Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Site Notices
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Posted: 3/10/2011 8:28:16 AM EST

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jO-ezjm5voY

Now mind you this video is only a fictional interview but what if groups like that guy exist only to steal from you or kill you when things get really desperate? I know there will be the typical smash-n-grab looters but what if you folks out in the rural areas get targeted by hostiles like this fictional character who bring in large groups of followers?

Link Posted: 3/10/2011 8:50:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/10/2011 8:51:48 AM EST by gojoe]
To many people the world is a lovely place to live, grow and explore. To others it is just a place to rob,rape and pillage. At some point in the near future, those in the second group will meet up with something that they didn't count on.


Link Posted: 3/10/2011 9:02:27 AM EST
Large groups? Got that covered.


Link Posted: 3/10/2011 9:02:38 AM EST
.....sigh.....I book marked that in case I ever need a "pick me up".
Link Posted: 3/10/2011 9:09:18 AM EST
large groups of armed hostiles...unless you have a larger group, or some sort of tactical advantage, you will be another tally mark on some guys rifle stock. there is always going to be someone that believes that they are entitled to what others have, and are willing to take by force. best advice, practice opsec. have a group. try to make sure your community survives. the lone survivalist or small group will be an easy target.

all else fails, you see someone snooping around on he outskirts of your AO. S, S, and S.

...shrug...my .02 though.
Link Posted: 3/10/2011 10:14:57 AM EST
I've said it before and I'll say it again-being completely alone in an emergency completely sucks. While I can't see the video from my Blackberry for some reason I can imagine the contents.

Along those lines, it's not enough to simply have a group-you have to train together too. Last year team shooting practice with another SFer was a real eye opener for me. We had both received training from different sources, and our vocabulary was subtly different when communicating our weapon status (loading, malfunction etc). Better to work those kinks out at the range, and not when the targets are shooting back.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 3/10/2011 10:29:52 AM EST
Originally Posted By hitnrun99:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jO-ezjm5voY

Now mind you this video is only a fictional interview but what if groups like that guy exist only to steal from you or kill you when things get really desperate?

There is no "what if" about that. I've seen people say that for years, and some of them might be a bit more credible than losers like Gunkid.

I know there will be the typical smash-n-grab looters but what if you folks out in the rural areas get targeted by hostiles like this fictional character who bring in large groups of followers?



I doubt they'd just go after the folks in the rural areas, especially if gas gets scarce. They'd probably go after people closer to them first.
Link Posted: 3/10/2011 11:01:57 AM EST
Termination with extreme prejuduce......

Ops
Link Posted: 3/10/2011 11:03:50 AM EST
I had to laugh when the guy said "We've gone after 8 targets so far with 7 successes. If they had run into anybody with any ability at all he wouldn't be around to report the score.
Link Posted: 3/10/2011 11:16:12 AM EST
Try an ban together. Make yourself as low profile as possible. If looters/Criminals come inside your perimeter with hostile intent, Safety OFF, Game ON!
Link Posted: 3/10/2011 7:04:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/10/2011 8:39:09 PM EST by Bladerunner]
The video is chilling and certainly thought provoking.

I agree with posters, that there is strength in numbers, without it survival is going to be a matter of luck. The requirement to maintain security 24/7 as well as produce food (farming, hunting, and fishing) plus take care of routine maintenance to equipment and the small farm makes this essential. Its far greater than 2 or 3 people can do, no matter how well armed or trained.

My wife and I are a retired police officer and Army officer respectively with a lot of experience and training. We are both realistic about our ability to protect ourselves, produce food, and get sufficient rest for an indefinite period of time.

I and my wife are now retired to our BOL in a relatively rural area. We have 10 acres of land, but do have neighbors close enough that I can see their lights at night. Unfortunately we don't know them and we don't have a formal/structured group such as some on the SF do.

For the moment, the only plan we have to increase our man power is to plan for and build the infrastructure to support water and food production for a larger group. I believe that there will be a lot of friends and family that in a SHTF situation will be knocking on our door wanting to be taken in. I am also trying to get to know my neighbors better as I believe we would ultimately decide to work with eachother. Most have skills that would be essential, ranging from a Physicians Assistant (PA) to mechanics and small farmers.
I would also rely on some of the local AR15.com members who get together for local shoots etc, but don't normally post here on the SF. They at least have shooting and firearms skills along with weapons and ammunition if nothing else. I believe that I can produce enough food on my land to provide vegetables for 50 people. Its possible that if I put some of the farmland owned by neighbors into grain production we could grow enough wheat, corn, and hay for the group as well as livestock.

If we are unable to collect sufficient manpower, then we will be at constant risk from being taken by a predatory group. At that point it just comes down to luck.

If we are able to gradually build a group prior to or during a SHTF event, we will constantly be playing catch up trying to train and develop SOP's.

Its difficult to defend homesteads from a raid or surprise attack.

In our case, with the cooperation of neighbors for us to establish a perimeter around approximately 100 acres with a wooded border looking out on 1000’s of acres of open farm land. It would be possible for LP/OP’s to maintain an overwatch of these large danger areas and provide early warning.

The next level of defense would be to employ roving patrols as a counter reconnaisance element looking for raider intell collection patrols without engaging them and having a quick reaction force (QRF) to kill or capture. It would also serve as a spoiler to a complex attack by a raiding party with a mission of engaging them as far as possible from the homestead compound giving defenders as much time as possible to man final defensive positions. The plan would be to pin down the raiders forcing them to deploy their forces. Then withdraw to the homestead compound. The military calls this a withdrawal under contact.

The homestead would also need to provide an overwatch security element for any work parties, whether they are working the fields, clearing land, or any other activity. The size of the security element will be dependent on the number of personnel in the group and the size of the work party.

The homestead compound itself would be the final defensive perimeter. If you reach this point, its truly your last stand. The only hope is to attrite the raiders to the point that they move on, or call for and hope other neighbors or locals will come to your assistance.

Its hard to defend against an organized group who are proficient in small unit tactics and with the ability to plan complex military operations. The infantry rule of thumb is that it takes a squad to defend 100 meters. That pretty much limits you to a mobile defense falling back on a strong point.

Unfortunately we don’t have the money to build a fortified home and still buy tractor, implements, storage buildings, seed, store food, store fuel, etc.

