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Posted: 3/14/2016 5:06:52 PM EDT
i have a student that's been training with me for quite some time now.  We did a private training sessions at SCOTG in Laurens, SC this past weekend.

He ran multiple rifles out to 1,000yds, and several to 1,270yds.  He shot 2 .338 Lapuas, a .300WinMag, a .260 bolt gun, and a couple of gas guns in .308.  

One of the .308 auto loaders was a 16" HK 417 variant, topped with an S&B PMII Ultra Short 5-20x50mm. Ammo was a handload using a proprietary 171grn bullet with a powdered tungsten core.  Once I got him on target at 1,000yds, he hit it twice in a row, shanked a tight called miss at 3 o'clock, then hit it 3 more consecutive times.  He stopped then and called it good dope.

The .308 is much more capable then a lot of folks give it credit for.
Link Posted: 3/14/2016 5:12:43 PM EDT
[#1]
Target was an 18"x24" steel silhouette.
Link Posted: 3/14/2016 5:27:50 PM EDT
[#2]
Tell me more about the 171gr bullet.
Link Posted: 3/14/2016 5:40:21 PM EDT
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Tell me more about the 171gr bullet.
View Quote


At this time, I can't.   Sorry.  As soon as I am allowed I will be happy to post more info about it.
Link Posted: 3/14/2016 5:43:46 PM EDT
[#4]
If you put a tight twist on it and use a good BC bullet, yeah.

But you still pay the recoil and weight penalty for a cartridge that is mediocre at best when looking at efficiency.

Even with a lesser BC bullet like the 123gr AMAX in 6.5 Grendel, hits at 1000yds are boringly repeatable, not hit and miss as you describe, from a carbine.

Twist is already tight, no need to look for custom twist barrels.

If I was going to spin my wheels with a .308, I would do a gain twist, and find the best BC bullets.  It would be better to be wealthy to afford Berger's rather than Hornady's.

A big problem with the .308 from short barrels is that your danger space is unpredictable due to the mortar-like trajectory with the rounds coming down at the target, versus flying straight to it like a laser.

I've spent a lot of time behind a spotting scope watching .308 from 16" barrels, as well as 20" and 24", and it just has a rainbow arc at long range.

In the 21st Century, we should have a goal to shed ourselves from the .30 bore madness and not look back, in my opinion.
Link Posted: 3/14/2016 5:49:58 PM EDT
[#5]
1:12 twist works fine for a 308. Plenty of people shooting the 185 Juggernauts with them, let alone the lighter stuff.
Link Posted: 3/14/2016 5:58:37 PM EDT
[#6]
While I'll agree there are a whole slew of calibers that have much less drop than a .308 when both are compared at 1,000yds, I'm not aware of any that shoot flat like a laser......especially when comparing other short action calibers.   Even light 6.5's and long action magnums are dropping in excess of 20MOA when zeroed for 100yds......that's well over 200", or more than 17'.  That's a pretty droopy laser.

I never said, and never will say, that the .308 is the end-all-be-all, but I will say it is more capable than is commonly claimed on the Internet (as with most things reviled on the Internet).  

Anyways, wasn't intended to start a .308 vs .XXX argument........I've just heard too many folks saying certain shots can't be made with a .308 unless the barrel is of XX" length.  While not optimal, it is eminently and easily doable.  

SEMPER FI!
Link Posted: 3/14/2016 6:09:17 PM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
1:12 twist works fine for a 308. Plenty of people shooting the 185 Juggernauts with them, let alone the lighter stuff.
View Quote

Maybe from a long barrel, but not a 16".

Use 1:12, even at high altitude with less barometric pressure in your favor, and you start to come apart after 700yds.  Been there, done that.

1:10", and you've got way better spin stability through the long haul.  If I was going to bang my head against the wall and try to make the .308 a viable cartridge still in the 21st Century, ignoring all the superior options to me, I would start with 1/18" twist and gain it down to 1/9" from a 16" barrel, pushing Berger's.

But then why would I do that when I can have a much lighter rifle, that runs on lower pressures, with a better hit probability and ease of follow-through, follow-up shot?  I wouldn't.
Link Posted: 3/14/2016 6:13:18 PM EDT
[#8]
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Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
But then why would I do that when I can have a much lighter rifle, that runs on lower pressures, with a better hit probability and ease of follow-through, follow-up shot?  I wouldn't.
View Quote


I just bought 6,300 rounds of M80 ball for $0.40/rd. That means I can shoot short range and from alternative positions for the next decade for a few thousand dollars.
Link Posted: 3/14/2016 6:14:35 PM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By cmshoot:
While I'll agree there are a whole slew of calibers that have much less drop than a .308 when both are compared at 1,000yds, I'm not aware of any that shoot flat like a laser......especially when comparing other short action calibers.   Even light 6.5's and long action magnums are dropping in excess of 20MOA when zeroed for 100yds......that's well over 200", or more than 17'.  That's a pretty droopy laser.

