How about a .308 gas gun with a 20 in. bbl?  Is this a significantly different animal or still just a .308 gas gun?

Commenting on this specifically, at what point is a rifle no longer general purpose? For example, I'm planning out a 17-18" barrel .260 Rem gas gun; right caliber and enough barrel for long range learning but should in theory still be short enough for navigating a course shoothouse. Is that 16" .308 the sweet spot in barrel and caliber for both vehicle and shoothouse drills and for longer range precision stuff?

What ever barrel length you decide on, do it with the 6.5 Creedmoor.

It's 2016, don't make me explain it to you, Lucy.

.260 vs. 6.5 CM is a personal preference.

Not in a gasser.

Please explain.

 

Indeed.

I agree.

I am not shooting for money so the fact that I can load 168gr 308 Match ammo that is good to 600yds for right at 42 cents per round means I can shoot more.  If I need to I can get better bullets for shooting longer range but for my casual shooting needs 308 is just fine.  That and I can find takeoff barrels for my AIAT for at or under $400 means that last for 6K+ rounds means I save a TON of money shooting 308 over other calibers.

From my very limited understand, 260 in a gasser is port pressure nightmare. The pressure curve on the 260 is not exactly favorable for gas operated rifles due to extreme pressures at the port causing cycling issues.

Gas port pressures AIN'T a problem.  Those that think it is can purchase an adj. gas block and/or add two (2) inches of gas tube.

There's a few things that the 6.5CM has over the 260REM for short action AR rifles.

A)  The two crazies that thought of the 6.5CM as a short action Across The Board HP cartridge also,
were thinking of new/younger competitors joining the sport(s) with a hankerin' for gassers.  That means @ 2.82X" of
imprisonment for the cartridge.  

B)  Shooting for Competition & w/Mag Restrictions without a 30 degree shoulder and a case that requires the larger pills to grossly take up powder volume
is not the way to go through life, son.  Fizaks looks down on 140-143gr pills in 260REM used in perfect mags as ARMLITE's and KAC's.
Even MapPul's LR mags doesn't redeem the 260REM Metro shooters.

I do believe that I will go with the 6.5 Super LR in my first bolt gun by Gradous.

From 6mmAR.com:

.260 Rem (left) vs 6.5mm Super LR (left Center) vs 6.5 Creedmoor (right center) vs 6.5 x 47 Lapua (right)









I'm adding this because it made me LOL.  I like his style of writing and humor.
http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/the-gun-nuts/the-65-creedmoor

I guess I should sell all my .260 semi-autos and just replace them with Creedmoors that do the same thing, then.

ziarifleman,

not no BUTT!!! heck no.

I've been wondering if that BERGER 130gr AR Hybrid is going to make a null in the two choices.

EDIT: Groups and making steel ring are two different measurements.  Groups and reading wind are my passions.


Now, if you were adamant about a 16" 6.5G being superior to a 20" .308 gasser...
well then, name the bourbon and bring arse to the table, sir.

cmshoot, sorry for the hijack.

I think I might know who the OP was referring to, given the reference to the custom powdered tungsten core bullets (if it's who I think it is, he gave me a few of those a few years back).

The person doing the shooting is ultra knowledgeable about firearms, and has been consulted by major companies about helping to build precision rifles; he used to make long range rifles for hunters and select government agencies for a living.

He might be shooting an AR type rifle, but it's not anything that he purchased at the LGS; this man can make what he needs.

Those bullets are used by both elk hunters and clandestine agencies. The charges are weighed by hand on a pharmaceutical type scale, inside a glass case to prevent air movement from affecting the measurements.

He's a great guy though.

G.

So who is this mysterious stranger with the scale so pharmaceutical, it has to be kept in a glass case?

It's just a Sartorius. Probably.

Unless he's got a Prometheus...

Neither of those can weigh a finger print.

Yes, I said neither can weigh a finger print.

Didn't anyone here do titration for an unknown element in high school chemistry?
You were told to not touch your unknown sample paper because
your finger print would add false weight to your sample calculations.

Scoopalas and tweezers were to be wiped down with 99% alcohol.

That was @ 43yrs ago with Mr. Charles Cook.

