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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 6/27/2005 9:24:24 AM EDT
Were you taught in your class that CCW in a convenience store that sold liquor is illegal? Or is it just illegal to CCW in a bar?

357mag
Link Posted: 6/27/2005 6:59:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/28/2005 5:51:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wiggy762:
Any location that dispenses alcohol is a no-go for CCW...bars, grocery and convenience stores, even sporting event that sell ETOH are off limits for CCW.



I just wanted to confirm that.

In reading NM law there seems to be a distinction between a dispensor of alcohol and a retailer of alcohol. Walmart would fit the definition of a retailer. The definition of a dispensor is somewhat ambiguous. I believe they are misinterpreting the law.

357mag
Link Posted: 6/28/2005 10:55:08 AM EDT
Any place that sells (dispenses) booze is off limits, bars, lounges, convience stores, groceries stores, etc. Here's a excerpt from www.Packing.org:

"****Includes convenience stores selling alcohol for off premises consumption.

There still seems to be some confusion regarding our alcohol laws. Here's the complete text you need to understand. The word "dispense" in NM does not differentiate between on-premise or off-premise consumption.

" 30-7-3. Unlawful carrying of a firearm in licensed liquor establishments.
A. Unlawful carrying of a firearm in an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages consists of carrying a loaded or unloaded firearm on any premises licensed by the regulation and licensing department for the dispensing of alcoholic beverages except:
(1) by a law enforcement officer in the lawful discharge of his duties;
(2) by the owner, lessee, tenant or operator of the licensed premises or his agents, including privately employed security personnel during the performance of their duties;
(3) by a person in that area of the licensed premises usually and primarily rented on a daily or short-term basis for sleeping or residential occupancy, including hotel or motel rooms;
(4) by a person on that area of a licensed premises primarily utilized for vehicular traffic or parking; or
(5) for the purpose of temporary display, provided that the firearm is:
(a) made completely inoperative before it is carried onto the licensed premises and remains inoperative while it is on the licensed premises; and
(b) under the control of the licensee or an agent of the licensee while the firearm is on the licensed premises.
B. Whoever commits unlawful carrying of a firearm in an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages is guilty of a fourth degree felony"."
Link Posted: 6/28/2005 11:54:13 AM EDT
Some more NM law that might be of interest on this point:

NMSA 1978, § 60-3A-3(H) (2004) defines dispenser as “a person licensed under the provisions of the Liquor Control Act selling, offering for sale or having in his possession with the intent to sell alcoholic beverages both by the drink for consumption on the licensed premises and in unbroken packages for consumption and not for resale off the licensed premises." See State v. Montoya, 91 N.M. 262, 572 P.2d 1270 (Ct. App. 1977)(“dispenser” means by the drink or in packages under the old statute; old statute referred to any premises licensed for selling liquors).

NMSA 1978, § 60-3A-3 (M.) defines “licensed premises” as “the contiguous areas or areas connected by indoor passageways of a structure and the outside dining, recreation and lounge areas of the structure that are under the direct control of the licensee and from which the licensee is authorized to sell, serve or allow the consumption of alcoholic beverages under the provisions of its license; provided that in the case of a restaurant, including a restaurant that has operated continuously in two separate structures since July 1, 1987 and that is located in a local option district that has voted to disapprove the transfer of liquor licenses into that local option district, hotel, golf course or racetrack, ‘licensed premises’ includes all public and private rooms, facilities and areas in which alcoholic beverages are sold or served in the customary operating procedures of the restaurant, hotel, golf course or racetrack.”

Note that the sidewalk serving area of a sidewalk cafe that serves alcohol is off-limits for carry.
Link Posted: 6/28/2005 12:38:59 PM EDT
Thanks for the replies.

The definition of "dispense" is what I have issue with. From 60-3A-3:

H. "dispenser" means a person licensed under the provisions of the Liquor Control Act selling, offering for sale or having in his possession with the intent to sell alcoholic beverages both by the drink for consumption on the licensed premises and in unbroken packages for consumption and not for resale off the licensed premises;

This is in contrast to a retailer:

U. "retailer" means a person licensed under the provisions of the Liquor Control Act selling, offering for sale or having in his possession with the intent to sell alcoholic beverages in unbroken packages for consumption and not for resale off the licensed premises;

A convenience store or Walmart does not meet the definition of a dispenser, it meets the definition of a retailer. Selling is not synonymous with dispensing unless it is being sold by the drink for consumption on the premisis.