I never said, and never will say, that the .308 is the end-all-be-all, but I will say it is more capable than is commonly claimed on the Internet (as with most things reviled on the Internet).  

Anyways, wasn't intended to start a .308 vs .XXX argument........I've just heard too many folks saying certain shots can't be made with a .308 unless the barrel is of XX" length.  While not optimal, it is eminently and easily doable.  

SEMPER FI!
View Quote

I've made 1st-round hits with 175gr SMK at 1118yds lazed with Leica LRF.  There were two full value winds cancelling each other out, and I expected a close register with a correction, but got lucky with 1st-round hit.  I was at 4500 ft elevation on a relatively calm morning, sunlight illuminating the target perfectly, and the target was larger than an IPSC.

It can be done, sure.   I would like to see .308 shunned as much as humanly possible by this generation though, since I view it as a colossal abortion of epic magnitude by Army Ordnance in the 1950's.  The fact that 1896 performance has still not been reached by anyone in NATO with a service rifle or machinegun is pretty damning when you look at it.
Link Posted: 3/14/2016 6:27:11 PM EDT
[#10]
Lots of people here will tell you its not possible.  Bullet selection is key that's all (with the proper twist rate as already mentioned).  My EMC did good enough for hits on a full size torso at 1k with 178 AMAX and BTHP's.  I'll be pushing the SCAR out to that range as well shortly.  Yes at 6.5 will get you there with a lot less drop.  But if I want a "do everything" rifle, I'm not running a 3 Gun course with a 6.5 CM when I can shoot M80 cheap and reloads for a hell of a lot less....

Link Posted: 3/14/2016 6:45:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: m4hk33] [#11]
Meh...

Not really impressed with sombody going 5 for 6 on a 2.5 MOA registered target in a $7000 rig

Can a 308 do a 1000, of course but it's a dog. Fuck, its well known that STA struggles going 50% at 800 with bolt guns but for some reason everybody and their cousin Eddie with1/100th the formal training and resourses can  bang man sized steel at 1000 with short gas guns.

Link Posted: 3/14/2016 6:45:24 PM EDT
[#12]
OST for info on the bullet.
Link Posted: 3/14/2016 6:56:55 PM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By m4hk33:
Meh...

Not really impressed with sombody going 5 for 6 on a 2.5 MOA registered target in a $7000 rig

Can a 308 do a 1000, of course but it's a dog. Fuck, its well known that STA struggles going 50% at 800 with bolt guns but for some reason everybody and their cousin Eddie with1/100th the formal training and resourses can  bang man sized steel at 1000 with short gas guns.

View Quote


I spent 6 years in STA Platoon, I never witnessed this 50% at 800yd phenomenon you speak of.
Link Posted: 3/14/2016 7:05:16 PM EDT
[#14]
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Originally Posted By cmshoot:


I spent 6 years in STA Platoon, I never witnessed this 50% at 800yd phenomenon you speak of.
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Originally Posted By cmshoot:
Originally Posted By m4hk33:
Meh...

Not really impressed with sombody going 5 for 6 on a 2.5 MOA registered target in a $7000 rig

Can a 308 do a 1000, of course but it's a dog. Fuck, its well known that STA struggles going 50% at 800 with bolt guns but for some reason everybody and their cousin Eddie with1/100th the formal training and resourses can  bang man sized steel at 1000 with short gas guns.



I spent 6 years in STA Platoon, I never witnessed this 50% at 800yd phenomenon you speak of.

What hit rate did you see?  800yds isn't that hard once you learn how to read wind well, although for new shooter/spotter teams, 50% hit rate on iron maidens sounds about right.

I can tell you that from my perspective, modern ballistics calculators have changed the game significantly, especially combined with a hand-held weather station.

Todd Hodnett takes the .308 16" gas guns out to a mile, using custom tight twist rate, and beats longer barreled guns with more case capacity doing it.

The 178gr AMAX and 175gr SMK are good bullets to 1000yds, at least up here in these altitudes.  I stopped using .308 in military sniper competitions many years ago though.

A .260 Rem or 6.5 CM pushing 123gr or 130gr is like a laser.  140gr not so much, but flatter than .308 for sure.  I've watched them all through the spotting scope, and especially when you have sunlight to the rear of you, the lock-based projectiles look like tracers, so you can really see the difference.
Link Posted: 3/14/2016 7:06:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: cms81586] [#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By m4hk33:
Meh...

Not really impressed with sombody going 5 for 6 on a 2.5 MOA registered target in a $7000 rig

Can a 308 do a 1000, of course but it's a dog. Fuck, its well known that STA struggles going 50% at 800 with bolt guns but for some reason everybody and their cousin Eddie with1/100th the formal training and resourses can  bang man sized steel at 1000 with short gas guns.