There are countless other tactics such as establish of surveillance and reconnaisance plans with specific intelligence requirements identified and assigned to include radio monitoring and the practice of passive techniques such as extreme OPSEC.

I would commend you to study Army FM 7-8 as well as the Ranger Handbook. They are a wealth of information on small unit tactics.

Link Posted: 3/11/2011 3:44:23 AM EST
Originally Posted By FourDeuce:
I had to laugh when the guy said "We've gone after 8 targets so far with 7 successes. If they had run into anybody with any ability at all he wouldn't be around to report the score.


Exactly.

Armed resistance after a few more attempts is going to put a damper on their morale. You also have the advantage of terrain familiarity and the ability to defend. That puts some advantage in your court. If you plan ahead, you would have recon out and about to watch for trends of passerby's or "scouts".

A sense of community even without a "justice system" existed long before modern society. Thieves generally found themselves at the end of a rope. The best option is to remain the grey man and not make yourself a target, but have the ability strike back with great violence of action.
Link Posted: 3/11/2011 4:31:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/11/2011 4:52:54 AM EST by YaNi05]
Originally Posted By TheNorseRanger:
Armed resistance after a few more attempts is going to put a damper on their morale. You also have the advantage of terrain familiarity and the ability to defend. That puts some advantage in your court. If you plan ahead, you would have recon out and about to watch for trends of passerby's or "scouts".

A sense of community even without a "justice system" existed long before modern society. Thieves generally found themselves at the end of a rope. The best option is to remain the grey man and not make yourself a target, but have the ability strike back with great violence of action.


You forget that THEY have the tactical advantage. The best example I can come up with is the Gulf War and OIF. We were stockpiling men and machines in the Gulf and in Kuwait for months. Forget the quality difference for a second. They knew we were coming, but they didn't know when and they didn't know where. Simple deception tactics worked wonders and a single SEAL team setting off some explosives caused the Iraqis to shift an entire division to protect the coast from the marine invasion they believed was happening.

Knowing that looter and thugs are headed my way would send chills up my spine because:
1) They are mobile; you are static.
2) They can attack on their terms. You have to realize this and be ready 24/7. This requires a very high amount of manpower to provide adequate over watch round the clock. Night vision would be a massive advantage for either side. Sending out roving patrols would create huge gaps in your security. You would need a couple platoons to cover a farm 24/7 using your mobile scouts.
3) You have something to lose. You have to protect the house, the supplies, the fields, etc. This gives you very little room to fire and maneuver; it's more or less an alamo type stand your ground battle.
Link Posted: 3/11/2011 4:59:59 AM EST
Great subject to ponder.

Defending against a group of "raiders" will be no small task and if I were a betting man i'd put my odds on the interlopers in the majority of cases. As mentioned above the logisitics of manning security (passive and aggressive), a reasonable rest cycle (not only physical, but mental) could potentially eat up the majority of not only time but personnel. Considering that every single activity that we do today will require significantly more time,effort and energy your "work force" will already be exhausted and stressed regardless of how much prepping was done. Even sitting with enough food and equipment to outfit 10 people for a year, the constant stresses (and boredom) of the unknown will take a toll that most probably don't fully grasp. The minutae of daily life will wear many if not all down. Complacency due to constant stress will create weaknesses, as will over confidence in personal and group abilities. The psychological component will be the key (ironically you wont know if your are psychologically prepared until you are tested). I have seen extremely well trained, disciplined and experienced soldiers with completely frayed nerves after just a few weeks of rigorous patrolling and the stresses of combat, its taxing like no other activity. Granted that is different than defending your turf, but in many ways defending your turf will be harder in that you are in for a penny, in for a pound once you commit to holding your ground. It will become a daily struggle, whether you are being actively watched or attacked.You must be ready 100% of the time and vigilance is exhausting and finite.

The standard rule of 3:1 odds in favor of the attacker dont matter as they were designed to apply to a well trained, disciplined defender in a fortified position. Again for the vast majority who prep this isnt the case.

In the case of the defender you must prevail 100% of the time. For the attacker, you just have to minimize your loses. The attacker controls the advantages of surprise, initiative,timing, duration,location and momentum, all critical assets even to the untrained.Providing the attackers arent total bugger eaters they will learn quickly and exploit every advantage they have. You are left with two options, abandoning your site or launching a coordinated counter assault (which sounds super wiz-bang and high speed but isnt at all like most think).

I have prepped for the long haul with options to cover foreseeable situations. But I also know that the odds are very stacked against us even though we know our area intimately, all of us have military experience (mainly combat infantryman), resources are excellent and the preps are there. The sobering reality is that people will want what they dont have, historically "raiders" win, think of the Goths, Huns, A.Q., Taliban, and nearly every rebel group.

As mentioned above reading (and more importantly practical excercises) will help. The Ranger Handbook, FM 7-8 (or the new updated FM 3-21.8 Infantry Rifle Platoon and Squad), FM 7-93 Long Range Surveillance Unit Operations, plus any thing on insurgencies will help.

In a worse case SHTF scenario I do not expect to attain the average life expectancy of an American male.

Moral convictions being put on hold, I'd take the job as a raider over defender every day.
Link Posted: 3/11/2011 5:01:45 AM EST
Originally Posted By YaNi05:
Originally Posted By TheNorseRanger:
Armed resistance after a few more attempts is going to put a damper on their morale. You also have the advantage of terrain familiarity and the ability to defend. That puts some advantage in your court. If you plan ahead, you would have recon out and about to watch for trends of passerby's or "scouts".

A sense of community even without a "justice system" existed long before modern society. Thieves generally found themselves at the end of a rope. The best option is to remain the grey man and not make yourself a target, but have the ability strike back with great violence of action.


You forget that THEY have the tactical advantage. The best example I can come up with is the Gulf War and OIF. We were stockpiling men and machines in the Gulf and in Kuwait for months. Forget the quality difference for a second. They knew we were coming, but they didn't know when and they didn't know where. Simple deception tactics worked wonders and a single SEAL team setting off some explosives caused the Iraqis to shift an entire division to protect the coast from the marine invasion they believed was happening.