Sorry about that, to those that smashed a finger building bird houses for higher electives.

Ehhh...Scoopula perhaps? The Sartorius and Prometheus are sensitive enough to produce some very nice charges, or weighing anything else that requires accurate measurement. Heck, there have been some very good F class scores and records put up with guys running a RCBS charge master. What balance were you using 43yrs ago that competes with the sartorius?

Just wondering why it's such a big deal that a guy uses a scale with a glass case. Not really that uncommon in precision reloading.

It's really not anymore.

Must be a real shitty load if the charge weight needs to be that precise.I get 7-8-9 fps SDs and mid 20s ESs just throwing powder(spherical) directly into the case.

ETA: I'm taking my 18" 223 AR to 1060 in a couple weeks . Guy said it's a 48" plate  so I'm hoping for 60-70% hits if the wind is reasonable.

What bullet are you shooting, or planning on shooting?

90gr SMK. I average 2575fps. Looks like they will go subsonic at about 1050.

If you have a tight twist, they will spin right through and not care about the speed of sound.  Those are single load though of course.  Great bullet for 1000yds.

I have a 7 twist, I load them to almost 2.500". I hope they work through transonic I just ordered another 500.

Roger That on the scoopula, sir, BUTT!!! you should have also hit me for fingerprint.

Didn't reload at 14yrs old.  But the scale I used in high school chemistry could differ <50 micrograms.
The ones I used in college did even better.

I just use a GemPro 250 at this time.

I should have grabbed the GD503 when it was @ $1K.
The MSA2.7S-000-DM is dry humping $30K.

A good reloader doesn't need a bunch of fancy high end equipment to load good ammo.  I was getting very good ES numbers and less than 1/4 moa of vertical at 1000 yards using a Lee balance beam when I was still in my first year of reloading.  I have now switched to a Dillon balance beam just because it is faster to use while still being repeatable.  It's also a myth that the 260 rem cannot be successful in a semi auto.

I understand the sentiment of the 308 owners because so many people talking negatively about it.  The 308 certainly isn't as futile as the internet would like you to believe.  I view it more as some of the other cartridges using higher BC bullets just give you an advantage.  Depending on your skill level that advantage may or may not be as big of a deal.  I've only been doing this a short time so I will gladly take the advantages my 260 gives me over the 308.  I'm talking about wind here.  Elevation is easy enough when using high quality range finders and having good dope so it shouldn't be a problem even if you have a "rainbow" trajectory.  Now if we are talking unknown distance target shooting then a super fast 6mm would probably give an advantage worth having.  

I do find it funny how people fall in love with a cartridge and go through so much effort to "push" that cartridge.  Some times even stretching the truth a bit to make it look more appealing.  I don't care if you made hits at 1200+ yards on a 3 moa target with your 223 it doesn't make it the best option for that situation.  CONDITIONS MATTER!!!  I made a first round hit on a card board IDPA target with an 18" barreled 223 from 1000 yards when I hadn't even ever fired beyond 100 yards 3 months prior to that day.  It wasn't on a square range either I hiked out and set up a target fired one round then hiked back to check the target.  One shot fired and one hit in the center of the head although I was aiming center mass.  There was no wind that day.  It was the most calm day I've ever experienced.  

If you were to get called out on any given day where you have no idea what the conditions could be or what the distance might be what cartridge are you going to want?  In other words if a friend showed up and said come on man we are going shooting today.  I want to see how good you are at long range shooting.  It's a cold day with a light mist and heavy variable winds that are shifting directions and you don't know what distance the target is going to be setup or what kind of shooting position you are going to have.  Are you still going to choose that 308 or 223 to make that shot or are you going to choose something with better external ballistics to complete that challenge if one is available to you?

I would have to completely agree.



It's the guys who haven't been lucky enough to own or shoot a nice long range rifle that still thinks a 308 or any 30 is usable at 1,000yds. I was one of those guys. Shot for 35 years before I got a F-open gun. Had no idea what I was missing (literally).



At 1,000 my 284 Shehane will print a 4" group, every single time, sometimes better.  My GAP M40 which is a great shooter at 1,000, useless.



