ONE LAST TIME!

Blah blah blah fuck the Christians. Blah blah blah fuck the Christians. Blah blah blah fuck the Christians.
Blah blah blah fuck the Christians. Blah blah blah fuck the Christians. Blah blah blah fuck the Christians.

You guys are too much.



I say fuck it when the religion that most of our politicians belong to, the religion most Americans belong to, is being "persecuted" against because we are finally removing the privileges that Christians have always had in this nation over other faiths.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 6:14:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 95thFoot:

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
For once they are correct. Christians are persecutors here, not the persecuted. The "War On Christianity" is nothing more than a attempt to drum up support to attack those who have fought against their bullying.



Then why is my son hassled if he wears a cross or carries a Bible in school? Muslim and Jewish students profess their faith there, and suffer no such hassles. Indeed, they are celebrated in cultural awareness fairs, articles in the school newspaper, etc.. Why can Christianity not be celebrated as well?



Because everything except our founding faith is OK in the public arena, Judeaism, Hinduism, Islam, Atheism, Wicca are all acceptable. Conventional Christianity upon which the republic was founded, is a prohibited practice outside of predominantely white churches. You can even receive praise as a political candidate in a black church without that church losing its 501 c3 status, but the faith of the founders is prohibited. Go figure.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 6:15:45 PM EDT
The only unforgivable sin is the rejection of God.

Some of you guys have that down pat.

Link Posted: 4/3/2006 6:16:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 95thFoot:
Then why is my son hassled if he wears a cross or carries a Bible in school? Muslim and Jewish students profess their faith there, and suffer no such hassles. Indeed, they are celebrated in cultural awareness fairs, articles in the school newspaper, etc.. Why can Christianity not be celebrated as well?



Could you expound on "hassled" and how it equates to persecution in your eyes?

Also, public schools suck. Send your kid to a Christian school or teach him yourself. I'd be a lot more concerned about the quality of the education than whether or not he can tote a bible around.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 6:17:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PreMed_Gunner:

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
Blah blah blah fuck the Christians. Blah blah blah fuck the Christians. Blah blah blah fuck the Christians.

EVERYBODY NOW!

Blah blah blah fuck the Christians. Blah blah blah fuck the Christians. Blah blah blah fuck the Christians.
Blah blah blah fuck the Christians. Blah blah blah fuck the Christians. Blah blah blah fuck the Christians.

AIN'T IT COOL?

Blah blah blah fuck the Christians. Blah blah blah fuck the Christians. Blah blah blah fuck the Christians.
Blah blah blah fuck the Christians. Blah blah blah fuck the Christians. Blah blah blah fuck the Christians.

ONE LAST TIME!

Blah blah blah fuck the Christians. Blah blah blah fuck the Christians. Blah blah blah fuck the Christians.
Blah blah blah fuck the Christians. Blah blah blah fuck the Christians. Blah blah blah fuck the Christians.

You guys are too much.



I say fuck it when the religion that most of our politicians belong to, the religion most Americans belong to, is being "persecuted" against because we are finally removing the privileges that Christians have always had in this nation over other faiths.



And rightly so as that faith produced the most generous, prosperous, and tolerant nation the earth has ever known in stark contrast to Islam, a completely intolerant religion that has produced some of the most restrictive governments in the modern world. Deny it if you dare.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 6:18:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Planerench:

Originally Posted By 95thFoot:

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
For once they are correct. Christians are persecutors here, not the persecuted. The "War On Christianity" is nothing more than a attempt to drum up support to attack those who have fought against their bullying.



Then why is my son hassled if he wears a cross or carries a Bible in school? Muslim and Jewish students profess their faith there, and suffer no such hassles. Indeed, they are celebrated in cultural awareness fairs, articles in the school newspaper, etc.. Why can Christianity not be celebrated as well?