Knowing that looter and thugs are headed my way would send chills up my spine because:
1) They are mobile; you are static.
2) They can attack on their terms. You have to realize this and be ready 24/7. This requires a very high amount of manpower to provide adequate over watch round the clock. Night vision would be a massive advantage for either side. Sending out roving patrols would create huge gaps in your security. You would need a couple platoons to cover a farm 24/7 using your mobile scouts.
3) You have something to lose. You have to protect the house, the supplies, the fields, etc. This gives you very little room to fire and maneuver; it's more or less an alamo type stand your ground battle.



Sorry for much of the duplicate info. I didnt catch up on recent posts prior to mine....
Link Posted: 3/11/2011 5:19:13 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/11/2011 5:20:05 AM EST by winxlite]
In TEOTWAWKI the rural areas will go clannish pertty quick(some places still are to a extent). If you are moving around in that situation you probably better have a good story for why and where you are going. Sooner or later they would make a mistake and wind up as crow bait on a stick.
Link Posted: 3/11/2011 5:45:04 AM EST
In a situation such as the video describes where there are roaming bands of criminals/predators looking for opportunity, it would possibly make sense to do some hunting on your own and proactively decimate their "leadership". People like that tend to be less loyal and more selfish and I could see a group like the one described in the video disintegrate pretty quickly if their leadership were destroyed.
Link Posted: 3/11/2011 6:12:52 AM EST
What element of offense is in reality a proactive defense. Groups like this guys are going to meet other groups and there would more than likely be huge battles following. In my neck of the woods, we have already started some good neighbor pacts. Group buys on ammo and arms may have already happened here. It is funny that the more people watch the world today, the more they want to get involved with others when it comes to survival.

If a watchman failed to notify his village of incoming wrath, then their blood is on his hands. But if the villagers do not heed the warning of the watchman, the blood is where it lays.
Link Posted: 3/11/2011 6:38:48 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/11/2011 6:41:59 AM EST by TomJefferson]
Link Posted: 3/11/2011 6:48:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By Bladerunner:
The video is chilling and certainly thought provoking.

I agree with posters, that there is strength in numbers, without it survival is going to be a matter of luck. The requirement to maintain security 24/7 as well as produce food (farming, hunting, and fishing) plus take care of routine maintenance to equipment and the small farm makes this essential. Its far greater than 2 or 3 people can do, no matter how well armed or trained.

(Snip)

Good post. Sounds like you've given this a lot of thought.
Link Posted: 3/11/2011 7:14:07 AM EST
Dude never mentioned a wheelbarrow, 38 special or 22lr ar15 setup.

Due to code of conduct I won't really complete my thoughts on how I compare folks like this to rabid raccoons.

When tshtf I expect to start rebuilding immediately for the most part. It will be done on a local level and it will involve setting perimeter watches for the small town I live in or where ever I wind up.

Someone absolutely out in the middle of no where and miles from anyone might have to protect themselves with no help coming.

But I see this as a group effort.

They want to pick on someone near my area and a group will be going out to help. Does not matter if it is outside the perimeter, that amount of gunfire will draw our attention and we will respond because this is a problem that does not go away.

This is a problem you solve or it solves you.

And those cheap cb radios everyone says you don't need are handy as heck for this. They will get to everyone local and let folks know others are on the way. Yeah the attackers know you are on the way but that is just how life works.

Yes ham radios are better but out here in the sticks a lot of folks still have cb radios.

Yes folks will die.

No it won't be easy to get them all.

Yes it will be a constant problem.

But I won't live in a world where folks do not go out to help others and solve problems like this.

And I do compare it to a neighbor saying they saw a coon out acting funny and it might be rabid and we all need to keep an eye out for it because it is a potential issue that needs to be solved.


Link Posted: 3/11/2011 7:59:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/11/2011 8:51:02 AM EST by TheNorseRanger]
Originally Posted By YaNi05:
Originally Posted By TheNorseRanger:
Armed resistance after a few more attempts is going to put a damper on their morale. You also have the advantage of terrain familiarity and the ability to defend. That puts some advantage in your court. If you plan ahead, you would have recon out and about to watch for trends of passerby's or "scouts".

A sense of community even without a "justice system" existed long before modern society. Thieves generally found themselves at the end of a rope. The best option is to remain the grey man and not make yourself a target, but have the ability strike back with great violence of action.


You forget that THEY have the tactical advantage. The best example I can come up with is the Gulf War and OIF. We were stockpiling men and machines in the Gulf and in Kuwait for months. Forget the quality difference for a second. They knew we were coming, but they didn't know when and they didn't know where. Simple deception tactics worked wonders and a single SEAL team setting off some explosives caused the Iraqis to shift an entire division to protect the coast from the marine invasion they believed was happening.


No, You ASSUME they have the tactical advantage. There are so many factors one can never anticipate who has an advantage. One could argue and counter argue all day long on tactical advantage.

We are talking 8-12 people with limited resources. They have to strike and move....strike and move. They don't have time to put out a scout team to observe for a week. They don't have access to air surveillance or satellite photos. They have to recon by old school methods. Find a spot and observe and your not going to learn much in a day. They are looking for targets of easy opportunity where they have little to loose.

Storming in to an unknown area with little to go on is going to get you killed. Which 4 of the 12 want to leave in a body bag? How confident are the remaining 8 going to be after loosing 4 of their comrades? Maybe I have a sniper on high ground and I also have a basement with 360 coverage.

You want to talk diversions? Maybe my diversion is a bait building where I keep a little gas and supplies, but make it look good like it is a huge load. Maybe I have a huge load of tannerite where it can be detonated from my house and ignite gas and gun powder?


Originally Posted By YaNi05:
Knowing that looter and thugs are headed my way would send chills up my spine because:
1) They are mobile; you are static.
2) They can attack on their terms. You have to realize this and be ready 24/7. This requires a very high amount of manpower to provide adequate over watch round the clock. Night vision would be a massive advantage for either side. Sending out roving patrols would create huge gaps in your security. You would need a couple platoons to cover a farm 24/7 using your mobile scouts.
3) You have something to lose. You have to protect the house, the supplies, the fields, etc. This gives you very little room to fire and maneuver; it's more or less an alamo type stand your ground battle.


Being mobile is only beneficial if you have intelligence and information feeds. You are out in the open and exposed. That is not very comforting either.

Just imagine you are in the looter party driving down the road in a pair of trucks. A pair of snipers takes out each of your two vehicles. Now you are taking fire from all around? How great is it being mobile now? It's not and you are in a world of hurt. A party of 5 could easily wipe the whole group out.