Put a big enough target at 1,000 and you can hit it with a 22.



 

Every single time?  You must have a stack of NRA f-class national record certificates tall enough to eat your dinner off of!

That 4" group would have to be in the center.



 

Y'all use a 10-X target, correct?





 

Might be hearsay, but it's believable hearsay. I would not have passed up one of the OBR's. Those are nice pieces of work.

One guy cheats with good conditions the other cheats with a good cartridge.

If you HAVE to shoot in all conditions for your job the choice is obvious, if you do it fun, it doesn't really matter.


You can shoot your 260(140hyb@2950) in a 15mph wind while I would have the same drift in a 12mph wind with my .308(230otm@2295).
You have to be within 67 yards ranging @1k on a 100% IPSC with your 260 while I have to be within 42 yards ranging with my .308.
You have to be within 3mph wind estimate on a full 10mph with your 260 while I have to be within 2mph to get the same hits with my .308


I have to say "it's too windy to shoot"  a bit before you do and I'll need my range finder a bit before you will. That is what it comes down to.
I could spend another $5k for a better rifle or just make due with what I have. I make due because it isn't important to me that I am competitive or that I make hits in a hurricane.

nice!

congrats to you and the competitors!


i don't know the first thing about stalking but would still love to compete in some of those types of events.  

good advice, but i shot in the first PRS match and just shot my 24th and 25th PRS matches this month. (qualified for finale every year i've shot, including this year)

problem is, PRS matches are great for competition, but they're kinda bland.  team matches are more fun.  practical stages are more fun.  shooting at night is more fun.  shooting movers at night is way more fun.  having to find the targets and determine your own ranges instead of having it given to you by the match director, etc.

we don't get to do any of that in PRS matches because fun stuff = downtime.  reading the event descriptions on other sites from the USASOC comp over the past few years looks pretty fun.

The issue for me is I live in a state that leads the nation in percentage of energy that comes from wind power.  While I'm just a target shooter for fun that may shoot an F class match once in a while off a bipod just for the opportunity to spend time with better shooters I do like the advantage a 260 gives me over a 308.  I don't dislike the 308 and I may own one soon.  I also didn't have much money in my rifle until I added a McMillan stock and Nightforce optic.  Neither of those things have much impact on my performance I just wanted them.  I also wanted the DBM so I could try a PRS type match this year.  My original investment in this rifle was $2000 from snipercentral it was the lowest cost way to get into a 260 with an aftermarket barrel that I could find.  That was the price shipped to my door including the fixed 12X swfa optic and a harris bipod so well below the $5000 price mark you quoted.

Now as to choosing conditions.  I don't have that choice often.  When we get the chance to go shooting it often involves a little travel, time off from work, and hiking targets out.  It almost never fails when we plan a shooting trip the weather is less than ideal.  After getting time off from work and making the trip I'm just not going to say aww it's too windy, rainy, or the mirage is too bad.  We are going to shoot and since I never know what those conditions may be I want all the advantage I can get.  Again that is my choice, but I'm not on here "pushing" my caliber to be anything more than it is which is a slight advantage over a 308 at distance.  It's up to each individual whether or not that advantage is something they want/need for what they are doing.  For you the 308 fits your needs, but lets not make it out to be more than it is.

Yeah, but there are records for all of the 20-shot strings too. If you and your rifle shoot a 4" or better group at 1000 yards every single time, with no exceptions, you are clearly one of the best shooters and wind readers in the world.  How could you possibly have the skill to put every shot into a group that small regardless of condition, but not be able to make the proper correction to move the group to the center?  That seems odd. If your first shot comes up an 8, do you just continue through the rest of the string making corrections to keep all the rest of the shots right next to it in the 8 ring?  That would be a weird approach to the game.  

I'm pretty sure his first post was tongue in cheek.  

Heard you don't know anything about 260.

That sounds horrible.

That's movin'

I don't see any indication of that.  I'm pretty sure that Jeff is the best F-class shooter and wind reader in the country, but just can't adjust to the middle of the target.

I just don't shoot if its windy, even though the 284 Shehane is immune to wind effects. That way I never have to adjust.