Because everything except our founding faith is OK in the public arena, Judeaism, Hinduism, Islam, Atheism, Wicca are all acceptable. Conventional Christianity upon which the republic was founded, is a prohibited practice outside of predominantely white churches. You can even receive praise as a political candidate in a black church without that church losing its 501 c3 status, but the faith of the founders is prohibited. Go figure.



How would one practice Deism in the public arena?
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 6:20:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Planerench:

Originally Posted By PreMed_Gunner:
I say fuck it when the religion that most of our politicians belong to, the religion most Americans belong to, is being "persecuted" against because we are finally removing the privileges that Christians have always had in this nation over other faiths.


And rightly so as that faith produced the most generous, prosperous, and tolerant nation the earth has ever known in stark contrast to Islam, a completely intolerant religion that has produced some of the most restrictive governments in the modern world. Deny it if you dare.


^

That's the sound of somebody getting bitchslapped.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 6:22:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By verticalgain:

Originally Posted By 95thFoot:
Then why is my son hassled if he wears a cross or carries a Bible in school? Muslim and Jewish students profess their faith there, and suffer no such hassles. Indeed, they are celebrated in cultural awareness fairs, articles in the school newspaper, etc.. Why can Christianity not be celebrated as well?



Could you expound on "hassled" and how it equates to persecution in your eyes?

Also, public schools suck. Send your kid to a Christian school or teach him yourself. I'd be a lot more concerned about the quality of the education than whether or not he can tote a bible around.



Students have been incorrectly told by teachers that they are not allowed to display a Bible on their desk, read it when free reading time is alloted or wear anything that could communicate their faith. Other faiths are rarely challenged to the point of bending no tolerance rules to allow Skhis (sp?) to wear fake knives to school.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 6:23:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By verticalgain:

Originally Posted By Planerench:

Originally Posted By 95thFoot:

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
For once they are correct. Christians are persecutors here, not the persecuted. The "War On Christianity" is nothing more than a attempt to drum up support to attack those who have fought against their bullying.



Then why is my son hassled if he wears a cross or carries a Bible in school? Muslim and Jewish students profess their faith there, and suffer no such hassles. Indeed, they are celebrated in cultural awareness fairs, articles in the school newspaper, etc.. Why can Christianity not be celebrated as well?



Because everything except our founding faith is OK in the public arena, Judeaism, Hinduism, Islam, Atheism, Wicca are all acceptable. Conventional Christianity upon which the republic was founded, is a prohibited practice outside of predominantely white churches. You can even receive praise as a political candidate in a black church without that church losing its 501 c3 status, but the faith of the founders is prohibited. Go figure.



How would one practice Deism in the public arena?



Not sure, but few of the founders were Deists.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 6:32:34 PM EDT
"But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

-Thomas Jefferson

" I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church."

-Thomas Paine

"I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy-day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity."

- Benjamin Franklin


This country was NOT NOT NOT NOT founded on the basis of religion!
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 6:33:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Planerench:
Originally Posted By verticalgain:
Originally Posted By 95thFoot:
Then why is my son

Students have been incorrectly told by teachers that they are not allowed to display a Bible on their desk, read it when free reading time is alloted or wear anything that could communicate their faith. Other faiths are rarely challenged to the point of bending no tolerance rules to allow Skhis (sp?) to wear fake knives to school.



Your son was forbidden from having a Bible on his desk when another student in his class was allowed to have a knife for religious purposes?
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 6:34:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PreMed_Gunner:

Originally Posted By 95thFoot:

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
For once they are correct. Christians are persecutors here, not the persecuted. The "War On Christianity" is nothing more than a attempt to drum up support to attack those who have fought against their bullying.



Then why is my son hassled if he wears a cross or carries a Bible in school? Muslim and Jewish students profess their faith there, and suffer no such hassles. Indeed, they are celebrated in cultural awareness fairs, articles in the school newspaper, etc.. Why can Christianity not be celebrated as well?



because when 80%+ of your population belongs to a religion, there is no "cultural awareness" by pushing symbols/displays of that religion. I in general, since most Americans are Christian, assume someone is a Christian; I don't need them wearing a cross or carrying a Bible to know that. I wouldn't assume someone is Muslim/Hindu/Buddhist/Jewish/etc. because they represent a very small portion of our population, so I appreciate it when they label themselves with symbols of their faith or their holy books.