View Quote


It's not supposed to impress you.  Facts are facts.  Nobody is claiming it's the most efficient way to get the job done...just that it can still get the job done. If I know I'm engaging targets past 800m I'm bringing the .338LM out of the safe.

Link Posted: 3/14/2016 7:12:41 PM EDT
[#16]
What we're trying to say is that 308 is capable but you just have to be a capable shooter....if not then pick another round

Link Posted: 3/14/2016 7:19:30 PM EDT
[#17]
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Originally Posted By cmshoot:


I spent 6 years in STA Platoon, I never witnessed this 50% at 800yd phenomenon you speak of.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Originally Posted By cmshoot:
Originally Posted By m4hk33:
Meh...

Not really impressed with sombody going 5 for 6 on a 2.5 MOA registered target in a $7000 rig

Can a 308 do a 1000, of course but it's a dog. Fuck, its well known that STA struggles going 50% at 800 with bolt guns but for some reason everybody and their cousin Eddie with1/100th the formal training and resourses can  bang man sized steel at 1000 with short gas guns.



I spent 6 years in STA Platoon, I never witnessed this 50% at 800yd phenomenon you speak of.


http://www.warriortalk.com/archive/index.php/t-60414.html

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1773769_More_Powerful__Special_Ops_Sniper_Rifle_Unlikely_for_Marine_Snipers.html

Fuck we had two guys in our Platoon pull a sharpshooter on Qual day, one was a hog
Link Posted: 3/14/2016 9:43:07 PM EDT
[#18]
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Originally Posted By cms81586:


It's not supposed to impress you.  Facts are facts.  Nobody is claiming it's the most efficient way to get the job done...just that it can still get the job done. If I know I'm engaging targets past 800m I'm bringing the .338LM out of the safe.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/cms81586/Firearms/IMG_9575_zpsurflqag9.jpg
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Originally Posted By cms81586:
Originally Posted By m4hk33:
Meh...

Not really impressed with sombody going 5 for 6 on a 2.5 MOA registered target in a $7000 rig

Can a 308 do a 1000, of course but it's a dog. Fuck, its well known that STA struggles going 50% at 800 with bolt guns but for some reason everybody and their cousin Eddie with1/100th the formal training and resourses can  bang man sized steel at 1000 with short gas guns.



It's not supposed to impress you.  Facts are facts.  Nobody is claiming it's the most efficient way to get the job done...just that it can still get the job done. If I know I'm engaging targets past 800m I'm bringing the .338LM out of the safe.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/cms81586/Firearms/IMG_9575_zpsurflqag9.jpg

I bet you that I can have 3 connects on targets beyond 800m with a sub-18" 6.5 Grendel before you can have even one on from the .338 LM, both shooters starting from a standing position with rifle in-hand, with the same distance to travel to the shooting position, scopes zeroed out.

I've shot the TRG in .338 a lot, both here and in Finland.  Great rifle.  I wouldn't ever want to carry one in conflict since it's a bolt gun, unless it was in a pack with the folding stock kit.  It's actually a light rifle, and superbly accurate for the tapered barrel profile.  If part of a larger team where we have more security in numbers, it's fine.  They are good to deploy from a vehicle or while in the defense.

Where it really starts to shine is in the ELR role, or if you want high hit probability in typical sniping distances where the winds are high.

I will still have a faster time to rounds on target with a little AR15 in 6.5 Grendel though.  If you had made a similar claim to me a few years ago, I would laugh in your face.  After shooting the 16" Grendel to 1200yds, my opinion changed.  Maybe we can do a video challenge sometime.
Link Posted: 3/14/2016 10:02:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: cms81586] [#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By LRRPF52:

I bet you that I can have 3 connects on targets beyond 800m with a sub-18" 6.5 Grendel before you can have even one on from the .338 LM, both shooters starting from a standing position with rifle in-hand, with the same distance to travel to the shooting position, scopes zeroed out.

I've shot the TRG in .338 a lot, both here and in Finland.  Great rifle.  I wouldn't ever want to carry one in conflict since it's a bolt gun, unless it was in a pack with the folding stock kit.  It's actually a light rifle, and superbly accurate for the tapered barrel profile.  If part of a larger team where we have more security in numbers, it's fine.  They are good to deploy from a vehicle or while in the defense.

Where it really starts to shine is in the ELR role, or if you want high hit probability in typical sniping distances where the winds are high.

I will still have a faster time to rounds on target with a little AR15 in 6.5 Grendel though.  If you had made a similar claim to me a few years ago, I would laugh in your face.  After shooting the 16" Grendel to 1200yds, my opinion changed.  Maybe we can do a video challenge sometime.
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Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
Originally Posted By cms81586:
Originally Posted By m4hk33:
Meh...