As I stated you can argue all day both ways about tactics and who has the upper hand. Yes they can attack on "their" terms, but they also have to process your terms in defense. Good or bad. They also have to abide by the 24/7 watch rule. If you are smart you won't be predictable.

All battle plans are great, but thrown out the window once the first shot is fired. Just when you think you are the best, there is always someone better. But that advantage does not always go to the bad guy. It's a fictional scenario setup to instill fear and show the bad guys in the power position. It could just as well go the other way.

If this were the knitting forum, then I might quake in my boots. But this is the SHTF forum and I bet the looters would have a lot less advantage than once might want to make believe. Besides the rest of the world (community) will band again to form something close to what we had. Those 12 won't last long....guaranteed.
Link Posted: 3/11/2011 10:12:53 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/11/2011 10:41:45 AM EST
Originally Posted By Forest:
Originally Posted By TheNorseRanger:
We are talking 8-12 people with limited resources. They have to strike and move....strike and move. They don't have time to put out a scout team to observe for a week.

I'm curious as to why you'd think that. It's an easy thing to do with little chance you'd be caught, all it takes is a decent location, a pair of binoculars, and a cold camp.

Find a spot and observe and your not going to learn much in a day.

You might be surprised.

They are looking for targets of easy opportunity where they have little to loose.

True, but they'll also look for 'prepared' people who either have chinks in their armor or not enough people to stop them. Easy is nice, but prepared people means more food and ammo.

Which 4 of the 12 want to leave in a body bag?

It's been my experience that younger people think they are invincible and never think 'it will be them'. Not really an issue unless the looters are made up of a bunch of 40-50 year olds.

Maybe I have a sniper on high ground and I also have a basement with 360 coverage.

I'd like to see a basement with 360 degree coverage - you must have alot of windows on each wall.


You want to talk diversions? Maybe my diversion is a bait building where I keep a little gas and supplies, but make it look good like it is a huge load. Maybe I have a huge load of tannerite where it can be detonated from my house and ignite gas and gun powder?

Just imagine you are in the looter party driving down the road in a pair of trucks. A pair of snipers takes out each of your two vehicles. Now you are taking fire from all around? How great is it being mobile now? It's not and you are in a world of hurt. A party of 5 could easily wipe the whole group out.

What you just described is an ambush. Meaning the shooters have to be in position already.

Do you know how to combat an ambush? It generally means all those guys in the truck are going to be comming at you while pouring out fire....

If you are smart you won't be predictable.

Remember you're not talking about a TOC filled with Spec Ops personnel, you're talking about farm/house with families inside. Predicablity is inevitable, and some of the 'unpredictable stuff' may be kids sneaking out (where they can get kidnapped - similar to the scenario in the video).

But this is the SHTF forum and I bet the looters would have a lot less advantage than once might want to make believe.

Remember a man with nothing left to lose is a very dangerouse wildcard. I'd expect predators like the type mentioned in the video would have that kind of mentality.




You're making quite a few assumptions yourself. Like many conversations on this forum there are just too many variables to really hit on any universal truth other than do the best you can with what you have at that time.
Link Posted: 3/11/2011 10:56:14 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/11/2011 10:56:26 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/11/2011 11:00:54 AM EST by TheNorseRanger]
Originally Posted By Forest:
Originally Posted By TheNorseRanger:
We are talking 8-12 people with limited resources. They have to strike and move....strike and move. They don't have time to put out a scout team to observe for a week.

I'm curious as to why you'd think that. It's an easy thing to do with little chance you'd be caught, all it takes is a decent location, a pair of binoculars, and a cold camp.

Find a spot and observe and your not going to learn much in a day.

You might be surprised.

They are looking for targets of easy opportunity where they have little to loose.

True, but they'll also look for 'prepared' people who either have chinks in their armor or not enough people to stop them. Easy is nice, but prepared people means more food and ammo.

Which 4 of the 12 want to leave in a body bag?

It's been my experience that younger people think they are invincible and never think 'it will be them'. Not really an issue unless the looters are made up of a bunch of 40-50 year olds.

Maybe I have a sniper on high ground and I also have a basement with 360 coverage.

I'd like to see a basement with 360 degree coverage - you must have alot of windows on each wall.


You want to talk diversions? Maybe my diversion is a bait building where I keep a little gas and supplies, but make it look good like it is a huge load. Maybe I have a huge load of tannerite where it can be detonated from my house and ignite gas and gun powder?

Just imagine you are in the looter party driving down the road in a pair of trucks. A pair of snipers takes out each of your two vehicles. Now you are taking fire from all around? How great is it being mobile now? It's not and you are in a world of hurt. A party of 5 could easily wipe the whole group out.

What you just described is an ambush. Meaning the shooters have to be in position already.

Do you know how to combat an ambush? It generally means all those guys in the truck are going to be comming at you while pouring out fire....

If you are smart you won't be predictable.

Remember you're not talking about a TOC filled with Spec Ops personnel, you're talking about farm/house with families inside. Predicablity is inevitable, and some of the 'unpredictable stuff' may be kids sneaking out (where they can get kidnapped - similar to the scenario in the video).

But this is the SHTF forum and I bet the looters would have a lot less advantage than once might want to make believe.

Remember a man with nothing left to lose is a very dangerouse wildcard. I'd expect predators like the type mentioned in the video would have that kind of mentality.



Wow, where to begin. Well, first thing didi you watch the video?

He did say, "We move from place to place like locust". I would take that as "we move from place to place"

Yeah sure they may kill the unarmed farmer down the road, but not everyone is a sheep.

If you seriously think 12 people are going to stand up to even a small community of 800 people you are mistaken. If they stay put, they will be found and killed...period and end of story and you can argue all you want.

The plain simple truth of life is communities tend to band together and that small rogue groups of thugs won't last long. Most people are decent and we out number the thieves by large numbers. If they are seen in that small town, once they get to the next town, odds are people will be warned. Maybe because of that warning, they already have shooters in place.

As I said one can argue all day long about tactics on both sides, but the plain simple fact of the matter is that yes it is an interesting video to watch and keep in the back of your mind.

But the criminals are NOT always top dog. Sometimes the sheepdog gets a jump on the wolf.

