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Posted: 4/17/2016 6:19:04 PM EDT
I almost dropped a wheel on my self once because I didn't know
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 6:22:08 PM EDT
They do? In for this answer also
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 6:23:04 PM EDT
Because they are idiots.

Maybe at "some point" they were masters in automotive engineering -- but now they are just morons.

Example: I've driven my brothers BMW F30 (3 series) with "electric" steering.  It sucks! goes light all the time and for a "sports car" has little feel to it. So BMW spent countless dollars in building an electric steering system that "copies" a rack and pinion system but is endlessly less reliable, costs much more, has untold amounts of issues and on top of that; they spent another fortune adding servos to make it feel more real.

Then my brother gets into my HONDA S2000 and tells me the steering is, for a lack of better words; perfect.  I tell him that I know. And its flawless.

Now Google BMW electric steering problems -- there are like a million hits.

German engineering -- yeah, maybe in 1978.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 6:23:40 PM EDT
because they can





P.S. how many faggotree beemer owners work on their own shit?
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 6:24:26 PM EDT
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Quoted:
because they can





P.S. how many faggotree beemer owners work on their own shit?
View Quote

We pay people for that bullshit.  
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 6:27:35 PM EDT
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Quoted:

We pay people for that bullshit.  
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Quoted:
Quoted:
because they can





P.S. how many faggotree beemer owners work on their own shit?

We pay people for that bullshit.  


You mean OVERPAY people for it. Trust me, if you go to a BMW service dealer; you ARE being raped.  AND they laugh at you once you leave.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 6:28:03 PM EDT
Because German.



Seriously.




Talk to a German engineer sometime and question their design.




If you can't understand the 'why' behind the design, it is because you are too stupid to understand their faultless German engineering.


















Link Posted: 4/17/2016 6:29:30 PM EDT
Because its one part that does the same job as 2 American parts.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 6:31:11 PM EDT
All Germans do that

I had an Audi A4 that did.

I know every car I have ever worked on that was german had it.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 6:31:33 PM EDT
Cause
BMW = Bavarian Manure Wagon
BMW = Bullshit Motor Works
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 6:34:02 PM EDT
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Quoted:
All Germans do that

I had an Audi A4 that did.

I know every car I have ever worked on that was german had it.  
View Quote


I learned about Germans using wheel bolts on old VW Beetles back in the 1960s.  Haven't been impressed with this bit of design philosophy in all the years since then.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 6:34:45 PM EDT
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Quoted:
Because its one part that does the same job as 2 American parts.
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Because snapping a bolt or doing something to damage the hub makes fixing it more difficult/expensive than pressing out the old stud and putting in a new one?
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 6:35:28 PM EDT
American cars used to use bolts.
Along with left hand threads on one side.
Supposedly a stronger design, but overkill and unnecessary.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 6:37:00 PM EDT
Virtually everyone who tracks their BMW switches from bolts to studs. I have no idea what the reason for BMW and MB's thinking other than "Germans".
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 6:38:05 PM EDT
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Quoted:


I learned about Germans using wheel bolts on old VW Beetles back in the 1960s.  Haven't been impressed with this bit of design philosophy in all the years since then.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
All Germans do that

I had an Audi A4 that did.

I know every car I have ever worked on that was german had it.  


I learned about Germans using wheel bolts on old VW Beetles back in the 1960s.  Haven't been impressed with this bit of design philosophy in all the years since then.


It isn't just the Germans, Volvo is the same, starting to wonder if all European cars are like that.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 6:38:32 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 6:41:59 PM EDT
Rims instead of hubcaps.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 6:43:06 PM EDT

Quoted:


I almost dropped a wheel on my self once because I didn't know
View Quote
wouldn't you have known after taking out the 1st bolt?

