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Posted: 4/17/2016 6:22:08 PM EDT
[#1]
They do? In for this answer also
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Posted: 4/17/2016 6:23:04 PM EDT
[#2]
Because they are idiots.
Maybe at "some point" they were masters in automotive engineering -- but now they are just morons. Example: I've driven my brothers BMW F30 (3 series) with "electric" steering. It sucks! goes light all the time and for a "sports car" has little feel to it. So BMW spent countless dollars in building an electric steering system that "copies" a rack and pinion system but is endlessly less reliable, costs much more, has untold amounts of issues and on top of that; they spent another fortune adding servos to make it feel more real. Then my brother gets into my HONDA S2000 and tells me the steering is, for a lack of better words; perfect. I tell him that I know. And its flawless. Now Google BMW electric steering problems -- there are like a million hits. 
German engineering -- yeah, maybe in 1978. 
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Posted: 4/17/2016 6:23:40 PM EDT
[#3]
because they can
P.S. how many faggotree beemer owners work on their own shit? |
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Posted: 4/17/2016 6:24:26 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
because they can P.S. how many faggotree beemer owners work on their own shit? We pay people for that bullshit. 
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Posted: 4/17/2016 6:27:35 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We pay people for that bullshit. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
because they can P.S. how many faggotree beemer owners work on their own shit? We pay people for that bullshit. You mean OVERPAY people for it. Trust me, if you go to a BMW service dealer; you ARE being raped. AND they laugh at you once you leave. |
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Posted: 4/17/2016 6:28:03 PM EDT
[#6]
Because German.
Seriously. Talk to a German engineer sometime and question their design. If you can't understand the 'why' behind the design, it is because you are too stupid to understand their faultless German engineering.  |
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Posted: 4/17/2016 6:29:30 PM EDT
[#7]
Because its one part that does the same job as 2 American parts.
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Posted: 4/17/2016 6:31:11 PM EDT
[#8]
All Germans do that
I had an Audi A4 that did. I know every car I have ever worked on that was german had it. |
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Posted: 4/17/2016 6:31:33 PM EDT
[#9]
Cause
BMW = Bavarian Manure Wagon BMW = Bullshit Motor Works |
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Posted: 4/17/2016 6:34:02 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
All Germans do that I had an Audi A4 that did. I know every car I have ever worked on that was german had it. I learned about Germans using wheel bolts on old VW Beetles back in the 1960s. Haven't been impressed with this bit of design philosophy in all the years since then. |
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Posted: 4/17/2016 6:34:45 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because its one part that does the same job as 2 American parts. Because snapping a bolt or doing something to damage the hub makes fixing it more difficult/expensive than pressing out the old stud and putting in a new one? |
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Posted: 4/17/2016 6:35:28 PM EDT
[#12]
American cars used to use bolts.
Along with left hand threads on one side. Supposedly a stronger design, but overkill and unnecessary. |
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Posted: 4/17/2016 6:37:00 PM EDT
[#13]
Virtually everyone who tracks their BMW switches from bolts to studs. I have no idea what the reason for BMW and MB's thinking other than "Germans".
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Posted: 4/17/2016 6:38:05 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I learned about Germans using wheel bolts on old VW Beetles back in the 1960s. Haven't been impressed with this bit of design philosophy in all the years since then. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
All Germans do that I had an Audi A4 that did. I know every car I have ever worked on that was german had it. I learned about Germans using wheel bolts on old VW Beetles back in the 1960s. Haven't been impressed with this bit of design philosophy in all the years since then. It isn't just the Germans, Volvo is the same, starting to wonder if all European cars are like that. |
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Posted: 4/17/2016 6:38:32 PM EDT
[#15]
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Posted: 4/17/2016 6:41:59 PM EDT
[#16]
Rims instead of hubcaps.
