I was persecuted today. This liberal openly gay at my school was talking about religion with someone else and some of his comments were like this "dumb-ass piece of shit religious conservatives", "facist religious.....facists" (lol). He says that Christians are never persecuted and anything negative said about Christians is not offensive toward him. I was very offended, being a dedicated christian, but I kept cool and didn't bring attention to myself.

Am I wrong for being offended? No
Am I wrong for being a christian to "progressives"? YES

Quoted:

Uh Oh. Somethings very very wrong here.

Quoted: I was persecuted today. This liberal openly gay at my school was talking about religion with someone else and some of his comments were like this "dumb-ass piece of shit religious conservatives", "facist religious.....facists" (lol). He says that Christians are never persecuted and anything negative said about Christians is not offensive toward him. I was very offended, being a dedicated christian, but I kept cool and didn't bring attention to myself. Am I wrong for being offended? No Am I wrong for being a christian to "progressives"? YES

that's persecution?

Quoted: Quoted: I was persecuted today. This liberal openly gay at my school was talking about religion with someone else and some of his comments were like this "dumb-ass piece of shit religious conservatives", "facist religious.....facists" (lol). He says that Christians are never persecuted and anything negative said about Christians is not offensive toward him. I was very offended, being a dedicated christian, but I kept cool and didn't bring attention to myself. Am I wrong for being offended? No Am I wrong for being a christian to "progressives"? YES that's persecution?

Hearing those type of comments on a daily basis, Yeah.

DoubleFeed Team Member Joined :: June 2001 Post Number :: 28226 OK, USA   User Info     IM User     Email User     Reply     Quote   -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I will look to the declaration of independence for god when it becomes a legal document. Till then it holds about as much of a legal status as the articles of confederation do. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If your rights don't come from a Divine Creator, then the alternative is "social contract". You have rights at the luxury of your fellow citizens, and their's are at your luxury. They can be abridged at any time for any reason. I bet you don't like that very much, but what choice do you have, having rejected the DofI rights model?

My rights come from the Constitution. The Declartation of Independence is not a legal document, the Constitution is.

Would my legal rights to keep and bear arms dissapear if the second ammendment were to be removed by a constitutional amendment? Yes, legally that right would dissapear. I would leave this country at that point as I would no longer want to live here with people that short sighted. Your little scenario does not; however, make the Decleration of Independence a legal document. The only rights you are gauranteed in this country are defined in the Constitution.  

The only rights that you are gauranteed are the ones in the Constitution and those rights only extend to U.S. citizens on U.S. soil. Anything else is fair game and if you doubt that just look around the world. Anything else can and will be regulated by some government.

Saddam Hussien said no one was persecuted in his country too.  Coincidence, I think not!

[quote:]If your rights don't come from a Divine Creator, then the alternative is "social contract".
You have rights at the luxury of your fellow citizens, and their's are at your luxury. They can be abridged at any time for any reason.
I bet you don't like that very much, but what choice do you have, having rejected the DofI rights model?[quote:]

I'll prolly get flamed for this and being a troll because of my low post count.  But here goes:

The fact that supposedly some invisible guy in the sky laid out the groundrules does not make them any more valid or less vulnerable than if they were created by human intelligence.  

1.  I can reason that I have as much right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as my neighbor.  I can do this on my own, I don't need some supernatural force to tell me that.  

2.  Even if one believes god created these rights, PEOPLE MUST ENFORCE THEM.  We are still under a social contract to mutally respect other's rights.  If the majority deciedes they are no longer rights, it doesn't matter who created them, they'll still be gone.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the majority has the say on what rights actually exist, they simply hold the power to enforce or ignore these rights, reguardless of their source (god or elsewhere).  So even if one assumes the divine origin of rights, one cannot escape the social agreement needed to enforce them. That is why we must take an active role in preserving what rights we hold dear reguardless if we feel they were given to us by god or not.


is anything i'm saying making sense?  Or am I just rambling? I'm late for a Ohio Univeristy Second Amenedment Club meeting hug.gif and I don't really have time to edit this.

edit: ok, I guess I lied about the editing; somehow the quotes around the original author disappeared, and I don't recall the HTML...but u get the idea