 
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 6:44:37 PM EDT
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Quoted:
Because they are idiots.
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Bolts as a fastener for things like cylinder heads and wheels are inferior. There is a twisting force placed on the bolts shaft when torque is applied to tighten. Studs & Nut's don't experience this, twisting force, making a stud and nut combo made from the same steel with the same threading and shaft diameter able to provide a higher clamping force before stretching. What happens when you over torque a bolt, either the threads are stripped out and you must drill out the hole, thread and install a heli-coil, or the head of the bolt is wrung off which tends to equal a lot of cursing and no clamping force. If you over torque a stud & nut combo, it still has clamping force and hasn't broken. If it has stretched beyond a give point, it's holding strength will be seriously diminished, but you aren't....screwed.


Personally I use a deflection type torque wrench (AKA beam style) when installing lug nuts, and tighten in a criss cross pattern. A impact wrench in the hands of an idiot is also a good way to end up in the need of pulling a wheel hub and replacing a wheel stud.

ETA: Stud solutions tend to cost more, so the only thing I can see is it's lowering the cost of manufacture to use bolts.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 6:47:55 PM EDT

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Quoted:


Because its one part that does the same job as 2 American parts.
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Which works great up until the point you want to change a wheel quickly, so they get converted, and some of the P cars come with bolts and spacers, brilliant. The conversion then requires you to add another tool so you can take the Hex head stud on and off

 
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 6:49:14 PM EDT
A buddy of mine has an Audi with a hydraulic cooling fan and a liquid cooled alternator. Engineers seemed to look for ways to overcomplicate that thing.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 6:49:44 PM EDT
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Quoted:
because they can





P.S. how many faggotree beemer owners work on their own shit?
View Quote


Hi.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 6:52:02 PM EDT
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Quoted:
Because German.

Seriously.


Talk to a German engineer sometime and question their design.


If you can't understand the 'why' behind the design, it is because you are too stupid to understand their faultless German engineering.












View Quote


here is your answer, also for some reason lots of European cars have really soft metal

save for volvo's car bodys, thats some rigid stuff
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 6:52:13 PM EDT
Oh look, another thread where people hate on people with more money who spend it however they want.





DU is the site you're looking for.


 



ETA: Not @ OP. Some of the other posters in this thread..
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 6:52:16 PM EDT
I took the winter tires off my wife's VW yesterday, and cursed the damn German engineers who used those fucking bolts.
Of course I curse them every time I take the tires off the damn thing.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 6:54:27 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
A buddy of mine has an Audi with a hydraulic cooling fan and a liquid cooled alternator. Engineers seemed to look for ways to overcomplicate that thing.
View Quote


Wow, those seem like really horrible ideas to me, it's like asking for more points of failure.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 6:56:05 PM EDT
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Quoted:
A buddy of mine has an Audi with a hydraulic cooling fan and a liquid cooled alternator. Engineers seemed to look for ways to overcomplicate that thing.
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more like find ways to band-aid there lazy engineering.

engine over heating? use more coolant!
oil starvation? make it hold 8 liters of oil!
harsh vibration? make everything like a sponge!
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 6:56:45 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Bolts as a fastener for things like cylinder heads and wheels are inferior. There is a twisting force placed on the bolts shaft when torque is applied to tighten. Studs & Nut's don't experience this, twisting force, making a stud and nut combo made from the same steel with the same threading and shaft diameter able to provide a higher clamping force before stretching. What happens when you over torque a bolt, either the threads are stripped out and you must drill out the hole, thread and install a heli-coil, or the head of the bolt is wrung off which tends to equal a lot of cursing and no clamping force. If you over torque a stud & nut combo, it still has clamping force and hasn't broken. If it has stretched beyond a give point, it's holding strength will be seriously diminished, but you aren't....screwed.


Personally I use a deflection type torque wrench (AKA beam style) when installing lug nuts, and tighten in a criss cross pattern. A impact wrench in the hands of an idiot is also a good way to end up in the need of pulling a wheel hub and replacing a wheel stud.