Not really impressed with sombody going 5 for 6 on a 2.5 MOA registered target in a $7000 rig

Can a 308 do a 1000, of course but it's a dog. Fuck, its well known that STA struggles going 50% at 800 with bolt guns but for some reason everybody and their cousin Eddie with1/100th the formal training and resourses can  bang man sized steel at 1000 with short gas guns.



It's not supposed to impress you.  Facts are facts.  Nobody is claiming it's the most efficient way to get the job done...just that it can still get the job done. If I know I'm engaging targets past 800m I'm bringing the .338LM out of the safe.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/cms81586/Firearms/IMG_9575_zpsurflqag9.jpg

I bet you that I can have 3 connects on targets beyond 800m with a sub-18" 6.5 Grendel before you can have even one on from the .338 LM, both shooters starting from a standing position with rifle in-hand, with the same distance to travel to the shooting position, scopes zeroed out.

I've shot the TRG in .338 a lot, both here and in Finland.  Great rifle.  I wouldn't ever want to carry one in conflict since it's a bolt gun, unless it was in a pack with the folding stock kit.  It's actually a light rifle, and superbly accurate for the tapered barrel profile.  If part of a larger team where we have more security in numbers, it's fine.  They are good to deploy from a vehicle or while in the defense.

Where it really starts to shine is in the ELR role, or if you want high hit probability in typical sniping distances where the winds are high.

I will still have a faster time to rounds on target with a little AR15 in 6.5 Grendel though.  If you had made a similar claim to me a few years ago, I would laugh in your face.  After shooting the 16" Grendel to 1200yds, my opinion changed.  Maybe we can do a video challenge sometime.


We get it. The 6.5 Gods smite all which is not 6.5...  If you make it up to Raton, NM some time I'll take you up on the offer. This is the precision rifle forum, not the sniper rifle forum though. I couldn't care less about rate of fire, maneuverability, etc. I shoot steel targets from a long way off and the occasional coyote hunt. I'm not quite sure why you're arguing or trying to "one up" me though. A 6.5 Grendel past 1200 is as useful as a .308 past 800. It's possible but less than ideal. I've stated what's possible with a 16" .308 and what works for me (16" .308 DMR/battle rifle inside 800, magnum bolt gun past that.  While you are clearly not a fan of .308, I clearly don't care to buy a 6.5 anything rifle, brass, dies, projectiles, etc to do exactly what I'm doing now...and that's shooting steel for fun.  The horse is dead so can we stop beating it?
Link Posted: 3/14/2016 10:34:08 PM EDT
[#20]
I'm planning on being at Raton this year for Steel Safari.  Just trying to have fun, nothing intending to cause angst.
Link Posted: 3/14/2016 10:40:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Dolor] [#21]
I have no credibility but MAC did a video where he was shooting a 308 out to 1200 yards.
Not sure what this says to you guys. It may have just been luck or the perfect day.
Link Posted: 3/14/2016 10:48:39 PM EDT
[#22]
shit, we were banging steel at 1,500 with a .223 bolt trainer last weekend.

Link Posted: 3/14/2016 11:09:54 PM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
I'm planning on being at Raton this year for Steel Safari.  Just trying to have fun, nothing intending to cause angst.
View Quote



No angst at all. I get the perks of 260/6.5CM/6.5G.  I don't shoot for time or score. I just have fun with it. It's a matter of logistics for me as I have thousands of pieces of 7.62 brass and tons of projo's. 6.5's do nearly everything better than a .308, but to say .308 is no longer a viable option is sort of silly. It's won many matches in its day and put plenty of bad men down.
Link Posted: 3/14/2016 11:24:03 PM EDT
[#24]
Link Posted: 3/14/2016 11:33:16 PM EDT
[#25]

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Originally Posted By BCV:


shit, we were banging steel at 1,500 with a .223 bolt trainer last weekend.

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Banging at 1,500 feet?



 
Link Posted: 3/15/2016 12:16:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: LRRPF52] [#26]
.223 with a 90gr Berger VLD will beat most .308 loads at 100yds easily, with a very tight twist rate, like 1/6.5".

G1 BC on the Berger 90gr VLD is .534, and G7 is .274.  With the 75gr AMAX from a bolt gun, it's also very competitive at 1000yds.

Sorry for defecating all over this thread cmshoot.  I just want to see the .308 drift out of popularity as we move into the future and try to catch up with what was already available in 1896.
Link Posted: 3/15/2016 12:50:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: cms81586] [#27]
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Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
.223 with a 90gr Berger VLD will beat most .308 loads at 100yds easily, with a very tight twist rate, like 1/6.5".

G1 BC on the Berger 90gr VLD is .534, and G7 is .274.  With the 75gr AMAX from a bolt gun, it's also very competitive at 1000yds.