Correction 80% of the population believes santaclause brings presents every winter and the easter bunny hands out eggs in the spring. Christianity to them is nothing more to them than the country there ancestors are from. Id say the true number is closer to 20-30%.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 6:34:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PreMed_Gunner:

Originally Posted By 95thFoot:

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
For once they are correct. Christians are persecutors here, not the persecuted. The "War On Christianity" is nothing more than a attempt to drum up support to attack those who have fought against their bullying.



Then why is my son hassled if he wears a cross or carries a Bible in school? Muslim and Jewish students profess their faith there, and suffer no such hassles. Indeed, they are celebrated in cultural awareness fairs, articles in the school newspaper, etc.. Why can Christianity not be celebrated as well?



because when 80%+ of your population belongs to a religion, there is no "cultural awareness" by pushing symbols/displays of that religion. I in general, since most Americans are Christian, assume someone is a Christian; I don't need them wearing a cross or carrying a Bible to know that. I wouldn't assume someone is Muslim/Hindu/Buddhist/Jewish/etc. because they represent a very small portion of our population, so I appreciate it when they label themselves with symbols of their faith or their holy books.



Good point. But why not take it one step further and require Jews to sew six pointed stars on their clothes (and other suitable symbols for other minorities) so we could be even more aware of their differentness?
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 6:38:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 6:38:21 PM EDT
Wah.

There is no sanctioned persecution of Christians in America, just isn't there. Nobody gets fined, imprisoned or killed by the state for being a christian.

If the culture has turned against the church there's plenty of blame to go around. Christians by nature consider themselves elect, saved, seperate from the rest of society, and look down on those who aren't part of the club, it's only natural that it goes both ways.

Jerry Falwell and his ilk aren't doing you any favors either.

Don't worry, when they start feeding you to the lions again, or at least do SOMETHING to infringe on your rights, I'll have your back. Until then get over yourselves.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 6:42:45 PM EDT
another perfect reason i will never buy a team member ship to support this web site.


Link Posted: 4/3/2006 6:51:39 PM EDT
Regardless of what anyone thinks of the writer as far as matters of faith are concerned, she's better than most columnists on firearms:

The bias against handguns
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 6:53:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cruze5:
another perfect reason i will never buy a team member ship to support this web site.





huh?
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 7:00:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 7:02:09 PM EDT by Mr-H]

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:
"But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

-Thomas Jefferson

" I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church."

-Thomas Paine

"I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy-day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity."

- Benjamin Franklin


This country was NOT NOT NOT NOT founded on the basis of religion!



Those quotes don't really prove your point at all. I am not saying America was or is a Christian Nation in the sense that it was or is a theocracy. However, it is indisputable that the many of the ideas and principles that make our country great, presuppose and get their justification from the existence of God (see the Declaration of Independence).
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 7:05:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 7:10:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mr-H:
Those quotes don't really prove your point at all. I am not saying America was or is a Christian Nation in the sense that it was or is a theocracy. However, it is indisputable that the many of the ideas and principles that make our country great, presuppose and get their justification from the existence of God (see the Declaration of Independence).



most of those ideas and principles are not unique to christianity. just look at the 10 commandments. every religion more or less follows those rules, regardless of what religion they are. christianity does not have a monopoly on morality or good ideas.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 7:43:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:

Originally Posted By Mr-H:
Those quotes don't really prove your point at all. I am not saying America was or is a Christian Nation in the sense that it was or is a theocracy. However, it is indisputable that the many of the ideas and principles that make our country great, presuppose and get their justification from the existence of God (see the Declaration of Independence).



most of those ideas and principles are not unique to christianity. just look at the 10 commandments. every religion more or less follows those rules, regardless of what religion they are. christianity does not have a monopoly on morality or good ideas.