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Posted: 4/17/2016 6:43:06 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: I almost dropped a wheel on my self once because I didn't know  |
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Posted: 4/17/2016 6:44:37 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because they are idiots. Bolts as a fastener for things like cylinder heads and wheels are inferior. There is a twisting force placed on the bolts shaft when torque is applied to tighten. Studs & Nut's don't experience this, twisting force, making a stud and nut combo made from the same steel with the same threading and shaft diameter able to provide a higher clamping force before stretching. What happens when you over torque a bolt, either the threads are stripped out and you must drill out the hole, thread and install a heli-coil, or the head of the bolt is wrung off which tends to equal a lot of cursing and no clamping force. If you over torque a stud & nut combo, it still has clamping force and hasn't broken. If it has stretched beyond a give point, it's holding strength will be seriously diminished, but you aren't....screwed. Personally I use a deflection type torque wrench (AKA beam style) when installing lug nuts, and tighten in a criss cross pattern. A impact wrench in the hands of an idiot is also a good way to end up in the need of pulling a wheel hub and replacing a wheel stud. ETA: Stud solutions tend to cost more, so the only thing I can see is it's lowering the cost of manufacture to use bolts. |
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Posted: 4/17/2016 6:47:55 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because its one part that does the same job as 2 American parts.  |
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Posted: 4/17/2016 6:49:14 PM EDT
[#20]
A buddy of mine has an Audi with a hydraulic cooling fan and a liquid cooled alternator. Engineers seemed to look for ways to overcomplicate that thing.
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Posted: 4/17/2016 6:49:44 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
because they can P.S. how many faggotree beemer owners work on their own shit? Hi. |
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Posted: 4/17/2016 6:52:02 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because German. Seriously. Talk to a German engineer sometime and question their design. If you can't understand the 'why' behind the design, it is because you are too stupid to understand their faultless German engineering.
here is your answer, also for some reason lots of European cars have really soft metal save for volvo's car bodys, thats some rigid stuff |
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Posted: 4/17/2016 6:52:13 PM EDT
[#23]
Oh look, another thread where people hate on people with more money who spend it however they want.
DU is the site you're looking for. ETA: Not @ OP. Some of the other posters in this thread.. |
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Posted: 4/17/2016 6:52:16 PM EDT
[#24]
I took the winter tires off my wife's VW yesterday, and cursed the damn German engineers who used those fucking bolts.
Of course I curse them every time I take the tires off the damn thing. |
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Posted: 4/17/2016 6:54:27 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A buddy of mine has an Audi with a hydraulic cooling fan and a liquid cooled alternator. Engineers seemed to look for ways to overcomplicate that thing. Wow, those seem like really horrible ideas to me, it's like asking for more points of failure. |
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Posted: 4/17/2016 6:56:05 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A buddy of mine has an Audi with a hydraulic cooling fan and a liquid cooled alternator. Engineers seemed to look for ways to overcomplicate that thing. more like find ways to band-aid there lazy engineering. engine over heating? use more coolant! oil starvation? make it hold 8 liters of oil! harsh vibration? make everything like a sponge! |
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Posted: 4/17/2016 6:56:45 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Bolts as a fastener for things like cylinder heads and wheels are inferior. There is a twisting force placed on the bolts shaft when torque is applied to tighten. Studs & Nut's don't experience this, twisting force, making a stud and nut combo made from the same steel with the same threading and shaft diameter able to provide a higher clamping force before stretching. What happens when you over torque a bolt, either the threads are stripped out and you must drill out the hole, thread and install a heli-coil, or the head of the bolt is wrung off which tends to equal a lot of cursing and no clamping force. If you over torque a stud & nut combo, it still has clamping force and hasn't broken. If it has stretched beyond a give point, it's holding strength will be seriously diminished, but you aren't....screwed. Personally I use a deflection type torque wrench (AKA beam style) when installing lug nuts, and tighten in a criss cross pattern. A impact wrench in the hands of an idiot is also a good way to end up in the need of pulling a wheel hub and replacing a wheel stud. ETA: Stud solutions tend to cost more, so the only thing I can see is it's lowering the cost of manufacture to use bolts. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Because they are idiots. Bolts as a fastener for things like cylinder heads and wheels are inferior. There is a twisting force placed on the bolts shaft when torque is applied to tighten. Studs & Nut's don't experience this, twisting force, making a stud and nut combo made from the same steel with the same threading and shaft diameter able to provide a higher clamping force before stretching. What happens when you over torque a bolt, either the threads are stripped out and you must drill out the hole, thread and install a heli-coil, or the head of the bolt is wrung off which tends to equal a lot of cursing and no clamping force. If you over torque a stud & nut combo, it still has clamping force and hasn't broken. If it has stretched beyond a give point, it's holding strength will be seriously diminished, but you aren't....screwed. Personally I use a deflection type torque wrench (AKA beam style) when installing lug nuts, and tighten in a criss cross pattern. A impact wrench in the hands of an idiot is also a good way to end up in the need of pulling a wheel hub and replacing a wheel stud. ETA: Stud solutions tend to cost more, so the only thing I can see is it's lowering the cost of manufacture to use bolts. Kharn Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 4/17/2016 6:57:06 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wow, those seem like really horrible ideas to me, it's like asking for more points of failure. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
A buddy of mine has an Audi with a hydraulic cooling fan and a liquid cooled alternator. Engineers seemed to look for ways to overcomplicate that thing. Wow, those seem like really horrible ideas to me, it's like asking for more points of failure. I agree. Toyota ran the cooling fan hydraulically using the power steering in the 90's on the Camry and Avalon. P/S goes out, so does your cooling system. |
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Posted: 4/17/2016 6:57:50 PM EDT
[#29]
Lotta angry fuckers in this thread.
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Posted: 4/17/2016 7:02:13 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oh look, another thread where people hate on people with more money who spend it however they want. DU is the site you're looking for. ETA: Not @ OP. Some of the other posters in this thread.. This is GD, what did you expect? Its the place where people who live in basements are more successful in their own minds than the people who've paid off their houses and drive cars with wheel bolts. |
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Posted: 4/17/2016 7:03:39 PM EDT
[#31]
I see so its not a logical decision.
A stud you can knock out and press a new one in. Strip the hub and you replace the hub..... |
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Posted: 4/17/2016 7:04:13 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wow, those seem like really horrible ideas to me, it's like asking for more points of failure. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
A buddy of mine has an Audi with a hydraulic cooling fan and a liquid cooled alternator. Engineers seemed to look for ways to overcomplicate that thing. Wow, those seem like really horrible ideas to me, it's like asking for more points of failure. Want to know why no sane man would buy a 15 year old Audi Allroad? |
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Posted: 4/17/2016 7:06:15 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Oh look, another thread where people hate on people with more money who spend it however they want. DU is the site you're looking for.
ETA: Not @ OP. Some of the other posters in this thread.. This thread is about shitty engineering, not overpaying for shitty engineering. |
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Posted: 4/17/2016 7:06:33 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hi. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
because they can P.S. how many faggotree beemer owners work on their own shit? Hi. Another Hi. I've driven an M3 daily for 13 years. I've taken it to a mechanic ZERO times. It is well maintained. By me. Take your fagotree, Truckin, and stuff it. |
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Posted: 4/17/2016 7:06:59 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I see so its not a logical decision. A stud you can knock out and press a new one in. Strip the hub and you replace the hub..... Oh I would think it's a very logical one, just not in the customers favor. It's a small corner they can cut to lower production cost that they figure the owners wont notice, sense as it was pointed out earlier, the vast majority of their owners don't do their own maintenance. The small number that does, is likely such a small percentage of total sales, they couldn't care less. ETA: Also it might be possible to bore out the stripped hole, thread and install a helicoil, which would allow you to still use the factory bolts. Maybe not THAT bolt, but a OEM replacement. No idea since I haven't ever looked at one up close. |
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Posted: 4/17/2016 7:07:00 PM EDT
[#36]
It isn't just BMW, and it surely isn't a new thing.