Remember a man who loves his family and will protect them at all cost is just as dangerous as loose cannon. You get between me and my family and I guarantee a bad day for someone else. I will have already planned everything I can do to the best of my ability to ensure they remain safe.

If you want to root for the bad guy and think everyone else is doomed....go ahead. It's a free country, but I guarantee you that of their 8 attempts I will be the one that did not go well for them.....ymmv.

Link Posted: 3/11/2011 10:57:47 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/11/2011 11:27:43 AM EST by Waldo]
Link Posted: 3/11/2011 10:59:17 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/11/2011 11:12:43 AM EST by skunkwerx]
Give me about 20 minutes.
I can make sure they have to do the last 1/2 mile or so on foot.


edit: Your defense would be similar to any armed home invasion, or a few vehicles full of gang members.
because thats all these punks will be, gangs. A disorganized cluster-f*&k of greed driven pillagers.

Their leadership will be questionable, if there is any leadership...
.....as we know how quickly that can deteriorate when someone tries to elect themselves king of the punks.

Most of these types of individuals have no respect for authority, of any kind,
so how is some half-wit amongst non-wits going to organize them?
Are they going to run drills? train?

Attrition will wittle them down, if they don't run out of fuel first. People protecting their homes, families, and last bit of food won't let it go easily.

A group like this might walk over some sheep, and become complacent, that it is so easy,
but when they meet their first armed sheepdog they will get a big surprise.

Have a plan, no doubt. Don't take it lightly.
But also, don't lose the battle in your mind by convincing yourself they are some kind of invincible Death Squad. They aren't.






Link Posted: 3/11/2011 11:16:32 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/11/2011 12:07:29 PM EST by Echo2]
Tactics are important.....

However.....If you plan now.....prepare now......and have a plan of action.....the odds may come out in your favor.

The video does give you a bit to think about.....but all of us have given it some thought.....and we don't think...."that will never happen".

Our thoughts are.... you are only going to stick your finger into the hornets nest so many times before you decide that it's not that good of an idea to continue doing so.

Not saying that it couldn't happen.....but I'll be damned if I'm just going to hand it over.....it will be one of the more expensive meals you'll ever get.

Echo2

Edit...wurds rong
Link Posted: 3/11/2011 11:43:36 AM EST
Prevention is worth and ounce of cure. Two things come to mind to keep people away without resorting to confrontation.

#1 Signs "Rattlesnake Infested Area Caution" I read were a farmer put that up to keep people from hunting on his land. Any kind of hazmat sign. A good one would be a biological contamination sign posted every 100 feet.

#2 Traps and snares. A nail thru the boot/foot will turn back many people
Link Posted: 3/11/2011 11:45:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/11/2011 11:48:15 AM EST by FourDeuce]
This thread reminds me of that line James Earl Jones had in Gardens of Stone(He made a good Sergeant Major). "Some days the bear gets you. Some days you get the bear. Yum yum."

"I'd expect predators like the type mentioned in the video would have that kind of mentality."

It's not their mentality that is important. It's their ability(or tactical proficiency as the Army calls it). No matter how bad they want what you have, if they(and their band of merry men) don't have the ability, they won't be able to take it.
Link Posted: 3/11/2011 11:50:37 AM EST
Originally Posted By Echo2:
Tactics are important.....

However.....If you plan now.....prepare now......and have a plan of action.....the odd may come out in your favor.

The video does give you a bit to think about.....but all of have given it some thought.....and we don't think...."that will never happen".

Our thoughts are.... you are only going to stick your finger into the hornets nest so many times before you decide that it's not that good of an idea to continue doing so.

Not saying that it couldn't happen.....but I'll be damned if I'm just going to hand it over.....it will be one of the more expensive meals you'll ever get.

Echo2


Well said.

A predatory group might walk over some sheeple,
but get a hand full of determined neighbors or extended family banded together, and 8 to 12 guys are going to suffer 25%? 30%? 50% casualties?
They won't last long at that rate.

Last thought: Gun shots can be heard miles away. So these guys are just going to shoot up farm house?
a small neighborhood? And no one is going to hear it?


Link Posted: 3/11/2011 12:06:54 PM EST
Originally Posted By TUBBY:
An ounce of Prevention is worth a pound of cure. Two things come to mind to keep people away without resorting to confrontation.

#1 Signs "Rattlesnake Infested Area Caution" I read were a farmer put that up to keep people from hunting on his land. Any kind of hazmat sign. A good one would be a biological contamination sign posted every 100 feet.

#2 Traps and snares. A nail thru the boot/foot will turn back many people


Link Posted: 3/11/2011 12:09:11 PM EST
Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
Oh boy! I get to approach another of my pet peeves.

Anyone who reads gun forums knows how many people are almost counting on the day to get to be this guy in this video. We call that, the "I have a gun so I will survive syndrome." We try often to remind them, THEY ARE why we have guns.

We also know it sure doesn't take as much as a "Lights Out" or EOTWAWKI for this type to surface. What happened at NOLA Katrina was in the all news.

They ARE exactly why the "Hermit Survival" philosophy is a plan to fail. The first duty in crisis is to secure the safety of your loved ones. The second duty is to help to restore order. Yes, we may all have to hunker down like a "Hermit" for a while but a policy of isolation means ultimately failure and you don't need EOTWAWKI to experience that. Not even the historic Mountain Men or especially the early European settlers survived without community. I don't care how tactical cool your favorite gun is, one man can not hold off an Army and eventually you're done for.

In some cases, isolation not only targets you with criminals but the community. Isolated you have absolutely no influence on community and no influence in community policy. I often compare this to kids at Halloween, the trick is always on the butthole first.

Another topic just brought up yesterday was handout guns and if they had any value. Well I can say this, if my neighbor comes to me and says we're putting a possie together that's going out to catch those criminals, I may or may not be able to say, "I'm going along", but I'll damn sure be able to help them in one way or another.

So what does this mean to the masked man in the vid? Guess what buddy, you are the guy we're coming after. Enjoy your rampage because the Sheepdogs and converted Sheep are coming after your butt and this time you won't have the element of surprise and overwhelming numbers.

Tj


Good summary. Community matters alot.
Link Posted: 3/11/2011 12:13:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/11/2011 12:14:45 PM EST by GlutealCleft]
You have to remember that predators do what they do to survive, and if the danger level is too high, they will simply move on to an easier target. When they meet with any significant resistance, they are likely to move on to easier prey.
Link Posted: 3/11/2011 12:15:12 PM EST
Originally Posted By skunkwerx:

Well said.

