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Posted: 6/7/2008 2:18:30 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/7/2008 2:18:30 AM EST by 82ndAbn]
I know full well what I'm stirring up here but I just wanted to see what kind of opinions we get.

I like the AR15 a lot and still think it's a great design, but more and more I'm coming to think that a .223 ak based weapon, or a sig 55x weapon, is my goto gun for shtf, and just superior overall when you take into account the critical factor of reliability (especially reliability in adverse conditions).

The ak and sig rifles are the only ones I know of (except galil, which is too heavy) that use the locking mag design. They are comparable in weight, ergonomics, and accuracy to the AR, but have one distinct advantage. Their mags never fail, and they never fail to feed/fail to cycle!

Exhibit A:

Check out this youtube vid. Here's a seemingly decently trained shooter with I'm sure a new, well maintained AR, and his weapon fails to feed at a critical moment due to the shitty mag locking design.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZvBptVNSOA

Compare that to this (I'm quoting from a thread on theakforum.net):


So a fellow member here found this buried in the mud....










I still think the AR is a great design, light, ergonomic, low recoil; but more and more I think that a .223 ak based rifle, or sig 55x, would be superior in terms of reliability, while not losing much in terms of handling/recoil. Cleaner running action too. For shtf, seems the best option. The mags on the AR are just too problematic. The ak/sig locking mag system really puts those models over the top as far as I'm concerned. Depending on how costly and high brow you want to get, the sig and the ak are your two best options IMO.

The new piston ARs definitely run cleaner/more reliable, and I guess the upgrade mags I hear about help.


Link Posted: 6/6/2008 3:09:56 PM EST
Yeah, the AR-15/M-16 would never work in a warzone.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 3:10:05 PM EST
The ergos on AK's are crap and the AK is not as accurate as an AR.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 3:19:36 PM EST

Originally Posted By WilsonCQB1911:
Yeah, the AR-15/M-16 would never work in a warzone.



what he said!
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 3:20:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/6/2008 3:21:26 PM EST by protus]
he failed walking around in the open like some COD4 hogans alley BS...real world rifle would have nothing to do with it..
well maybe
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 3:20:16 PM EST
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 3:34:06 PM EST
what about mag changes, safety, accuracy (BECAUSE of difference in Iron sights) Availability of ammo in a domestic shtf scenario. Compatability with friendly forces?

There are a ton of pros for the ar, and while i love aks, the main defence they fall back on is Its reliable and a peasant could use it. Well I am not a peasant and an ar has never failed with me at the wheel while my ak has several times.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 3:39:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/6/2008 3:41:13 PM EST by Specop_007]
Well, if I decide to plan for fantasy, dragons, unicorns and TEOTWAWKI then I'll be sure to not choose an AR.

Back here in this little place called "reality" though, the AR will do everything you need it to do. If you like to fantasize about single handedly being the victor of a gun battle a day for decades on end with no chance of resupply or even a pause to clean your weapon, yeah, you better not get an AR.

To each their own. I wont make fun of your choices of why you chose it, dont make fun of mine.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 3:39:31 PM EST
I think you need to buy what you feel comfortable with. I really don't care what that is. Just become proficient with it.

The mag catch on my AR's never fails. Why would it? I don't try and load more than 29 rounds in a mag that is tight with 30 and they go right in every time. Since I converted to P mags, this isn't even an issue. Add the perfect reliability for many thousands of rounds to the stunning accuracy, and you have a package that you can't even come close to beating.

If you don't like the platform, no sweat. There is no way we will talk you out of it so let us know how it turns out.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 3:42:56 PM EST
Yeah I posted this in three places. Ar15 survival forum. Ar-15 technical discussions. And theakforum.net survival discussions.

I kind of expected fellow arfcommers to be in favor of the ar15. All I'm saying is, in my experience, I've had a few mags fall out because they weren't put in all the way; or failure to feed because the mag is'nt shoved in far enough, etc etc. Or bolt didnt have enough umph going forward to fully seat the round and so you have to try and eject that round but OOPS! now you've got the round and another one stuck together in there....whereas with the ak you just slam the built in charging handle forward and rock and roll.