Sorry for defecating all over this thread cmshoot.  I just want to see the .308 drift out of popularity as we move into the future and try to catch up with what was already available in 1896.
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It's popular for a reason. It's versatile and economic, as already discussed. When 6.5 components are readily available for similar prices to .308, and it has a comparable bullet selection, many more people will join the "revolution"...


ETA: And don't forget the availability of factory ammo. I've never seen .260 Rem or 6.5 CM or G at major retail stores...and very few gun shops.
Link Posted: 3/15/2016 1:10:10 AM EDT
[#28]
Brits have a 1300 meter kill with their LMT MWS.
Link Posted: 3/15/2016 2:40:51 AM EDT
[#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By LRRPF52:  .223 with a 90gr Berger VLD will beat most .308 loads at 100yds easily, with a very tight twist rate, like 1/6.5".

G1 BC on the Berger 90gr VLD is .534, and G7 is .274.  With the 75gr AMAX from a bolt gun, it's also very competitive at 1000yds.

Sorry for defecating all over this thread cmshoot.  I just want to see the .308 drift out of popularity as we move into the future and try to catch up with what was already available in 1896.
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I knew someone was a fanboy for the 6mm Navy.  
Link Posted: 3/15/2016 5:25:14 AM EDT
[#30]
Some good info hidden in this thread.

I'm shooting a .308 now and when it is time to upgrade I'll look at a 6/6.5 something or other...  

The .308 will continue to be a large part of the market simply due to the fact of economies of scale.  As some mentioned it is just easier and cheaper to find all the stuff to make a rifle in .308 go bang.  It will be interesting to see the sales numbers between the RPR in .308 and 6.5 to see where people semi-new to this field might be headed.  But until the military gets behind the .260 or 6.5CM you won't see all the stuff out there you see for .308.

It is good to realize what the OP actually said - that it is possible where so many say it is impossible to take a short .308 to 1000.  It is possible to do the same with newer cartridges and likely easier to get similar results...

Spooky
Link Posted: 3/15/2016 10:39:33 AM EDT
[#31]
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Originally Posted By backbencher:


I knew someone was a fanboy for the 6mm Navy.  
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Originally Posted By backbencher:
Originally Posted By LRRPF52:  .223 with a 90gr Berger VLD will beat most .308 loads at 100yds easily, with a very tight twist rate, like 1/6.5".

G1 BC on the Berger 90gr VLD is .534, and G7 is .274.  With the 75gr AMAX from a bolt gun, it's also very competitive at 1000yds.

Sorry for defecating all over this thread cmshoot.  I just want to see the .308 drift out of popularity as we move into the future and try to catch up with what was already available in 1896.


I knew someone was a fanboy for the 6mm Navy.  

That and the 6.5x55 Mauser.

6mm Lee Navy was killed by the failings of the rifle it was in, which gave it a bad name, even though it was a superior cartridge to anything in its day.

MacArthur  killed the .276 Pedersen (really a .284/7mm), even after the Army said, "This is our new cartridge."

Then Army Ordnance killed any hopes of adopting a true, high efficiency intermediate cartridge in the 1950's, by going with the .30 "Light" Rifle concept.  There is nothing light about a T65-based cartridge.

TFB put out an interesting article last month after discovering some documents from 1950 that showed the British 280 cartridge to have significantly worse accuracy than the 30 Light Rifle cartridge.  You can see a more streamlined projectile design on the 280, so I suspect a conventional throat design was being used, or they were rigging the results, which they were known to do against the FAL, AR10, and later AR15 in favor of their own design, which still couldn't compete with the AR15 even after the sabotage.

The TFB article suggest that maybe these "accuracy results" were a factor in favoring the Army's own design in the .30 Light Rifle.

TFB Article

Link Posted: 3/15/2016 11:03:01 AM EDT
[#32]
I anticipate that for most purposes 7.62 will be replaced by a 6.5MM LSAT using a copper and steel bullet along the lines of the M855A1.
Link Posted: 3/15/2016 1:06:05 PM EDT
[#33]
Link Posted: 3/15/2016 1:49:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: taliv] [#34]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By cmshoot:
While I'll agree there are a whole slew of calibers that have much less drop than a .308 when both are compared at 1,000yds, I'm not aware of any that shoot flat like a laser......especially when comparing other short action calibers.   Even light 6.5's and long action magnums are dropping in excess of 20MOA when zeroed for 100yds......that's well over 200", or more than 17'.  That's a pretty droopy laser.

I never said, and never will say, that the .308 is the end-all-be-all, but I will say it is more capable than is commonly claimed on the Internet (as with most things reviled on the Internet).  

Anyways, wasn't intended to start a .308 vs .XXX argument........I've just heard too many folks saying certain shots can't be made with a .308 unless the barrel is of XX" length.  While not optimal, it is eminently and easily doable.  