A predatory group might walk over some sheeple,
but get a hand full of determined neighbors or extended family banded together, and 8 to 12 guys are going to suffer 25%? 30%? 50% casualties?
They won't last long at that rate.



Probably true, but keep in mind that there will probably be more than a single predatory group in the area. There may be two, three, or more. The bigger and stronger the community, the stronger the defense that can be maintained. Also, once a community knows that the predators are in the viscinity, hunter-killer operations can be employed if the community is large enough.
Link Posted: 3/11/2011 12:37:58 PM EST
I was unable to see the vid, so these questions may not apply...

What are you planning on defending? A house? A compound? A town? The manpower requirements go up quick, and the likelyhood of dissent or infighting go up too. Then tactical decisions... do we just watch roads, or open land as well? Where do you drw the line? It is easy to defend a cluster of buildings compared to miles of perimeter that enclose nearby farms. In a SHTF situation it will be more doable, but if you intend to survive long term, you may have problems.

Also, the idea of machinegunning trucks cruisingdown the highway... do they have "LOOTERS" stenciled on the truck? What if they're refugees? People trying to get home or to their BOL?

SHTF and EOTWAWKI are two very different situations.
Link Posted: 3/11/2011 12:54:31 PM EST
Originally Posted By Sixpack595:
I was unable to see the vid, so these questions may not apply...

What are you planning on defending? A house? A compound? A town? The manpower requirements go up quick, and the likelyhood of dissent or infighting go up too. Then tactical decisions... do we just watch roads, or open land as well? Where do you drw the line? It is easy to defend a cluster of buildings compared to miles of perimeter that enclose nearby farms. In a SHTF situation it will be more doable, but if you intend to survive long term, you may have problems.

Also, the idea of machinegunning trucks cruisingdown the highway... do they have "LOOTERS" stenciled on the truck? What if they're refugees? People trying to get home or to their BOL?

SHTF and EOTWAWKI are two very different situations.


Ideally a town would be broken down into neighborhood jurisdictions. Each neighborhood would have people assigned responsibilities ranging from security to food production to sanitation. Additionally the neighborhoods would ideally be linked/communicate together to coordinate those same responsibilities on a larger scale. So if one neighborhood experiences an attack, the entire town can mobilize a force (which would still be only a fraction of the town's population) for addressing the threat.

Yes, I'm well aware that many communities accross the country will be unable to manage such organization. Those that are able to do so will fare much better in both the short and long run.
Link Posted: 3/11/2011 1:43:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/11/2011 1:45:15 PM EST by SPBCTS]
to the OP...

Well, I'd like to think the situation and circs will dictate how they get dealt with, but always from a position of strength, if we have planned right.
One starving man caught tripping a motion sensor as he gets withing 100 yards of the chcken house, trying to stealing a chicken to feed 3 starving kids he has hiding in the brush is going to get a different response than 6 armed men caught in the mid- perimeter low-crawling towards the bunkhouse at zero-dark-thirty.
The point here is to put yourself in the position of authority through surprise and superior planning and firepower. The guy stealing the chicken might wind up with a couple of MREs for the kids and a good look at a few well armed and well trained folks advising him to never return again if he wishes to live.
The 6 armed men are probably not going to like it when they are confronted by invisible people. They will examine their own motives, find them les than honorable, and then fight or flight will kick in, and we will be forced to deal with their choice.
Their choice.
Planning your security in such a manner as to give yourself layers of protection and choices in response levels. You want those choices, you want to control as many as the variables as possible, giving you as many options as possible with the least risk to your people.
Link Posted: 3/11/2011 3:01:58 PM EST
There is one dangerous assumption....that they will have no effective leadership. We had some training videos of gangbangers....they moved like they had been to urban warfare school...they had there are a lot of gangbangers in the military.
Link Posted: 3/11/2011 5:38:40 PM EST
There are plenty of dangerous assumptions. Just because a group may start out with effective leadership doesn't mean they will keep their effective leadership. Just because a gangbanger(or anybody else) served in the military doesn't mean they are effective leaders. I spent 15 years in the Army and during that time I saw some people who had been in the military longer than I had, and some of them were effective leaders and others were not. Even old Gunkid claimed to have served in the military, but his knowledge of tactics didn't impress me.
I'd say the odds are against any gangs of thugs having any effective leaders, but realize that doesn't mean they CAN'T have them.
Link Posted: 3/11/2011 5:44:24 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/11/2011 6:22:22 PM EST
"The only 'dangerous' assumption is that the group lacks effective leadership."

Actually, like I said before, there are PLENTY of dangerous assumptions. If the gang assumes their intended victims lack effective leadership it will be dangerous for them. Anybody making assumptions will be risking their lives.

"Gangs today don't survive and thrive because they lack effective leadership."

No, they survive and thrive because they know the rules and play the system to take advantage of the "rules". If the rules change, then they would have to change or they woud die. That was one of the points people used to point out to Gunkid, that he might be able to victimize some people now and get away with it because the cops locked him away in a comfy prison. If law enforcement is left up to the people being victimized many of the gang members will find out the hard way that people they have victimized are not even close to the court system they are used to playing.
Effective leadership in an inner-city neighborhood is very different from effective leadership in a military encounter. By the same token, there are many kinds of effective leadership. Trying to claim one type of leadership will work for every occasion is another dangerous assumption.


"Indeed if they didn't have decent leadership the LEOs would have rolled them up long ago."

Not necessarily. The LEOs now have their hands tied by the rules which they have to obey. Private citizens in a SHTF situation will not have their hands tied by any such rules or system. Gangbangers know they can play the system and get coddled for a few years if they get busted now, but that game depends on the current system being in place.
Link Posted: 3/11/2011 6:49:40 PM EST
Originally Posted By FourDeuce:
"The only 'dangerous' assumption is that the group lacks effective leadership."

Actually, like I said before, there are PLENTY of dangerous assumptions. If the gang assumes their intended victims lack effective leadership it will be dangerous for them. Anybody making assumptions will be risking their lives.

"Gangs today don't survive and thrive because they lack effective leadership."