I think the 762 has a bit less accuracy and a bit more recoil, so what I'm leaning toward is one of the new more refined .223 aks for shtf.

YMMV
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 3:46:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
Well, if I decide to plan for fantasy, dragons, unicorns and TEOTWAWKI then I'll be sure to not choose an AR.

Back here in this little place called "reality" though, the AR will do everything you need it to do. If you like to fantasize about single handedly being the victor of a gun battle a day for decades on end with no chance of resupply or even a pause to clean your weapon, yeah, you better not get an AR.

To each their own. I wont make fun of your choices of why you chose it, dont make fun of mine.


Not making fun of anything, Ar definitely has it's strong suits. More accurate, lighter, better ergo, easier to put on good optics. Lots of positives. But It just keeps bugging me though what a weak point the AR mag design is, and that's why I'm shying away from it for SHTF speculation/purposes purposes. There have been many a perfectly cleaned, maintained AR that all of sudden had a mag malfunction, whether it was caused by the user or not. Scares me.

Depends on personal preference, of course, which lightsabre you choose.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 3:48:03 PM EST

Originally Posted By batmanacw:
I think you need to buy what you feel comfortable with. I really don't care what that is. Just become proficient with it.

The mag catch on my AR's never fails. Why would it? I don't try and load more than 29 rounds in a mag that is tight with 30 and they go right in every time. Since I converted to P mags, this isn't even an issue. Add the perfect reliability for many thousands of rounds to the stunning accuracy, and you have a package that you can't even come close to beating.

If you don't like the platform, no sweat. There is no way we will talk you out of it so let us know how it turns out.


Not trying to be talked out of anything. The ar is definitely in the SHTF toolbox. But so is the AK 223 after some of my recent research/experiences.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 3:59:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By mike_r:

Originally Posted By batmanacw:
I think you need to buy what you feel comfortable with. I really don't care what that is. Just become proficient with it.

The mag catch on my AR's never fails. Why would it? I don't try and load more than 29 rounds in a mag that is tight with 30 and they go right in every time. Since I converted to P mags, this isn't even an issue. Add the perfect reliability for many thousands of rounds to the stunning accuracy, and you have a package that you can't even come close to beating.

If you don't like the platform, no sweat. There is no way we will talk you out of it so let us know how it turns out.


Not trying to be talked out of anything. The ar is definitely in the SHTF toolbox. But so is the AK 223 after some of my recent research/experiences.


buy an AK in a mans caliber,,you 90lb when wet fairys need to learn how to cotrol recoil not strap maxipads to buttstcoks then cry that it bounces to much....


AR's SUCK!
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:07:12 PM EST
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:09:03 PM EST
It is not my experience that AKs "never fail to feed/fail to cycle." Quite the opposite in fact.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:10:01 PM EST
I'm stealing this line from someone... can't remember who he is exactly, some kind of war or weapons historian... anyway he was quoted as saying:

"If I was going to an Alien world and could only take 2 weapons with me, it would be an AK and a Glock because they are reliable, and nearly indestructable" blah blah blah

... something to that effect...

All I know is that you can sit here and talk about MOA and all that jazz... but in a true and I mean TRUE ... guts, grease, muck, water, gunk, crap and stuff... situation like that... the last thing I want to think about is cleaning my gun... I'll take my AK hands down before my AR ... Id rather have it function period through thick and thin than be able to shoot 1" groupings at (enter your yards here)... A man size target at 200 yards is a man size target at 200 yards.

Camm
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:28:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By protus:

Originally Posted By mike_r:

Originally Posted By batmanacw:
I think you need to buy what you feel comfortable with. I really don't care what that is. Just become proficient with it.

The mag catch on my AR's never fails. Why would it? I don't try and load more than 29 rounds in a mag that is tight with 30 and they go right in every time. Since I converted to P mags, this isn't even an issue. Add the perfect reliability for many thousands of rounds to the stunning accuracy, and you have a package that you can't even come close to beating.