SEMPER FI!
View Quote


my experience is people with 308s get so excited when they get a few hits that they come and make "it's not impossible" posts on the internet.   of course it's not impossible.  heck, miculak posted video making 1000 yard hits with a friggin handgun last year.   that doesn't mean it's eminently and easily doable.


sign up for a regular PRS match and shoot the short barreled gasser, if you really think it's easily doable and practical.   I think there are still spots in the oklahoma and south dakota matches, both of which should feature mostly belly shooting so you don't have to worry about all the fast positional stuff.

if you can get into the nebraska match, you can ride with me to save travel expense too.

if you hit 50% of available points, I'll pay your match entry fee.


i agree with LRRPF and hope the 308 goes away.    It only exists in any competition today because people make special classes for it which both acknowledge its inferiority and help perpetuate it, like the NRA's  F-T/R or the Antique Tactical Division in PRS
Link Posted: 3/15/2016 2:02:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: LRRPF52] [#35]
If I could go back in time and pay a visit to the engineers on Army Ordnance Board at the time, we would have a little talk.

"Gentlemen.  You're about to make a critical decision that will affect small arms forever.  On your current path, you are about to screw over the FAL, perpetuate the heavy rifle even after it was obsolete before the last 2 generations of rifle caliber evaluations, and place spine-crushing loads on millions of soldiers in the future, myself included.

Depending on how receptive you all are to the cartridge and TDP I am going to hand you, you will live happy and prosperous lives, and soldiers will get an excellent cartridge for both rifles and squad-level LMG's, as well as semi auto sniper systems.

If you don't heed my input, well....let's just hope you make the right choice..."
Link Posted: 3/15/2016 3:34:17 PM EDT
[#36]
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Originally Posted By taliv:



 
my experience is people with 308s get so excited when they get a few hits that they come and make "it's not impossible" posts on the internet.   of course it's not impossible.  heck, miculak posted video making 1000 yard hits with a friggin handgun last year.   that doesn't mean it's eminently and easily doable.


sign up for a regular PRS match and shoot the short barreled gasser, if you really think it's easily doable and practical.   I think there are still spots in the oklahoma and south dakota matches, both of which should feature mostly belly shooting so you don't have to worry about all the fast positional stuff.

if you can get into the nebraska match, you can ride with me to save travel expense too.

if you hit 50% of available points, I'll pay your match entry fee.


i agree with LRRPF and hope the 308 goes away.    It only exists in any competition today because people make special classes for it which both acknowledge its inferiority and help perpetuate it, like the NRA's  F-T/R or the Antique Tactical Division in PRS
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Originally Posted By taliv:
Originally Posted By cmshoot:
While I'll agree there are a whole slew of calibers that have much less drop than a .308 when both are compared at 1,000yds, I'm not aware of any that shoot flat like a laser......especially when comparing other short action calibers.   Even light 6.5's and long action magnums are dropping in excess of 20MOA when zeroed for 100yds......that's well over 200", or more than 17'.  That's a pretty droopy laser.

I never said, and never will say, that the .308 is the end-all-be-all, but I will say it is more capable than is commonly claimed on the Internet (as with most things reviled on the Internet).  

Anyways, wasn't intended to start a .308 vs .XXX argument........I've just heard too many folks saying certain shots can't be made with a .308 unless the barrel is of XX" length.  While not optimal, it is eminently and easily doable.  

SEMPER FI!



 
my experience is people with 308s get so excited when they get a few hits that they come and make "it's not impossible" posts on the internet.   of course it's not impossible.  heck, miculak posted video making 1000 yard hits with a friggin handgun last year.   that doesn't mean it's eminently and easily doable.


sign up for a regular PRS match and shoot the short barreled gasser, if you really think it's easily doable and practical.   I think there are still spots in the oklahoma and south dakota matches, both of which should feature mostly belly shooting so you don't have to worry about all the fast positional stuff.

if you can get into the nebraska match, you can ride with me to save travel expense too.

if you hit 50% of available points, I'll pay your match entry fee.


i agree with LRRPF and hope the 308 goes away.    It only exists in any competition today because people make special classes for it which both acknowledge its inferiority and help perpetuate it, like the NRA's  F-T/R or the Antique Tactical Division in PRS


Now take whatever you're shooting and try running it in a 3 gun match.  Again...it's all in what the shooter wants to be able to accomplish with the rifle.  A .260 or 6.5 CM bolt gun with a long barrel is an entirely different rifle than a 16" .308 AR or SCAR with a nice 3-18 and a red dot, both in QD mounts.  They serve entirely different purposes.  One is more specific and the other is more well rounded.  The OP's point was a 16" .308 can engage targets at 1k.  KevinB from KAC took an EMC with a 1-8 MK8 CQBSS and was shooting sub-MOA groups at 800 with it.  You can take that same rifle and run a 3 gun course or clear a building.  It's a "general purpose" design.  
Link Posted: 3/16/2016 7:52:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: DaveS] [#37]
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Originally Posted By cmshoot:


I spent 6 years in STA Platoon, I never witnessed this 50% at 800yd phenomenon you speak of.
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Originally Posted By cmshoot:
Originally Posted By m4hk33:
Meh...