No, they survive and thrive because they know the rules and play the system to take advantage of the "rules". If the rules change, then they would have to change or they woud die. That was one of the points people used to point out to Gunkid, that he might be able to victimize some people now and get away with it because the cops locked him away in a comfy prison. If law enforcement is left up to the people being victimized many of the gang members will find out the hard way that people they have victimized are not even close to the court system they are used to playing.
Effective leadership in an inner-city neighborhood is very different from effective leadership in a military encounter. By the same token, there are many kinds of effective leadership. Trying to claim one type of leadership will work for every occasion is another dangerous assumption.


"Indeed if they didn't have decent leadership the LEOs would have rolled them up long ago."

Not necessarily. The LEOs now have their hands tied by the rules which they have to obey. Private citizens in a SHTF situation will not have their hands tied by any such rules or system. Gangbangers know they can play the system and get coddled for a few years if they get busted now, but that game depends on the current system being in place.


I would suspect this is one reason why there are less gang problems in rural America. Not everyone is willing to play by the system's rules, and rural citizens tend to be more self reliant and less dependant on the police than suburban citizens.
Link Posted: 3/12/2011 2:01:35 AM EST
One of the more gruesome tactics (assuming TEOTWAWKI) is the bad guy graveyard near the road. Put up a couple of headstones and label them something along the lines of "raider", or "brigand" or something.

To be really effective, they should be occupied, just in case the bad guys decide to see if you're serious. Of course, in TEOTWAWKI, bodies shouldn't be all that hard to find, and unprotected interment should render the remains inconclusive pretty quickly.

I'm not going to beat my chest here or huddle into a corner and give up because I don't have a combat brigade to guard my shit. I'll just allow as how it's like rolling a car. Nearly anything can happen, but if you've taken a few basic precautions, your chances of survival go way up.

Remember, the attacker must vanquish, the defender must only survive.
Link Posted: 3/12/2011 2:52:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/12/2011 2:55:06 AM EST by skunkwerx]
Originally Posted By TheOTHERmaninblack:
One of the more gruesome tactics (assuming TEOTWAWKI) is the bad guy graveyard near the road. Put up a couple of headstones and label them something along the lines of "raider", or "brigand" or something.

To be really effective, they should be occupied, just in case the bad guys decide to see if you're serious. Of course, in TEOTWAWKI, bodies shouldn't be all that hard to find, and unprotected interment should render the remains inconclusive pretty quickly.

I'm not going to beat my chest here or huddle into a corner and give up because I don't have a combat brigade to guard my shit. I'll just allow as how it's like rolling a car. Nearly anything can happen, but if you've taken a few basic precautions, your chances of survival go way up.

Remember, the attacker must vanquish, the defender must only survive.


I like actual heads on pikes myself. of course, that means you have to have at least one successful operation to get the heads.

Gangs today work within our system. They hide behind laws and work the justice system their benefit.
They know today that most people are unarmed, and they can do as they please.
The paradigm shift happens when things go to shit, and most people are armed and wary.

As Shane said, community will one of the most important factors.
So we hear an assumption these roving bands of marauders will have excellent leadership,
but in nearly the same breath we say that communities won't be able to organize??
A bit of a double standard there.

Let's be realistic, some gangs will be very well outfitted and have good leadership. Some communities will be sheeple,
and still think the .Gov is going to help, and other communities will establish a fortified perimeter,
well armed with watchmen and other gangs will be bumbling idiots.

As with any scenario, it will be a hodgepodge, depending on what day, what gang and what community.
Using the current Gang comparison, they have adapted to their 'hood, in a urban setting, under current law.

How will they adapt to a more rural setting? When someone has been hunting, fishing and camping their whole life?
Baggy pants, gold chains and stainless 9mms isn't exactly conducive to moving through wooded areas undetected.
In the city, in their hood? They will OWN the place. Not so much elsewhere.

As Forest said, planning for the worst is going to put you in the best place, but realistically,
the way the person in the Vid describes it, is NOT how it will work out for them. They will attrit pretty rapidly.

Don't fall into the fear trap being set by this video, and get psyched out before the event even happens.

Thinking they will rove and pillage with impunity isn't reality. It will be somewhere in between.

My point is that they are not some undefeatable Death Squad as the video is trying to get across.
But the other points made are also spot-on, if you don't have a plan, you can and will get caught with your pants down....
...and it won't take SHTF, it could be a home invasion next week.

Have a Plan. Have 2 or 3. IF this, THEN that. Be prepared.
Link Posted: 3/12/2011 4:10:20 AM EST
Originally Posted By Forest:
Originally Posted By FourDeuce:
There are plenty of dangerous assumptions. .


The only 'dangerous' assumption is that the group lacks effective leadership. If you assume they don't have it - and they do - you're screwed.

If you assume they do have effective leadership, and it turns out they don't your sitting pretty. Assuming they are better than they turn out to be is generally not dangerous.

Gangs today don't survive and thrive because they lack effective leadership. Indeed if they didn't have decent leadership the LEOs would have rolled them up long ago.



a *local* gang punk here was busted not all that long ago for some dumb shit and as it turns out he had an honorable discharge from one of our armed forces.

after talking with some others *in the know* he's not the only low life in a particular group with military training. more than one of these dirtbags has had time *down range*. nothing like having uncle sam condition you to getting shot at while performing your duties.



for what it's worth these guys know nothing less than the basics of command structure. let's go out on a limb and say one or two guys in a gang (any gang, any where) were infantry and have a tour or two in a rough, dirty place under their belts. their ability to assault an objective will be better than most peoples defenses to the same.

they can do more with less and come out on top. even a modest group of *survivors* doesn't stand much of a chance of defending against a reinforced fire team sized element that has training, equipment and the will to kill without hesitation.

will old Jimbo from down the street double tap a 20 year old kid or will he try to reason with him? that *kid* was killing people in a shit hole country last year and now he's hungry and dangerous. running with wolves has jacked up his sense of loyalty and honor but his reasons matter not. the fact that he will kill without hesitation and take what he wants remains true. this isn't much of a reaching scenario, there are news stories reporting on the militarization of gangs. how they recruit guys to either go in and get the training to bring home or they actively seek out Vets. no assumption, it's a fact.



most sheep or converted sheep lack the intestinal fortitude to really do the hard thing.... that's why they're sheep. it's sad but i've made my peace with the possibility that during a real SHTF we're going to loose a lot of good people. the predators are going to get 'em and there's not much that we can do about it. to some extent it's a survival of the fittest / natural selection kind of thing.

would i stand by and let something happen to another person? absolutely not but i can't be everywhere at once and neither can all of the other sheepdogs.

just remember that your liberal neighbor who doesn't like your guns will still suck after SHTF. far to many unknowns in banding together with *the locals* that you don't know but it may be the only way to survive. the best idea i've come up with thus far is to keep some form of LE in place if you live in a town / community.