Link Posted: 6/28/2005 1:25:08 PM EDT
Here's the thing: Anyplace that sells alchohol, in any form is off-limits...like it or not.

That being said, do you really think everybody is "dis-robing" everytime they stop at the local Stop&Rob or WallyWorld??
Link Posted: 6/28/2005 1:30:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mcgrubbs:
Here's the thing: Anyplace that sells alchohol, in any form is off-limits...like it or not.




Sorry, I just don't see where that is supported in the language of the law.

357mag
Link Posted: 6/28/2005 1:35:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 357mag:

Originally Posted By mcgrubbs:
Here's the thing: Anyplace that sells alchohol, in any form is off-limits...like it or not.




Sorry, I just don't see where that is supported in the language of the law.

357mag



I understand your point....but LEOs probably won't. I'm not saying I disagree with you.
Link Posted: 6/28/2005 1:46:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mcgrubbs:

Originally Posted By 357mag:

Originally Posted By mcgrubbs:
Here's the thing: Anyplace that sells alchohol, in any form is off-limits...like it or not.




Sorry, I just don't see where that is supported in the language of the law.

357mag



I understand your point....but LEOs probably won't. I'm not saying I disagree with you.



I agree---LEOs wouldn't understand. They'd just arrest you and let you sort it out in the courts.

In discussing this with a CCW license holder, he said that the law was explained this way to him in his CCW class. He was told that carrying in any establishment where liquor is sold was a felony. Apparently the law is being explained this way to all CCW holders in their class. I believe that this is a misinterpretation of the law that is being asserted by those in charge of the CCW course curriculum. If so, someone, somehow needs to set them straight. Any volunteers?


357mag
Link Posted: 6/28/2005 6:06:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/28/2005 6:07:58 PM EDT by gont]
357mag
I agree---LEOs wouldn't understand. They'd just arrest you and let you sort it out in the courts.

In discussing this with a CCW license holder, he said that the law was explained this way to him in his CCW class. He was told that carrying in any establishment where liquor is sold was a felony. Apparently the law is being explained this way to all CCW holders in their class. I believe that this is a misinterpretation of the law that is being asserted by those in charge of the CCW course curriculum. If so, someone, somehow needs to set them straight. Any volunteers?
357mag

With an attitude toward police like yours you probably will get arrested. Most people on this board dont realize that most cops have very similar points of view to their own.


Link Posted: 6/29/2005 5:46:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gont:

With an attitude toward police like yours you probably will get arrested. Most people on this board dont realize that most cops have very similar points of view to their own.




Huh? I don't know how this came across but I did not intend to express any disrespect towards cops.
Care to explain?

357mag
Link Posted: 6/29/2005 7:20:33 AM EDT
357mag
"I agree---LEOs wouldn't understand. They'd just arrest you and let you sort it out in the courts."


The above statement does not sound very police friendly. If I took it the wrong way I withdraw my last statement.
Link Posted: 6/29/2005 8:08:08 AM EDT
gont, it wasn't meant to be police unfriendly.

If an officer discovered that I was CCWing in a convenience store where liquor is sold, I don't believe that the officer would be very receptive to discussing the merits of the law at that time. More than likely they would just arrest me and let me deal with it in court. No disrespect intended. If they believe that a felony has been committed I don't think they have much leeway in just letting it go.

I've had good experiences with law enforcement in NM--especially with the sheriffs dept in Dona Ana county where I reside.

357mag
Link Posted: 6/29/2005 10:18:58 AM EDT
I see your point and I apologize if I jumped to conclusions. I highly doubt your going to be searched for weapons and booked for buying a loaf of bread on the way home at 7-11. Now if your robbing the place, causing a disturbance or drunk you just may be in for a night in the jail.
Link Posted: 7/5/2005 11:05:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/5/2005 11:18:04 AM EDT by Erich]
Well, State v. Montoya, 91 N.M. 262, 572 P.2d 1270 (Ct. App. 1977), makes it pretty clear that, under the old statute (worded the same as the present statute) anyway, whether a place sold by the drink or in packages it was a "dispenser." The court specifically found that the "no guns in bars" law "does not refer to a particular type of license; it applies to 'any premises licensed' for dispensing; it is not limited to a 'dispenser's license'." 91 N.M. at 265. Thus, I teach that NM law prohibits carry anywhere alcoholic beverages are sold at retail.