Not really impressed with sombody going 5 for 6 on a 2.5 MOA registered target in a $7000 rig

Can a 308 do a 1000, of course but it's a dog. Fuck, its well known that STA struggles going 50% at 800 with bolt guns but for some reason everybody and their cousin Eddie with1/100th the formal training and resourses can  bang man sized steel at 1000 with short gas guns.



I spent 6 years in STA Platoon, I never witnessed this 50% at 800yd phenomenon you speak of.



RogerThat, Shep.

Taught '85-'86 @ Stone Bay, out of '76-'86, and never saw anything close to that from STA or students humping the M21.

QUALS for Movers @ 600yds negates such a statement.

BTW, m4hk33, this is what Hollywood Marines did with 16" gassers from Stewart Wilson, in the last da-da-damn century:
BTW II, I was never in a unit issued sunglasses... There can be only one: 1/8.

Read this thread and quit bogartin', sir.

http://www.reloadersnest.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11579
Link Posted: 3/16/2016 8:22:04 PM EDT
[#38]
My M1A Bush Rifle will do 1000 yards with 168 gr hand loads and its 1/11 twist 18 inch barrel all day long.
If "you" are good enough.

Link Posted: 3/16/2016 9:06:32 PM EDT
[#39]

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Originally Posted By Willz:


My M1A Bush Rifle will do 1000 yards with 168 gr hand loads and its 1/11 twist 18 inch barrel all day long.

If "you" are good enough.

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Which 168 and what's your elevation?



 
Link Posted: 3/16/2016 11:31:38 PM EDT
[#40]
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Originally Posted By Willz:
My M1A Bush Rifle will do 1000 yards with 168 gr hand loads and its 1/11 twist 18 inch barrel all day long.
If "you" are good enough.

View Quote


Bullshit.
Link Posted: 3/17/2016 12:58:10 AM EDT
[#41]
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Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Originally Posted By Willz:
My M1A Bush Rifle will do 1000 yards with 168 gr hand loads and its 1/11 twist 18 inch barrel all day long.
If "you" are good enough.

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Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Originally Posted By Willz:
My M1A Bush Rifle will do 1000 yards with 168 gr hand loads and its 1/11 twist 18 inch barrel all day long.
If "you" are good enough.



Bullshit.


Of course it's bullshit.
I can make the hit occasionally with a 168 Berger VLD but not consistently and I need almost zero wind.  800 is about the max for the 168 Berger VLD for me or using any 168.  I haven't  tried the tipped SMKs yet.
To do it consistently I have to use 178 Amax loaded beyond mag length. But I've only shot these in my M1A after I worked up some loads for my Rem 700. I don't run these in the M1A on a regular basis for fear of bending an Op rod, they're rather warm for my M1A.



Originally Posted By HighpowerRifleBrony:

Which 168 and what's your elevation?
 


As far as elevation for 1000, I forget at the moment,  I have it scoped and dialed in for 200,  I haven't attempted dialing up to anything beyond 600 in quite a while.



Link Posted: 3/17/2016 1:22:29 AM EDT
[#42]
Yeah, I was going to call BS too.  I watch a lot of bullets fly through the air, and have done so since 1995 on a continual basis through a spotting scope, most of them over that time being M118 173gr FMJBT, M118LR 175gr SMK, M852 168gr SMK, FGMM, and my personal rat maze with the 155gr Scenar.

The 175gr SMK and 178gr Hornady BTHP, as well as 178gr AMAX are actually pretty consistent bullets and very easy for me to give wind calls for shooters with, but the 168gr SMK and lighter weight, lower BC pills peter out at about 700-800yds, even in easy wind, when shooting from a 12 twist.

If people would just use a tighter twist with .308, it would give even mediocre bullets more legs for spin stab, but wind drift is still unacceptable for me personally, given all that is out there.
Link Posted: 3/17/2016 4:09:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: HighpowerRifleBrony] [#43]


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Originally Posted By Willz:
As far as elevation for 1000, I forget at the moment,  I have it scoped and dialed in for 200,  I haven't attempted dialing up to anything beyond 600 in quite a while.


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Originally Posted By Willz:




Originally Posted By HighpowerRifleBrony:





Which 168 and what's your elevation?


 



As far as elevation for 1000, I forget at the moment,  I have it scoped and dialed in for 200,  I haven't attempted dialing up to anything beyond 600 in quite a while.