Lots of European cars in the sixties through the eighties had wheel lug bolts instead of studs. VW, BMW, Fiat, Alfa Romeo, Yugo and others all had them. I can't say they were good or bad, they seemed to do a good job of holding the wheels on, for what that is worth. |
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Posted: 4/17/2016 7:07:19 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lotta angry fuckers in this thread. im a tech, and i hate any time i have to touch german monstrosities, they are just crazy bmw's with v10s take a really strange and expensive oil, 10W-60... strange stuff, some of them dont have dip sticks, they have a danm sensor that can go bad, it sits on the bottom of the pan and mid west snow salt destroys the wiring quickly when i think geman cars i think tiger tank. just nonsense. |
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Posted: 4/17/2016 7:07:49 PM EDT
[#38]
Because Germans are fucking idiots. I swear every god damn German made vehicle is so over engineered it's not funny, I mean some of them if the cup holder light is broke the fucking thing won't start or run right
I have never seen a German made car come in our garage, and leave for anything simple, even changing their oil is fucking complicated
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Posted: 4/17/2016 7:08:17 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You mean OVERPAY people for it. Trust me, if you go to a BMW service dealer; you ARE being raped. AND they laugh at you once you leave. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
because they can P.S. how many faggotree beemer owners work on their own shit? We pay people for that bullshit. You mean OVERPAY people for it. Trust me, if you go to a BMW service dealer; you ARE being raped. AND they laugh at you once you leave. How is that any different than any other auto brand dealership? |
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Posted: 4/17/2016 7:10:57 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Virtually everyone who tracks their BMW switches from bolts to studs. I have no idea what the reason for BMW and MB's thinking other than "Germans". Well at this point it's clear that the Germans have a penchant for doing really stupid shit for inane reasons, and to then keep on doing it despite the consequences. |
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Posted: 4/17/2016 7:15:37 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
I almost dropped a wheel on my self once because I didn't know No you didn't. Unless you're ridiculously stupid and...no, you couldn't be that dumb. There is no way you could 'drop a wheel on yourself' before realizing your BMW uses bolts instead of studs. |
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Posted: 4/17/2016 7:18:58 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because they are idiots. Maybe at "some point" they were masters in automotive engineering -- but now they are just morons. Example: I've driven my brothers BMW F30 (3 series) with "electric" steering. It sucks! goes light all the time and for a "sports car" has little feel to it. So BMW spent countless dollars in building an electric steering system that "copies" a rack and pinion system but is endlessly less reliable, costs much more, has untold amounts of issues and on top of that; they spent another fortune adding servos to make it feel more real. Then my brother gets into my HONDA S2000 and tells me the steering is, for a lack of better words; perfect. I tell him that I know. And its flawless. Now Google BMW electric steering problems -- there are like a million hits.
German engineering -- yeah, maybe in 1978. The lowest, slowest model still makes more torque than your s2000. If you are going to compare the s2000 steering at least compare it to a 1m, m2 or m3/m4. |
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Posted: 4/17/2016 7:19:04 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
wouldn't you have known after taking out the 1st bolt? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I almost dropped a wheel on my self once because I didn't know My first thought too. |
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Posted: 4/17/2016 7:19:09 PM EDT
[#44]
I have never really understood it myself, I once looked under the hood of a Saab.
The only thing I can think of is that it somehow benefits the initial manufacturing process or some politician owns a bolt factory. 
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Posted: 4/17/2016 7:19:10 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No you didn't. Unless you're ridiculously stupid and...no, you couldn't be that dumb. There is no way you could 'drop a wheel on yourself' before realizing your BMW uses bolts instead of studs. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I almost dropped a wheel on my self once because I didn't know No you didn't. Unless you're ridiculously stupid and...no, you couldn't be that dumb. There is no way you could 'drop a wheel on yourself' before realizing your BMW uses bolts instead of studs. I was 17 and helping in a garage. I removed all but one. When I zipped the last one off the wheel tilted and came off the boss on the hub. Had I had my hand on the wheel it would have been fine |
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Posted: 4/17/2016 7:19:11 PM EDT
[#46]
If you have ever broken a stud and had to replace a load of parts to get the wheel on and safe, you would understand.