Since the 10 commandments predates most all religions it would make sense for them to copy it. The fact is that all truth is God's truth. There for the concepts of 1 wife, don't steal, don't lie etc would be found in all of them.

Christians and Christianity are most certainly under attack......by the Left. They hate what Christians stand for. Look at hollywood, how do they portray Christians? How was Mel Gibson treated by them when he made "the Passion"? The prejudice was obvious, they attacked him and the movie from all angles.

Link Posted: 4/3/2006 7:49:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 7:50:19 PM EDT by tekloid]
war on christianity = fabricated bs

"Wwahhh uh wahhhh, we can't gain 100% control of this nation so we're being persecuted. wahhhhhhhh"

Link Posted: 4/3/2006 7:56:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By firedog51d:

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:

Originally Posted By Mr-H:
Those quotes don't really prove your point at all. I am not saying America was or is a Christian Nation in the sense that it was or is a theocracy. However, it is indisputable that the many of the ideas and principles that make our country great, presuppose and get their justification from the existence of God (see the Declaration of Independence).



most of those ideas and principles are not unique to christianity. just look at the 10 commandments. every religion more or less follows those rules, regardless of what religion they are. christianity does not have a monopoly on morality or good ideas.



Since the 10 commandments predates most all religions it would make sense for them to copy it. The fact is that all truth is God's truth. There for the concepts of 1 wife, don't steal, don't lie etc would be found in all of them.

Christians and Christianity are most certainly under attack......by the Left. They hate what Christians stand for. Look at hollywood, how do they portray Christians? How was Mel Gibson treated by them when he made "the Passion"? The prejudice was obvious, they attacked him and the movie from all angles.




Our country's laws are not based off of Christian doctrine, they are based off of British commonwealth laws, which were in turn based off of Roman laws - I am not sure about you, but I am pretty sure that the Romans were not Christian when they conquered Britain.

As for the ten commandments, there are plenty of older religions that have similar values, such as Hinduism, that predate Christianity AND Judaism quite a bit.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 8:00:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:

Originally Posted By Planerench:

Originally Posted By PreMed_Gunner:
I say fuck it when the religion that most of our politicians belong to, the religion most Americans belong to, is being "persecuted" against because we are finally removing the privileges that Christians have always had in this nation over other faiths.


And rightly so as that faith produced the most generous, prosperous, and tolerant nation the earth has ever known in stark contrast to Islam, a completely intolerant religion that has produced some of the most restrictive governments in the modern world. Deny it if you dare.


^

That's the sound of somebody getting bitchslapped.



I am not arguing that other religions may or may not be better than Christianity; however, Christianity has given people certain privileges in this country above those who follow different faiths; something that is not to be supported by the government, where Jew,Muslim,Hindu, and Christian should all be treated equally.

Also, Christianity is not the reason for this country's success, capitalism is(I personally disagree with many capitalistic ideals, but it is the reason we have succeeded); greed, violence, and the pursuit of power has given us what we have today. Capitalism is something that is not uniquely Christian, and in fact Christianity's ideas lend itself far mor towards Socialism than Capitalism.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 8:05:36 PM EDT
What? Christians are not treated better than everyone else in every single spot in the world?

Maybe it has something to do with the fact they are not better by any means. There is no correlation between religious affiliation and moral behavior in the united states.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 8:05:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NoVaGator:
I sooooo preferred life a few decades ago when nobody outside of Alabama wore their religion on their sleeves.