DoubleFeed Team Member Joined :: June 2001 Post Number :: 28229 OK, USA   User Info     IM User     Email User     Reply     Quote   -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quoted: The only rights that you are gauranteed are the ones in the Constitution and those rights only extend to U.S. citizens on U.S. soil. Anything else is fair game and if you doubt that just look around the world. Anything else can and will be regulated by some government. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For legal purposes, you are correct. Rights are guaranteed by the Constitution. However, where do your rights come from? Lemme expound. Here's the model: God>>People>>Government. Do you agree with that outside the God part? Here's the European model: Government>>People. Their rights are subject to the legislative whims of their government, which means they effectively don't have rights. Rights must have an origination outside the document that ennumerates them, or they mean nothing.

Do I believe that the government should serve the people and its power comes from the people? Yes I believe that is how it should be.

Wow, and I thought you might actualy be going somewhere with this. Of course I have already agreed with you that the government comes from the people, but that does not change some simple facts. First, The Decleration of Independence is not a legal document. Second, the only rights that are gauranteed you are the ones in the Constitution. Which is, and I have never said that it is not, subject to change. Not by god but by the citizins of the United States. You have gone a long way to not make a point.

Quoted: My rights come from the Constitution. The Declartation of Independence is not a legal document, the Constitution is. Actually, your rights predate the Constitution. The Constitution just recognizes them. Do you believe that if the 2nd Amendment was repealed, your RKBA would just disappear?

Depends on what you mean.  Your inherent rights (or God-given depending on your persuasion) can never be taken away from a philosophical standpoint.   I have the right to keep and bear arms even if tomorrow they tell us to turn all our weapons in.   Of course, felons have the right to keep and bear arms even though we don't let them legally do so in America.  

If the 2nd is repealed my LEGAL right to own a gun would disappear, but my NATURAL right would remain.  

Quoted: There's a difference between guaranteed and granted. My point is that your rights MUST come from somewhere, and if you think they come only from the consent of your fellow citizens, that lends you way way too easily to agreeing that you don't REALLY have rights at all.

Why MUST they come from somewhere?   Granted rights aren't rights at all.   They are priveleges the granter can revoke at any time.   If you believe God gave you those rights, God can take them away from you too.  I don't believe in God, so obviously I don't believe he granted me any rights.

My position, and the position of my religion, is human beings have natural rights that are not granted by anyone and can't be taken away by anyone.     I will always have those rights, even if the government takes away my ability to exercise those rights.

The Constitution is the particular social contract I belong to that recognizes my inherent rights.    

Quoted: Since God gave you those rights, those rights are revokable by God under one circumstance: your death.

Who gave God the ability to make decisions like what rights you have?  

ok where's the Aw Jeez Not This Shit Again guy...  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Since God gave you those rights, those rights are revokable by God under one circumstance: your death. Who gave God the ability to make decisions like what rights you have?   Good question, if you doubt the omnipotence of God. If you do not, there is no conflict.

Indeed.  Whether or not and how strongly you adhere to the Christain faith determines this belief.  Your argument is understandable and I'm sure many share your view. However, logically arguing that natural rights stem from God is about as effective as arguing that they came from the Easter Bunny or the FSM.

That fr00t has her head in the sand!

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: There's a difference between guaranteed and granted. My point is that your rights MUST come from somewhere, and if you think they come only from the consent of your fellow citizens, that lends you way way too easily to agreeing that you don't REALLY have rights at all. Why MUST they come from somewhere?   Granted rights aren't rights at all.   They are priveleges the granter can revoke at any time.   If you believe God gave you those rights, God can take them away from you too.  I don't believe in God, so obviously I don't believe he granted me any rights. My position, and the position of my religion, is human beings have natural rights that are not granted by anyone and can't be taken away by anyone.     I will always have those rights, even if the government takes away my ability to exercise those rights. The Constitution is the particular social contract I belong to that recognizes my inherent rights.     Since God gave you those rights, those rights are revokable by God under one circumstance: your death.

that didn't answer the question.  I understand your position, but why is it superior to mine?

You say God gave me those rights, I say I have those rights by virtue of being a  human being.   They are inherent to all men.   You say rights MUST be given, I say anything given isn't a right.

Why are your beliefs  more correct than mine?