ETA: Stud solutions tend to cost more, so the only thing I can see is it's lowering the cost of manufacture to use bolts.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Because they are idiots.



Bolts as a fastener for things like cylinder heads and wheels are inferior. There is a twisting force placed on the bolts shaft when torque is applied to tighten. Studs & Nut's don't experience this, twisting force, making a stud and nut combo made from the same steel with the same threading and shaft diameter able to provide a higher clamping force before stretching. What happens when you over torque a bolt, either the threads are stripped out and you must drill out the hole, thread and install a heli-coil, or the head of the bolt is wrung off which tends to equal a lot of cursing and no clamping force. If you over torque a stud & nut combo, it still has clamping force and hasn't broken. If it has stretched beyond a give point, it's holding strength will be seriously diminished, but you aren't....screwed.


Personally I use a deflection type torque wrench (AKA beam style) when installing lug nuts, and tighten in a criss cross pattern. A impact wrench in the hands of an idiot is also a good way to end up in the need of pulling a wheel hub and replacing a wheel stud.

ETA: Stud solutions tend to cost more, so the only thing I can see is it's lowering the cost of manufacture to use bolts.
it only had to last until the warranty runs out,after that, they don't care.

Kharn


Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 6:57:06 PM EDT
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Quoted:


Wow, those seem like really horrible ideas to me, it's like asking for more points of failure.
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View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
A buddy of mine has an Audi with a hydraulic cooling fan and a liquid cooled alternator. Engineers seemed to look for ways to overcomplicate that thing.


Wow, those seem like really horrible ideas to me, it's like asking for more points of failure.


I agree. Toyota ran the cooling fan hydraulically using the power steering in the 90's on the Camry and Avalon. P/S goes out, so does your cooling system.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 6:57:50 PM EDT
Lotta angry fuckers in this thread.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 7:02:13 PM EDT


Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Oh look, another thread where people hate on people with more money who spend it however they want.





DU is the site you're looking for.


 





ETA: Not @ OP. Some of the other posters in this thread..


View Quote





 
This is GD, what did you expect?  Its the place where people who live in basements are more successful in their own minds than the people who've paid off their houses and drive cars with wheel bolts.


 
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 7:03:39 PM EDT
I see so its not a logical decision.
A stud you can knock out and press a new one in. Strip the hub and you replace the hub.....
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 7:04:13 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Wow, those seem like really horrible ideas to me, it's like asking for more points of failure.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
A buddy of mine has an Audi with a hydraulic cooling fan and a liquid cooled alternator. Engineers seemed to look for ways to overcomplicate that thing.


Wow, those seem like really horrible ideas to me, it's like asking for more points of failure.



 Want to know why no sane  man would buy a 15 year old Audi Allroad?
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 7:06:15 PM EDT
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Quoted:
Oh look, another thread where people hate on people with more money who spend it however they want.

DU is the site you're looking for.
 

ETA: Not @ OP. Some of the other posters in this thread..
View Quote


This thread is about shitty engineering, not overpaying for shitty engineering.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 7:06:33 PM EDT
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Quoted:


Hi.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
because they can





P.S. how many faggotree beemer owners work on their own shit?


Hi.


Another Hi.
I've driven an M3 daily for 13 years. I've taken it to a mechanic ZERO times. It is well maintained. By me. Take your fagotree, Truckin, and stuff it.

Link Posted: 4/17/2016 7:06:59 PM EDT
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Quoted:
I see so its not a logical decision.
A stud you can knock out and press a new one in. Strip the hub and you replace the hub.....
View Quote


Oh I would think it's a very logical one, just not in the customers favor. It's a small corner they can cut to lower production cost that they figure the owners wont notice, sense as it was pointed out earlier, the vast majority of their owners don't do their own maintenance. The small number that does, is likely such a small percentage of total sales, they couldn't care less.