If you don't like the platform, no sweat. There is no way we will talk you out of it so let us know how it turns out.


Not trying to be talked out of anything. The ar is definitely in the SHTF toolbox. But so is the AK 223 after some of my recent research/experiences.


buy an AK in a mans caliber,,you 90lb when wet fairys need to learn how to cotrol recoil not strap maxipads to buttstcoks then cry that it bounces to much....


AR's SUCK!


Yeah.....i like the 762 as well but it doesnt have the same velocity or accuracy obviously, and therefore in some cases less wound potential.

It's good to have a mix. But if I had to choose in a pinch I'd go with .223 ak not 762. Nah nah nah nah nah!
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:28:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By mike_r:
I know full well what I'm stirring up here but I just wanted to see what kind of opinions we get.

Bla...bla...bla..




Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:33:14 PM EST
so you point is?
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:36:29 PM EST
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:48:59 PM EST
I have a hk 93 to back up my dpms sass
is that not good enough?
all my action will be in the us not sand flee countrys and my hero's seem to be getting it done with ar's oversea's
I just got on the ar bandwagon a few years ago, if you would have posted this 20 years ago I would agree, I was all about h&k s the need for more rail space sent me looking in a new direction, now I'm hearing I f ed up
na
someone tell me [its all good]




Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:49:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By Forest:
Since the OP is spamming forums with his infomercial


THis is about all I got out of this post. nothing more, nothing less.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:53:43 PM EST
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:58:58 PM EST
one anecdotal experience of an ar jamming and an ak shooting muddy mag's is insufficient to make a determination of the poor quality of an ar or the good quality of an ak. i'd guess 99% of the people on this board understand the ar isn't perfect, and they understand the exact thing w/ the ak. each has it's pros and cons. whatever you shoot learn how it works, how to shoot it well and how to fix it if it's broke. the best shtf rifle is the one you can do all three things w/.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 5:01:44 PM EST
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 5:08:26 PM EST

Originally Posted By mike_r:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
Well, if I decide to plan for fantasy, dragons, unicorns and TEOTWAWKI then I'll be sure to not choose an AR.

Back here in this little place called "reality" though, the AR will do everything you need it to do. If you like to fantasize about single handedly being the victor of a gun battle a day for decades on end with no chance of resupply or even a pause to clean your weapon, yeah, you better not get an AR.

To each their own. I wont make fun of your choices of why you chose it, dont make fun of mine.


Not making fun of anything, Ar definitely has it's strong suits. More accurate, lighter, better ergo, easier to put on good optics. Lots of positives. But It just keeps bugging me though what a weak point the AR mag design is, and that's why I'm shying away from it for SHTF speculation/purposes purposes. There have been many a perfectly cleaned, maintained AR that all of sudden had a mag malfunction, whether it was caused by the user or not. Scares me.

Depends on personal preference, of course, which lightsabre you choose.


Ironically, I too have had mag problems. First time it really happened was on a timed course. I think doing timed courses helps with mag problems.

Point being, ANY firearm can have problems. Each firearm carries with it certain desirable traits. I would have to say the most dead nuts reliable semi auto rifle I have ever owned was an SKS. It just RUNS.

But as you say, to each their own. I certainly wont make fun of anyone who buys a gun for defensive purposes. Quite the opposite, I congratulate them. Good to see them have their head screwed on straight.

Now that doesnt mean they didnt fuck up by buying something other then an AR, but thats another story.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 5:34:57 PM EST
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 5:37:29 PM EST
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 5:43:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/6/2008 5:44:24 PM EST by wvar15]

Originally Posted By dalesimpson:
Personally I can't imagine why anybody would not have both.