Elevation... Whoops.





Altitude is what I meant.





 
Link Posted: 3/17/2016 7:31:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Willz] [#44]
I'm
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Originally Posted By HighpowerRifleBrony:

Elevation... Whoops.

Altitude is what I meant.
 
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Originally Posted By HighpowerRifleBrony:
Originally Posted By Willz:
Originally Posted By HighpowerRifleBrony:

Which 168 and what's your elevation?
 

As far as elevation for 1000, I forget at the moment,  I have it scoped and dialed in for 200,  I haven't attempted dialing up to anything beyond 600 in quite a while.

Elevation... Whoops.

Altitude is what I meant.
 


Almost sea level. I believe our range is 142 ft above sea level. There's a reason this area is called the low country.  
I set it up to shoot HM in 3 gun.



Link Posted: 3/18/2016 2:27:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: jBoy723] [#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By cms81586:
Lots of people here will tell you its not possible.  Bullet selection is key that's all (with the proper twist rate as already mentioned).  My EMC did good enough for hits on a full size torso at 1k with 178 AMAX and BTHP's.  I'll be pushing the SCAR out to that range as well shortly.  Yes at 6.5 will get you there with a lot less drop.  But if I want a "do everything" rifle, I'm not running a 3 Gun course with a 6.5 CM when I can shoot M80 cheap and reloads for a hell of a lot less....

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/cms81586/image_zpstey93zxv.jpg
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Same here. I've taken a few classes that were focused around the modern semi auto battle rifle and almost everyone had 16" rifles were able to get hits out to 1k. For novice LR shooters like myself and a few that were in that class, having a spotter call wind corrections is a god send. That seems to be my biggest hurdle but, something I am passionately trying to learn.


ETA: There was even a guy that went 2 for 5 with a S%B 4x Short Dot. This was a Dual Purpose/Role Carbine class and realistically, the platform and class was geared towards engaging targets from 0-600m. We just finished off the end of the class with shooting out to 1k.
Link Posted: 3/18/2016 2:48:32 AM EDT
[#46]
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Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Tell me more about the 171gr bullet.
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Sounds... familiar to me.
Link Posted: 3/18/2016 2:50:08 AM EDT
[#47]
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Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
I'm planning on being at Raton this year for Steel Safari.  Just trying to have fun, nothing intending to cause angst.
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It got moved from Logan?
Link Posted: 3/18/2016 12:29:01 PM EDT
[#48]
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Originally Posted By ziarifleman:


It got moved from Logan?
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Originally Posted By ziarifleman:
Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
I'm planning on being at Raton this year for Steel Safari.  Just trying to have fun, nothing intending to cause angst.


It got moved from Logan?

Good catch.  I'm planning on being at Logan for Steel Safari.

There was something else at Raton I have on my calendar I was looking at.
Link Posted: 3/18/2016 1:09:04 PM EDT
[#49]
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Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
I've spent a lot of time behind a spotting scope watching .308 from 16" barrels, as well as 20" and 24", and it just has a rainbow arc at long range.
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Most of my team shooting in the USMC with with the M16, with hundreds of hours behind a spotting scope.  The first time I saw the vapor trail of a M14 at 1000 yards I couldn't believe my eyes.   Looks like artillery.  

We had to shoot M14's at 1000 it wasn't horrible but we didn't have a choice.
Link Posted: 3/18/2016 2:33:11 PM EDT
[#50]
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Originally Posted By sgthoskins:


Most of my team shooting in the USMC with with the M16, with hundreds of hours behind a spotting scope.  The first time I saw the vapor trail of a M14 at 1000 yards I couldn't believe my eyes.   Looks like artillery.  

We had to shoot M14's at 1000 it wasn't horrible but we didn't have a choice.
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Originally Posted By sgthoskins:
Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
I've spent a lot of time behind a spotting scope watching .308 from 16" barrels, as well as 20" and 24", and it just has a rainbow arc at long range.


Most of my team shooting in the USMC with with the M16, with hundreds of hours behind a spotting scope.  The first time I saw the vapor trail of a M14 at 1000 yards I couldn't believe my eyes.   Looks like artillery.  

We had to shoot M14's at 1000 it wasn't horrible but we didn't have a choice.

From a 16", it's even worse.  With a range that runs from West to East, at the end of the day, the backs of the cup-based projectiles shine like tracers.

Watching a 16" .308 is like watching pond water freeze, flight time is loooooong.  Danger space is all over the map.  You can use the exact same hold, and minor cone of error in trajectory equals misses over and in front of the target.

A lot of time, you'll get hits but they look like misses because they just glance off the steel and come back towards the point of origin, kicking up dirt well in front of the target, instead of spalling out in the dirt like a more perpendicular hit will generate.
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