Amen!!!!!
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 8:09:03 PM EDT
The following groups are ABSOLUTELY under attack:


Everyone.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 8:13:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 8:34:31 PM EDT
I dont feel persecuted. Just hated. It is amazing at how many now judge me since my conversion. Everything I always thought only religious folks did, is now comming from the non religious. They call me judgemental even before I can open my mouth. Hipocrisy knows no bounds.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 8:38:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By verticalgain:

Originally Posted By Planerench:

Originally Posted By 95thFoot:

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
For once they are correct. Christians are persecutors here, not the persecuted. The "War On Christianity" is nothing more than a attempt to drum up support to attack those who have fought against their bullying.



Then why is my son hassled if he wears a cross or carries a Bible in school? Muslim and Jewish students profess their faith there, and suffer no such hassles. Indeed, they are celebrated in cultural awareness fairs, articles in the school newspaper, etc.. Why can Christianity not be celebrated as well?



Because everything except our founding faith is OK in the public arena, Judeaism, Hinduism, Islam, Atheism, Wicca are all acceptable. Conventional Christianity upon which the republic was founded, is a prohibited practice outside of predominantely white churches. You can even receive praise as a political candidate in a black church without that church losing its 501 c3 status, but the faith of the founders is prohibited. Go figure.



How would one practice Deism in the public arena?



The same way the Deists founding Fathers did. With respect. Like the founding fathers did. Not like todays liberals.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 8:39:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:
"But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

-Thomas Jefferson

" I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church."

-Thomas Paine

"I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy-day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity."

- Benjamin Franklin


This country was NOT NOT NOT NOT founded on the basis of religion!


True to an extent BUT they were respectful of others right to practice it and even saw a place for it. UNLIKE many folks here.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 8:55:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:

This country was NOT NOT NOT NOT founded on the basis of religion!



You obviously don't read much.

President Geo. Washington, Oct 3, 1789:

Whereas it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor -- and whereas both Houses of Congress have by their joint Committee requested me "to recommend to the People of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness."

Now therefore I do recommend and assign Thursday the 26th day of November next to be devoted by the People of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being, who is the beneficent Author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be -- That we may then all unite in rendering unto him our sincere and humble thanks -- for his kind care and protection of the People of this Country previous to their becoming a Nation -- for the signal and manifold mercies, and the favorable interpositions of his Providence which we experienced in the tranquility [sic], union, and plenty, which we have since enjoyed -- for the peaceable and rational manner, in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national One now lately instituted -- for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed; and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and in general for all the great and various favors which he hath been pleased to confer upon us.


And also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech him to pardon our national and other transgressions -- to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually -- to render our national government a blessing to all the people, by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed -- to protect and guide all Sovereigns and Nations (especially such as have shewn [sic] kindness onto us) and to bless them with good government, peace, and concord -- To promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the encrease [sic] of science among them and us -- and generally to grant unto all Mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as he alone knows to be best.

Given under my hand at the City of New York
the third day of October in the year of our Lord 1789.

George Washington
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 12:48:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/4/2006 1:02:53 AM EDT by Prophet118]
Have any of you who are writting these responses that contain such sarcasm and disrespect thought of the fact that -in doing so, you are doing the things that you claim you are not? The reason Christians write in this forum is not to attack you. But to warn you. Because we care for you and we love you. If this last statement makes you angry, stop and ask yourself: Why? Why do I get so angry at the people who genuinely care for me and want good for the people of this nation? I know you think you understand. I know you think you have it all figured out. And I also know that you have your opinions and your beliefs. But what if your wrong? Many religions have a code of ethics. But rules about doing good and doing right won't get you into heaven. There is a heaven. And there is a heavenly Father. But you have lost your way to Him. And you have not known Him. There is only one way, one truth and one life. His name is Jesus Christ. And he loves you and wants you. God did not send His son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. Christianity is not a religion or a code of ethics or even a way of life. It is life, in Christ.

And to my fellow Christians: didn't our Lord tell us that if they persecuted him they would persecute you also? The Bible tells us not to get upset or angry when we are persecuted or treated unfairly; but to rejoice. By this you know you are Christ's. GOD is in control of this situation that this thread is about. And you know yourselves that these things must come to pass because we are in the last days. Just remember: The victory is already yours.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 6:58:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/4/2006 9:23:04 AM EDT by ghengiskhabb]

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:
"But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

-Thomas Jefferson

" I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church."