Link Posted: 3/12/2011 4:28:22 AM EST
Underestimating your enemy can be a fatal mistake.

Also, considering the above example of the father of three kids stealing a chicken; consider that giving him food and showing him how well fed and supplied you are could backfire. He may be a nice guy, but he may run his mouth to the wrong person about what he saw and put your family in jeopardy.

A lot depends on the circumstances, but in general, you're much better just running him off. Or discouraging him from ever getting that close to begin with.

Az
Link Posted: 3/12/2011 4:36:20 AM EST
In terms of assumptions....nearly everything on this forum is assumptions at least how it relates to what can, could, should, wont or will happen. Since the majority havent been through SHTF or war for that matter its speculation pure and simple, though some is educated and tempered with similar real world experience.

Assuming that those who would steal from any of us are simply gold chain wearing, nickel plated 9mm gangsters may be a touch off of what the video maker was trying to convey.

His comments were that they all had basic military training. Not that they were average street thugs (even though their conduct is the same). And in the context of the fictional characters remarks, they obviously pick targets based on knowing their own capabilities and trying to accurately assess their potential targets. I didnt see him advocating his 12 vs a town of 800.

Restructuring the discussion to cover ghetto gang bangers is a strawman in many ways. That is an assumption not even based in a single fact as laid out by our fictional guest.

This is a question I often think about. In most areas there is no sense of community (It will be those with communities who do support each other currently who comment to refute this point) today. Sure we may like neighbors but in terms of setting up a post SHTF stable society we are all lacking. I wonder how many rural communities simply just fill their own sand bags when the rivers flood and have no .gov help. No thanks national guard, we got it (again the rare exceptions will post about this). How many people have experience organizing an entire community for any cause let along rebuilding a crushed world? And all of these people who "you" are going to organize....they come to you why? because of guns and food? Is it because you are the self proclaimed new sheriff with the men and guns to back it? The fine line between thug and lawman grows thinner when current restraints are lifted. And all of the people who you, we ,she,he will unite are the same people who are always called sheeple. How do you swing from disgust with "sheeple" to sympathizing with them taking them in and providing for them?

I am not trolling here. I am an @sshole but that doesnt negate the points.

Some dude way back named Sun Tzu spoke of the importance of knowing your enemy as well if not better than yourself. That is logic still in use by the Military. Saying you will put heads on stakes etc is almost laughable, as is having houses rigged to blow (tannerite is hydroscopic and loses its potential quickly), or snipers just waiting to shoot at moving vehicles through windshields. Seriously, how many snipers do you have that you can have 2 on site 24/7? Let alone multiple sites. Maybe some former SOTIC cadre or something.

I advise reading the book "On Killing" and read about how people actually act when in the life or death situations, not just now but historically.
Link Posted: 3/12/2011 4:40:27 AM EST
Originally Posted By ArmedSuspect:

just remember that your liberal neighbor who doesn't like your guns will still suck after SHTF. far to many unknowns in banding together with *the locals* that you don't know


Every circumstance requires it's own decision. I know more than one liberal that owns guns, and is trustworthy. I've also heard several die hard conservatives state that in a teotwawki situation, they will be taking what they need by force. There won't be any black and white hats. The most important thing in a survival situation is your brain. Don't rely on labels and presuppositions. Try to get facts. There will be tons of misinformation floating around.

Az
Link Posted: 3/12/2011 5:31:35 AM EST
….”I look for any sort of light, even a small flash indicates someone with electricity, that means a rich target”….

JAJAJAJA!!
You can’t make this stuff up.
… hmm… no, that means someone's home, prepared, most likely armed. Therefore you look for the nice house with clearly no one inside just waiting to be broken into.
I mean, is it that hard to do just a bit of research and actually understand what real criminals (and not make believe fantasy ones) are really like, or how they act during blackouts?


"We look for fuel, food and other valuable supplies"

Nope. Cash, jewelry and gold, they’ll take guns and drugs too, in that order of priority.
Bad guys want money, or whatever can be turned into money as fast as possible. That may include a nice vehicle or one that is in high demand in the spare parts market. This means that some ordinary vehicle are highly sought after precisely because they are very common.
Amateurs will take electronics, like nice cell phones, cameras or laptops, but most pros wont even bother with them. That’s what criminals look for all around the world.


“We only attack when our supplies become too low to survive”

No man. Criminals attack because that’s what they do. They “work” all day, just like the rest of us do.

“We prefer none of our victims to survive”

The majority of people survive unless they try to fight back (usually without knowing how to do it) or face particularly cruel attackers, sometimes stoned, which unfortunately is becoming more and more common. Serious, organized criminal like the one this fake interview is supposed to represent, prefers not to have to deal with people at all, and if they do they (generally) prefer not to shot you if you play along. Then again when its homesteads or farms, they suppose you have some money stash somewhere so torture is used, specially if they are high things get very nasty. There’s also the chance of rape, but those that consider themselves real pros are (usually) not into that and consider what they do a “job”, like going to an office each day. Lots of usually and generally because nothing is 100% certain. I wont put my family in the hands of these SOB though, so I’ve already made up my mind about what to do.

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
They ARE exactly why the "Hermit Survival" philosophy is a plan to fail. The first duty in crisis is to secure the safety of your loved ones. The second duty is to help to restore order. Yes, we may all have to hunker down like a "Hermit" for a while but a policy of isolation means ultimately failure and you don't need EOTWAWKI to experience that. Not even the historic Mountain Men or especially the early European settlers survived without community. I don't care how tactical cool your favorite gun is, one man can not hold off an Army and eventually you're done for.

In some cases, isolation not only targets you with criminals but the community. Isolated you have absolutely no influence on community and no influence in community policy. I often compare this to kids at Halloween, the trick is always on the butthole first.


Tj


Exactly.

FerFAL
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Top Top