That's the way I feel also, but I love guns of all kinds. One thing to think about if you choose the AK for your SHTF rifle is how AKs are viewed by many. AK equals bad guy for a lot of people. The range I go to has a 3 round rule for semi autos. I have shot 30 round mags with the ranger there and he has never said a word; however, we took a guy with an AK while the rest of us had ARs, and the ranger singled him out and gave him an ass chewing. He ignored everyone else. Just something to think about.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 5:46:34 PM EST
I have both 3 ar`s and an ak , but I would never let any of my rifles or mags or ammo look like THAT!!!!
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 5:47:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/6/2008 5:48:14 PM EST by yekimak]

Originally Posted By dalesimpson:
Personally I can't imagine why anybody would not have both.


A most sensible response to this thread.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 6:07:22 PM EST
The local sheriff's office just bought a couple dozen AR15's for trunk guns. Boy are they going to be mad when they find out they bought unreliable junk. I think it is kinda funny that some people just "know" the AR15 is unreliable. Wonder why the US military and US civilian law enforcement SWAT "don't" use the AK series of weapons if they are so superior to the M16/AR15 rifles? I guess we can imagine the answer to that question.

RS
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 6:23:22 PM EST
Watching that video I had flashbacks to my old Half Life days


Possible operator error on the "jam".

And of course I have both ARs & AKs, just to be sure I have all the bases covered.
FB
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 6:24:39 PM EST
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 6:38:02 PM EST
I have a Sig 556. It uses the same magazines as an AR-15/M-16.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 7:05:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/6/2008 7:07:37 PM EST by Avalon01]

Originally Posted By mike_r:
Their mags never fail, and they never fail to feed/fail to cycle!


I watched one fail at a tactical training.

So did a few AR's and a FAL.


ALL weapons CAN fail. Shit happens.

Av.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 8:03:20 PM EST
taurus sucks
but this thread is a close second

Link Posted: 6/6/2008 8:21:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/6/2008 8:24:24 PM EST by Hawk_308]
Ok I have a mag full of rust wolf ammo I have been saving just for this debate with a friend . Im leaving for nashville this week end on business but when I get back Ill load that mag in my home built AR and discharge every round and Ill video tape it ........ Im pretty sure it isnt going to jam but I might be wrong . If Im wrong Ill admit the AK is better for shooting rusty wolf ammo if Im right we can move on and stop having this debate till next week. When what it REALLY Boils down to is have a weapon that works in your conditions that you are able to put on target when it counts . Some one can easily take me out with a musket it they know how to use it because its only going to need to fire once as far as my life is concerned .

ETA : the mag has been in my truck door for a little over a year being rained on quite a few times if your wondering why I have rusty wolf ammo in a mag . Ill try to get a pic up before I leave town.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 8:25:32 PM EST
I might have a lemon, but I can't shoot more than 1 mag through my AK without it jamming at least once, if not up to 3 times. Meanwhile I have a Colt sporter that I got back in '94 that I still haven't figured out how to make jam yet.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 8:35:45 PM EST

Originally Posted By Hawk_308:
Ok I have a mag full of rust wolf ammo I have been saving just for this debate with a friend . Im leaving for nashville this week end on business but when I get back Ill load that mag in my home built AR and discharge every round and Ill video tape it ........ Im pretty sure it isnt going to jam but I might be wrong . If Im wrong Ill admit the AK is better for shooting rusty wolf ammo if Im right we can move on and stop having this debate till next week. When what it REALLY Boils down to is have a weapon that works in your conditions that you are able to put on target when it counts . Some one can easily take me out with a musket it they know how to use it because its only going to need to fire once as far as my life is concerned .

ETA : the mag has been in my truck door for a little over a year being rained on quite a few times if your wondering why I have rusty wolf ammo in a mag . Ill try to get a pic up before I leave town.


LOL Now that's a response!
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 8:49:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/6/2008 8:55:14 PM EST by olwen]

Originally Posted By mike_r:


I kind of expected fellow arfcommers to be in favor of the ar15. All I'm saying is, in my experience, I've had a few mags fall out because they weren't put in all the way;


reads like -operator error-


or failure to feed because the mag is'nt shoved in far enough, etc etc.

reads like -operator error-


Or bolt didnt have enough umph going forward to fully seat the round and so you have to try and eject that round but OOPS! now you've got the round and another one stuck together in there


reads like, again -operator error-

sounds like you need to spend less time on the interweb and more time practicing proper gun handling/ reloading skills.