-Thomas Paine

"I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy-day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity."

- Benjamin Franklin


This country was NOT NOT NOT NOT founded on the basis of religion!





Ohhhh my..... 3 whole dudes..... Well let me just rethink everything.


P.S. 56 people signed the Declaration of Independence, and 39 signed the Constitution, and 16 others were at the constitutional convention who did not sign, yet the same 3 guys a blabbered about over and over about how America was this great Diest haven. Do some research. Start here.

Edit to add: And Thomas Paine didn't sign either the Declaration or Constitution. He was a propagandist.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 8:21:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 95thFoot:

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
For once they are correct. Christians are persecutors here, not the persecuted. The "War On Christianity" is nothing more than a attempt to drum up support to attack those who have fought against their bullying.



Then why is my son hassled if he wears a cross or carries a Bible in school? Muslim and Jewish students profess their faith there, and suffer no such hassles. Indeed, they are celebrated in cultural awareness fairs, articles in the school newspaper, etc.. Why can Christianity not be celebrated as well?



Is your son a nerd? Perhaps because you've prepped your son to be outwardly religious and that makes him not fit in. Its your sons right to wear his superman underoos at 15, but he might get his ass kicked in the locker room.

I'm an atheist, but I will not force my child to wear pro-atheist gear. I will raise my children UU and we don't stress outward signs of religiousity, I don't expect my kids to have much of an issue due to their faith. You made your son a target for bullies in school, that is something people everywhere have had to deal with, its not just confined to Christians.

The simple fact is Christians outnumber all other religions by a factor of 4 to 1. They also make up a large majority of the .gov, the military and the gun owners. How exactly can you be persecuted?

Are you forbidden to worship in your home or your church?
Are you forbidden to wear signs of your worship?
Are you forbidden to make television or radio programs?

how exactly are you persecuted?

I have news for you, not being able to tell all the non-Christians how to live their lives isn't persecution. Its freedom. You don't like it head to a country that fits your moral values.

Link Posted: 4/4/2006 8:24:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Planerench:

Originally Posted By verticalgain:

Originally Posted By 95thFoot:
Then why is my son hassled if he wears a cross or carries a Bible in school? Muslim and Jewish students profess their faith there, and suffer no such hassles. Indeed, they are celebrated in cultural awareness fairs, articles in the school newspaper, etc.. Why can Christianity not be celebrated as well?



Could you expound on "hassled" and how it equates to persecution in your eyes?

Also, public schools suck. Send your kid to a Christian school or teach him yourself. I'd be a lot more concerned about the quality of the education than whether or not he can tote a bible around.



Students have been incorrectly told by teachers that they are not allowed to display a Bible on their desk, read it when free reading time is alloted or wear anything that could communicate their faith. Other faiths are rarely challenged to the point of bending no tolerance rules to allow Skhis (sp?) to wear fake knives to school.



That is wrong, and should be fixed with a talk to the school supervisors. I do find it hard to believe both those examples occured in the same school, your statement makes it unclear.

Link Posted: 4/4/2006 3:20:01 PM EDT


Mr-H
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Joined :: January 2005
Post Number :: 1235

IL, USA

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Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:
"But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

-Thomas Jefferson

" I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church."

-Thomas Paine

"I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy-day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity."

- Benjamin Franklin


This country was NOT NOT NOT NOT founded on the basis of religion!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Those quotes don't really prove your point at all. I am not saying America was or is a Christian Nation in the sense that it was or is a theocracy. However, it is indisputable that the many of the ideas and principles that make our country great, presuppose and get their justification from the existence of God (see the Declaration of Independence).







I will look to the declaration of independence for god when it becomes a legal document. Till then it holds about as much of a legal status as the articles of confederation do.
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