This was what all the prosecutors in my office understood to be the law when I prosecuted years back. And, judging from the places in which the "It is a Fourth Degree Felony to have a Firearm (loaded or unloaded) here" signs pop up, NM ABC agrees with me (and those other prosecutors).

357 mag, I fear you're sort of missing the point by discussing the difference between a "retailer" and a "dispenser." The verb "to dispense" is what's at issue under 30-7-3, and the courts have looked to 60-3A-3(H) (or, rather, its predecessor) in interpreting what "dispense" means. The fact that other terms are also defined in 60-3A-3 turns out to be irrelevant.

My credentials for interpreting NM state law? I'm a lawyer who practices criminal law exclusively before the NM appellate courts (the courts that decide interpretations of the law) and has done so for over a decade.
Link Posted: 7/15/2005 5:52:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Erich:
Well, State v. Montoya, 91 N.M. 262, 572 P.2d 1270 (Ct. App. 1977), makes it pretty clear that, under the old statute (worded the same as the present statute) anyway, whether a place sold by the drink or in packages it was a "dispenser." The court specifically found that the "no guns in bars" law "does not refer to a particular type of license; it applies to 'any premises licensed' for dispensing; it is not limited to a 'dispenser's license'." 91 N.M. at 265. Thus, I teach that NM law prohibits carry anywhere alcoholic beverages are sold at retail.

This was what all the prosecutors in my office understood to be the law when I prosecuted years back. And, judging from the places in which the "It is a Fourth Degree Felony to have a Firearm (loaded or unloaded) here" signs pop up, NM ABC agrees with me (and those other prosecutors).

357 mag, I fear you're sort of missing the point by discussing the difference between a "retailer" and a "dispenser." The verb "to dispense" is what's at issue under 30-7-3, and the courts have looked to 60-3A-3(H) (or, rather, its predecessor) in interpreting what "dispense" means. The fact that other terms are also defined in 60-3A-3 turns out to be irrelevant.

My credentials for interpreting NM state law? I'm a lawyer who practices criminal law exclusively before the NM appellate courts (the courts that decide interpretations of the law) and has done so for over a decade.





Thanks Erich

I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

It is amazing that the legislature goes to the trouble to define what a dispenser and a retailer is and then those definitions are ignored or a previous definition is used. As someone who goes to some length to actually read the law and try to understand it I find this disconcerting. You can read something and the meaning of it is plain. However, at the whim of a judge's reinterpretation and the subsequent case law that is created, the definitions of the words have changed.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse, but do they give you points for trying?

357mag
Link Posted: 7/20/2005 9:14:29 AM EDT
I wish.
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 10:16:25 AM EDT
I know this is not NM I'm speaking of, but the law reads basically the same in TN. However, the AG issued an opinion that stores selling beer and wine (i.e., Stop&Rob, Wally World) were not covered by the letter of the law. Our bill to allow carry in establishments serving drinks was shot down recently, though. I thought the AG's opinion was awesome, and a good model for others.
Link Posted: 7/26/2005 8:12:27 AM EDT
That's interesting, but please do not anyone doubt that in NM you cannot legally carry anywhere that alcoholic beverages are sold at retail (whether in packages or by the drink).
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 8:23:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gont:
357mag
"I agree---LEOs wouldn't understand. They'd just arrest you and let you sort it out in the courts."

The above statement does not sound very police friendly. If I took it the wrong way I withdraw my last statement.



Well, that's they way it is in most urban jurisdictions in the USA. Guns == crime == bad. It's not anti-cop, it's anti-cop-attitude.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 8:23:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 8:25:47 PM EDT by fizassist]

Originally Posted By mcgrubbs:
do you really think everybody is "dis-robing" everytime they stop at the local Stop&Rob or WallyWorld??



I do, every time.

ETA: I saw someone with a PD ballcap (I didn't notice the dept) and a "lone wolf distributors" t-shirt at the grocery store in Pojoaque a few weeks ago. Anybody want to fess up?
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