ETA: Also it might be possible to bore out the stripped hole, thread and install a helicoil, which would allow you to still use the factory bolts. Maybe not THAT bolt, but a OEM replacement. No idea since I haven't ever looked at one up close.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 7:07:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 7:07:19 PM EDT
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Quoted:
Lotta angry fuckers in this thread.
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im a tech, and i hate any time i have to touch german monstrosities, they are just crazy

bmw's with v10s take a really strange and expensive oil, 10W-60... strange stuff, some of them dont have dip sticks, they have a danm sensor that can go bad, it sits on the bottom of the pan and mid west snow salt destroys the wiring quickly

when i think geman cars i think tiger tank. just nonsense.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 7:07:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 7:08:17 PM EDT
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Quoted:


You mean OVERPAY people for it. Trust me, if you go to a BMW service dealer; you ARE being raped.  AND they laugh at you once you leave.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
because they can





P.S. how many faggotree beemer owners work on their own shit?

We pay people for that bullshit.  


You mean OVERPAY people for it. Trust me, if you go to a BMW service dealer; you ARE being raped.  AND they laugh at you once you leave.

How is that any different than any other auto brand dealership?
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 7:10:57 PM EDT
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Quoted:
Virtually everyone who tracks their BMW switches from bolts to studs. I have no idea what the reason for BMW and MB's thinking other than "Germans".
View Quote


Well at this point it's clear that the Germans have a penchant for doing really stupid shit for inane reasons, and to then keep on doing it despite the consequences.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 7:15:37 PM EDT
Quoted:
I almost dropped a wheel on my self once because I didn't know
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No you didn't. Unless you're ridiculously stupid and...no, you couldn't be that dumb. There is no way you could 'drop a wheel on yourself' before realizing your BMW uses bolts instead of studs.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 7:18:58 PM EDT
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Quoted:
Because they are idiots.

Maybe at "some point" they were masters in automotive engineering -- but now they are just morons.

Example: I've driven my brothers BMW F30 (3 series) with "electric" steering.  It sucks! goes light all the time and for a "sports car" has little feel to it. So BMW spent countless dollars in building an electric steering system that "copies" a rack and pinion system but is endlessly less reliable, costs much more, has untold amounts of issues and on top of that; they spent another fortune adding servos to make it feel more real.

Then my brother gets into my HONDA S2000 and tells me the steering is, for a lack of better words; perfect.  I tell him that I know. And its flawless.

Now Google BMW electric steering problems -- there are like a million hits.


German engineering -- yeah, maybe in 1978.
View Quote

The lowest, slowest model still makes more torque than your s2000. If you are going to compare the s2000 steering at least compare it to a 1m, m2 or m3/m4.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 7:19:04 PM EDT
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Quoted:
wouldn't you have known after taking out the 1st bolt?  
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I almost dropped a wheel on my self once because I didn't know
wouldn't you have known after taking out the 1st bolt?  


My first thought too.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 7:19:09 PM EDT
I have never really understood it myself, I once looked under the hood of a Saab.

The only thing I can think of is that it somehow benefits the initial manufacturing process or some politician owns a bolt factory.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 7:19:10 PM EDT
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Quoted:


No you didn't. Unless you're ridiculously stupid and...no, you couldn't be that dumb. There is no way you could 'drop a wheel on yourself' before realizing your BMW uses bolts instead of studs.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I almost dropped a wheel on my self once because I didn't know


No you didn't. Unless you're ridiculously stupid and...no, you couldn't be that dumb. There is no way you could 'drop a wheel on yourself' before realizing your BMW uses bolts instead of studs.