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Posted: 4/17/2016 7:35:39 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you have ever broken a stud and had to replace a load of parts to get the wheel on and safe, you would understand. If you have ever done this to a wheel stud, you or the previous person to tighten the nut on it was a complete fucking moron. It's not an issue if you don't grab a 130+ ft/lb impact and just go to town on it like a damn idiot. However if you do it, yes a bolt so long as the shaft is still there to grab on to with some vice grips is easier to just twist out and replace. |
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Posted: 4/17/2016 7:36:18 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Another Hi. I've driven an M3 daily for 13 years. I've taken it to a mechanic ZERO times. It is well maintained. By me. Take your fagotree, Truckin, and stuff it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
because they can P.S. how many faggotree beemer owners work on their own shit? Hi. Another Hi. I've driven an M3 daily for 13 years. I've taken it to a mechanic ZERO times. It is well maintained. By me. Take your fagotree, Truckin, and stuff it. Hello here, too. Been driving them for 9 years, and the only time I've taken mine in is to have the air conditioning properly topped off. Mine have been no more unreliable than any other car I've driven in the past 28 years I've been driving. And no more expensive or difficult for me to work on. |
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Posted: 4/17/2016 7:37:14 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The lowest, slowest model still makes more torque than your s2000. If you are going to compare the s2000 steering at least compare it to a 1m, m2 or m3/m4. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Because they are idiots. Maybe at "some point" they were masters in automotive engineering -- but now they are just morons. Example: I've driven my brothers BMW F30 (3 series) with "electric" steering. It sucks! goes light all the time and for a "sports car" has little feel to it. So BMW spent countless dollars in building an electric steering system that "copies" a rack and pinion system but is endlessly less reliable, costs much more, has untold amounts of issues and on top of that; they spent another fortune adding servos to make it feel more real. Then my brother gets into my HONDA S2000 and tells me the steering is, for a lack of better words; perfect. I tell him that I know. And its flawless. Now Google BMW electric steering problems -- there are like a million hits.
German engineering -- yeah, maybe in 1978. The lowest, slowest model still makes more torque than your s2000. If you are going to compare the s2000 steering at least compare it to a 1m, m2 or m3/m4. Oh... you want to "compare" engineering, lets talk about engines: S2000 Engine: The F20C was designed with high maximum rpm capability in mind, for increased power output; redline is at 8800 rpm, with VTEC engagement at 6000 rpm. Its relatively long stroke of 84mm results in a mean piston speed of 4965 ft/m, or 25 m/s, second highest than any other production car to date.[4] It is only beaten by the B7 Audi RS4 (2006-2008). Power output is 240 bhp (179 kW) at 8300 rpm in North America and Europe. The Japanese version, which has a higher compression ratio, is capable of 250 PS (247 bhp) at 8600 rpm. Honda's F20C Engine won a spot on Wards' 10 Best Engines List four times, in 2000, 2001, 2002 and 2003. The first-generation Honda S2000 debuted in 1999 with an 8,800 RPM redline and a 9,000 RPM fuel cut-out. That engine set a high standard for naturally-aspirated engines, developing 240 horsepower from 2.0 liters (120hp/L). Of course, Honda didn't just beat Ferrari; Honda beat itself to the 9,000 RPM road car by over 30 years. Their S500 roadster debuted in 1963 and redlined at 9,500. It had a 0.5 liter motorcycle engine. The S500's successors, the S600 and S800 both redlined over 9 and started to cut fuel in the five digits, as well.
Nice try Ferrari, but you can't slip one past Honda THEN BMW "tried" their hand at Variable Cam Timing and came up with the absolute failure that VANOS system is. Once again trying to overcomplicate a perfect, HONDA invented system. BMW failed. Try looking up VANOS recalls.
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Posted: 4/17/2016 7:47:48 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: because they can P.S. how many faggotree beemer owners work on their own shit? Your ignorance. Its showing. |
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