]
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 9:33:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/6/2008 9:35:32 PM EST by mike_r]

Originally Posted By olwen:

Originally Posted By mike_r:


I kind of expected fellow arfcommers to be in favor of the ar15. All I'm saying is, in my experience, I've had a few mags fall out because they weren't put in all the way;


reads like -operator error-


or failure to feed because the mag is'nt shoved in far enough, etc etc.

reads like -operator error-


Or bolt didnt have enough umph going forward to fully seat the round and so you have to try and eject that round but OOPS! now you've got the round and another one stuck together in there


reads like, again -operator error-

sounds like you need to spend less time on the interweb and more time practicing proper gun handling/ reloading skills.

]


Yes, Buehler, I know all of the problems I mentioned are due to me not operating it properly. Which goes back to my earlier point about the AR being a great weapon and just as reliable as practically any ak (and a lot more accurate, etc etc) IF you use it properly and are trained to do so EVERY time. But for an untrained peasant like myself who at this stage of my hobby evolution is more interested in collecting than shooting, if I had to, and hope I never have to, take any rifle into battle, maybe I WOULD be better off with an ak, because gosh darnit, all things being equal, I suck with AR mags. Me and AR mags just dont get along at my current level of training. But I've never had any problems with Ak mags because they are designed to be idiot proof.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 10:33:08 PM EST
It doen't matter what style. If you just have one SHTF rifle, you will eventually be left with just SHTF.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 10:51:58 PM EST
I fucking hate all of you
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 11:46:26 PM EST

Originally Posted By mike_r:
Yeah I posted this in three places. Ar15 survival forum. Ar-15 technical discussions. And theakforum.net survival discussions.


Sounds like a self-admitted troll to me.
Link Posted: 6/7/2008 12:30:52 AM EST
Wow, For a minute there I thought I must have clicked the GD button and not survival.

This thread needs a LOCK now.
Link Posted: 6/7/2008 1:16:32 AM EST
KIFARU SUCKS
Link Posted: 6/7/2008 2:25:14 AM EST
IMO, a 16" carbine AR is ideal. Light and accurate, point of aim-point of impact from 0 to 200 yards, right about when velocity drops to loose fragmentation. Accurate out to 500 yards with practice. Properly maintained, it's perfectly reliable. PMAGs have pretty much taken care of the AR mag weakness IMO.

Don't get me wrong - I love the AK platform also. I just grew tired of the minute-of-torso accuracy.

Link Posted: 6/7/2008 2:26:37 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/7/2008 2:32:49 AM EST by Stonerriflefan44]
In the little youtube video link,he's using an AR15/M4 rifle. At a minute twenty five seconds. The operator tries to draw side arm,doesn't clear the holster and shakes it free?Ghey. Trolling failed

ETA

Guys using a Bushmaster Carbon 15.

USGI mags wont rust. Follower is poly/plastic it wont rust. Silicone springs won't niether. +1 for AR -1 for AK
Link Posted: 6/7/2008 2:27:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By WilsonCQB1911:
Yeah, the AR-15/M-16 would never work in a warzone.





Yup.

Opinions are like assholes...

Everyone has one...

And they're shit...



(Well, at least he's not trying to convince me how perfect the MP5N is.....)

CPO SWCC US Navy (Retired)
Link Posted: 6/7/2008 2:32:02 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/7/2008 2:50:32 AM EST by Rob877]

Originally Posted By mike_r:

Exhibit A:

Check out this youtube vid. Here's a seemingly decently trained shooter with I'm sure a new, well maintained AR, and his weapon fails to feed at a critical moment due to the shitty mag locking design.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZvBptVNSOA





That Rifle in the video Looks like a Carbon 15 and The Pro Ordnance Carbon 15 models Had Issues.
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