I was 17 and helping in a garage. I removed all but one. When I zipped the last one off the wheel tilted and came off the boss on the hub. Had I had my hand on the wheel it would have been fine
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 7:19:11 PM EDT
If you have ever broken a stud and had to replace a load of parts to get the wheel on and safe, you would understand.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 7:35:39 PM EDT
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Quoted:
If you have ever broken a stud and had to replace a load of parts to get the wheel on and safe, you would understand.
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If you have ever done this to a wheel stud, you or the previous person to tighten the nut on it was a complete fucking moron. It's not an issue if you don't grab a 130+ ft/lb impact and just go to town on it like a damn idiot. However if you do it, yes a bolt so long as the shaft is still there to grab on to with some vice grips is easier to just twist out and replace.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 7:36:18 PM EDT
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Quoted:


Another Hi.
I've driven an M3 daily for 13 years. I've taken it to a mechanic ZERO times. It is well maintained. By me. Take your fagotree, Truckin, and stuff it.

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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
because they can





P.S. how many faggotree beemer owners work on their own shit?


Hi.


Another Hi.
I've driven an M3 daily for 13 years. I've taken it to a mechanic ZERO times. It is well maintained. By me. Take your fagotree, Truckin, and stuff it.



Hello here, too.

Been driving them for 9 years, and the only time I've taken mine in is to have the air conditioning properly topped off.

Mine have been no more unreliable than any other car I've driven in the past 28 years I've been driving.  And no more expensive or difficult for me to work on.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 7:37:14 PM EDT
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Quoted:

The lowest, slowest model still makes more torque than your s2000. If you are going to compare the s2000 steering at least compare it to a 1m, m2 or m3/m4.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Because they are idiots.

Maybe at "some point" they were masters in automotive engineering -- but now they are just morons.

Example: I've driven my brothers BMW F30 (3 series) with "electric" steering.  It sucks! goes light all the time and for a "sports car" has little feel to it. So BMW spent countless dollars in building an electric steering system that "copies" a rack and pinion system but is endlessly less reliable, costs much more, has untold amounts of issues and on top of that; they spent another fortune adding servos to make it feel more real.

Then my brother gets into my HONDA S2000 and tells me the steering is, for a lack of better words; perfect.  I tell him that I know. And its flawless.

Now Google BMW electric steering problems -- there are like a million hits.


German engineering -- yeah, maybe in 1978.

The lowest, slowest model still makes more torque than your s2000. If you are going to compare the s2000 steering at least compare it to a 1m, m2 or m3/m4.



Oh... you want to "compare" engineering, lets talk about engines:   S2000 Engine:

The F20C was designed with high maximum rpm capability in mind, for increased power output; redline is at 8800 rpm, with VTEC engagement at 6000 rpm. Its relatively long stroke of 84mm results in a mean piston speed of 4965 ft/m, or 25 m/s, second highest than any other production car to date.[4] It is only beaten by the B7 Audi RS4 (2006-2008). Power output is 240 bhp (179 kW) at 8300 rpm in North America and Europe. The Japanese version, which has a higher compression ratio, is capable of 250 PS (247 bhp) at 8600 rpm. Honda's F20C Engine won a spot on Wards' 10 Best Engines List four times, in 2000, 2001, 2002 and 2003.


The first-generation Honda S2000 debuted in 1999 with an 8,800 RPM redline and a 9,000 RPM fuel cut-out. That engine set a high standard for naturally-aspirated engines, developing 240 horsepower from 2.0 liters (120hp/L). Of course, Honda didn't just beat Ferrari; Honda beat itself to the 9,000 RPM road car by over 30 years. Their S500 roadster debuted in 1963 and redlined at 9,500. It had a 0.5 liter motorcycle engine. The S500's successors, the S600 and S800 both redlined over 9 and started to cut fuel in the five digits, as well.

Nice try Ferrari, but you can't slip one past Honda


THEN BMW "tried" their hand at Variable Cam Timing and came up with the absolute failure that VANOS system is.  Once again trying to overcomplicate a perfect, HONDA invented system.  BMW failed. Try looking up VANOS recalls.  
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 7:47:48 PM EDT

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Quoted:


because they can
P.S. how many faggotree beemer owners work on their own shit?
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Your ignorance.  Its showing.



 
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